Ok, got a big problem here guys and I was hoping to see if anyone could help me on this.
I just changed the oil on my 64 last night, because I have had a bad lifter tick and the car idles like crap because of it. After checking the oil almost a month ago, I noticed the dipstick wasn't registering any oil at all. So I added a few quarts which brought the levels back up to normal since I had a small valve cover gasket leak I thought the loss of oil was due to the valve covers not being properly torqued down. So I torqued the bolts down, and the leaked stopped. As the oil burning went away from the oil seepage, I thought to myself "Ok all is well". Well I didn't think of fuel dilution in the oil causing a false reading! After smelling the oil dipstick, it reeked of gas and I knew right away something was wrong.
As I drained the oil, It literally over filled an entire 10 quart oil container with a mixture of gas and oil! I am surprised the engine was still running at all. :'( I could of easily destroyed it in no time. The thing is, I don't drive my car for long distances at a time, and I don't take it on the freeway. The last time the oil was changed was 7 months ago. I mean it's been awhile, but because I don't drive the car a whole lot during the week, it's shocking to know all that gas was in the oil.
I remember this same exact thing happened to me a year ago. I replaced the fuel pump because I thought it was dumping gas into the oil. Plus my carb kept flooding out. Since then, I got the flooding cured, it was because I had no fuel inlet strainer in the carb to block out the tiniest of particles from entering the float chambers and keeping them stuck open. After getting that small strainer and adding an additional fuel filter before the fuel pump, and insulating the fuel lines from vapor lock, the flooding disappeared for good. Gas in CA sucks, and the ethanol just creates big problems for our cars especially vapor lock.
Anyhow, I know the carb is tuned rich, but the engine won't run smoothly at all without the mixture screws being set to a richer setting which the screws are turned almost all the way out. There's no black smoke from the exhaust, or raw fuel odors, the engine actually runs quite smoothly once warmed up fully and has loads of power.
The timing is set at 5 degrees like the manual states, but I had it set up to 8-10 degrees at one point in time because the engine just wouldn't idle properly, at this setting however, the engine severely lacked power to move the big Caddy. it was too far advanced. After tinkering with the carb, I was able to lower timing back to 5 degrees BDC. This restored the performance of the 429, the power and acceleration was a night and day difference.
I am starting to believe that the timing of the engine was too far advanced for months, thus sucking down more gas than what is necessary causing excess fuel into the crankcase.
That or a faulty fuel pump that has only lasted a year probably due to contaminants like rust particles and other debris entering the pump and damaging it, or even the carb itself. But I can't see this amount of gas being dumped into the oil pan just from a leak in the carb. If so, what part of the carb do I inspect for internal fuel leaks? BTW my carby is a Carter.
Much appreciated!
Reading the title of you post, first thought was fuel pump. This was yours too and from your post it is replaced. New parts are often bad unfortunately. Probably a good idea to replace it again with a known very high quality fuel pump. If the replacement was an auto parts special, where they generally supply the very least expensive part possible that could be the problem. When the fuel pump on the car is removed examine it to see if in fact it was defective.
There are not too many places raw fuel interfaces with oil, except at the fuel pump.
Another possibility is that upon start up from being cold you pump the gas pedal a real lot in raw gas enters the cylinders and drains down to sump. It seems unlikely that in 7 months and probably 30 cold starts that this would happen to the extent that more than 5 quarts of gas would be in the sump.
The original steel fuel lines front to back and between fuel pump and carb are steel inside and out. They tend to rust from inside out due to new gas with alcohol-a moisture attractant. They should be replaced if original, as rust particles from them are likely entering your fuel system and that is not doing you any good at all. That could be cause of your problem. The new replacement fuel lines have a brass type alloy liner and will never corrode from inside. The stainless steel fuel lines look nicer and of course will not corrode either, but they are difficult to attain a leak proof connection at compression fittings. I would use the standard steel with brass alloy liner to replace them.
I hope that this year you can get your Cadillac to the point of being able to be driven and enjoyed on the highway, it really shines during this type of drive.
I agree with Scot on a faulty fuel pump again. You wouldn't be the first guy to have that happen , as I experienced it a few times back in the 70's. I had a 66 Impala SS that I bought because the owners couldn't even get the car to crank over it had so much fuel in the crankcase. They even replaced the fuel pump after the first time and it turned out to be another faulty replacement which I replaced when I purchased the car from them as they ruled out another fuel pump issue. Keep in mind also that these new AC Delco pumps were not made in China back then either, but the good old USA. Fortunately there was no damage to engine but she was full to the heads of oil/gas. You stated the crappy California gas and that alone could mess up the rubber diaphragm in short period of time. Never rule out a defective part, though frustrating. Good luck, David Symonds
Thanks guys. You know I didn't think of the gas used in CA possibly causing ruptured fuel diaphragms due to not only ethanol, but other highly cooked up chemicals that nobody is probably aware of in this state.
The thing is, I am not having a start up or performance problems with the car. It always kicks right over with a pump or 2 on the gas pedal. Would a leaky diaphragm cause performance issues or simply a small leak?
About the fuel lines, they are original, and I was surprised by how much rust sediments filled up the aftermarket fuel filter I installed. I eventually have to drop the gas tank and have it cleaned out because the particular content that I saw in the fuel filters was pretty bad. I even saw some tiny black hair like pieces stuck in the filter, not sure what they heck it is but it was just weird to see. These little strands were getting stuck in the needle valves in the carburetor causing the flooding because I had to scrape it out of the hole! For now I have been using MMO in the tank to help lubricate the lines, fuel pump and to clean the carb and engine internals.
I used a fuel pump that is Made in the USA and doesn't look or feel cheap at all. But like all new auto parts today, you just never know anymore in regards to quality control. Plus it isn't like it was years ago when you had multiple suppliers and makers for parts, they have all consolidated and bought each other out. This has severely reduced people's options including auto shops and dealers from possibly buying a much higher quality part as many of the suppliers make parts under various different brands and labels. For instance almost every automotive battery made today from OEM, to Autozone, Die Hard, to O'Reilly batteries are all made by the same company, Johnsons Controls.
I will replace the pump again and see what happens. The job is a piece of cake plus the pump is still under warranty. :D
My fingers are crossed. :)
Just a word or two about a crankcase full of fuel. A ruined engine is the least of your worries in this case. Your engine could potentially ignite and explode in a fireball and all that goes with that. Don't ask how I know. Have a good rest of the day. ;)
In the past the fuel pumps had a hole drilled in the case near where the pump bolts to the block. The purpose was to drain any gas that got passed the diaphragm. If the leak was too big it served as an indicator of a leak. Do the new ones have that hole? If not, then maybe you could drill one to tell you if the pump is leaking.
Quote from: Glen on February 24, 2016, 01:06:55 AM
In the past the fuel pumps had a hole drilled in the case near where the pump bolts to the block. The purpose was to drain any gas that got passed the diaphragm. If the leak was too big it served as an indicator of a leak. Do the new ones have that hole? If not, then maybe you could drill one to tell you if the pump is leaking.
Really? I did not know this. I am not sure I remember seeing a weep hole prior to installing the last pump. Do you possibly have a picture of this hole? I can always drill one in myself but of course I don't want to drill in the wrong spot.
I also thought if the pump had an internal leak, gas would seep out onto the block.
Quote from: signart on February 23, 2016, 10:19:33 AM
Just a word or two about a crankcase full of fuel. A ruined engine is the least of your worries in this case. Your engine could potentially ignite and explode in a fireball and all that goes with that. Don't ask how I know. Have a good rest of the day. ;)
Yeah somebody told me I am driving a ticking time bomb with all that gas swooshing in the oil. ;D
Quote from: signart on February 23, 2016, 10:19:33 AM
Just a word or two about a crankcase full of fuel. A ruined engine is the least of your worries in this case. Your engine could potentially ignite and explode in a fireball and all that goes with that. Don't ask how I know. Have a good rest of the day. ;)
I would suspect that the oil would help raise the flash point on any fuel in the crankcase, and with all the parts flailing around in there would aerosolize the liquids sufficiently to probably be in too high a concentration to burn. Now you could possibly get some vapors to ignite at some vent, and with the heat, act like a blow torch, but I wouldn't expect a >BOOM!<
Hello folks,
Many years ago some friends drove a clapped-out 49 Dodge from Vancouver back to Ottawa. It had a lot of blow-by and when I had my head under the hood trying to get it started for the trip to the junkyard there was an explosion in the crankcase that blew the oil filler cap by my head. It caromed off the inside of the hood and landed on a nearby lawn. There was a good-sized dent on the inside of the hood so I presume it had a lot of force behind it. The conditions were similar to the current problem so there is a real risk. That is just my two cants worth. Good Luck!
Chris Bryant #19358
It's the vapors that are the most volatile not the liquid.
Drain the pan and let it sit for a while.
It's got to be the fuel pump. Maybe disconnect the pump and rig up an electric pump at a way to prove this.
Brian
Are you sure you are firing on all cylinders and not just washing one down with fuel with will seep past the rings into the pan. I would first assume the pump as well but you mentioned it was not running well due to a lifter issue.
You probably have the cleanest engine around.
Jeff
I agree that today's gasoline is dreadful compared to decades ago. While this might increase the frequency or the likelihood of the bottom seal of a fuel pump rupturing, I remember when the same thing happened to me once, back in the 1980s, with a "Brand X" heavyweight. It did not happen a second time, even owning it for several years thereafter. But, again, that was mid-1980s gas.
Alright guys, it was the fuel pump! I saw gas seepage from the outer top end of the pump and once removed, I saw, and smelled gas saturated all around and inside of the fuel pump housing.
A bad diaphram like I suspected. What irks me the most is how the pump only lasted a little over a year. I got a replacement one under warranty thankfully, but as I installed the new pump with everything connected properly, the engine wouldn't fire up.
So I added gas to the tank thinking maybe it's a bit low, then gave the carb some gas to sip, nothing, natha. I thought maybe I installed the lever on pump wrong, so I removed everything and did it all over again. Same thing, no gas getting to the carb. I removed the inline hose to the pump from the tank, and it had gas in it, so I was baffled on why the pump isn't creating any pressure.
Come to find out, the small inlet connector pipe that curves a bit was loose and came off! Just with the slightest wiggle, it pop right out of the fitting. >:(
Then to test to see if the pump is actually creating any suction, I put my fingers on the inlet and outlet fittings to feel if any vacuum is being created by pressing down on the lever, and no vacuum was felt at all.
Talk about a crappy replacement pump. Now I have to go back to the auto parts store a second time around which is wasting my time and has caused some frustration because I am searching high and low to figure out why the engine wont start.
New parts are so cheaply made these days no matter where they come from, and what is sad is that this pump is made in the U.S.
If you still have your original pump you should send it out for a rebuild to a quality shop.
I use a guy in NJ if you are interested I can and his info.
Brian
64Caddielacky,
Live and learn, unfortunately the parts replacement quality is the one of the most negative aspects of the hobby. Auto parts stores are conditioned on price, and they generally provide the cheapest crappiest part imaginable - I defy you to find a cheaper worse made one than their lowest price offering. It is not a great idea to buy critical parts especially for your Cadillac at a local chain auto parts store IMO.
You get what you pay for. Suffered the same problem with a PS pump, in that it worked and was under warranty but it was so loud, an audible tachometer form a local auto parts store. Got the good one for twice as much and all was good. The cheapest part you can buy, is the higher quality one because, it fits, works, and only has to be installed once.
I would get the pump rebuilt as Brian suggested or use a trusted supplier (for me that is USA Parts), but there are others as well. Probably a good idea to get spares too, alternator, water pump, starter, fuel pump, voltage regulator, and etc.
Quote from: 76eldo on February 26, 2016, 07:54:12 AM
If you still have your original pump you should send it out for a rebuild to a quality shop.
I use a guy in NJ if you are interested I can and his info.
Brian
I don't have the original pump unfortunately. When I first got the Cad slightly over a year ago, I replaced the fuel pump for similar reasons, plus the car was idling really bad and had performance problems. I winded up throwing it away! :( I know that was stupid on my part, but at the same time there was no way the car had the original fuel pump on there running on today's dry gas.
If this happens again, I am definitely going to just get it rebuilt using better quality parts. Yes I would appreciate it, thanks Brian. :D
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on February 26, 2016, 08:38:45 AM
64Caddielacky,
Live and learn, unfortunately the parts replacement quality is the one of the most negative aspects of the hobby. Auto parts stores are conditioned on price, and they generally provide the cheapest crappiest part imaginable - I defy you to find a cheaper worse made one than their lowest price offering. It is not a great idea to buy critical parts especially for your Cadillac at a local chain auto parts store IMO.
You get what you pay for. Suffered the same problem with a PS pump, in that it worked and was under warranty but it was so loud, an audible tachometer form a local auto parts store. Got the good one for twice as much and all was good. The cheapest part you can buy, is the higher quality one because, it fits, works, and only has to be installed once.
I would get the pump rebuilt as Brian suggested or use a trusted supplier (for me that is USA Parts), but there are others as well. Probably a good idea to get spares too, alternator, water pump, starter, fuel pump, voltage regulator, and etc.
Very true Scott, I am starting to find this out more and more lately. Even in the last 5 years, parts suppliers have been cheapening up their parts by using lower quality materials, and offshoring parts to China which has horrible track record in craftsmanship from what I can tell. Especially water pumps and anything that has a gear in it is most likely not put together well and correctly fitted. For instance, I bought a A/C compressor for my 94 Fleetwood probably 4 years ago from O'Reilly's and the company that made my new compressor was the brand "4 Seasons" which used to be O'Reilly's supplier. Well that compressor was made here in the U.S.back then, it was packaged nice and secure with plastic wrapping around the compressor itself, it showed good care protecting the compressor from shipping damage. Flash forward today, and guess where the new ones are built? The obvious answer of em all, China. Their Murray brand parts suck too and the way they package their water pumps is a joke. Just a box with a pump in it, no plastic wrap to protect it from dirt, or protection when the part is shipped and thrown around all over the place. :o
Napa is still good, but even there lines have been slipping for several years now.
I always usually carry spare parts around with me, but since I haven't had my 64 for that long, I am barely starting to acquire them. Plus I know a guy locally that has all kinds of spare Cadillac parts, but it's mostly trim and interior items.
These Days the replacement parts just aren't same, even if something happens to maybe the PS Gear Box, or the Starter on my Cad, I am just going to get them rebuilt. I don't trust new parts to last 30-40 years anymore. The material cost is too high for parts makers and they simply don't care about longevity, it's all about the bottom line.
Thank you guys for your help and input, it's much appreciated!
Here is the information: http://www.classiccadillacwaterpumpsforsale.com/
The owner's name is Carl. I stumbled into his shop when my brother purchased a Sebring convertible from him. He has a nice clean shop with dozens of boxes coming in and going out every day, and I had him redo my 1960 water pump and fuel pump.
Fair prices and a quick turnaround.
Contact him and he may have a vintage core to start from and he makes his own diaphragms from modern material that resists the damage that ethanol creates.
Good luck.
Brian
PS... Let him know that you got his name from the Cadillac Club so he knows we are supporting him.
I've been running the Made in USA Spectra Premium Fuel Pump in my 1964 Coupe DeVille since I rebuilt the engine in 2012 with excellent results. I also keep a few on hand and have sold a dozen or so to customers over the years with no issues reported. Part # for the 63 & 64 Cadillacs is B1297MP. I do agree things are becoming cheaper but if you dig around you can find some decent replacement parts. Here are pictures of the Spectra Premium pumps that look very similar to the originals I have pulled from many parts cars:
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t31.0-8/11950167_904618559585853_6750253492971453332_o.jpg)
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/t31.0-8/11060878_904618549585854_1445537632557711995_o.jpg)
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/t31.0-8/11927482_904618552919187_2801048637572447441_o.jpg)
Quote from: 76eldo on February 26, 2016, 11:26:24 PM
Here is the information: http://www.classiccadillacwaterpumpsforsale.com/
The owner's name is Carl. I stumbled into his shop when my brother purchased a Sebring convertible from him. He has a nice clean shop with dozens of boxes coming in and going out every day, and I had him redo my 1960 water pump and fuel pump.
Fair prices and a quick turnaround.
Contact him and he may have a vintage core to start from and he makes his own diaphragms from modern material that resists the damage that ethanol creates.
Good luck.
Brian
PS... Let him know that you got his name from the Cadillac Club so he knows we are supporting him.
Thanks again for that Brian, I'll definitely let him know the Cad Club (and you) told me about him and I'll keep him in mind when or if that time comes the new fuel pump decides to take a dump on me or god forbid, the water pump.
Quote from: Jason Edge on February 26, 2016, 11:46:44 PM
I've been running the Made in USA Spectra Premium Fuel Pump in my 1964 Coupe DeVille since I rebuilt the engine in 2012 with excellent results. I also keep a few on hand and have sold a dozen or so to customers over the years with no issues reported. Part # for the 63 & 64 Cadillacs is B1297MP. I do agree things are becoming cheaper but if you dig around you can find some decent replacement parts. Here are pictures of the Spectra Premium pumps that look very similar to the originals I have pulled from many parts cars:
Jason, Spectra Premium is a great brand and their parts are reasonably priced. When my 94 Fleetwood fuel pump died 5 years ago, I used SP fuel pump with positive results so far. My 64's pump looks exactly the same in the pics you posted, beside for the inlet pipe on mine is slightly longer and more downward facing because I have an engine from a 65 Caddy in my 64. The 64 pumps inlet pipe is positioned up too close to the block where it makes it very difficult to slide the inline fuel hose to the pipe with the risk of the hose being rubbed away from engine torque and vibrations over time. Not sure what exactly changed in 65 except for the frames and engine placement being different, but from what I can tell, the position of the inlet pipe design is a little different from a 64 429 fuel pump, but overall pump design and function are the same.
Quote from: Jason Edge on February 26, 2016, 11:46:44 PM
I've been running the Made in USA Spectra Premium Fuel Pump in my 1964 Coupe DeVille since I rebuilt the engine in 2012 with excellent results. I also keep a few on hand and have sold a dozen or so to customers over the years with no issues reported. Part # for the 63 & 64 Cadillacs is B1297MP. I do agree things are becoming cheaper but if you dig around you can find some decent replacement parts. Here are pictures of the Spectra Premium pumps that look very similar to the originals I have pulled from many parts cars:
If I'm not mistaken, Spectra Premium makes all the in-tank electric fuel pumps for GM.
Bobby
Sorry to bring back this thread from the dead, but gas is entering the oil yet again. :-\
As you guys already know, the fuel pump is new, but when I started to feel the engine idle being a little more shaky than usual, I decided to check the oil, and sure enough there's was no oil registering on the dipstick. There was some, but you can tell it was spotty on the dipstick and smell of gas is strong.
Now, I am not sure if the problem is the new fuel pump, but before I go start replacing parts and wasting money, is there a way to check to see if the carburetor could be leaking a lot of gas into the intake? The carb was rebuilt last year, and these engines love to run rich, as a matter of fact, if I even try to lean out the carb just a little, the engine idles terribly.
I know that I tend to need to hold my foot on the gas slightly when the engine is cold in order to keep the engine from stalling out, but will this cause the problem?
Did you replace the fuel pump with the Spectra unit recommended by Jason Edge? If not did you replace it with a warranty fuel pump that provided the one that failed in the first place? If you replaced the fuel pump with the parts store warranty product, then it probably is the fuel pump again. There was probably a bad run of them in China. They count on us driving our collector cars for 50 miles a year. Unfortunately a terrible part of the hobby. I have replaced parts two and three times every once and a while when I first started in the hobby.
If you did replace the fuel pump with the one Jason recommended, I got nothing and go ahead and stop reading here. It is not the unburned gas gets past the rings and into the sump during warm up suggestion.
Buy the fuel pump Jason recommended. He is quite accomplished on the 63 and 64 Cadillacs and I would trust the brand he recommends. The downside risk of using a faulty fuel pump far outweighs the cost of a quality fuel pump.
If so much gas went into the cylinders while it was being warmed up that not all of it burned and leaked past the rings down into the oil sump it is unlikely that the car would run at all. Accordingly, do not think that is it.
Good luck on this and keep us posted.
Thank you so much for the swift response Scott!
I replaced the pump under warranty, and it is made in the U.S. by Precision Fuel Pumps from O'Reilly, this is what I find disturbing. New USA parts being faulty right out of the box.
I will go ahead and get the Spectra brand pump, and do this all over again. I just wanted to make sure I didn't have to tear up my Carb in order to find out the cause.
In 2012 I bought 3 rebuilt alternators by AC Delco that were probably rebuilt back in the 1980's and were good for most Cadillacs. The time came to use one and it was DOA, same with the second one and so I took all three to my local electric shop and had them all rebuilt. (loss of manufacturing in America from the 1970's and 1980's was due to high labor cost AND POOR QUALITY - exemplified by these three alternators ) Replaced the original water pump on my 1970 RWD Cadillac 500 miles ago and it bearings went bad, had to replace it again. Point is one of the most frustrating part of the hobby is the quality of the replacement parts.
It is probably not best to stop by a local parts store because they think everyone wants price and the quality is the very lowest. I like Rock Auto because they offer choices of quality. In consideration of the labor and trouble parts are to buy, ship, install and test, it is most economical in terms of not installing work twice and not breaking down to buy the best part you can. I often use USA Parts, and I keep telling them to make sure it is quality, hope they are doing that.
Hope this resolves the problem!
How fast did the fuel get into the oil- at least to where you noticed it? 50 miles? Just idling in the garage?
Jeff
Quote from: 64CaddieLacky on March 19, 2016, 10:49:07 AM
Thank you so much for the swift response Scott!
I replaced the pump under warranty, and it is made in the U.S. by Precision Fuel Pumps from O'Reilly, this is what I find disturbing. New USA parts being faulty right out of the box.
I will go ahead and get the Spectra brand pump, and do this all over again. I just wanted to make sure I didn't have to tear up my Carb in order to find out the cause.
Did something change with the 429? I know some high performance engines have to run rich to the extent that the exhaust makes your eyes sting but that is not the case with my 61 390. I can pull any spark plug and the fouling on them appears like any modern car I have.
How many turns out are you getting on your mixture screws. 2 1/2 turns out from bottomed out is the baseline. If you can't get that far out and need the car to run richer to maintain idle, you've got another problem besides the fuel dumping into the oil. The fact that you need to hold your foot on the gas to maintain a cold idle tells me there's a vacuum leak somewhere also.
Even after sitting for a prolonged period of weeks, I can start the 61 with 1 or 2 pumps and immediately be able to drive.
Have you checked vacuum, timing, and compression on this engine? How many inches of vacuum are you pulling? What's is your timing set to? What's the compression?
I would suggest an electric fuel pump. What carburetor are you running? If its the Rochester, is it leaking down the intake?
Does you car have the AC type factory fuel filter? The proven electric fuel pump and safety switch setup I use is for a non return line system.
Quote from: Jeff Rose CLC #28373 on March 19, 2016, 06:33:07 PM
How fast did the fuel get into the oil- at least to where you noticed it? 50 miles? Just idling in the garage?
Jeff
After few trips, but more so just recently. I added 2 gallons of VP Racing 110 Leaded octane gas the other day and drove it a good 20 miles, but I am not sure if the lead in the gas could cause harm to the fuel pump. I noticed the gas in the oil after checking the oil on the dipstick.
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on March 19, 2016, 07:02:47 PM
Did something change with the 429? I know some high performance engines have to run rich to the extent that the exhaust makes your eyes sting but that is not the case with my 61 390. I can pull any spark plug and the fouling on them appears like any modern car I have.
How many turns out are you getting on your mixture screws. 2 1/2 turns out from bottomed out is the baseline. If you can't get that far out and need the car to run richer to maintain idle, you've got another problem besides the fuel dumping into the oil. The fact that you need to hold your foot on the gas to maintain a cold idle tells me there's a vacuum leak somewhere also.
Even after sitting for a prolonged period of weeks, I can start the 61 with 1 or 2 pumps and immediately be able to drive.
Have you checked vacuum, timing, and compression on this engine? How many inches of vacuum are you pulling? What's is your timing set to? What's the compression?
I am not sure what changed besides for the pistons, crankshaft and cam. The engine does put out more power than most other engines for it's time including the 390, and it's my guess they needed to run rich because of the increase in HP.
Compression is strong, each cylinder has 165 lbs (from what I recall) of compression, no drops of any kind. Timing is set at 5 degrees and vacuum is a little shaky on the gauge but reads about 18.
I actually have to turn the mixture screws on the Carter carb almost all the way out, a good 5 or 6 full turns just to get the engine to idle somewhat smooth. There's no smoke from the exhaust, so that is a good sign.
Other than the gas in the oil, the engine runs great.
Quote from: russ austin on March 19, 2016, 09:13:38 PM
I would suggest an electric fuel pump. What carburetor are you running? If its the Rochester, is it leaking down the intake?
Does you car have the AC type factory fuel filter? The proven electric fuel pump and safety switch setup I use is for a non return line system.
Yes it has the factory fuel filter, I was thinking about this, if I keep having trouble with these mechanical fuel pumps, then I am definitely going to go this route.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on March 19, 2016, 02:41:15 PM
In 2012 I bought 3 rebuilt alternators by AC Delco that were probably rebuilt back in the 1980's and were good for most Cadillacs. The time came to use one and it was DOA, same with the second one and so I took all three to my local electric shop and had them all rebuilt. (loss of manufacturing in America from the 1970's and 1980's was due to high labor cost AND POOR QUALITY - exemplified by these three alternators ) Replaced the original water pump on my 1970 RWD Cadillac 500 miles ago and it bearings went bad, had to replace it again. Point is one of the most frustrating part of the hobby is the quality of the replacement parts.
It is probably not best to stop by a local parts store because they think everyone wants price and the quality is the very lowest. I like Rock Auto because they offer choices of quality. In consideration of the labor and trouble parts are to buy, ship, install and test, it is most economical in terms of not installing work twice and not breaking down to buy the best part you can. I often use USA Parts, and I keep telling them to make sure it is quality, hope they are doing that.
Hope this resolves the problem!
Well I just ordered the Spectra pump today, so I'll keep everyone posted on how the repair turns out. The very old stock new parts was better made, but you're right even US made parts can be bad. IT all depends on who makes it, and the materials that were used.
Quote from: 76eldo on February 26, 2016, 11:26:24 PM
Here is the information: http://www.classiccadillacwaterpumpsforsale.com/
The owner's name is Carl. I stumbled into his shop when my brother purchased a Sebring convertible from him. He has a nice clean shop with dozens of boxes coming in and going out every day, and I had him redo my 1960 water pump and fuel pump.
Fair prices and a quick turnaround.
Contact him and he may have a vintage core to start from and he makes his own diaphragms from modern material that resists the damage that ethanol creates.
Good luck.
Brian
PS... Let him know that you got his name from the Cadillac Club so he knows we are supporting him.
I can tell you from experience that Carl will go out of his way to help solve problems and recommend the very best options to create/repair your parts. He built and installed a new bearing for my '37 fan and he built and installed a modern bearing within my water pump - now no leaks and no vibration. I'm now sending him my fuel pump, generator and starter following certain tests he recommends to determine what needs to be done. I can't believe I found someone who knows his trade so well and is so honest - wish I could say the same for the man who "restored" all these items during my car's recent restoration.
Ty Stinson
Your post reads like there may be a vacuum leak, as that is what a fluttering gauge usually indicates. It does not seem like a vacuum leak would cause fuel in oil, or half the people I know what suffer same problem. You should find the leak, just remember any original (or of unknown history) vacuum hose that may look good is not and should be replaced. Check around base of carb too.
Not familiar with what the carb adjustment screws on a 429 mean in terms of number of turns in and out, as my work is all with Quadra-jets on 472/500 blocks, however they do not seem to correlate from one Cadillac to the other. Meaning one car may run perfect with 2 turns out another perfect at 3.5 turns out. I use a vacuum gauge and ear to set mine.
The Carter carb is not going to drip fuel into the intake while sitting, unless there is a crack somewhere at the base.
6 turns out at the idle mixture screws is way too much. Initial settings is 1 1/2 out. I have mine very close to that setting. Have you played with the large central screw between the idle mixture screws? Its the idle, and one affects the other.
Forgot to ask is this an a/c car with a return line back to tank. If not that is always a good idea to prevent vapor lock and keep the fuel pressure from building between pump and carb, which may put pressure enough at pump to leak into oil.
I do not like an electric fuel pump at all. If you go electric you need to make it so your daughter can drive the car without special operation instructions. By daughter I mean a person unfamiliar with your car, as sometimes this happens. The pump only operates in run position, there is some means to relieve fuel pressure and send it back to tank (mechanical fuel pump varied with rpm, electric is constant) such as fuel return line, the pump must stop if the engine is not running but the ignition is on (daughters do this to listen to radio, not aware of accessory position), and etc. The good thing about the electric fuel pump is this fuel mixing with oil via fuel pump issue would go away.
20 miles is awfully fast.
When you pull the fuel pump, look at the plunger arm. It it nice and clean? If so then I would think fuel is indeed leaking past the diaphragm and washing the oil off the plunger arm.
Can also pull the carb (when full of fuel), lift it half an inch and slide a piece of cardboard under it and then just let it sit on the manifold as normal. After a while, pull the cardboard and see if there is any fuel staining on it which would indicate fuel leaking out the bottom.
Jeff
That is a good idea Jeff has about cardboard under carb.
Quote from: Jeff Rose CLC #28373 on March 20, 2016, 07:35:45 PM
20 miles is awfully fast.
When you pull the fuel pump, look at the plunger arm. It it nice and clean? If so then I would think fuel is indeed leaking past the diaphragm and washing the oil off the plunger arm.
Can also pull the carb (when full of fuel), lift it half an inch and slide a piece of cardboard under it and then just let it sit on the manifold as normal. After a while, pull the cardboard and see if there is any fuel staining on it which would indicate fuel leaking out the bottom.
Jeff
That is a clever idea! I'll try it out. I just want to get to the bottom of this problem.
Scott, my car does have A/C and has the return line on the fuel filter.
As for the carb mixture screws, why does it take so many turns in order for the engine to run smooth? I knew when I went to adjust the mixture screws, a good 2 1/2 turns out should've done the job, but at 5 or 6 turns out something isn't quite right.
I did adjust the curb idle screw because on a cold start, the engine would rev insanely high with the choke closed, so I turned the screw in 2 full turns to lower the idle and this helped keep the engine rpms in a more sane level at start up. I might need to tinker with the carb again. The big center idle air screw just increases the rpms, and doesn't affect actual idle quality. In the shop manual it even states to keep the air idle screw at the lowest levels as possible, while getting the idle mixture screws in balance to increase the idle rpm while still maintaining a smooth idle.
While we are talking about the carb, can anyone help me figure out how to get transmission from jerking harshly from P to D to R. I know when I adjust the throttle rod on the carb to lower the idle/pedal level. it helps, but then the idle is too low. Instead of a smooth soft transition from P to R to D, the trans jerks hard where it almost feels like something might break. Other than that the transmission shifts very smooth with no noise. BTW the vacuum modulator is new and I still have this problem before I replaced it.
Sounds like you're going about your adjustments all wrong.
There should be a screw on the linkage on the side of the carburetor for the fast idle cam to set your fast idle speed.
You should not be using the throttle rod to make any idle adjustments. If anything do this with the linkage disconnected to ensure the throttle plates are fully closed and then adjust the rod so that it enters the carburetor linkage with the throttle plates fully closed and the choke open.
All idle adjustments should be done with a vacuum gauge, tachometer, and the three screws on the front of the carburetor.
If the carb was making the car run so rich that gas was washing past the rings and filling the crankcase with fuel the car would have to also be fouling plugs, flooding out, and the exhaust would be extremely rich and disgusting.
The fuel pump is the only place where there is a potential for fuel to get into the oil.
As I suggested, if you get an original fuel pump rebuilt properly and try that, you can rule out the fuel pump.
If the diaphragm is torn or defective an electric pump installed temporarily with the fuel pump connections bypassed entirely will prove that it's not the carb.
Brian
I'm going to have to do a carb adjustment after I install the fuel pump and double check for leaks all around. As frustrating as it is, I find this challenge fun and take it as a learning experience.. Thank god these cars are easy to work on as well.
I'm also getting tired of replacing the oil over and over again. It's just another unneeded added expense :-[
The electric pump route is my last resort.
I finally found an old fuel pump with the weep holes. I don’t see those holes on the new ones on Rock Auto. The pump I have is for the 472 which is different from yours.
The weep holes are circled in red.
Also as I remember the gasket had a smaller center hole that formed a dam to help keep and gas leaks from getting into the block.
Thanks for that Glen 8)
I didn't even know they were designed like that. Are they simply holes that look drilled? If so, I might just drill a small hole like that on the side to save me the grief and expense of a possibly damaged engine.
Don't drill a new fuel pump.
An electric fuel pump has been given a bag rap in this thread. If the electric fuel pump is installed incorrectly, then its a big no no. A safety device must be installed with the fuel pump. The latest devise out is great. At ignition on, the pump primes for 3 seconds, then shuts off. It the device senses an engine start, it continues to pump fuel. If the engine quits, the device shuts off the pump.
I have even gone as far as gutting the mechanical fuel pump, and leaving the plumbing in place, while the electric pump is discretely hidden in front of the gas tank. It looks stock, and performs better than stock.
There are pumps out there, that don't require a return line. Been running mine for years now.
Russ. What is this electric pump of which you speak?
I know of folks wiring in intertia switches from junkyards and/or an oil pressure cutoff switch.
This sounds like a great out-of -the-box solution to all of that.
The electric fuel pump is a Carter, part # P60430
The controller is from Revolution Electronics. Fuel Pump Safety Switch 12003
If it was my car I would drill the hole. Just be sure to not damage anything inside and don’t drill into the pump chamber. The hole should only go into the area where the pump lever is and it will drain any leaking fuel before it goes into the block. Keep in mind that hole is only an indicator of a bad diaphragm and is not a cure.
If the hole reveals a leak, then you should rebuild the pump. In the attached picture, is that the correct orientation of the pump when it is installed? Does yours have the opening indicated by the arrow? Does it connect with the chamber where the lever is? If so it should allow any leaking gas out.
Also The gasket I recall getting in the day had a smaller opening, something like the second picture. That helps prevent gas from getting into the block.
You know I just forgot to mention to you guys that my 64 has a 65 engine in it. Everything is pretty much the same besides for the water pump design, oil filter housing, and fuel pump. Somebody dropped it in long before I got the car.
The fuel pumps on the 64 and 65 look identical, except for the inlet pipes are slightly different, including the location of the outlet connector. Well because the engine from a 65 has slight differences in terms of location of the engine mounts as the 65's have a perimeter frame and the 64's are X-frames, the way the engine sits in my 64 causes the inlet pipe to hit the cross member on both style pumps. So everytime before installing the pumps, I have to adjust them by loosing up the bottom screws, and turning the housing at a certain angle in order to be able to connect the fuel hose to the inlet pipe without any obstructions..
By doing this, can it damage the pumps diaphragm? The only way for the pump to fit properly in my car is by loosening up the screws and turning the housing slightly.
BTW I appreciate the info Russ regarding the electric pumps.
Glen, the pump I just got yesterday looks exactly like the one in the photo. The gasket doesn't cover up the areas that are highlighted square just the outside.
One more tidbit of info on the elec pump. The small block Chevy block off plate fits like it was made for it.
Go for it, you wont regret it.
I have had 5 Driver 1964's since 1996 and never used anything except the mechanical pumps and would never go the electric fuel pump route. I believe there are only 2 areas you could mix fuel with oil, either at the fuel pump or at the carb. If the Spectra Fuel pump doesn't cure your problem, then you more than likely have a problem on top of the engine at the carburetor, and an electric fuel pump is not going to cure the leaking carb problem. Per shop manual, the fuel pump should deliver 5 1/4 to 6 1/2 psi. The Spectra I have used is rated at 5.3 to 6.5 psi, which is the factory range. If an electric fuel pump added any performance benefit, I would definitely consider one, but they are just pushing fuel to the carb, and a mechanical pump will do that just fine.
Hello 64CaddieLacky,
Before a trial, the attorneys for both the plaintiff and the defendant go through a process called discovery, during which all evidence is made known to both sides. Likewise, when trying to diagnose car trouble, all the evidence should be presented.
Your post, if I understand it correctly, states that you loosen the screws that hold the two halves of the pump housing so that you can rotate slightly the bottom half of the pump to clear the frame. If I recall correctly, the metal diaphragm is integral with the rubber gasket that is sandwiched between the pump halves. It is possible that rotating the pump housing could damage the diaphragm/gasket assembly. Conceivably, if rotating the pump housing caused a tear in the gasket, the pump might actaully be pumping gas into the block despite no outward signs of a malfunction.
The design of the front cover of the '65 is probably preventing the use of the '64 pump. You may want to research pumps from other GM applications to see if another pump will fit (and work) without you having to rotate the pump body halves.
Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter
I have to agree with Christopher here. Something may not be sealing well when you rotate the pump halves for clearance.
If you have a clearance issue, although I'm not a huge fan of electric pumps, especially installed without any safety devices to prevent fuel from being pumped while the vehicle is not running, in your application, this may solve one problem for you.
There could be other issues at bay here also, so it may not be a cure all, but, eliminates one questionable part of the equation.
If you are running a 1965 front engine cover on your 1965 429, you should be using the 1965 fuel pump. The Spectra part # is B1181MP, which is different from the B1297MP # I had provided for a 1964 setup. The 1964 front engine cover has casting # 1482767 and timing block slightly to the passenger side of crank. The 1965 front engine cover has timing block slightly to driver side since water pump hose connector was on passenger side in 1965. I do not have the casting # for the 1965 front cover. It would be a shame to Band-Aid a case of simply using the incorrect fuel pump with an electric fuel pump. Get the right part, and you should have no issues with the fuel pump.
For reference, Here is a picture of a 1964 front engine cover:
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.ning.com%2Ffiles%2FJOi7zGa2fuyh2xLwPNWstuMD4avJYJaBP9YLZaEeJL6g%2A6ONEQNCMfcECd%2AV3%2A29cYwZunx3mENZM6y38XofreHtbQpG9kZe%2F100_0723.JPG%3Fwidth%3D690%26amp%3Bheight%3D600&hash=99bfbe7c8dc94a1d097e50786cc08dc13cb7aeda)
and here is an illustration of the 65 front cover showing timing block on opposite side:
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.ning.com%2Ffiles%2FWEVt2TB6eO4gh1YGqM%2AxDHMEGU9qenj5fAK9Lpoqgt6r-ZKi1Xwpx4SX4R1VpSigN1%2AkHfIFnDsCbCGS3LtMYKdCpeaviawT%2F1966WaterPumpandFrontCover.JPG%3Fwidth%3D510%26amp%3Bheight%3D600&hash=ec08e5988ce4e4b7602f7e2d0ed497b2efbceb84)
Thanks for valuable info guys. I did use a 65 fuel pump before, actually the last 2 I put on are for a 65 429 but I still had to rotate the 65 pump halves in order to clear the frame. Using a 64 pump allows me to only turn the pump halves from a 12 o'clock position, to a 3 o'clock position, while using the 65 pump, I have to rotate it all the way to a 7 o'clock position so the inlet pipe can clear the block/frame. So the less turning the less possible damage that can occur to the to rubber seal/spring and diaphragm.
So no matter what, I can't use either a 64 or 65 pump straight outta the box. I am very careful to not twist too hard or allow the spring to completely come apart when I do turn it. I also make sure that the rubber pieces are lined up with the screws so everything is back in place properly. I have had no issues with the car starting or ever stalling out, so the performance factor and drivability experience of the pump has never been a factor.
If I continue to have trouble with pumps leaking gas, I will send it out to get it re-built from sources here specifically for the unique placement of the engine and frame on my 64 so I don't have any clearance issues as my car has sorta been frankensteined ;D
But I hope using the Spectra brand, I wont have any future problems.
Thanks fellow Cadillackers!
I think the most logical thing for you to do here is to send the pump out and have it rebuilt by a reputible facility....... But have that shop assemble it in the orientation you want.
I would say you have little to no chance of having a leak free unit if you disassemble it.
Or, find a smaller mechanical pump from a different vehicle and install it. I am sure you could go to your local napa and pull a few out of the box to see them. Be sure to check the specs to be sure it will put out enough volume.
Jeff
After reading this now I understand why you are having so much trouble.
You can't undo the halves of the fuel pump and twist things around and expect it to work correctly.
Have you looked into the possibility of jacking up the engine after removing some bolts on the mounts to get clearance in order to install it? I am not familiar with the mounts on your car but on my 60 there are two nuts, one on each side that once removed would allow you to raise the engine several inches. Maybe this would give you the clearance needed?
If you can't get this thing to fit, get the block off plate, install an electric fuel pump with a regulator and wire it to a power source that comes on with the key. Mount it down on the frame towards the rear of the car, insulated by rubber washers to keep it quiet with a ground strap to the frame. You can also look into wiring it in with the oil pressure sender so that if the engine stalls the pump stops but the needle and seat in the carb shuts off the gas flow unless your electric pump is too strong.
If you keep getting gas in the crankcase you are either going to damage your engine or blow the thing up if the vapors ignite somehow. You can actually blow out the side of the block or blow the oil pan right off of the engine if the crankcase fills up with gas and gas vapors.
People will tell you fifty different things about the perils of an electric fuel pump but virtually every car built in the last 25 years has one and it's in the gas tank!
Good luck with this situation.
Brian
I would take the pump apart and see if the diaphragm is damaged.
Most of the problems I hear of with electric pumps are caused by putting in a pump with too much output pressure.
If I do go with the electric pump, I'm definitely going to get a fuel pump regulator. I think I have all the info I could ever ask for and then some from everyone here! :)
BTW, I've tried looking up different fuel pumps that could work on my car, but the arm was either too long or too short, and even shaped a little differently to fit right.
So in closing, I'll just have to monitor the oil more closely, readjust the carb and check that for leaks, and because of my frankensteined 64, the electric fuel pump will be my next option if indeed the new mechanical pump develops a leak.
I missed that you are partially dissembling the pump and reassembling it in place. That has go to be the problem. Removing the engine...whatever it takes to install the fuel pump without dissembling it, rotating or otherwise is what needs to be done. Hopefully just jacking the engine up works.
The fuel pumps on the 472 engine were sealed and not able to be disassembled, so did not think that was a possibility until looking at the picture of the pump.
I'm with Jason and others, these cars were not designed for electric fuel pumps, and recommend you stay with mechanical. There are all electric fuel pumps in the gas tank of cars made for the last 20 years, but they are fuel injected, not carbureted. After all it just cannot be that a 1964 Cadillac with a fuel return line cannot be made to work with a mechanical fuel pump. Do not give up.
Next time, will read more closely.
If you go with the electric pump I mentioned, it is pre set for the correct pressure.
The bottom of the fuel pump is just a housing for the valves. Reclocking it does nothing to the rubber diaphragm. As long as the diaphragm is not moved with the lower housing.
Quote from: russ austin on March 24, 2016, 09:03:42 AM
The bottom of the fuel pump is just a housing for the valves. Reclocking it does nothing to the rubber diaphragm. As long as the diaphragm is not moved with the lower housing.
Therein lies the rub. If the diaphragm sticks to the bottom plate it can get twisted with the plate. The procedure should be to separate the bottom plate by about a quarter of an inch and check to be sure the diaphragm is not stuck to the plate before rotating the plate.
Even though in theory the housing can be disassembled, do not do it. Figure another way. The idea that two fuel pumps did not work for you installing them this way is the big clue.
Some good news to report. I just purchased a 65 fuel pump (returned the 64 pump) that is the Spectra brand and for some odd and great reason, the position of the inlet pipe is perfectly set on this one!! The other 65 pump I had on before wasn't in the correct position when from the start.
I don't have to turn anything now. So a 64 pump will not work on my car.
Now the bigger issue is, why won't my engine run smoothly unless the idle/mixture screws on the carb are turned outward a full 5 turns? I checked the vacuum readings and the gauge is steady at 18 HG with no fluctuations. My concerns with this is excessive unburned fuel getting into the crankcase.
Another thing, when I lowered the RPMs to 480 in D as the manual states, the engine runs too rough, bumping up the engine speed to around 500-510 in D is the sweet spot. Not sure if this makes any difference or not but it could be a problem.
Was the Carter AFB the same from the early 60's on through, until Cadillac decided to use Rochester's only? I was wondering because my engine is a 65, it's using a 64 Carter carb. Where there any changes made to the carbs over the years?
A 5% increase in idle speed should not matter. It may even be that the tachometer is 5% too low anyway. Mainly worked on 67 Caddy carbs and newer (Q-jet) and an out of adjustment idle screw mixture did not result in gas in the oil. Plus when setting these screws as you did, I use a vacuum gauge and set it to highest reading and smoothness, regardless of number of turns suggested in shop manual (although if I am way off the factory setting, try to find out why). Lets see if this new fuel pump that fits perfectly cures the problem, last time it only took 20 miles. It is great the way you report back so quickly. Keep us posted.
If your problem was that the carb was making the car run so rich as to dump enough fuel into the cylinders to wash past the rings your car would be running horrible, the exhaust smell would be burning your eyes and nose and you would be flooding out and fouling plugs.
You may have solved your fuel pump issue now that you are not taking it halfway apart to fit it to your car.
Make sure you have the correct carb for the engine that's in your car and think about getting it properly rebuilt by a professional.
Brian
Carters from 1958 thru 1966 are basically the same with the exception of the physical Climatic Control. You say you have the idle adjustment screws out 5 turns. Where is the air horn (large center screw between the idle/air screws) adjusted to?
Possible vacuum leak, if that much idle mix screw is used.
Hello 64CaddieLacky,
If the car idles well with the idle mixture adjusting screws opened up significantly more than original specification, this indicates to me that the car is requiring more fuel in the air/fuel mixture at idle. Why would the car require more fuel? Most likely because it is sucking in more air at idle, and it is idling lean until the mixture screws are opened up. If the mixture screws are opened up as far as they are (at idle), and you do not notice an increase in brown smoke coming out the tailpipe, then the idle air/fuel mixture is probably correct for the condition of the carburetor and the car.
Idle passages are very small, so in relation to the mixture screw adjustments, a small air leak - as Russ indicated - is all that is needed to change the air/fuel mixture ratio. If the carburetor was ever rebuilt, and the throttle plates were removed and not replaced precisely, this could be a source of an air leak. If the throttle plate shaft, or throttle body where the shaft passes through, is worn, this could also be a point at which a greater amount of air could be pulled into the engine at idle. Any defect in the carburetor to intake mounting surfaces, or gasket, or attaching fasteners (over-torqued?) could result in an air leak.
As Brian suggested, having the carburetor rebuilt by a competent rebuilder can help with these issues. Good luck.
Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter
Quote from: savemy67 on March 27, 2016, 11:07:59 AM
Hello 64CaddieLacky,
If the car idles well with the idle mixture adjusting screws opened up significantly more than original specification, this indicates to me that the car is requiring more fuel in the air/fuel mixture at idle. Why would the car require more fuel? Most likely because it is sucking in more air at idle, and it is idling lean until the mixture screws are opened up. If the mixture screws are opened up as far as they are (at idle), and you do not notice an increase in brown smoke coming out the tailpipe, then the idle air/fuel mixture is probably correct for the condition of the carburetor and the car.
Idle passages are very small, so in relation to the mixture screw adjustments, a small air leak - as Russ indicated - is all that is needed to change the air/fuel mixture ratio. If the carburetor was ever rebuilt, and the throttle plates were removed and not replaced precisely, this could be a source of an air leak. If the throttle plate shaft, or throttle body where the shaft passes through, is worn, this could also be a point at which a greater amount of air could be pulled into the engine at idle. Any defect in the carburetor to intake mounting surfaces, or gasket, or attaching fasteners (over-torqued?) could result in an air leak.
As Brian suggested, having the carburetor rebuilt by a competent rebuilder can help with these issues. Good luck.
Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter
Thanks for that Chris. I do not notice any black or brown smoke coming from the tailpipe as of now. The exhaust actually smells pretty normal to me. Not too rich of a smell, or anything that is pungent.
I am guessing maybe because of the high compression of the 429's and the use of today's gas can cause changes and differences in the way the carbs react now compared to the old gas that was a lot more potent thus didn't need as much fuel for combustion to take place.
A vacuum leak is very possible, this is something that I am going to have to search for.
The carb was rebuilt recently, and cleaned up very well. I might need to take a look at the throttle plates that could be sticking open as mentioned. The Air screw is in the middle of the carb and I had to adjust this screw to slightly increase the RPMs which did somewhat help in idle smoothness.
It's good to know that the RPM differences from the shop manual, to what I set it at isn't an issue.