http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadillac-Fleetwood-/381753732905?forcerrptr=true&hash=item58e24baf29:g:I0sAAOSwi0RXxfqB&item=381753732905
$15k and the reserve is not met. I'm stunned. Seems a little pricey. Scot is yet to acquire a Fleetwood......
;)
It's a nice looking ride in pictures. If nothing else, it looks like it was well taken care of. The pattern on the seats is sharp.......
Bobby
I can't speak to what the seller has the reserve at however look at their ad on Hemmings....
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/cadillac/fleetwood/1869171.html
$30k for any '69/'70 Fleetwood is outrageous money let alone a blue on black example with a repaint! This dealer has notoriously outrageous prices, as exemplified by this 1970 Fleetwood. If it were a triple black, all original car I could see the price being much more justified, however this dealer is dreaming at $30k!
Jared,
I guess he came to his senses and realized that 30K is over-the-top. That's why t's now at a more realistic 15K. Probably tired of looking at it.
Bobby
Quote from: Bobby B on September 06, 2016, 11:03:12 PM
Jared,
I guess he came to his senses and realized that 30K is over-the-top. That's why t's now at a more realistic 15K. Probably tired of looking at it.
Bobby
Bobby,
If he were at $15k I don't think that would be very unrealistic. However, the reserve is still not met at $15,300 which begs the question... What is the reserve? I have a feeling it is in the low to mid-twenties!
Jared
Looks good in pictures but at that price expect perfection. Missing hood emblem, front fender winged crests, Fleetwood lettering on front fender, deVille rear bumper back up lamp trim plates. Engine not correct shade of blue. The interior sure looks preserved however. My 1st Cadillac was a '70'Fleetwood, black with beige leather. A genuine 39,000 mile Beverly Hills car. Kept it for a few years then sold it to get my first Corvette. It was a grand driving car.
I see no options except a/c & tilt wheel, though the a/c may be standard on Fleetwood. Seller says controlled dif, who knows. Shouldn't there be a Fleetwood insignia on the right side of the bumper?
If my wife would let me, and if I had room for a large care, I'd be a buyer @ $8k to $9k, but it wouldn't fit in todays parking spaces.
:o
It's not very hard for people to get their friends to bump the bids on a car to get it closer to the reserve.
The car is already way above what I would value it at, and the fact that it's a repaint could mean anything.
See what happens when the auction ends.
Brian
so you saying bids are meaningless, but it is meaningful when money is actually exchanged?
As Brian says, we'll see....
I'm out at $9k.
On a car auction on ebay, the bid amounts really mean nothing until the car meets the reserve. You can get two or three people with reasonable feedback numbers to bid it up to just under the reserve. The scheme is that some rube will come along, see that people are fighting over this great deal, and want to get in on it.
I am sure it works sometimes, and maybe this car and the bids are legit, but it seems way overpriced to me. If it was an original paint time capsule car then the price can skyrocket, but this in not that.
Brian
You're very correct Chris - it's all speculation until money changes hands.
It's a very beautiful car, at least in the photos. And just 17,000 miles. There has been sentiment expressed in this message board that the 1970 with the 472 and the TH400 Turbo Hydramatic is one on the most desirable models from the 60s and 70s era. What would be the cost of getting and adding the missing trim items mentioned above? I'd note that almost 239,000 1970s were made, and 17,300 of these were Fleetwood Broughams. So parts may not be as hard to get as for other desirable models from the 60s (just speculation here).
It's too bad that it isn't the original paint. Can anyone comment on this statement in the description:
The body, powertrain and interior are 100% original, with one paint re-spray on the body, due to Cadillac experiencing a problem with formulation on their #29 blue.
This is a Brougham, and that model came standard with very nice equipment (e.g., carpeted footrests, adjustable reading lights). Assuming it has never been in an accident and that the repaint is top quality, it seems a good buy at $15,300 with that mileage.
John Emerson
1952 Cadillac 6219X
It would be great to add a 1970 Fleetwood to my 1970 Cadillac collection, but at 3 I'm good, and may even sell one of them. For my purposes, 2 or 3 is just about right. Maybe will change my mind later.
Glad to see 1970 Cadillacs are going up in price, as they are very nice driving cars. Like contributors to this thread noticed front, side and even rear trim items are missing and it was repainted. Obviously the undercarriage has been sprayed too. Classic car dealers who do this kind of work are very conscious of the cost of prep work. It seems unlikely it would be profitable to properly prepare the undercarriage to accept black paint (removal of grease, scrape loos paint and etc. It was certainly less costly to eliminate all the trim items too for the re-paint. The exterior cosmetics are in question and as always you need to see the car.
On bidding for e-bay after trying to sell two cars on e-bay (recently posted back in May or June of 2016), the bidding is beyond meaningless. There are a bunch of 12 year olds bidding for sport with no intention of paying. Then friends of the seller with not intention of buying also bid is my experience. If I was interested in an e-bay car, I would go see it and put my bid in within the last minutes as in the past. I never take the 2nd chance offer for these reasons.
The way I sell a car on e-bay is to say in the description, all bids where you did not come and see the car will be cancelled.
To fix this e-bay should make any bidder on a car pay $100 that will be refunded if they are not the high bidder. The $100 of the high bidder will automatically go to seller and credited against the cost of the car. The seller can refund it if the car does bid high enough - or something like that so scam bidders with no intention of paying at the end suffer a cost to play their game.
I smell fraudulent bidding. Two of the big bidders have no other history with any other sellers in the past 30 days. 100% with this seller. Anymore I always check this.
I wasn't born yesterday. This kind of stuff is what makes people think the market is stronger than it is and has turned me sour on e-bay. I've had guys standing right in front of me on their cell phone telling their buddies to "bid it up, let's see if we can't get it over the reserve". It was a 450 Mercedes.
Plenty of ways to game the system. And folks think it's all just fine to do so. Buyer beware.
John,
To answer your questions:
1. Never heard of "#29 blue formulation problem" at Cadillac for 1970, this certainly would have come up before, and I doubt it is true.
2. The missing trim items would be surprising expensive, as the individual "Fleetwood" letters each require their own hole to mount and fender would have to be carefully drilled to do it right - very expensive labor. Same with front fenders, holes have to be drilled on leading edge of fender. The rear bumper has to come off the car to install the Fleetwood aluminum bumper fillers. The cost of the trim in good shape also is expensive. Those rear bumper fillers are going to be $300 minimum, plus it has to be painted same color as body. Guessing this would actually cost way over $1,000 maybe $2,000 to a job that is commensurate with a pristine 17k miles original car. Frankly the paint job is unlikely to be that great.
Repainted it is, but it the quality of paint appears to have been cost-no-object which could easily have run to $10K alone.
Since ALL Fleetwood identification trim items are absent, I strongly suspect it was personal decision on the part of the owner, but a shame nonetheless it had not been reinstalled given the overall quality of the vehicle.
Given what ~ $15 buys today, the overall worthy condition of the car, the fact that a substantial portion of the bidding audience is unfamiliar with all particular details of many vintage cars OR care little even if they did - there is every possibility the bidding is genuine from where I stand.
69/70 Fleetwoods in condition such as this car few and far between and $15K would not BEGIN to scrape the surface of the cost to restore one either.
FTR - Air conditioning did not become standard equipment until January 1, 1974 however, air did become standard on Series 75 only - beginning in the 1966 model year.
Thanks.
The one item no one has mentioned is the vacuum canister which should be suspended from the cross bar on the driver side of the engine. Rear air ride was standard on the 1970 Fleetwood Brougham. It looks as though it has been replaced with some sort of valve stem, possibly to inflated rear shocks (???) I have looked at other cars from this seller and they are always priced at the super high end of the scale. I would never trust a 17,000 mile car with a repaint and numerous exterior trim items missing and incorrect bumper. As has been mentioned several times previously, E-bay money is just "monopoly money" until the car is delivered and the check is in the bank. I own a black on black 1970 Fleetwood Brougham with the gray full fabric interior with 39,000 miles and as much as I would like to think that it's value was $20,000, I don't think the market is there yet.
number 29 formulation problem and you dignify this seller with any consideration that any thing he states about the car could be true?
the paint code 29 problem was after 45 or so years and throw in some rust, dents, use, whatever it may have lost a bit of its sheen
No apparent rust bubbling under the roof is a good sign. I've seen many otherwise near-mint originals where this is not the case.
Air "suspension" items removed and substituted with regular manual air shocks is stated in presentation.
Why the car was repainted is anybody's guess and GM lacquers of the era were notorious for going bad - especially metallics - even on the finest originals with very low mileage. That a near-50 year car needed a refinish is really no surprise - even if it only spent several cumulative years outside.
Seller's feedback rating is enviable and comments left by buyers are overwhelmingly positive. If there's evidence to support the seller is not above board, I don't see it.
I think its time to complete my 59 Biarritz project and retire from hobby.
I am overly negative
there are collectors that will appreciate a car like this Fleetwood
if you have nothing good to say ??, so enjoy my friends !
You can see tell tale wrinkles in the vinyl top where it was probably lifted to fix rust. I have done this before and know what the wrinkles look like.
It's not a bad car, for like $10,000.
Brian
I have visited this dealer before. They primarily sell restored and modified muscle cars. The car was probably purchased as is and the seller is unaware of some details pointed out on this forum.
What about the rare "double walled" Y pipe?
Never heard of such a thing....
Am I off base on this?
::)
Quote from: wrefakis on September 07, 2016, 02:27:03 PM
I think its time to complete my 59 Biarritz project and retire from hobby.
I am overly negative
there are collectors that will appreciate a car like this Fleetwood
if you have nothing good to say ??, so enjoy my friends !
I wouldn't say negative...I'd say you call it as you see it. No bs, just straight up as it should be.
SHILL BIDDING: My policy is to list cars NO RESERVE with the minimum bid as the very LEAST that would be accepted. No shenanigans. Best part for the seller is he's not answering numerous requests from people only interested in paying about 1/2 of desired amount anyway.
This fleetwood is a very nice example with respectable workmanship. I agree the vinyl top likely had corrosion issues under the top necessitating a repaint. It would be a worth while investment to acquire the correct trim for the seller. The rear bumper plate might be acceptable just painting the existing ones body color if originals could not be found. The option list is short on this one...only a 2 way front seat.
PRODUCTION: its rapidly becoming a reality that original production numbers hold little revalence...because recycling into scrap metal of automobiles is becoming the norm.
JUST an example: when's the last time you saw a chevette? I doubt anybody is stashing those away...begs the question how many are REALLY left? They made a zillion of em!
The problem for us is that Cadillacs are particularly attractive for 'quick cash' due to their weight over the scales. Scrapers also STEAL them to convert into cash...I had 13 Cadillacs stolen in one day! this event during the height of scrap metal prices...thieves got about $800 'no questions asked' CASH per car. These were complete Cadillacs and they had ZERO ownership documents for the conversion. You can say 'they can't do that!'...but i know now...they can and they will!
The wide range of views about this car is fascinating. Is the glass half full or is it half empty? With a very attractive and desirable model like this one, and with 17,000 miles on a 1970 Brougham, I WANT to believe the glass is half full until there's evidence that there's more wrong with the car than meets the eye. Maybe we can get to see it if it's still there when we visit Michigan (CLC Museum) later this month.
Here is what seems not to be questionable:
* 1970 Fleetwood Brougham with 17,000 miles
* Repaint in dark blue metallic appears to be an excellent job (though we need to see it is person)
* Has some options: automatic climate control, cruise control, tilt/telescoping wheel, controlled differential, white walls, and very likely some others
* Has Brougham standard equipment -- check out the 1970 Data Book, pages A6 - A8 and others for details [can download from web]
* Several emblems removed from exterior [Aside: A few weeks ago I saw a new Mercedes Benz SL AMG V12 being delivered to the buyer. Over $160,000 sticker as I recall. Buyer had removed every last emblem on the exterior of the car -- his preference. Car was black on black and truly stunning! To each his own...]
* The standard air suspension was converted to regular suspension, as has often been down by CLC members who own cars of the era. [Aside: For me this would be a plus...]
* Seller is an enthusiast in the car business for 25 years, and owns current business with excellent facilities for 10 years
* Seller has enviable record of great customer feedback (at least for a used car seller!) over many years
* Any buyer can see the car and take a mechanic with him or her
* Seller allows interested customer to use a lift to inspect car
And some of my own opinions:
- It's not a convertible but it IS a VERY nice Fleetwood Brougham with 133 inch wheelbase, the 472 and TH400
- This is NOT the car to buy if your goal is scoring high points at a Grand National
- Anyone interested should look the car over carefully, perhaps with an expert on 69-70 Cadillacs. The seller makes this easy to do
- There is absolutely no evidence of fraud of any sort with this car and seller. We should always have our eyes open, and perhaps such evidence will surface. Don't think so....
- I doubt that anyone here could buy a reasonably nice 1970 Brougham with, say, 75,000 miles and "normal" usage with relatively good care, and restore it to the condition of this car -- all for less than $15,300. [Even contributing some of their own labor...]
- This car is worth an investment of, say, $3000 more to address any cosmetic issues and the emblems
- As for selling price, we will see. It won't be $9,000 and it won't be $30,000. If I were in the market now, I would pay $15,300 and be very happy without adding the missing emblems!
- Is there a nicer Brougham out there for sale at under $15,300?
Cheers!
John Emerson
1952 Cadillac 6219X -- Very nice driver but not nearly as nice as this 1970 Brougham
Bill,
I'm a positive person, people even say that I'm from the school of "dream on". Recently after selling two cars on e-bay the bidding is to say the kindest thing: meaningless. I think the problem people see with this car is that the seller stated things that the buyer is to rely on that are not right, such as #29 blue paint formula..., and double wall Y pipe. The original "Patina Silver" paint on my 35k miles 1970 SDV is faded too, but it was not known to be due to a paint formulation.
The missing trim items, black painted under carriage, repaint, and fold marks on vinyl top to possibly repair corrosion give pause for such an expensive car. Like always it needs to be personally inspected mainly to check out the quality of that re-paint. Plus would like to see some documentation on the mileage, such as old receipts or something, although the front driver seat is almost enough proof.
Right now, not in the market for another car, so will not be inspecting it. If I was this might be a possibility after an inspection.
Enjoy the restoration of the 59!
Spoke with the seller mainly to inquire of the remote possibility the previous owner having furnished the missing trim bits in a couple ZipLock bags. Unfortunately, the answer is no. A repro set of Fleetwood letters from Caddy Daddy is $318 for a pair. Figure another $160 for the third set for the bumper. Crest and Wreath for the hood shouldn't be too difficult to find for ~ $200 to $250. Also needed are a pair of front fender emblems (Cadillac crest w/ bishop's hat) are available for another $300 for a pair. (These figures are without shopping around.)
So figure around a grand for all the missing parts; maybe another hundred for barrel clips plus labor to install which shouldn't be a big problem for any reasonably competent body shop or by the owner himself.
In any case, the seller seems pretty firm in the upper 20s. Not the seller's first time at the races, I'm sure he'll know what to do. Years and years ago people used to think I was crazy for pricing mint, low mile 77-79 CdVs puffs in the $6K range. Guess who was right and many times over at that. 8)
This fleetwood does NOT have cruise control that i can see? It's a switch inserted into the upper left speedo area. a crest filler is in its place on non cruise models. It's also the first year that the prior 'dial' style cruise was not offered.
Yep, no cruise.
I did find this '69 Fleetwood on eBay, says its a 60 special, looks like a brougham to me. And it's priced right, except it's a '69. :-\
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadillac-Fleetwood-60-Special-Sedan-4-Door-/201664667847?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2ef426a0c7:g:XokAAOSwRQlXcsv7&item=201664667847
The 1970 Fleetwood listing now shows - " This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available" :(
Chris,
That 69 Fleetwood falls into the needs some work category, but worth it. The nice thing about a car that needs some work is you can make it how you want. For me I would remove vinyl top and body side moldings and re-paint it - wow!, that would be amazing. I like the leather interior. If it was not rusted it may be worth considering. However if the subject of this post has a real nice paint job you could not get this car as nice as the one for sale for the price difference.
Chris, the 69 is definitely a Brougham, note the leading P model code in the VIN. A Sixty Special would be M. Blasphemy I know, I always preferred the 69s, and the slick top Sixty Specials.
Craig
Doesn't vinyl roof mean it could not be a base 60 Special?
Technically, the 60 Special designation was used until 1976.
The '69 is a dog's breakfast.
And what about this ridiculous proviso the seller attached to his terms of sale:
If you are buying and paying for this vehicle you will need to give me a positive feedback before this vehicle is picked up!
Yes Eric, the Sixty Special was only available with no vinyl top, the Brougham only available with vinyl top. Brougham had a 1st year split bench seat, optional on Sixty Special. 69 was the last year of the base Sixty Special.
Craig
Frankly, I prefer pre-71 Cadillacs without vinyl roof, while also eliminating bubbling vinyl roof worries.
I've never been overly fond of 69/70 but I've always considered the Fleetwood 60 Special/Brougham a very stately car - especially in black w/slick roof.
Eric, Great comment about "Dogs Breakfast" I was considering it for a few minutes but the Washington title shown was for $2400 in February from Washington state. Since I live in Washington and have done quite a few transaction the date would cost me hundreds of dollars for late registration fees.
I'm trying to figure out why a car with only 17k has so much missing or replaced . . .
hawk
Quote from: V63 on September 08, 2016, 11:05:55 PM
This fleetwood does NOT have cruise control that i can see? It's a switch inserted into the upper left speedo area. a crest filler is in its place on non cruise models. It's also the first year that the prior 'dial' style cruise was not offered.
Just to be clear, the 1970 Brougham with 17,000 miles does have Cruise according to the listing:
This Cadillac comes fully loaded, as it should, with power windows, power brakes, power steering, tilt column, cruise control... If that information is incorrect then we have a problem I think. Perhaps someone will check out this car later this month. If the price stays close to 30K it won't be sold.
John Emerson
The listing is incorrect. No cruise. No dash switch. No transducer under the hood. No cruise.
The car sold anyway with or without cruise. Cruise is not a very worthwhile option on a classic. My 1970 SDV has it, I restored it to full operation, and in four years of ownership and about 3k miles of driving it has never been used in normal driving (only in test mode).
On any 1970 Cadillac if it is not so optioned, I add tilt/tel. wheel, twilight sentinel, and electric trunk release. If a cloth interior was not good and needed upholstery, would change it to leather that includes door and dash wood inserts.
Air conditioning is the only real make-or-break option on a Fleetwood - especially anything mid-60s or later. Other equipment is icing on the cake: Nice when it's there but not very detrimental to value when it's not. Lack of air will likely deter the average Fleetwood buyer.
By 1968 no ac was a rare situation on a Cadillac. In my eleven years of membership have only seen three no ac Cadillacs, one was a 1968, a 1969 and a 1970 - all convertibles. Never seen a closed Cadillac 1968 or newer with no ac especially a Fleetwood.
:) This thread goes back almost 4 years!