In reading a few of the recent posts it seems clear that the Automatic Level Control (ALC) featured on just about all FWD Eldorados have become something of a discretionary item for restoration. In spite of countless engineering hours to design a suspension system predicated upon the ALC leveling the car at all times for ride quality and safety it seems like some of us know better. Sure there are countless ways to circumvent the system, just as there are countless ways to circumvent just about all the other features designed and built into our Cadillacs. The question is why, among a group where originality and authenticity are paramount, why not with the ALC?
We go to extremes to replace headlights with 40 year old (or reproductions of them) bulbs for authenticity, and spend countless words talking about why bias ply tires must be used for authenticity. I am just curious why this does not apply to the ALC. Is it because the ALC which is not an option but was standard is not Judged YET ?
Anyhow, the ALC prior to it going electronic was as simple as any mechanical device could be. It couldn't be the cost, because many of us spend our children's inheritance on such mundane things as "perfect" upholstery and chrome. What is it? I am genuinely curious.
Greg Surfaqs
On mine, the previous owner had disconnected the ALC and replaced it with a Monroe shocks system that lets you adjust the rear height yourself. Difference between low and high is 5 inches but visually it seems like more. I would rather have that ability to manually adjust height myself than anything else.
No parts are readily available and no one rebuilds the compressors. That's what I found.
Anyone know of a supplier of the parts that fail (diaphragms, seals, etc.) and / or some one who rebuilds the units?
I'd love to have my system work.....
At this point in my life I still can't afford to make authenticy paramount. I try not to do anything that would be difficult to reverse and I keep original parts just in case I or the next person would want to go back but in the last 20 years with the same car I can't think of anything I took off that I would want to put back at this time. My manual fill air shocks on my 73 work much better than the original system did with the petrified 'soft' parts in the compressor and rusted out tank. Same deal on my 80 because I could not afford any more time or money screwing around with used sensor/modules. If there was a reliable replacement parts for either system I would likely do it but with both it seems that you just roll the dice on used parts that you often seem to have to pay a premium on. Tried it on both and didn't get anything for my money but wasted time.
Greg,
The short answer is money and lack of available talent.
It is not expensive to you because you know how to fix them, and most do not. A simple and fun hour of your time invested in maintaining the ALC on your car may translate to a $1,000 and nothing accomplished and probably worse off by a typical mechanic in our area. As an example of this is a 1976 FWB with 32k miles is brought to me after the owner spent over $1,000 on rear ALC/spring/shock repairs because one side was about two inches higher than the other. The problem was that the springs were not rotated to the correct position and the wrong air shocks were installed. The mid Atlantic is so starved for old car mechanics that this car was driven 228 miles to me for repairs. I rotated the springs to correct position (then car was level on both sides) and replaced the shocks. The springs were the type for a non-ALC so it had to b e done. If you were at the repair shops guiding the mechanics everyone would be enjoying their ALC. The ALC system is completely unfamiliar to most modern mechanical shops. No mechanics will ever take the time to read, they would rather guess. A friend of mine's brother in law got out of rehab at age 35 and started his first long term employment, which was the only job he could get but did not want as - you guessed it an automotive mechanic.
The most common thing I see, which is the worst remedy is a tire valve at the license plate where you add air to replace air gradually leaking out of shocks.
On my 1970 SDV with 36k miles: the front suspension was completely re-built, rear suspension completely rebuilt, brake system completely replaced including all the steel lines, the fuel system completely rebuilt, including the supply and return lines front to back, the body to frame bushings all replaced, the exhaust system replaced, the timing chain/water pump/hoses/radiator/trans cooler lines - all replaced. All this work was executed and completed to a high standard, with parts removed media blasted and powder coated. All the weather stripping was replaced, doors, trunk, and etc. hood insulation replaced. All mechanical systems made to be reliable and durable - ready to drive to Alaska. All this work increased the value of the car about fifteen dollars.
I do not own a car with ALC, but have worked on many that do. It is all about cost, reliability, and durability. No one really wants to spend any money on mechanicals except for climate control. The climate control on my 1970 Caddy was fixed too, but I left that off the list because that would add value.
On the other hand money invested in upholstery, chrome, carpet, paint and other cosmetics does provide a return and it is what most value. I do not agree with that and prize proper operation, a car that drives well, and durability. Although a nice looking car is not unappreciated.
Frankly for RWD it does not seem worth it to me. On my car, I transport a heavy floor jack, tools, parts and luggage in my 1970 RWD Cadillac to GN and the back does not sag. For FWD it probably is worth it, but most of the time with just a driver and a tank of gas, no ALC will be fine. If people asked me to fix their ALC I would. It is all about the $.
The real issue is that as these cars (with ALC) become more prominent in the livery of the club and in the judging, the functionality of the ALC will definitely become a "points" issue.
Greg Surfas
Greg,
Eldorado operation of ACL should be judged.
Further, it would be good if all the cars were taken for a test drive with each judge at GN. Understand that this is not practical on Saturday, but a judge should ride or drive each car on a quick road test maybe starting Wednesday when cars arrive. There are many wonderful driving cars that get hurt for imperfect cosmetics judged against more perfect cosmetically preserve cars that drive very poorly.
Guess after I typed this last sentence it came to me, judges value cosmetics not proper operation. I will never forget the perfect bronze colored 1959 perfect Eldorado with bucket seats and a/c that was all original I saw at a show five years or so ago. It was stunningly well preserved, paint and all. However, when it drove off the trailer it sounded just terrible, uneven, metal noises, loud exhaust - would not trust it to drive a mile. After it was put back on the trailer, their were a lot of fluids for me to clean up afterwards (inside dealer show room).
Until judges start checking authentic ACL, the not fixing them trend will likely continue.
Judges check the operation of devices such as (I believe) radios, Air Conditioning and heating, clocks, power accessories. It would seem only a mater of time , again with the "coming to age" of the older FWD Eldos that ALC join the list.
As the need grows parts will be made and devices fixed.
Greg Surfas
Gentleman,
Having successfully completed a 'frame off', if you will call it that, of a 67 Eldorado I can assure you the ALC system is complex, not simple. I was lucky to have resotred my car right when parts availability was ending. I successfully rebuilt my compressor & level sening valve. At one time new level sensing valves were still available at semi truck parts houses, all that needed to be done was change the external connections from the 67.
When my car was judged at the Lancaster, PA GN the ALC system was not going to be checked as well as the windshield washer system. I objected & the judges consented to judge them saying they would not work...well they did. The car was running, compressor was thumping, which the judges didn't know what it was, I had two of them set on the rear bumper, trunk lid was up, back of car dropped & nothing happened.....15 seconds later up came the rear of the car to proper ride height. I told the judges to stand up, car raises, nothing happened....15 seconds later rear of car lowered to proper ride height. The wiper washers worked the instant I activated them.
Two lessons:
1. What good is a great looking car if items on it don't work
2. Judges need to be educated on how car systems should look & work before becoming judges
Now, be nice to me before you chop my head off.
Yes, $ are extremely important when you don't depend on the cars for daily transportation.
Larry
Larry,
Why would anyone chop your head off, to me your account agrees with what everyone else wrote. You devoted the resources to repairs of the ALC offering that your experience was that they were not simple or inexpensive.
Enjoy your Cadillac! I drove my 1970 SDV today and what a joy.
I applaud all those who do what they can afford to do to keep these works of art on the road....period. While I am a staunch supporter of pure and absolute originality, and do have a '75 Eldorado with an original working ALC, I'd much rather see someone adapt the ALC and go to manual air ride shocks even with the valve mounted near the rear license plate as opposed to some other destructive modification like a full around air ride/low-rider set up. Same for the rest of the car(s).
Most of us, me included, do not have relatively unlimited funds to put into these cars but rather have "just enough" to afford the initial purchase and then the initial repairs and then the ongoing upkeep. I think we all spend what we can, and if it is not totally original, as long as the work keeps these luxury land yachts on the road without major and obvious modifications I say go for it. For those who can afford it all totally original I say go for that TOO.......
Jeff
If the question is shows and judging then I would say I would have to agree with Greg. Seems crazy to me that after making sure you have the correct color bolts and chalk marks to go with how many other parts you paid 2-10x what just a part would cost that the judges would not bother to look for a working ALC system.
I'm no where near that level and don't know if I will ever be. I'm for sure in the hopefully can afford the time and the money to just keep the car in driving condition category.
The new head judge is reasonable, and probably would embrace this new standard for all ALC equipped Cadillacs. The two guys in the trunk test should be fine and not lengthen the time required to judge. I don't have a horse in this race and probably never will, unless I buy a Fleetwood. Accordingly, it is only right for me to support what is factory correct.
With the radial tire thing, I'm probably going to drop out of being judged anyway and just be there for display - not sure, knowing my luck first place in P22 will go to a radial tire equipped car I could beat.
I am fine with things like bias ply tires, asbestos brake shoes, and whale oil in the transmission fluid being used to break ties between otherwise equal cars. If there are two equal 1959s and one has the original Pitman arm, while the other has the safe one that came out later, I'm even fine with the dangerous one winning the tiebreaker.
When it comes to ALC, why shouldn't a car with a working ALC beat an otherwise equal car whose ALC doesn't work?
As cars get more and more competitive, smaller and smaller differences between them grow in importance. I was once at an Oldsmobile club meet and there were 2 equally beautiful 1956 98 convertibles. Everything about them looked actually newer and better than the day they were born. They both had working clocks. One clock was 15 minutes off, and t6hat lost it to the other that was at the correct time.
Greg Surfas
Maybe there should be a deduction for looking better than new because it is not authentic... :)
One more point that may be of interest--- the second generation level compressor using an electric actuated pump is nearly bullet proof. If you've worked hard to get the first gen compressor going, and the darn thing simply clinks away and won't compress, it's truly annoying when you discover that GM engineers came up with an elegant re-design that makes the former iteration appear far less durable and clearly undesirable. (IMHO) James
James,
And at one point they went from vacuum powered wind shield wipers to electric ones. The point being restoration of the original seems to be the theme.
Greg Surfas
You're entirely correct Greg... Just makes me sad to see an otherwise lovely Eldorado sitting on its rear axle bumpers with the single leaf spring suspension stressed to the breaking point, and the ALC pump clicking away, but to no effect. But again, I'm off topic, so I apologize. James
Quote from: James Landi on January 02, 2016, 04:44:54 PM
You're entirely correct Greg... Just makes me sad to see an otherwise lovely Eldorado sitting on its rear axle bumpers with the single leaf spring suspension stressed to the breaking point, and the ALC pump clicking away, but to no effect. But again, I'm off topic, so I apologize. James
It' about the 67-70 Eldo's rear springs loosing their springing resiliency which n turn causesthe ALC compressor to fail from overwork. The real heavy lifting should be done by the springs with the pump as an augmentor. I restored my 68 Eldo with 3 leaf springs set to proper rear ride height without any weight in the back. Then I rebuilt the ALC compressor which does it's job as needed without trying to carry the springs loading too. That is what is wrong when you just add airshocks and a manual fill valve. An Eldo with it's ass in the air does not brake well in an emergency either which is why the horizontal shocks are there to stabilize the beam axle side to side as long as their is an inspec rear ride height.
The 79-85 E bodies also really need to be at the correct height too, the independent suspension on those gives you a wacky rear bump steer.
Quote from: Rob Troxel on January 03, 2016, 10:31:14 AM
It' about the 67-70 Eldo's rear springs loosing their springing resiliency which n turn causesthe ALC compressor to fail from overwork. The real heavy lifting should be done by the springs with the pump as an augmentor. I restored my 68 Eldo with 3 leaf springs set to proper rear ride height without any weight in the back. Then I rebuilt the ALC compressor which does it's job as needed without trying to carry the springs loading too.
The ALC compressor does not work any harder with a greater load or weaker springs. The compressor maintains a constant 280 PSIG no matter what the load is. If there are leaks in the system that will cause the compressor to work more (but not harder).
The shocks need to have some pressure in them at all times or else the air bag will collapse and chafe until it leaks. That is why the factory springs do not hold the full weight of the rear end. The system is designed for the shocks to hold some of the weight. With stronger springs and the residual pressure in the shocks the rear end must be high.
I get what you are saying Glenn, but with well over 200 PSI trying to hold up a sagging rear end on a car with failed springs, the extra work along with road jounce means the shocks do carry too much of the load and are doomed to fail as well. (Where do you find the special airshocks designed for these cars anymore?) The ride on my 68 Eldo with three persons in that back and a trunk load of suitcases is stable and cloud like. With the old single leaf springs, it was boom, bang, clang.
For the 68 ELDO I had to convert to Gabriel shocks. The air fittings are different but easy to convert to. Plus, the air bag is better protected.
The compressor fills the reservoir to approximately 280 PSIG depending on how strong the vacuum from the engine is. But the shocks cannot take that much pressure so there is a regulator (the thing with the yellow cap) that drops the pressure to 125 PSIG.
When the system is working right I have never had a problem with the suspension bottoming out even with a trunk load of tools.
Thanks for the tip on the Gabriel shocks Glenn. When I went to rebuild the compressor, the regulator valve parts had exited under a previous owners watch. Found an NOS regulator though some years ago. Can imagine the parts are now hard to come by.
The regulator also acts as a safety valve and blows it guts out if the pressure in the line to the rear goes too high. The reason the pressure goes too high is because the regulator valve gets a bit of dirt in it so it won’t close.
Go here: http://wikicadillac.org/tiki-index.php?page=Automatic+Level+Control (http://wikicadillac.org/tiki-index.php?page=Automatic+Level+Control)to see how to prevent that. I tie a sock over the regulator to catch the parts if it does blow. On the Eldo I sometimes find the parts in the body mount just below compressor.