I just re-read Bill Andersons story in the July Self Starter.
If the club is going to embrace resto-mods and chopped, slammed and Donk wheeled Cadillacs
and lower judging standards for them at the Grand Nationals then that is not preserving the Marque.
I know many young people who like stock classics. So if this thinking is to get new, young members
then this is a big mistake.
The best thing about a GN is you are parked amongst classics, not cruise night low riders.
They have their own clubs.
And I guess I'll have to find a new one.
Are they trying to "grow" the business?
I can't imagine the "resto-mods and chopped, slammed and Donk wheeled Cadillacs" crowd would want to hang with a bunch of predominantly "older" folks at GN...........
chris.
The best advice I can give here would be that if you have any concerns on the matter would be to contact Bill Anderson directly or your regional VP. Any time I've emailed Bill for something, I've always received a reply and the same goes for the VP's.
The club officers always try to do what's best for the club. If members don't speak up about the direction, we can only assume no news is good news and that they're doing the right thing. Feedback from the membership is crucial in any policy change.
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on July 15, 2015, 09:05:26 AM
If members don't speak up about the direction, we can only assume no news is good news and that they're doing the right thing. Feedback from the membership is crucial in any policy change.
Exactly. And the first thing I looked for was a way to write an editorial comment in the Self Starter. There is none.
That is what I like about Hemmings classic Car magazine. Plenty of opportunity to write a published comment. The only outlet we have here at the CLC
to post a public comment is here. The CLC Facebook page is littered with resto-mod and custom photos so no sympathy from those who frequent there unfortunately.
Im relatively new to the club but what brought me here is that this is a classic club. Keeping the car as close as it can be to factory. Im not totally in favor to heavy modded cars but I think they should be on their own. Different judging apart from the classics. Just my opinion.
The clubs old policy did not prohibit ownership or display at meets, but they were subject to the same judging rules as everyone else.
So non factory changes were deductions. This pretty much discouraged them.
This new policy is like inviting ants to a picnic.
Quote from: David Smith on July 15, 2015, 09:10:42 AM
Exactly. And the first thing I looked for was a way to write an editorial comment in the Self Starter. There is none.
That is what I like about Hemmings classic Car magazine. Plenty of opportunity to write a published comment. The only outlet we have here at the CLC
to post a public comment is here. The CLC Facebook page is littered with resto-mod and custom photos so no sympathy from those who frequent there unfortunately.
I've seen letters to the editor before. Send an email to Steve Stewart. His contact information is usually in there.
I just turned 28 on July 7, and my younger brother is 25. Our mutual dear friend with a similar love for Cadillacs is 26. We all prefer bone-stock factory-spec restorations, and even more so: unrestored, preserved originals.
I believe as time goes on, more young people will appreciate these cars for what they can be when properly saved and shown: the closest thing we have to time machines. They are history on wheels. This club's emphasis on posterity is what drew me to it.
We can't all afford to make the cars we find and save 100% perfect, concours or factory correct: but doing our best to follow what the original designers and engineers is important to their legacy, even if they are works-in-progress, or if we have to part with the cars after saving them, to people who can afford to do them properly. I'm not dumping on the work and talent/artistry that goes into to some of these non-stock creations, especially on cars that are very far gone. Just bringing the fact that there are intelligent, enthusiastic young people out there that prefer, love and *live for* original cars!
Just wanted you to know that this matters to some young people out there! We don't all enjoy customs and modified / rodded vehicles. Any preserved or original vehicle is extremely appealing to me, Cadillac or not. There's something truly special about letting this class of car transport you to another era.
We all live in Nova Scotia, and I wish we were closer and more central to the bulk of this club's activiry and members. We are attempting to be a beacon up here where most shows we attend are saturated with modified, "restored" vehicles whose owner's attention to detail or preservation of original design / specifications seem to be near totally lacking. The few originals (unrestored or restored), we see are rare gems indeed. Even some of the owners of those original unrestored cars openly APOLOGIZE to us about the condition of the vehicles, making it a point to tell my young friends and I that they soon plan to modify or restore it / hot rod it. Maybe in an effort to seem "cool?" They are shocked when we tell them "for god's sake don't touch it!" Someone has to carry a torch to remedy this. Shouldn't the CLC be doing their part?
David,
I completely sympathize and agree with your sentiments. The difficultly lies in the many coachbuilt Cadillacs that had been produced throughout the years. From a Murphy bodied V 12 of the 30s to a late 1970s H & E Convertible or Sedan deVille with a 3" stretch - such cars - technically - all fall under the modified category and the lines between "modified" and "correct" become extremely difficult to establish by any objective definition.
In any case, I wouldn't fret too much about it as cars falling into this category have specific judging criteria that has been designed including whether modifications are period appropriate, tastefully done and the quality of workmanship.
Thanks.
I can see the merits of both arguments - being inclusive and being exclusive. What the correct answer is, I don't know.
When it was first proposed that the CLC accept "modified" Cadillacs about 15 years ago, I wrote a letter to The Self-Starter opposing this modification (pun??) of the club's objectives. In my letter, which appeared in the September 2000 issue, I cited the CLC constitution, policies and judging standards, all of which stated in one way or another that modifying a Cadillac "are not within the original objectives" of the club. I went on to say there are a number of clubs which cater to modifiers, "but the rest of us....should follow our club's philosophy on this subject and leave the street rodders to pursue their own interests".
However, my opinion was met with disdain. In a subsequent issue of the SS, a letter from a supporter of modified Cadillacs dismissed my viewpoint rather vociferously and since it seemed that his opinion was shared by the powers-to-be in the club, I said no more. A cursory reading of the CLC constitution, by-laws, etc. in my 2015 International Directory seems to indicate that they have been changed since 2000 to reflect an acceptance of modified Cadillacs. I would therefore caution those among us who do not believe in "street-rodded" Cadillacs that you risk being vilified as a "purist" and that, in any case, the decision has already been made.
Yesterday I painted the correct curved dip stick tube because I learned the straight one on my car was not correct and today I am searching for the correct hose clamps and exhaust hangers.
Next task is to reinstall the wiring harness that I removed to install the correct firewall pad.
I assume you can tell my position on this matter by reading the comments above.
Also I have a friend who purchased a highly modified 1942 fastback with a modern interior and running gear including AC, power disc brakes, power windows and seats etc, but from 10 feet away it looks bone stock. Someone put $80K into it and my friend bought it for $20K. He would have preferred stock but this is what he could afford. He will not join the club because he feels he would not be welcome.
It's a double-edged sword Gary.
There are things I would have to do to my car to do better in class judging in the CLC and AACA, but I refuse to do it because
1. It's an unrestored survivor
2. Doing so would hurt its preservation
3. I like it that way
On the other side of the coin, I've seen some nice cars, such as your friend's car that I wouldn't mind looking at or even have in my garage.
There was a discussion I was involved in last week on this very topic. It would seem at first glance that we would be somewhat elitist we would exclude them, but then I looked into my own camp.
I just started a 53 sedan over the weekend. If I can ever get past the rust issues, while trying to make it a nice car, I do intend to drive it. Part of driving it and enjoying it for me would be adding a/c. In doing so, to keep a "somewhat" factory appearance under the hood, I have an A5 compressor from my 61 parts car that I would incorporate into the system, use some original looking wiring (cloth covered modern wiring) for the compressor, and tuck away a vintage air system in the trunk. The car will still have bias ply tires, be the original colour, with the interior done correctly. The a/c would throw me out of class judging at a GN, but I would still like to show up with it. Not participating would be a kick in the pants because I made one modification.
Since EVERYTHING needs to be done on this car, I figured what would be the harm in taking one liberty?
Like I say, I don't know what the correct answer should be, but I'm somewhat leaning towards the decision being ok.
My $0.02... There is certainly a place for modified cars in the world of "car collecting, old cars, restorations, street rods, hot rods, etc." However, there are only 2 acceptable options (in my opinion) when it comes to a Marquee club: Maintained original or Restored. The idea behind my opinion is that we are the historian/preservationists of the brand. That said, there are countless cars that are too far gone to return to either of these categories. Those should be the candidates for the modified designation. Now, my opinion gets a little fuzzy with reversible, non-visible or otherwise non-destructive modifications and safety modifications. I likely will switch my taillights to a brake/blinker combo and add directional to the front of the car. No one knows hand signals anymore and they're probably too busy texting to notice them anyway. I will probably also stick with sealed beams or, if I switch back to reflectors, I will likely convert to LEDs. And when I restore my radio, I will likely add in an audio input jack to support an external audio player (by the time I'm done, mp3s will be like todays records). I've also considered putting a junkyard engine in it just so I can drive it. However, the end goal is, was and always will be to restore my '38 to as near original as possible.
The problem with excluding anyone who differs in their opinion is that we risk losing the influence that comes from consensus. If I suggest that I am going to change my bone stock whatever to low profile 22" billet rims and 50 people here scream at me that I'm an a$$, I would probably consider other options. In addition, anything restored to non-original (in every way) condition would be modified. Powder coating and water based acrylic are 2 examples. Plastic parts cast out of heat, cold, and UV stable 2-part urethane resin instead of Bakelite are another example. Even using stainless fasteners instead of raw steel is a modification, but one I wouldn't hesitate to make in my marine/snow environment. So, I would say a highly modified 1942 fastback that externally looks bone stock (and, more importantly, it's owner) would be a great addition to the club. If nothing else, we could get another member who has the interest in the brand to become addicted to the brand.
Quote from: Jay Friedman on July 15, 2015, 11:54:11 AM
I would therefore caution those among us who do not believe in "street-rodded" Cadillacs that you risk being vilified as a "purist"
Purist? I'll wear that label proudly.
I'm not talking about hair splitting details like improvements, such as dual master cylinders or clear coat paint vs. lacquer.
I'm talking about these guys who take perfectly good cars and turn them into side shows. Pimp my ride, Gas monkey garage, Kounts Kustoms and the like.
Nor am I talking about Derham tops on 40s and 50s limousines. Or other one-off Motorama or Cadillac styling studio cars like the 1961 Eldorado owned by Nadeem K.
Those have a rightful place in the club for preservation. They are part of Cadillacs history.
I for one would like to see the judging criteria/judging sheet before I make up my mind on the matter.
Really, what is the issue? Most, MOST, people can't afford to restore or even purchase one of your very fine cars. Most of you won't even drive one if you own it - might get dusty or something, or worse, someone might even touch it. When you die it will most likely go to a museum because your family members won't even know how to use it, and when the museum tires of it, or changes focus, it will be sold to someone not necessarily having your desire to preserve it.
I listened to your very good opinions over the last 10 years and restored my 1937 Cadillac V-12 Touring Sedan. I invested $97,000 in doing so because the car is one of 87 built that year, and one of the 450 V-12 engines of its type built during 1934 through 1937. In fact, we only know of five of these 1937 8519's still around.
I have listed this car for sale on the CLC and other places and have yet to receive one interested phone call. Asking price of $97,000 to high? NADA shows it valued at $67,000. Everything is original other than the headlights being chromed, and the dash chromed, and a better looking set of wheels, and a pair of more efficient carbs. I still have the original headlights and wheels to put back on.
The point of this discussion is this: Everywhere I go people ask me if they could use the car in their wedding. They love it as it is. It won first place in the Modified section of the CLC's Potomac Region Club. People always ask if they can take pictures of the car and then I always say to them "give me your camera and let me take a photo of you standing by it or sitting in the car". This how you can truly share your work of art with others- and every nut and bolt does not have to be "original".
I have used this car for free in 7 family weddings and will use it in one last family wedding next July 16, 2016. and then I will sell the car. This weekend I used it in a first paid wedding event for $1,000 where three more people asked for my phone number for their future weddings. On the way home I stopped at a car show for a few hours and two more people asked if they could use the car in their weddings.
It appears to me that people are far more interested in actually using, touching, and riding in an antique car rather than just looking at them in a grassy field. That is why I invested so much into this car. I wanted to enjoy it, use it and share it with others who truly enjoy cars of the 1930's and the Art Deco of 1925 - 1940.
I know, to each his own, but believe me, not everyone gives a hoot if you have used a correct nut and bolt under the hood or everywhere on your car at such great expense. Loosen up, modified cars can also be works of art as others have mentioned - or can that only be in your opinion depending on which wealthy person requested one-off models back then. You have included the modified chapter because of the great amount of interest, and there is no longer a growing mass of "old people" like me since 1958 who care only for original cars. The Modified Chapter was added so that the CLC will not die - and I'm glad to have met some of them along the way.
Ty Stinson
Ty. Well said. Your car and Geoff Newcombe's car are two that come to mind in this topic. Both fantastic cars. There is a place for them in the club I say.
As I thought, the disdain is beginning.
All I can say is that a number of stock Cadillacs of a certain age were driven to the Grand National in Wisconsin last month. For example, I drove my totally stock '49 (well, I confess to an FM radio under the dash and seat belts for safety) 820 miles from my home in Georgia, and another '49 owner came several hundred miles from Ontario. And there were others, too. Yes, of course, there were trailer queens too; most of those I saw were classics of the teens, 20s and 30s.
The primary mission of the CLC as "the recognition and promotion of Cadillac & La Salle automobiles to the highest levels of authenticity as originally manufactured" remains unchanged.
The inclusion of a judged modified class is not about to result in modified cars being displayed (and judged) among stock original cars. In fact, such a scenario would have been more likely under the old system when modified cars could be registered in the appropriate class(es), subject to deductions for deviation from as-manufactured original.
The modified class simply provides another category enabling owners to participate in competitive judging which had previously been unavailable to them.
I might also point out that parallel situation exists when - some years back - the AACA instituted a new "street rod" class, the association deeming street rods' rightful place in American car popular culture. To date, I am unaware of any deleterious effects it has had on the AACA, its membership, participation or the quality of cars displayed at AACA events. If this serves as any example, it is difficult to envision the CLC any the worse for making a similar decision.
So long as membership remains respectful to one another, promoting social fellowship and camaraderie uppermost - as in the best traditions of any association, there is little reason to fear for the future of the CLC or its mission.
Just take a look at the CLC Facebook page and you'll see the wild customs and donk'd out cars being posted there. And not just by members but by the moderators!
That is the type of stuff I don't want to see in the next Self Starter magazine, let alone the show field at a CLC event.
This is where the downfall has begun.
Here are two examples of posts by the moderators of the CLC Facebook page . Oh the humanity!
2 of our cars are considered modified We have a 1987 station wagon It was ordered and sold through a Cadillac dealer The other is a Hess and Eisenhart 1984 Eldorado convertible w/ touring suspension When they were entered in GN the judges slammed them So next GN I just displayed the station wagon I am curious to see how they would be judged under the new system At the last GN I attended in Boston I saw Mirages, and the 70's -80's modified models w/ the fake side mounts judged with the others They are certainly modified JeRita
Mods are ok in my book as long as they don't compete on a field with the originals. But what constitutes "original"? Are the period-correct Appliance aluminum wheels I'm putting on my 78 Eldorado, which may as well have been delivered new as a dealer add-on, considered a "mod"? When you see the 76 EFI 8.2 under the hood in place of the carbureted 7.0 is that considered a "mod"? It's not a simple question so don't expect simple answers.
Bill
As Bill says, it is not a simple answer.
My understanding of the judging criteria is that the Touring, Primary. and Senior divisions are not changing in order to "accept" modified cars, with some extremely limited exceptions, like the coach-built classics from known builders. The deductions for modifications and away from authenticity remain, and would be so many that a modified car could not possibly realistically compete in those classes. In fact, the guidelines are becoming even more restrictive and detailed, to the point that it will be very difficult for "authentic" cars to be able to progress to the highest levels (wreath and crown). Modifieds will be in their own separate class, and not mixed in with the other cars. Of course, this all depends on how an owner completes the registration form, but that is a problem even now, as I saw many cars in Milwaukee registered in Primary classes that had no business there, and should have been in Touring.
The guidelines for "judging" modifieds have not even been discussed yet. It would be incumbent upon them to participate in the process, but that has not yet occurred.
So, as yet, there is no need to get too uptight about the club being "taken over" by slammed & bagged boulevard cruisers.
And, BTW, there is an address to write Letters to the Editor to the Self-Starter. You just have to look for it, but just about every issue has them, so any talk about "closed ears" is based on incorrect assumptions.
Jim
I drove my '72 Eldorado to the 2008 GN in Cherry Hill, and parked it in the line-up of cars for 1972.
Yes, I purchased it in 2007, but didn't get my hands on it till June 2008, but had already entered it into the GN in 2007.
Nobody complained about the '68 Wheel Trims that were on it, or the non-original tan Convertible Top, or the ratty interior or rust spots, or the bad paint job. But, then, I didn't want it judged, and was really happy to be able to drive MY Cadillac to a GN in USA.
Now the car has a custom Continental Kit, home made, Western Cyclone II Aluminium wheels, not quite so ratty upholstery, and still bad paint, but it drives beautifully, now with its' totally rebuilt 500, higher compression and bigger valves, oh, and a Predator Carby.
Judging is for those people that want to be judged, and mine would never compete, as it would lose so many points with all the changes, but, I am proud of the stone-chipped paint work, as it gets driven at every opportunity, and the last drive was two weeks on the mainland, and just under 2000 Kilometres in sunshine, rain, and even on dirt roads. In 2012, I even did a bit of flood-fording to continue to my destination.
Bruce. >:D
In my opinion, modifications fall into two categories........1, just enough to make the car usable and then, modified.
For Example, I put seatbelts in my car because I drive it with my kids. I also have a better radio. It has a/c (it's a 70) but if it was older I would add it because we are in St. Louis. But that's really it. It still looks like a 70.
Then there are the modifications that try to make it not look like a 70-- Those are the mods I am not fond of.
As far as the magazine, If I want to see modified cars, I'd look somewhere else. I didn't join the modified Hoopdie club.
And by the way, it breaks my heart to see a heavily modified car. They just shouldn't be that way.
This is my opinion..... My wife will probably tell me my opinion is wrong :) :)
Jeff
Quote from: JerRita on July 15, 2015, 08:58:40 PM
2 of our cars are considered modified We have a 1987 station wagon It was ordered and sold through a Cadillac dealer The other is a Hess and Eisenhart 1984 Eldorado convertible w/ touring suspension When they were entered in GN the judges slammed them So next GN I just displayed the station wagon I am curious to see how they would be judged under the new system At the last GN I attended in Boston I saw Mirages, and the 70's -80's modified models w/ the fake side mounts judged with the others They are certainly modified JeRita
Cars like your wagon may be considered modified, but those were done when the car was new and for a new car buyer who wanted something special. No different than a wealthy client having Derham or H&E alter a new car. The Mirage pick ups are so factory looking they were sold thru many dealers.
Those kind of customs when done new are part of the Marques heritage.
Taking an old classic and chopping it, bagging it, shaving all the chrome and door handles and emblems off does not do the Marque or the club anything positive.
I will see what the new rules state about modifieds As you said both of my cars were sold by dealers and ordered from a dealer
I really don't think that most people have a problem with factory authorized custom models. I was honored to own one of the '56 Cadillac wagons from Hess and Eisenhardt, and two of the beautiful '56 Derham limousines. These vehicles were sanctioned by Cadillac Motor Division and should sit proudly on the field of any Grand National. I am a vehement and obnoxious opponent of "Circus wagon customs" as someone in this forum called the grossly modified cars discussed previously. There are clubs for these cars, and our board has chosen to recognize them to some extent. Simply put, this year I have received my 50 year pin from the CCCA, the Pierce-Arrow Society, and the AACA. I feel that I have helped preserve history by the purchase, preservation, and maintenance of the probably 100 cars that I have owned. As far as people not driving their old cars, and not letting people touch them, this is nonsense. Many enthusiasts such as Jay and myself have driven 1930's, '40's and 50's cars hundreds of mile on tours, Caravans, and enroute to meets. We cannot complain about what the CLC board decides, we can only work to place the people who concur with the principals that we, as purists endorse. No radial tires, but circus wagon customs? Really.
The bottom line is, Tony and David and others, you can't fight City Hall. And I guess there is no provision in the CLC constitution for a club-wide, California-style referendum on this contentious topic.
That is a good idea. Maybe the membership could be polled as to their feelings.
First off, I'm old guy. I have had numerous discussions with local car club "presidents" that have seen a dramatic drop off of vintage, classic, restored, and yes even pre war hot rods showing up at the weekly get togethers. The problem is you go to any of these shows in our city, and you see only old guys.
When we discuss this at length (and I have even written articles about how to get the younger generations into the cars we love) we all seem to come to the same conclusion; Most young folks cannot afford to jump in the old car "game" these days. They are struggling with Student loan debts, starting a family and the cost of just about everything is skyrocketing.
Now I know there are guys who put a ton a money into a "modified". But I really think to chastise these builders is not the solution and still, even with the presence of these cars, overall there are not enough young folks picking up the old car gauntlet.
For me the bottom line is enjoy what you build. Respect what the guy or woman next to you has built. You both put a lot of time into your project and to turn your nose up at these "modified" cars will not instill participation that one day may result into another car being saved.
I was young once. When I was, I had no interest in original cars, only hot rods. There where a few men I met at AACA shows much older than me with restored cars that gave me advice, sold me parts, and were quite kind to me even though I was not "restoring" my 1936 Ford at 19 years old. Now after a lifetime of the old car hobby, I have restored a few cars as my tastes have changed. Don't count out the idea that some of these younger guys who find a way to drive an old car, modified or not, may someday be the guardians of this great hobby.
"The problem is you go to any of these shows in our city, and you see only old guys."
As I remember, as a young automobile enthusiast a long time ago (I'm 73), it has always been this way. In the late '50s and on into the '60s and even the '70s I too was mostly interested in hot rods and fast cars. At an old car show back then it was usually the older generation that had the restored antique cars and the interest in them, you didn't often see young guys with restored antique cars. Just like today. We are now another generation of older guys replacing the old guys from back then. We are now the ones with more time and more discretionary funds. The next bunch of older guys will come along after us and many will bring with them the interests in the cars of their youth. l
I don't know all the new rules of allowing modifieds in to the GN. But if they have there own class or classes does it really matter. I think one stipulation should be that all cars in the GN are Cadillac powered. That would keep half of them away. Or in courage them to use cad power.
Until we see the rules and the judging sheet, I really think the whole debate is a moot point. We can go on and on about the what if's and wherefores but until we see something in writing, the whole debate is all for naught.
G Newcombie, I see the same things but have a different opinion. With the government attempting to force us onto public transportation and the coming of autonomous (Self Driving) cars the love affair with cars is waning and will continue to do so at an even faster rate. A good example is New York City. In 1960 I was in the army discussing cars with a guy my age form New York. He asked why I liked cars, he had never even driven one. I was born in 1940 and grew up in the suburbs of Seattle and cars were necessary and money was hard to come by so we all had to learn how to repair our cars. I remember changing a clutch Friday night and Saturday morning for a date Saturday evening. Kids today do not relate to that, and that is where the love affair with cars begins in my opinion.
I believe that Cadillac power is one of the prerequisites of being judged at the GN. For those that attended you may have noticed, our apparently obvious disdain has resulted in very few "modified" attendees. The one I saw was this LaSalle. A young man was showing it off proudly. It was the life's work of his father who had just finished it and (if my memory of my conversation is correct) just driven it once before he passed away. IMHO the lack of interest we seemed to show in this car as a group probably "told" this young man that we were a bunch of stuck up snobs and turned him away from the organization for any or all of his future automobile endeavors. As much as we try to ignorre it, there are always a few more of us missing at each GN, due to our dirt naps. IF we actually have any interest in the organization and not just our egos we need to welcome any Cadillac or La Salle that shows up, and allow those complying with the new rules to be judged.
Just my thoughts
Greg Surfas
I believe most of us are saying the same thing in different ways and degrees. For this CLC joint venture, we are all talking about the love of Cadillacs. Owning them, driving them, showing them, or preserving them to what ever level you prefer. Again, and again, what is the issue here? There is a place in this club for all of us - Cadillac/LaSalle or Cadillac/LaSalle/Modified. As for me, if you only want to park your car in the grass on some famous golf course out west or build a Cadillac Dream Machine on the East who should mind? Frankly, I enjoy talking to all of you when showing your cars. I don't care if at Pebble Beach or a rat car on a beach. I have seen old Cadillacs with trees growing within them become something beautiful because someone had a vision, skill, and the time to make something of them or even save the parts for you and me. There is an old child's book that comes to mind about some persons having stars on their belly buttons, and some persons not having them - you should read it. We are in this club together and from each other we have managed to locate, purchase, or build a Cadillac of our choice. We can show our cars and others appreciate them, and if we can obtain some acknowledgement in the form of competition why not. Strange though, I don't see persons owning modified cars having stars on their belly buttons, or their noses up in the air all the time. Sorry, but this has been my experience during the past ten years with the CLC. You want each others knowledge, but don't park that thing next to me - how does that sound.
Ty Stinson
Quote from: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on July 17, 2015, 10:51:57 AM
I believe that Cadillac power is one of the prerequisites of being judged at the GN. For those that attended you may have noticed, our apparently obvious disdain has resulted in very few "modified" attendees. The one I saw was this LaSalle. A young man was showing it off proudly. It was the life's work of his father who had just finished it and (if my memory of my conversation is correct) just driven it once before he passed away. IMHO the lack of interest we seemed to show in this car as a group probably "told" this young man that we were a bunch of stuck up snobs and turned him away from the organization for any or all of his future automobile endeavors. As much as we try to ignorre it, there are always a few more of us missing at each GN, due to our dirt naps. IF we actually have any interest in the organization and not just our egos we need to welcome any Cadillac or La Salle that shows up, and allow those complying with the new rules to be judged.
Just my thoughts
Greg Surfas
I don't remember if this car was cadillac powered? To Art's point this was the only street rod there.
I just found out that my 86-year-old car buddy has 6 weeks to live due to extreme cancer in his body. He is a Chevy purest and has insisted that I keep my car as original as I can over the years - and helped me with my minor mods too. He flew out to Texas with me to purchase a '49 Cad and to drive it back to Maryland - but it was a mess and I did not buy it. I was hot to sell my '37 to purchase another '49 in Baltimore but he convinced me to finish the '37. We visited Hershey several years where he helped me find parts for the '37 over the years. He and his purest Chevy friends shared many years with me there, and we had great times ribbing each other regarding pure vs. modified - like power (stink pots) and sail boaters - they dislike each others preference also, ha. ha.
I don't like the Brass Era automobiles but I certainly appreciate the remarkable craftmenship and consider the previous models and tools they had back then to work with. I graduated from high school in 1958, so anything built after that year in my mind is NOT an antique, but my '37 is because it was built prior to August 12, 1939 ha, ha. Although you have read my position regarding modified cars, you may not know that I helped with three Authenticity Manual reviews by proof reading every entry in each publication and made many comments along the way. If you want something to do to fill your time try that venture.
This is a wonderful club - but I hope we can get closer to an even keel. I don't know what is worse than looking down your nose at someones car, or sticking it up in the air as though you smell something - like my 1937 Cadillac V-12 Touring Sedan one of 87 built with added mods driving past you. My friends don't mind, and that is all that matters to me. Especially, now that one of my purest Chevy friends is about to pass.
Ty Stinson
Thanks for the great discussion all. David, thanks for brining up the topic. I re-read Bill Anderson's article again last night before responding, just to make sure I understood what you might have read. Please know Bill's mission in re-charging the judging of the CLC is to make the Club's awards more meaningful to the owners and future owners of our cars. What a NCRS Top Flight or an AACA Grand National award does for those cars' values, he wants a CLC Senior Crown Wreath to affect a Cadillac's value in the same way. Bill's primary mission, in his hobby (and his business by the way), is to promote bone stock "as delivered" vehicles on the show field. Interesting that no one mentioned that there were only 4 modified cars at Brookfield by my accounting not including professional cars. Those cars were an Eldo with an Olds engine, a '59 limo with a rumble seat, another limo with the Green Bay Packers painted on the hood and trunk, and ONE hot rodded '35-ish LaSalle. The Eldo with the Olds engine was the biggest offender since all cars on the show field are supposed to sport a Cadillac-build engine. That comes to 2% of the cars shown at the last GN being modified.
Getting back to the main point which is the article - Bill says we are developing judging criteria for modified cars against appropriate standards. So the idea is to still segregate modified cars - but integrate the people that own them. It might be a slippery slope, or it might be putting grip tape on the stairs. Who really knows, but I think we should back Bill and his dual mission of making the CLC awards even more meaningful, while casting a wider net to sustain the club.
No matter what your position please keep talking.
Dave Rubin
CLC Exec VP
I hope the owners of the four modified Cadillacs enjoyed themselves at the Grand National.
I have recently been informed that CLC enrollment has declined by 400 since last year which represents approximately 5%. On the bright side, this attrition is not out of line with membership losses of other marque car clubs. In some cases, I believe it was much worse than that experienced by the CLC.
In any case, I fully back Bill's decision and all avenues should be kept open in order to help ensure the CLC's continued survival. More is certainly better and the expertise and knowledge that many customers bring to the table cannot be denied. And who knows, today's modified owner may well become a disciple of original, tomorrow.
Let us not forget, car associations are first about the people, cars a distant second.
Thanks,
Eric
I have both types and can tell you any car that gets a new person interested in the hobby is a good thing. Modified or otherwise. We need new blood! My 41 street Packard does get a few remarks about not being "correct". Too bad is what I say. My engineless car was saved from the crusher. I returned the exterior to a stock configuration but really love to walk out and start that 500 cid engine with no drama, then cruise down the interstate @ 75 mph @ 2000 rpm getting 20 mpg. Thank you Cadillac for such a fine engine! So Packard or Cadillac? Depends. It makes people smile and yes it stops with 4 wheel discs brakes too!
As David points out, I'd hate to hammer a good condition stock Caddy into a rod unless there was no other way to economically save the car.
A new kid might come in with a modified, but after a few GNs and conversations with the knoligable people that the clc has there next build could easily be restoration to original specs. However if you don't welcome them once they will not return and most likely stay with modifying for ever. One of the reasons I have not joined the clc is because I have only recently been able to test my driveline (about 300 miles), If something catastrophic goes wrong with the driveline guess what, I do not have the funds to put into another flathead so it will be replaced with something newer ,bigger, faster and stronger. and easier to get parts for. As well as cheaper. I would try to get a 500 but if I could not find one then it would be bbc or sbc what ever keeps my Cadillac on the road. To join the clc at this point only to be shund later for a choice I may have to make would be a waste of my money. If the clc were more open to modifieds maybe I would make that step. But in my opinion the chance to take part in the GN is part of membership to the clc.
Just my .05 worth ( we don't have pennies anymore)
Hello Smedly, good to have you here weather you are a member or not. You should not let this string of discussion sway you from joining the CLC. As you can see we are all welcome here to discuss our opinions. The only real issue here is parking our cars beside each other in competition - so to speak.
Did you try talking with the Modified Chapter people yet? You might not know that many of them are also speaking here, and offer very valuable information and assistance. They will certainly advise you well in any direction you choose to proceed with your car. I've been here for 10 years when I purchased my car back on July 4, 2005 and have been helped by both Chapters to an unbelievable degree along the way. Without them I would have been lost. I started my car staying on the "like original" route for 95% but then modified some things the way I like them on my car. Just keep in mind that if you change something there are many other things that will need changing along the way and all that means money, money, money. Consider long and hard before you change the engine then the transmission, then the rear end, then the springs and it will be on an on and on. Same with changing the 6 volt system to 12 volts for the optional engine. You can obtain another original engine here for far less - beleave me. But, if you still want to go that way of choice, they will help you figure out everything and save you many heart aches. I am a member there too.
Ty Stinson
Oh, and by the way, you should join the CLC NOW. Why? Because you are just starting out and you need to get your car in the roster. There you will see a listing of all the members cars just like yours, where they are located, if near you, and owner contact information. You will certainly like the monthly magazine and will be at your post box waiting for the delivery. Joining dos not mean you are a purest.
Ty Stinson
Hello again Smedly, just received notice that the Cadillac & LaSalle Club Potomac Region will feature the first time, CLC regional dealer-sponsored car show for modified Cadillacs and LaSalles, Magnificent Modifieds, the theme for this year's Annual Fall Car Show on Sunday, October 25th at Capitol Cadillac in Greenbelt, MD, will celebrate the creativity and craftsmanship of these unique Cadillacs and LaSalles. I hope to see you there. Show hours 9:00 am - 2:30 pm. Call them on 301 441 9600 or www.ecapitol.com
Visit on the web -
www.clcpotomacregion.org
Ty Stinson
Quote from: Maynard Krebs on July 22, 2015, 10:24:19 PM
I suggest another important and necessary distinction: all wheel rims must be the same diameter as original for the car. If the car came with 15s, then any wheel change must be 15" in diameter.....or 16",
as the case may be.
I suppose that would exclude me as 15" wheels don't fit over 14" disc brakes. Good thing I'm not concerned with CLC judging, I can just roll around in my donk'd Brougham blasting Tupac >:D
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1052.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs460%2FIINNTTMMDD88%2FBroughamwheels_zpsb30e2303.jpg&hash=617a01d419590811b9842b5e0fc562a4a9fbf29d)
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1052.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs460%2FIINNTTMMDD88%2Fphoto42_zps3978e441.jpg&hash=606a4cc8611c2bce39fc2f0cec095d0e7e2f6c35)
I have read the comments here and actually, if someone owns a car and wants to make it unique and modify it to suit their own tastes, who can really say what is right or wrong. The situation that arises when a substantially modified Caddy rolls into a regional or national CLC event, these people would like to be welcomed to a CLC event, which they should be.
The last big show I attended that was a CLC event was the Capitol Cadillac show in DC. There was a guy there with a semi modified 60 convertible, shaved nose and deck, mods under the hood. His car was featured in the showroom. There was another car outside, a 63 or 64 Coupe with a satin blue paint job and custom 20" wheels with Vogues.
Who are they harming? We are talking about production cars that were made by the thousands in some cases. I personally bought a treasure trove of original parts this year from two different guys that were building high dollar customs out of 1960 Seville's. I am using some of the parts for my own stock original Seville and sold other parts to guys doing authentic restorations.
Let these guys have a category and a spot at our shows. Give it a try. You don't need to look at their cars, but if they are Cadillac owners and pay dues, let them show their cars and take a look at something different. Lets face it, the car hobby is changing. You can join the AACA and take a 1983 Dodge Caravan and enter it at fall Hershey because it's old enough. Seems crazy to me but maybe that vehicle is really special to someone. The hobby is all about appreciation and preservation of cars and trucks. There are lots of ways to do that.
Personally I would rather look at a modified Cadillac than a 2 year old Cadillac at a CLC dealer show but if someone is proud of their Cadillac and wants to show it, who am I to dictate what is acceptable. Maybe a guy with a 41 60 Sixty Special who remembers an 85 Eldo as a new car thinks it's crazy to see one parked at an "old" car show.
Live and let live, open your mind, and try to appreciate the skills that some of these modified guys possess.
Brian
G'day Brian,
I am with you, and all the other car owners that appreciate anything automobillia.
But, having said that, I do like to look at a totally stock as a rock Cadillac, or LaSalle, or even a Goggomobile, and appreciate it, and if it is standing against a Modified vehicle of the same type, it is great to appreciate the work that has gone into both the modifications, or restoration.
To say that a Car Club has to stay strictly to the original aims of said club, then it will eventually die, as there will be nobody left to get onto committees and run the clubs.
Don't forget that the CLC was formed to only cover Cadillacs and LaSalles up to 1941. But, somewhere along the way, the coverage was increased to later and later years. If it didn't do this, then it wouldn't be the strong club it is now. Take out all the cars newer than 1946, and there are only 8 pages of vehicles in the International Membership Directory. Add after 1946, and there are 28 pages up to the year 2010.
All clubs need to be aware that in a lot of cases, exclusiveness leads eventually to snobbishness, and soon demise.
If we want to grow, we need all the assistance we can get, and I hate to say it, but if the younger generation cannot afford to purchase older stock cars for reasonable prices, they will gravitate to the later models, and change then to suit their own needs.
Years ago, when cars were cheap, we would go out and buy them, really cheaply, but when we want to sell them, we want to get astronomical money.
Plus, in a lot of cases, we cleaned out all the cheap cars from our local surroundings, leaving nothing for the next generation. I even cleaned out most of Tasmania of 1935 and 1936 Ford wrecks and parts, (11 of them) just to build up one 1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe. And that was just for body parts. But, a lot did go via the Speedways and demolition derbies.
Bruce. >:D
I think some of you are missing my point.
I am against changing the judging rules for the modified cars to be easier for them to win trophies at CLC events.
I don't think it is a good idea to encourage these guys to cut up and bastardize perfectly good classic cars.
Up to now, the judging system was harsh on these cars so their owners got plenty of deductions. Thus they realized
that our club was for preserving the cars not altering what the designers and stylist created.
Changing to 15 inch wheels so you can add disc brakes but going to great trouble to make the wheelcovers look stock is
commendable in my opinion. Take a minor hit on judging for the disc brakes. I don't see it as a big deal.
Those aren't the mods that I am worried about.
The creation of a special modified class simply provides owners of these cars an avenue to have their cars judged among their peers as opposed to regular primary in which such cars have virtually no chance of winning an award. Cars in the modified class are not going to be judged against stock originals in the regular Primary or Senior divisions.
Judging rules and procedure in regular class divisions will not be affected or modified in any way.
The creation of such a class does not in any way dilute the CLC judging standards of authenticity nor the primary focus or fundamental mission of the CLC.
This is not to say these modifieds are necessarily "inferior" or "lesser" than their original/stock brethren, simply that they are different, unique and it would be folly for the CLC to ignore the products of the talents, ingenuity and workmanship of individuals responsible for these creations.
To wit:
An article written in 1953 documents the customization & sectioning of a then-new 1952 Cadillac Coupe. This was and extremely complex and expensive undertaking with nearly as much artistic conceptualization design analysis as that had been done at GM when designing the car in the first place. The final product was tastefully and beautifully done and every bit as attractive as the original 1952 Cadillac Coupe had been - at least to my eyes - if not, moreso.
http://www.kustomrama.com/index.php?title=Ed_Wilder's_1952_Cadillac
Another example that comes to mind is a pair of V16 Fran Roxas creations for which Cadillac had drawings but were never actually built. One was a 1937 dual cowl Phaeton, the other a 1934 Rumbleseat Roadster.
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/15/cadillac-bringing-pair-of-depression-era-cars-that-went-unsold-t/
Both of these cars were so well executed with attention to detail so meticulous, either could easily pass for factory issue to perhaps all but the most astute and knowledgeable prewar Cadillac experts.
So there are just three examples of three very well done, well thought-out and well executed creations that would be a welcome exhibit at any CLC meet. (The two Roxas cars had already been shown at Pebble Beach)
Cars like these are only the tip of the iceberg; there are many more and when discussing "modifieds" or "customizations", it is important to recognize just how broad the category is.
Not every custom is the "rat rod" or "donk" you saw parked last night at the 7-11.
Thanks.
Well stated, Eric.
Below are the guidelines from the judging manual, which apply to Primary, Senior, Wreath, and Crown divisions.
Addition of the Modified Division has not changed these classes at all.
1. The Primary Division is for Cadillac and LaSalle automobiles manufactured as 1999 models and older and/ or which are 20 years old and older as manufactured, assembled and/or authorized for sale by the Cadillac Motor Division of General Motors.
2. The Touring Division is for Cadillac and LaSalle automobiles manufactured as 1999 models and older and/or which are 20 years old and older as manufactured, assembled and/or authorized for sale by the Cadillac Motor Division of General Motors that are regularly driven and not maintained as pristine, like-new cars.
3. The Senior Division is intended to promote the preservation of Cadillac and LaSalle automobiles to the highest standards. First-place winning cars in the Primary Division advance to the Senior Division.
I don't understand how these can be interpreted as "watering down" the standards for Authentic cars.
Jim
I will add that for the purist that love original cars the judging criteria for Primary and Senior cars is actually getting more picky since they will be graded purely against the benchmark of the condition of the car as originally delivered to the first owner, instead of points comparisons between cars for 1st, 2nd and 3rd finish. I've judged the last 3 years in Primary and will confirm if you put a heavily modified car in the "Primary" field, it will quickly rack of deductions to score it below the point threshold for any awards. Also, it must be reiterated that modified will have their on judging class, whatever, that may be and will have zero affect on the grading of cars in the Touring, Primary and Senior Classes.
There is room for everyone, regardless if you are into original unrestored, restored to original, modified to partial custom, or modified to full custom. As Chief Judge Bill Anderson stated in his July 2015, Self Starter Article - Modified Cars in the future CLC judging, "We continue to recognize those that maintain, preserve and restore Cadillacs and LaSalles to their as-manufactured condition."
If anything, the CLC is adding to and not taking away anything from anyone. If anything, the true purists should be thrilled with the direction Bill Anderson is taking us and would encourage those interested read the Chief Judges blog on the main website (or by clicking here: http://www.cadillaclasalleclub.org/category/chief-judges-blog/ (http://www.cadillaclasalleclub.org/category/chief-judges-blog/), downloading and reading Judging Manual (available here http://www.cadillaclasalleclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/CLC_JudgingManual.pdf (http://www.cadillaclasalleclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/CLC_JudgingManual.pdf). Or, better yet go to the next Grand National and volunteer to judge. You will have a much better appreciation of the entire process and what goes into it.
Quote from: Jason Edge on July 23, 2015, 01:43:24 PM
If anything, the true purists should be thrilled with the direction Bill Anderson is taking us
QuoteI don't understand how these can be interpreted as "watering down" the standards for Authentic cars.
Why would a purist be thrilled to see a section of Donk cars on the show field or on the cover of a future Self Starter magazine?
Having their own separate judging criteria still sends a message that we as a club approves of them altering the cars in a way that
does not
"maintain, preserve and restore Cadillacs and LaSalles to their as-manufactured condition." I never wrote that the standards for the existing classes are being watered down. I am opposed to watering down the standards for the
modified class. They should be held to the same standards. Which they obviously cannot meet.
The first issue of a Self Starter with a Donk car on the cover will be my last.
As has been said before, do any of those customizers think they can do a better job than Harley Earl?
This topic has now been locked.
Bruce. >:D