Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

It was nice to see Cadillac pay homage to some of the old classics last night.  They certainly have a rich history and they should use it!

   My thoughts were along those lines, the commercials last night were infinitely better than what the  "dare greatly" campaign started out with. 

Did not watch that, is there a link?

Carry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SB4CbFB7OU

Pedestal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfs1w-mcvns

Pioneers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMD5KXYJq_w

Yes better campaign than driving fast and sitting in the rain

All the admiring and envious looks from the public in the "Pioneer" commercial is what my drive is like in a 1970 Cadillac.  I hear all the time "Mom, we need to buy a car like that".  Cadillac realizes that their past is important and a valuable asset.   Glad we are able to all help.

Maybe this will be the year they stop running away from their brand...


Come on Cadillac...Eldorado Fleetwood.  Not CTS-V. 

Dare Greatly. 

I really don't think Cadillac is trying to suggest that they want to bring back cars of the past (large land-yacht sedans) or names from the past (DeVille, Fleetwood, etc.) but rather that they want to make vehicles in the future that are admired, contemporary, leading-edge, etc. like their cars were in the past.  This includes semi-autonomous or self driving vehicles, high-tech vehicles, electric vehicles, performance cars, more crossovers, SUVs, etc.  That's what "the future" is about.

While things can certainly change, Cadillac and de Nysschen have laid out at least tentative plans for the brand over the next several years.  These include transitioning car model names to CT plus a number (e.g. CT6) and crossover model names to XT plus a number (e.g. XT5) with Escalade remaining Escalade.

Various exterior and interior styling cues will be taken from the Escala concept car featured in the "Pedestal" commercial.  Models to be introduced include a new flagship which is not a four door sedan, a crossover between XT5 and Escalade, a crossover below XT5, an XTS refresh (important to fleet business), and replacements for CTS and ATS.

I first saw the ads on YT then saw them again during the Oscars.  While I was on YT, I saw the Escala unveiling and saw an episode of Jay's Garage with one of the designers.  The future is amazing with these vehicles.  I had my 56 out for a spin this past weekend.  It was over 70 deg here in Jersey.  I got home and put it back in the garage.  I immediately had to go out shopping for the week with my wife.  We got into my brand new 2017 Audi A4.  Cars have come along way for sure!  Still can't beat the ride of the Caddy!

I considered Cadillac when buying my "Sports Sedan" but in the end, I did not buy Cadillac even though I have owned my 56 for 41 years.  That's the market they are seeking... Sport/Luxury.  I notice a lot of the features in my A4 in the Escala and the ElMaraj.  The virtual cockpit (no more gages) in my car is what they are all going towards.  it's a matter of personal taste and I chose something different at this time.  I will be buying more cars we'll see how I feel in a few years...

They don't have to bring back the cars of the past, but the ethic is different...it seems the brass admires the cars of germany more than the Cadillac of the past, and that is a problem.

Im fixing to take a 2 hour drive.  I can just about garantee you on that drive, I will hear a song or 2 where a Cadillac is mentioned.  And those songs, in spirit, wont be evoking the memory of a sporty performance sedan...no no, it will be the old Cadillac...oversized, outlandish luxury...oppulence.  d' Elegance.

You can't tell me it would not sell.  Just cause it doesn't quite make sense doesn't mean there isn't a market.  Cadillac is never about being a car someone needs, but rather, what one wants. 

Eventually, de Nyschen will have to leave.  Eventually, they will learn that people dont want new coke. Not sure when that will be, but it will be some day. 

It doesn't have to be a 4 door sedan.  But it does need to be named right.  And it needs to be big.  Bigger, both in name and substance than a ct6.  Or escala. 

I think a crossover the size of an escalade would be intriguing. 

Cadillac does have to produce the car people want and not necessarily need.  I remember when first saw the advertisement for a 1994 Fleetwood RWD and the 260hp V-8, and I had to have it.  Bought a 1995 Fleetwood soon after and it was the best car ever.  Same when I saw Cadillac convertibles back when I was a teenager, although it took until 2005 to buy one.  Looking for a car that screams " I have got to buy one".  The CT6 is close for me, let's see what the Flagship is.

Cadillac is focusing on the German brands because that is where a lot of the luxury buyers have gone.  Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi and Porsche have all enjoyed record sales here in the U.S. in recent years.  In fact, Mercedes sold more vehicles in the U.S. in calendar 2014, 2015 and 2016 (record year after record year) than Cadillac was ever able to achieve here in any year in its entire history.

Yes, it would be nice if Cadillac didn't have to or choose to position itself against the imports so much but nothing else seemed to have been working particularly well, especially on the car side of the business.  Cadillac's once beloved, traditional large sedans just hadn't been and aren't selling anything like they used to.  The large luxury coupe market had sharply declined as well, Coupe deVille gone after 1993 and Eldorado gone after 2002.

Cadillac had to move away from its past because consumers had, especially younger consumers.  The saying may be "if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it" but in this case it was broke and they had to do something.  Additionally, the auto market is more global than any time in the past.  It's not just about the U.S. anymore.  Where things go from here for Cadillac will be interesting.

And why did the luxury buyers go to German automakers?  Largely because Cadillac stopped being the innovator it was and made garbage cars starting in the 1980s.  That's when they lost their reputation.    It was nice to see Cadillac pay homage to it's past instead of trying to sweep it under the rug.    The 1950s Cadillacs will always be remember as one of the pinnacle cars of that, or any era.    People born long after they were made realize that, I consistently get comments to that effect about mine.   

Garrett

Again, count me out.  No monster trucks or station wagons for me...

Mercedes, BMW, Audi all seem to be able to build and sell some appealing coupes, convertibles and large sedans and not just in Europe...

Quote from: Cadillac Nut on February 28, 2017, 04:45:56 PM
And why did the luxury buyers go to German automakers?

For one thing, tastes changed.  Buyers, especially younger buyers, became less interested in large "boulevard cruising" cars (Cadillac's forte) and became more interested in smaller “performance and handling” cars (the imports' forte).  Lincoln faced the same issue and, like Cadillac, saw sales decline.  Both brands have struggled to shake their "land yacht" images.

Quote from: Cadillac Nut on February 28, 2017, 04:45:56 PMLargely because Cadillac stopped being the innovator it was and made garbage cars starting in the 1980s.

Cadillacs were still very popular in the 1980s.   Their U.S. sales were over 300,000 as late as 1986 and over 260,000 annually the remainder of the decade.   Well above the German brands at the time.

Should we be making the assumption that volume sold is the end all be all? 

I think we need to look at Cadillac as a marquee brand, not a division of GM which actually needs to be a big money maker.  They make money with Chevy trucks, or GMC, or even Buick. 

As far as I'm concerned, it would be better to cull the number of Cadillac models, really focus on what their name has (in the best years) meant - so as to give them a real distinction again.  Cadillac is your lighthouse, it marks the way style wise, it sets the aspirations, and if you get people to pay $90k for one, you are getting some nice margin.  Forget about BMW or Mercedes...Mercedes' volume is gonna kill them some day.   I see more Mercedes in some areas of Birmingham?! than Chevys.

Take on Bentley and Rolls Royce.  Those are your competitors, those are the companies making a car that is what Cadillac was, a completely nonsensical, unnecessary, massive statement of prestige, taste and daring.   It does good for all of GM, really all of American cars when you do.  So what if every Granny can't buy one, if every hipster can only dream...you want that.   When a Tesla drives by, or a Maseratti, I stop to look even if its not my ideal.  We now live in a world where good solid cars are easy...Kia is comfortable, competent. Thats only going to become more common, not less, as Big Apple Caddy observed.   Dare Greatly is actually a good slogan if they'd live it.  And stop telling us how they are taking on the germans.  That market segment is and has been owned, and if Cadillac can't do Cadillac right, how are they going to do BMW right? 

But you have to make the car, and you have to market it right.  So, no CTnumeral, its boring, its forgettable by design, worst off all it immediately telegraphs inferiority for all of your cheaper models. They don't have to implement everything I am saying here, but for Gosh sakes, they are going to have to do something.  They are drowning in boredom, as if the Carter Malaise attached itself to the luxury division while the 4100 was being developed, and has stuck.  So do something daring, and give us the Elmiraj and cars and ideas in that stratosphere.

Big Apple Caddy is right that the 1980's was a great sales decade for Cadillac.  However, it was probably the worst decade of Cadillac product.  I was out of college and working during that decade and was well aware of the drivetrains and had no interest in owning a new Cadillac, unlike the 1970's decade.  If Cadillac had decent product during the "Roaring 1980's" we called it, they may have sold 400k per year.  In any event their product caused a vacuum in the luxury car market during the 1980's and all the other worthwhile luxury brands gained market share at the expense of Cadillac.

I think Cadillac is on the right track to recovery.  It took over a decade for bad product to catch up to them in the past and that was when the average used car was under ten years old.  Now the average used car is over ten years old, so it may take longer to recover.  Great looking cars with exciting reliable drivetrains will be a great start.  The CT6 seems a step in the right direction.

Quote from: WTL on February 28, 2017, 11:12:14 PM
Should we be making the assumption that volume sold is the end all be all?

Not entirely, no, but sales volume is one of the more objective evaluators of a brand's overall appeal or success.  It is also what most analysts, the media, even the companies turn to when discussing the success or struggles of a brand at a particular moment or over time.  Sales numbers are the measure or gauge and then other factors, which can get more subjective, come in to try to determine the "whys."

Gauge: Cadillac and Lincoln sales are notably down compared to say 30 years ago.

Why:  I think one of the biggest issues for Cadillac and Lincoln is that the types of cars that had long been their "specialty" have gone out of favor.   The cars that appeal to consumers today are more what the imports have long been better known for.  Cadillac and Lincoln have a land-yacht stereotype to overcome that the imports don't.  Additionally, as younger buyers moved to imports, Cadillac and Lincoln also gained more of an "old man car" image.

Cadillac and Lincoln had a choice.  Continue to focus on cars that used to sell so very well for them (DeVilles, Town Cars, etc) and be content with lower sales and an older demo or try to reinvent themselves a bit and offer vehicles that appeal to more buyers in the current market.  They've largely chosen the latter but it takes time, including in the minds of the buying public, to shift out of something you had so long been well known for or associated with.

As nice as the CT6 is, in my subjective opinion, it's not selling nearly as well as large Cadillac sedans used to.  As late as 2000, Cadillac was selling over 100,000 DeVilles a year in the U.S. with higher inflation adjusted base prices than the CT6.   The CT6's BEST month so far was only 1,343.  It's not just a Cadillac situation, however, as Lincoln and other brands have seen large sedan sales sharply decline and before that saw large coupe sales decline.  In many minds, Cadillac still equals large sedan but when people go out to buy their next new car fewer and fewer want large sedans.

     It's been reported that GM has invested around twelve billion dollars in Cadillac, with little to show for it. Sales in the home market (U.S.) continue to decline, and globally, it is the Chinese market that has shown significant growth (and we're told the Chinese do not prefer daring styling, and this has "toned down" the new Cadillac designs, preventing production of something like El Miraj or Ciel concepts).
     The dealership my family has dealt with for decades tore down their previous building and built a new building, but I've been told everything in it is dictated by "Cadillac corporate," and though they've existed since 1938, there are no Cadillac mementos or automobilia of an historic nature. Although seeing vintage Cadillacs in the ads during the Oscars is welcome, it is a mixed message, along with making social statements, as I've lost confidence in Johan and his minions. I sense that they do the minimum to acknowledge Cadillac's past greatness, and continue to make statements such as the elimination of design cues associated with the brand, such as the Escalaadding the horizontal element to the tail lamps.
     I would like to see Cadillac offer fewer models (there are four Sedans--the ATS, CTS, XTS and CT6--all comparable in packaging), but more variations (i.e. a Coupe, Convertible, Wagon variant of fewer model offerings--or an ultra-plush "Platinum" version of each model.) For example, the ATS does not compare favorably to the new Mercedes C-Class Cabriolet (all wheel drive, stylish and great color offerings, and equipped with all available options, it stickers around $55,000 to $60,000)--with their "Designo" package optional, including Porcelain (White) leather interiors, red convertible tops, and variations of colors. The same could be said of Audi or BMW convertibles. Here is an example with a White body with Red Top and Sand Beige leather:
(//)

Cadillac should "own" a palette of broad color choices, based on their history of offering unique color selections, often prior to their availability by other GM divisions. The styling is acceptable, but it could really generate showroom traffic if a Convertible or Coupe were offered and tweaked it up a notch. When the CTS Coupe was offered, it was leading all its competition in sales, but it was dropped for the next generation CTS. The ATS Coupe has not matched such success (but it is more blandly styled). I try to like the new Cadillacs, but it is difficult, and I am among the brand's most loyal fans. I hope the brand does not follow the path of Oldsmobile and Pontiac.

The trouble is that the majority of Cadillac lineup is supposed to compete in a market that had been saturated for decades. How many so-called "European" sports sedans do we need? And what about Cadillac's origami architecture? Looks like it came from the waste can of the Aztek studio. That's right I said it.

If you want a big roomy comfortable Cadillac that actually rides like a real Cadillac should, you're in Escalade country, which, it comes as no surprise is Cadillac's best selling model, not to mention the most profitable. I could make the Cadillac division more profitable with the stroke of a pen without spending a dime: Axe every single model but the Escalade!

So keep it up GM - another $100B thrown at Cadillac isn't going to save it from GM and government morons who think they are going to decide for the American buyer what it should buy, instead of what it wants to buy. Tails don't wag dogs and ere long, GM will be have its hand out for another big fat check, compliments of you and me.

Insanity: Doing the same thing while expecting a different result.

Hello GM -- anyone there?

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 01, 2017, 01:35:31 PM
If you want a big roomy comfortable Cadillac that actually rides like a real Cadillac should, you're in Escalade country, which, it comes as no surprise is Cadillac's best selling model, not to mention its most profitable model.

The XT5, which replaced the SRX, is Cadillac’s best selling model and the SRX had been before that.  The Escalades (Escalade and Escalade ESV combined) are actually second best.

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 01, 2017, 01:35:31 PMI could make the Cadillac division more profitable with the stroke of a pen without spending a dime: Axe every single model but the Escalade!

More profitable per unit sold but I don’t know that it would make the brand more profitable overall.  That is, unless Cadillac is essentially losing money on everything else they sell.

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on March 01, 2017, 02:54:20 PM
More profitable per unit sold but I don’t know that it would make the brand more profitable overall.  That is, unless Cadillac is essentially losing money on everything else they sell.

Wouldn't surprise me.

Figuring in all the fixed costs of designing all the other models, it'll be a long hard road before the break-even point is reached for each of 'em. My guess is that it may well never happen for most models, possibly all.

And of course, all that must occur before the next styling generation, after which the clock resets to zero.

An awful lot of Cadillacs need to get sold to make up for a $12B outlay - and that's before figuring in RRR of say 5% which is ridiculously low. Given current sales levels, I cannot see how it can be done this side of a miracle.

12b outlay!

That is $10,000 x 1.2 million, $20,000 x 600k, $30,000 x 400k, or $40,000 x 300k, how many cars does Cadillac sell each year?  Hope I got the decimal point and number of zeros right.

Anyway back on topic, like the Cadillac advertisements!  They certainly will not hurt!

Mercedes, BMW, and Audi ALL have multiple convertible models. Yet Cadillac? Not a single one. And they haven't even produced a factory 4 seat convertible in 41 years (32 if you include the 85 Eldorados). Apparently the German manufacturers realize enough people enjoy convertibles to make them. Why not Cadillac?

Buick was making a Park Avenue sedan for the Chinese market with an interior that rivaled a Maybach...  I've seen maybachs on US roads but never this Park Avenue.  I guess if you want a big, luxurious AMERICAN GM car, you gotta buy it in China...

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 01, 2017, 03:27:27 PM
Wouldn't surprise me.

Figuring in all the fixed costs of designing all the other models, it'll be a long hard road before the break-even point is reached for each of 'em. My guess is that it may well never happen for most models, possibly all.

And of course, all that must occur before the next styling generation, after which the clock resets to zero.

An awful lot of Cadillacs need to get sold to make up for a $12B outlay - and that's before figuring in RRR of say 5% which is ridiculously low. Given current sales levels, I cannot see how it can be done this side of a miracle.

I imagine that the XT5 is helping the bottom line decently and the upcoming XT3 and XT7 (?) should help too.  Cars obviously aren't doing as well but I'm not sure they're all money losing.  I just don't know.

The $12B is to fund eight new models by 2020 and two others after that so an average of $1.2B per model with each one presumably having around a five year cycle.  I'm not in the business nor do I know many details about the investment but $1.2B on average per model actually doesn't sound that unreasonable.

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on March 01, 2017, 06:45:51 PM
12b outlay!

That is $10,000 x 1.2 million, $20,000 x 600k, $30,000 x 400k, or $40,000 x 300k, how many cars does Cadillac sell each year?

Cadillac sold around 309,000 vehicles globally last year.  The U.S. was still the brand's #1 market with 55% of the sales but China is growing fast.  It may not be long before more new Cadillacs are sold in China than in the U.S.  Buick already sells far more vehicles in China than in the U.S.

Quote from: Caddyjack on March 01, 2017, 10:29:41 PM
Mercedes, BMW, and Audi ALL have multiple convertible models. Yet Cadillac? Not a single one. And they haven't even produced a factory 4 seat convertible in 41 years (32 if you include the 85 Eldorados). Apparently the German manufacturers realize enough people enjoy convertibles to make them. Why not Cadillac?

The German brands are stronger in markets where convertibles have tended to be more popular.  They're not particularly popular in Cadillac's main markets (North America and China).  The only non-sports car convertible that is offered by ANY domestic brand right now is the $30Ks priced Opel-based Buick Cascada which has averaged around 600/month in sales in the U.S.   I'm kind of surprised that Cadillac still even offers a coupe as that market has shrunken here too.

Still no word on what Cadillac's "flagship that isn't a four door sedan" is going to be but perhaps it will be a convertible or available in convertible form.

Quote from: Walter Youshock on March 02, 2017, 07:49:42 AM
Buick was making a Park Avenue sedan for the Chinese market with an interior that rivaled a Maybach...  I've seen maybachs on US roads but never this Park Avenue.  I guess if you want a big, luxurious AMERICAN GM car, you gotta buy it in China...

Maybe... The other day I was walking and saw a 2017 (maybe 2016) CT6 Platinum all-wheel drive with Twin-Turbo. I have seen this car before, but I stopped and walked around it. To me, it's a very impressive model.

This morning I went to the Mercedes-Benz website to make a head-to-head comparison of the MB S-550 AWD model and the top model Cadillac CT6 (as described above). Here is what the MB web page says:
1. MB has 449 HP V8, and Cad has 404 HP turbo V6
2. MB is 400 pounds heavier
3. MB is priced $12,000 higher than the most expensive CT6
4. EPA gas mileage is the same for both city and highway
5. MB is 2 1/2 inches longer with 2 inches longer wheelbase. MB is 1 inch wider
6. CT6 has 5 inches more front legroom and MB has 2.5 inches more rear legroom
7. MB has 1 1/2 inches more front shoulder room and almost 3 more inches of rear shoulder room than CT6

I think that the CT6 is closer to the S-Class than most would assume. Note that I have used the very top (Platinum) version of CT6 for a "fair" comparison. If we look at the CT6 Luxury model with Twin-Turbo V6, the price differential becomes $35,000. For that difference we could buy a VERY nice 1960s Cadillac classic...

For some on this list, price is no object and so much of the comparison is not particularly of interest. But the CT6 IS a big car with very competitive performance, handling, and equipment (in my opinion).

All of us are waiting to see what the Cadillac flagship model is going to be.

John Emerson
Middlebury, VT

Quote from: Walter Youshock on March 02, 2017, 07:49:42 AM
Buick was making a Park Avenue sedan for the Chinese market with an interior that rivaled a Maybach...  I've seen maybachs on US roads but never this Park Avenue.  I guess if you want a big, luxurious AMERICAN GM car, you gotta buy it in China...

The Park Avenue in China was a rebadged Holden Caprice/Statesman (briefly offered here in police/fleet form as the Chevrolet Caprice) and was discontinued in 2012.  Were you ever actually in a China market Park Avenue?  From what I've heard and read, it isn't/wasn't as impressive as you seem to think but I have no person experience with car.  China's current flagship sedan is the LaCrosse like we get here.

If you want a big, luxurious American GM car you have to look no further than the CT6.

For a company who's mantra (at present anyway) is "Dare Greatly", I cannot imagine a less daring product lineup than the current crop of products from our favorite GM division is all I can say. Instead of leading with distinctive styling that once provided irrefutable proof that one had "arrived", seems to have been progressively watered down, lost and without a clear sense of purpose or direction. 

I sincerely pray that one day Cadillac will once again be restored to its rightful place among top luxury cars. Heaven knows they have the resources, the talent and the ability to do so.

As for the CT6 - from the front, it looks as if it's shedding tears. That's what GM execs will soon be doing if they keep on this path with Cadillac.

One man's opinion.

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 02, 2017, 10:44:38 AM
I sincerely pray that one day Cadillac will once again be restored to its rightful place among top luxury cars.

When, in your opinion, was Cadillac last in its so-called "rightful place" and what made it so?

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on March 02, 2017, 12:02:14 PM
When, in your opinion, was Cadillac last in its so-called "rightful place" and what made it so?

There is no specific cutoff; the decline was evolutionary.

If you can name one new Cadillac product today that defines status, glamour - or whatever you want to call it - the likes of say, the early '30s models, any '50s Eldorado, and perhaps to a lesser extent, the '67 Eldorado, '76 Seville, '79 Eldorado & '80 Seville  and countless others had done when they were new, I'm all ears.

Once upon a time, a brand new Caddy in the driveway meant something! It stirred emotions - whether celebrated as a symbol of material excess - or denounced for the same reason - few would dispute the car had a pronounced effect on the onlooker. Even the VP of Corporate Enthusiasm at GM would have a difficult time declaring a new Cadillac product capable of eliciting similar emotions with a straight face. 

Thirty years from now, I can easily see a '58 Biarritz still being a highly prized & sought-after collector car but can you envision someone turning handstands over an '85 DeVille or an XT5? I sure can't.

Just wondering, whats yalls take on the 2017 Continental?  How does it match up? 

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 02, 2017, 12:45:51 PM
There is no specific cutoff; the decline was evolutionary.

I think what defines status, glamour, etc. can simply change era to era.  I don't think Cadillac is particularly less glamorous today by today's standards than they were in past years/periods you mentioned and competes on largely the same level (again, by today's standards) now that they have in the past  It’s just a different environment these days with more and different players, different tastes and preferences, and other factors.  Some love today's era of luxury cars while others don't and miss those of times past, but that commonly happens generation after generation.

My biggest issue with Cadillac in general as far as status isn’t really specific to Cadillac and carries over to other luxury brands too and that is they’ve become too easy to afford thanks to lower pricing and/or aggressive lease deals and/or increasingly longer financing terms.

Quote from: WTL on March 02, 2017, 12:53:30 PM
Just wondering, whats yalls take on the 2017 Continental?  How does it match up?

Style preferences are subjective so I won't go there but I think on paper it compares closest with the Cadillac XTS as far as both being FWD or AWD, similarly sized, similarly priced (at least sticker prices), etc.   The Continental as yet doesn’t offer a "performance" version like the XTS V-Sport but does offer a twin-turbo engine almost matching the V-Sport's TT in horsepower.

I much prefer the Continental name, versus XTS or CT6, but I'm still old school in that way.

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on March 02, 2017, 02:14:22 PM
I don't think Cadillac is particularly less glamorous today by today's standards than they were in past years/periods you mentioned...

I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

The only true, big luxury 2-door convertible that I know of on the market today is the Bentley. Is there room in this niche for Cadillac to introduce another one?

I agree with Eric.  When I was a kid in the 1960's and attending high school in the 1970's it was a big deal to own a Cadillac, now not so much.  Today owning a MB is bigger deal than Cadillac.  It is a long road ahead for Cadillac to overtake MB as the luxury car leader.  A great flagship though results in a powerful start, such as a RWD V-8 full size (seats 4 comfortably) convertible.  Keeping my fingers crossed for an amazing Cadillac flagship!

Quote from: Bentley on March 02, 2017, 08:05:44 PM
The only true, big luxury 2-door convertible that I know of on the market today is the Bentley.

I wouldn't necessarily consider the Bentley Continental GT convertible a "big" car but there are other luxury convertibles out there that are as large or larger including BMW 6-Series and Mercedes-Benz S-Class, plus the Rolls-Royce Dawn which is larger than all of them.

Quote from: Bentley on March 02, 2017, 08:05:44 PM
Is there room in this niche for Cadillac to introduce another one?

Perhaps.  We'll have to wait and see what Cadillac's new flagship will be.  If it is offered as a convertible, my guess is that it'll be more Audi R8 than MB S-Class but you never know.

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on March 02, 2017, 08:07:59 PM
When I was a kid in the 1960's and attending high school in the 1970's it was a big deal to own a Cadillac, now not so much.  Today owning a MB is bigger deal than Cadillac.

I’d have to disagree there.  Although both have gone down market (too much so IMO) in recent times, I think owning a Mercedes-Benz had long been a "bigger deal" than owning a Cadillac.  Mercedes-Benz in the past were usually smaller than typical Cadillacs but have long carried higher to much price tags and more prestige.

In many ways I think Cadillac is actually more competitive with MB today than in times past when the brands were playing in different price and size categories.  In the past, even top end Cadillacs were traditionally less than Mercedes-Benzes and much less than the "big" Mercedes-Benzes.  Today, a fully loaded CT6 comes within just $5,000 or so of the base price of an S550.   A CTS-V (as well as the Escalade) can be thousands more than an S550.   At the low end, the 4-door Mercedes-Benz CLA250 and Cadillac ATS are around the same size yet the Cadillac starts over $2,000 higher.

Although very pricey and excellently built, most Mercedes products were rather spartan compared to what the American public expected in a luxury car from the '50s to the '70s.  It was not until the 1980s, roughly, that Mercedes began equipping their cars anywhere near as well as a fully loaded Cadillac, which it finally realized it had to do if it was to compete in the American luxury car market.

Also bear in mind, relatively low import quantities and/or limited distribution network helped bolster MB prices. Produced and offered in the same quantities as Cadillac, they would never have commanded the selling prices they did.

In any case, I'm not sure whether, say a 1976 450SL would have been considered as glamorous as a 1976 Eldorado convertible with the majority of the American public, as MB always appealed to a more specialized crowd.

Different cars appeal to different people for sure but I feel that Mercedes had long been "bigger deals", as Scot put it, than the more common and traditionally lower to much lower priced Cadillacs.  Although the cars were generally more spartan than Cadillacs, I'd still say Mercedes-Benz ownership was more "special" or "glamorous" than Cadillac ownership in part because of the above mentioned price differences.

Today, I find Mercedes and Cadillacs more on par with each other as pricing and other attributes (like size) have become more similar.  I actually feel that Mercedes-Benz ownership these days is less of a "bigger deal" over Cadillac than it used to be.

Speaking for myself, I would take a 1976 Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance, all day, any day over any Mercedes of the same model year. For looks, ride, comfort, and room it had a 450 SEL beat in spades, hands down IMO. Yes the Mercedes handles better, stops quicker and so forth - which is great if you're in a hurry all the time. I'll just leave a little earlier.  ::)

I wonder what a new 1976 Cadillac sold for in Germany... probably more than a Mercedes I suspect, and it was probably more prestigious as well.

In any case, I've never been particularly impressed with most European cars, especially at their price. 

Well, again we are discussing maybe 2 different things; profitability (and volume of sales) and prestige.  I don't think they necessarily track. 

We have really focused on Mercedes, but for Cadillac, not much talk has been directed at Buick.  What is Buick for?  Where does it fit?  GMC Yukon vs Escalade?  What does that do to Cadillac?  I think the stablemates hurt a lot, as they are very nice cars/suvs.  I believe the CT6 is great, as things go, but is it worth the markup when people see it and think about Cadillac how they used to think about Buick? 

Really, I keep coming back to the idea that a choice must be made.  If Cadillac wants to remain synonymous with the unltimate luxury, as the word continues to mean to this day, then they need to cut back on volume, models, and increase prices and panache.  They can't be modest. 

I was behind an early 2000s Cadillac yesterday, a boat.  Might have been the last Deville.  It obviously had Cadillac dimensions.  But it was just a dead design.  Nothing interesting.  We have slayed the 80s in this thread, but at least the 1980-85 Seville did something.  People either loved it or hated it (I loved it), but it was out there on a limb.  As others are noting, that being out there on a limb went away in the 80s.  The 90s cars had some ok lines, but they didn't have panache.  And so, we can make fun of the land yachts and say they didn't sell, but maybe all we established conclusively is that bland land yachts dont sell. 

I grew up in Cleveland, OH area, born in 1960.  Cleveland was a car town and supplied automotive components to Detroit.  No way was MB in a league equal to Cadillac in the 1970's.  The successful people in town owned Cadillacs or Lincolns in the late 1970's.  Only one person I knew owned a 1972 MB280, and it was disgraced by my 1968 Thunderbird w/429 V-8.  I agree MB in the late 1970's introduced the restyled 450SEL (not sure of exact model, but the large V-8 sedan that had a new winning style), and it was not until the early 1980's where that really caught on.

There is something to be said for the definition of success.  Is it a good product that may not sell well for lack of marketing or otherwise (Cadillac now), or is it large profits on poor product(Cadillac 1980's), or is it nice profit on good products (1930's thru 1970')?  I would consider product for purposes of this club and discussion as success, not profit only, such as the 1980's.  I think we all would like to see Cadillac earn a nice fair profit on good product.

Anyway, I think Cadillac is on the right track now more than they were the last 35 years to improvement. 

Land yachts or not, DeVille and DTS have always sold consistently well for me as used cars, while newer generation  STS and SRX models were slugs. Could barely get a customer to look at one. I'll probably never touch either again. Only the Seville SLS/STS style produced until 1987 and the '92 - '02 Eldorado sold comparably to DeVille/DTS.

Last year I sold a 2010 DTS Premium with 806 miles that was as new. Had zero difficulty selling that car for a bit shy of $30K and I could have sold 10 more if I had them to offer. Same for a 2008 DTS I sold last month with 42,000 miles that was almost as nice which sold just as easily as the 2010.

So you can see why I do not buy into this nonsense that full size Cadillac sedans do not sell. In my experience it is exactly the kind of Cadillac that absolutely does sell.

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 03, 2017, 01:02:18 PMI wonder what a new 1976 Cadillac sold for in Germany... probably more than a Mercedes I suspect, and it was probably more prestigious as well. 

Unlikely.  I'm not sure when Cadillac entered the German market and with what models but given the wide price differences between Cadillac and MB here in the past, I think the Mercedes would've/could've still been a good bit pricier than a Cadillac.  In Germany, like here, Mercedes could get quite pricey and sometimes more than here due to things like VAT.

Right now, Cadillacs in Germany are actually around the same price (converted to USD) as they are here in the states until you add that nasty VAT.

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 03, 2017, 01:02:18 PM
In any case, I've never been particularly impressed with most European cars, especially at their price.

Must be why you hang out here rather than one of the Mercedes-Benz or other European car forums! :)

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 03, 2017, 02:20:35 PMSo you can see why I do not buy into this nonsense that full size Cadillac sedans do not sell. In my experience it is exactly the kind of Cadillac that absolutely does sell.

Why is it nonsense?  New full size Cadillac sedans don't sell nearly as well as they used as reflected in rapidly declining sales of DeVille (2000 to 2005), DTS (2006 to 2011) and XTS (2013 to present) plus relatively tepid CT6 sales.

Quote from: WTL on March 03, 2017, 01:52:29 PM
What is Buick for?

I think a big reason Buick is still around is because it’s so darn popular in China and GM is afraid that dropping the brand here might negatively impact Chinese sales where 80% of Buicks are sold and where Cadillac is seeing serious growth.  Chevrolet too.  Here in the U.S., Buick is even further below its 1980s sales peak than Cadillac is below its peak.

Quote from: WTL on March 03, 2017, 01:52:29 PM
And so, we can make fun of the land yachts and say they didn't sell, but maybe all we established conclusively is that bland land yachts dont sell.

That notable declines in large sedan sales, and NOT just @ Cadillac, and notable increase in crossover and SUV sales would suggest that there's a lot more to this than some sort of potential "blandness" issue with sedans.   New vehicle consumers today just don't want large sedan like they used to.  I hope that changes but it's where we are now.

Picking on buick.  Funny since after 4 rwd Cadillacs, I got a '98 lesabre which was just about the best car I've ever owned.  Now I have a lucerne which is about the worst.  But why did I go Buick--a poor experience with a fwd Cadillac and I didn't want a Northstar.

Last funeral home I worked for had a fleet of 7 cadillacs.  His and his wife's daily drivers--BUICKS.  And he's holding off updating the fleet until Cadillac comes out with a car a dignified hearse can be made from...

Cadillac threw the professional car market away. 

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on March 03, 2017, 03:36:18 PM
Unlikely.  I'm not sure when Cadillac entered the German market and with what models but given the wide price differences between Cadillac and MB here in the past, I think the Mercedes would've/could've still been a good bit pricier than a Cadillac.

I'll leave that for your redoubtable research skills to answer which are far beyond mine.

In any case, I wouldn't bet against it just yet. 

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on March 03, 2017, 03:36:18 PMMust be why you hang out here rather than one of the Mercedes-Benz or other European car forums! :)

Indeed.  ;)

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on March 03, 2017, 03:36:18 PMWhy is it nonsense?  New full size Cadillac sedans don't sell nearly as well as they used as reflected in rapidly declining sales of DeVille (2000 to 2005), DTS (2006 to 2011) and XTS (2013 to present) plus relatively tepid CT6 sales.

There are "on-paper" statistics and then there is the real world. After you've scratched and clawed your way through the jungle of the car business for a few decades, then come back and tell me which cars you have found profitable to handle and which are not.

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 03, 2017, 04:39:41 PMThere are "on-paper" statistics and then there is the real world. After you've scratched and clawed your way through the jungle of the car business for a few decades, then come back and tell me which cars you have found profitable to handle and which are not.

The "on paper" stats are based on the current real world reported new car sales and not just one or a few dealers' sales results but the collective results of all of the Cadillac dealers.  I'm sure some dealers and some regions of the country do or did better with DeVille, DTS, XTS and/or CT6 than others but it's the total new Cadillac market that has shown a significant drop in the large sedan business.  It's also not just Cadillac but large car sales are down for the overall industry.

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on March 04, 2017, 10:22:37 AM
The "on paper" stats are based on the current real world reported new car sales and not just one or a few dealers' sales results but the collective results of all of the Cadillac dealers.  I'm sure some dealers and some regions of the country do or did better with DeVille, DTS, XTS and/or CT6 than others but it's the total new Cadillac market that has shown a significant drop in the large sedan business.  It's also not just Cadillac but large car sales are down for the overall industry.

Again, raw numbers alone can be misleading as they do not show what's going on behind the scenes. When salesmen steer customers into smaller models because they have been incentivized to do so because GM is worried about their CAFE numbers for instance. Take the 2010 I mentioned earlier: I was astonished when I saw the cash paying customer only got a $5,000 discount off of MSRP while knocking $10K+ off STS's was not uncommon.

Back in '85, GM was trying to kill off the Brougham. They didn't want to make it anymore - it was a thorn in their side to build a RWD which shared nothing with the smaller FWD siblings. In national advertising the Brougham was seldom shown or promoted while pushing the FWD cars all the way, which again harmed Cadillac's CAFE rating. CAFE ratings are in essence what forced Cadillac build a car - the Cimarron - a car undesired by the market. Same for the Volt.

By the way, did you note Van Nyssen's recent comments on the Escalade? That'll be the next on the chopping block! Insanity! 

I can go on but the point is simply you are looking at the picture far too simplistically and this supposed mantra that the days of big Detroit iron are over is what they WANT you to believe. The figures telling only half the story; the rest completely (and fraudulently) omitted by the press - both automotive and otherwise.

As for the regional theory of DTS - I don't buy that either: When I nationally advertise, DTS gets far more responses compared to almost none for smaller models (advertised identically) the picture is pretty clear that region has nothing to do with it. I cannot speak to the XTS because I haven't had any yet but anecdotally, I can report the DTS customers expressed dislike for that model instead preferring the DTS which is a far better looking car - at least to my eyes and have yet to find someone in disagreement.

In any case, if a strong preference for small/crossover Cadillac cars exists over large ones, I have seen little evidence of it in practice - the [skewed] sales figures notwithstanding. Firsthand experience in the trenches provides insight that data alone cannot.

Although Cadillac certainly did initially expect the Fleetwood Brougham/Brougham's days to have been numbered, it actually still got half-decent national publicity back then and was also one of the focus models when GMAC in conjunction with the various GM brands launched the "Smart Lease" program in 1988.  Unfortunately, its sales continued their decline.  When Cadillac invested in and brought out the new Fleetwood for 1993, its sales from the beginning were even lower than the averages seen for FWB/Brougham in that mid to late 1980s period.

Regarding 2010, both DTSs and STSs were seeing pretty good discounts thanks to dealer cash and a variety of potential rebates, depending on buyer qualifications, available.  Still, neither car did particularly well that year in sales with SRX (#1) and CTS (#2) far outselling them.  Even Escalade sales were around 45% higher than DTS.

Move forward to today.  Cadillac invested a lot, including marketing dollars, in the new CT6 and its sales are still quite low compared to similar sized Cadillacs of past decades despite the notable attention, rebates, discounts and dealer incentives.

I am actually a fan of the "large sedans" like DTS but have also watched many remain for sale for loooong periods of time and/or sell for quite cheap prices even w/low miles.   Regardless, what may or may not do well as several year old and cheap(er) used cars or in certain markets does not necessarily mean it was or is right for the new car buyer or new car market which continues to see declining large car sales.

We can continue this debate on and on but I firmly believe that the current environment on many levels just doesn’t speak well for the salability/desirability of large cars anything like it once did and Cadillac and other brands that once relied so heavily on and were so associated with that segment of the market had been beaten down.   I personally look forward to when large sedans can make a nice comeback but it may be a while, if it happens to any meaningful degree at all.

Big Apple Caddy,

You can get statistics to favor any point of view.  Not sure how old you are.  In the mid to late 1970's in Cleveland, OH Cadillac was it, and MB was unknown.  Besides in OH the roads are flat and straight, and my 1968 Thunderbird with 429 V-8 (maybe I'm a better driver) blew the 1972 MB 280 is the weeds at the stop light.  I really thought the MB was terrible in the mid 1970's because it was not that fast and road unsmooth.  Maybe it was great at high speed, but at the time the speed limit was 55mph and most did not vary too much from it unlike now.

Contrast that to 1985 when Cadillac "had a good year", and MB was vastly superior.  To me 1985 was a bad year for Cadillac because their product was terrible and it set the stage for an unavoidable bleak future.  The future of automotive trends were not difficult to figure out back in the late 1970's and 1980's.  By 1982 it was very obvious any muscle car or convertible would be valuable (that is why they are around today).  Also it was obvious that the early 1980 Cadillacs were not good IMO and they would loose market share in the near future.   

Maybe in NY MB was appreciated in 1970's but not in OH.

Here is hoping Cadillac returns to former glory!  The new advertisement is a start.

I wanted to note that in this ad, at around the 40 second point, is the 1st public shot of Cadillac's new Super Cruise.  This is hands free driving.  The green bar on the steering wheel shows the system is engaged.

The CT6 is a very fine car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMD5KXYJq_w

David

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on March 04, 2017, 03:56:40 PM
Maybe in NY MB was appreciated in 1970's but not in OH.

You can't assume that was the case for all of Ohio.  Just because you feel or felt that way, doesn’t mean everyone else in the state did.  I think there's become too much assumption here among us that personal feelings or experiences are or were the norm everywhere else.  Like Eric in a post above suggesting that large Cadillac sedans were still popular just because one particular deal on one particular DTS only showed a $5,000 discount when it was new, and supposedly low versus STSs.  I've seen numerous examples of new 2010 DTSs being discounted much higher than $5,000 back then and at levels comparable to STSs.  Sure, some new 2010 DTSs may have sold for only $5,000 off (maybe buyers took 0% financing instead of certain rebates?) but others were discounted more.  Sure, some people in Ohio may have "appreciated" Cadillacs over Mercedes in the early 1970s but everybody?

I guess my point in all of this is to simply explain why I tend to use and prefer broader "statistics" and information to support comments rather than rely too much on personal "on off" situations or examples.  Well, I think we've thoroughly gone off the original topic of this thread.

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on March 04, 2017, 03:56:40 PM
Here is hoping Cadillac returns to former glory!

Cadillac's future will be Cadillac’s future and just like in times past, there will be some happy and some disappointed with whatever that "future" is.   The definition of its past, present, and future "glory" can be different for different people.

Quote from: David King  (kz78hy) on March 04, 2017, 04:15:21 PM
I wanted to note that in this ad, at around the 40 second point, is the 1st public shot of Cadillac's new Super Cruise.  This is hands free driving.  The green bar on the steering wheel shows the system is engaged.

Yes.  For better or worse those types of "high tech" features are coming to a new Cadillac near you in the future.

Oh, brother...  suddenly Cadillacs are going to drive themselves but they killed off Guidematic in 1987...  well, at least you can sit in the driver's seat and click the high beams off and on...

No matter what anyone may say, I simply don't believe there's not a market for a large luxury car. While I do not dispute that segment has shrunken, there is still a viable portion of buyers who want a car that can transport 4 adults for a long trip in comfort and who don't want to have to buy a truck-based vehicle to do it.

I only proffered the example of the 2010 DTS Premium sale as one possible explanation as to why DTS sales had declined given the tactics GM had used in the past once it's been decided to kill off a vehicle. Contrast that with the fanfare they gave the final 1976 Eldorado Convertible in which final year sales increased to 14,000 compared with just under 10,000 the year before. Of course, there are also external forces such as CAFE ratings, in addition to decreased advertising and incentives/disincentives that can tip the scales in either direction.

In any case, I can only repeat my own sales experiences which leave little question in my mind which Cadillac models have consistently done well for me and which have not - and over a long period of time, and with wide market exposure.

Big Apple Caddy,

There is nothing you can write that is going to convince me that Cadillacs were not the thing over MB in the 1970's.  By the end of the decade I had visited twenty states, traveled to many major cities, went to College in PA, hung out in affluent Summit, NJ and the like.  Cadillacs dominated.  I think even on this one if you run your stats, you will see the MB luxury sedans (I think S class was 1972 first year?) were outsold by Cadillac in USA during 1970's, albeit MB gained market share later in the decade.  So this I drop out.

Eric,

I agree there is a market for large luxury sedans, and I do want one in RWD V-8 please.  I loath to by foreign, but may have to.  Last one I enjoyed was a 1995 RWD which I would have purchased again inn 2005 after I sold it if they still made them.  Drove it 254k trouble free enjoyable miles.  Sure the market may have shrunk, but it remains, as otherwise it is unlikely Cadillac would spent all the money developing CT6 with revolutionary carbon fiber/aluminum uni-body to reduce weight by 1,000 lbs.

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on March 05, 2017, 03:20:35 PM
There is nothing you can write that is going to convince me that Cadillacs were not the thing over MB in the 1970's.

I get that your personal view is that Cadillacs were a "bigger deal" than MBs in the 70s and I wasn't trying to change your personal, subjective feelings.  A "bigger deal" isn't exactly easy to qualify or quantify anyway.   Is something a bigger deal because it sells more and is much more widely available and accessible (Cadillac) or does that make it less of a big deal because it’s more common?  Is something a bigger deal because it can command a lot more money or does that make it less of a big deal because it's more out of the reach and mind of the everyday Joe?    Just commenting.........not really looking for answers! 

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on March 05, 2017, 03:20:35 PM
I agree there is a market for large luxury sedans, and I do want one in RWD V-8 please.

As far large luxury sedans go, even today Cadillac sells more in the U.S. than Mercedes.  Last year, Mercedes-Benz sold less than 19,000 (figure also includes coupes and convertibles) S-Class models while Cadillac sold over 31,000 XTSs and CT6s.  Of course there is still "a market" and Cadillac is still a very big player in that market.  It's just a much much smaller market.

Even if the market is smaller, does that mean it makes sense for Cadillac not to fill that void?  How many different sedans does GM develop, market and sell? 

Can we not do one that is in Fleetwood territory?  Just one?  Is this really that hard? 

As someone else said, the commercial market alone sorta calls out for one.  But you could do a big sedan, a stretched ct6 (ct8, I know, i know)...and even if you sell less, even if you build less, you are filling a niche that doesn't seem to be marketed to right now. 

This is why I think that, despite the claims that the niche isnt profitable, that big sedans dont sell, I think the real problem is that the Cadillac brass doesnt really like Cadillac.

___________________________

While I'm at it, why dont we have an El Camino?  What is it with these guys?  People have a soft spot for El Caminos and Eldorados and Broncos and Challengers and all these cars, IMO, are a good idea in a world where there are so many really pedestrian designs.   

Quote from: WTL on March 05, 2017, 09:00:08 PM
Even if the market is smaller, does that mean it makes sense for Cadillac not to fill that void?

Despite the shrunken large luxury sedan market, Cadillac still offers not just one but two large luxury sedans right now.

Quote from: WTL on March 05, 2017, 09:00:08 PM
This is why I think that, despite the claims that the niche isnt profitable, that big sedans dont sell, I think the real problem is that the Cadillac brass doesnt really like Cadillac.

Doesn't like Cadillac???   They're investing over $12 billion to develop a bunch of new Cadillac models through 2020 or so.  One of those is a yet to be announced flagship.

The horse's own mouth said the new flagship would not be a sedan.  Your own statements also have questioned the idea of a large sedan.  Ct6 is the closest we are gonna get, so lets not now try to have it the other way and pretend we are in "fleetwood territory".  The CT6 is basically the same length as the first generation seville, a car that at the time was marketed as being a premium smaller Cadillac.   

As for not liking Cadillac, the whole tenor of this discussion, as well as the trajectory of Cadillac marketing for years, has been that Cadillac is trying distance themselves from the boat like grandpa mobiles.  That is what I meant by not liking Cadillac, and I think, despite the investment of money, it is pretty clearly a correct remark.  They seem to be somewhat at odds with the legacy.  Its as if McDonalds decided that burgers are not profitable anymore (which may be true), and decided to make personal pizzas and drop burgers.  Yes maybe they can rebrand themselves as a premium competitor dealing in a wholly different food item, but at this point to do so they might as well just get a new name with that capital outlay.  McDonalds means burgers, and Cadillac means big freaking luxury vehicles...not corvettes with burl interior, or european sport sedans. 

Quote from: WTL on March 06, 2017, 12:15:31 PM
The horse's own mouth said the new flagship would not be a sedan.  Your own statements also have questioned the idea of a large sedan. 

I wasn't suggesting the flagship was going to be a four door sedan (!!maybe it will be a four door coupe!! ;)) just that one of the upcoming new models will be the yet to be announced flagship.

Quote from: WTL on March 06, 2017, 12:15:31 PM
Cadillac means big freaking luxury vehicles

This is much more about the changing market environment than GM arbitrarily deciding something.   

I suppose you think that the NY Times should stick with their print editions forever?   The phone companies should stick with landline phones forever?  Eastman Kodak should've stuck with making camera film forever?  Smith Corona should've stuck with making typewriters forever?  Blockbuster should’ve stuck with rental stores forever?  I could go on and on but my point is that just because a business or brand once may have been so very well known and popular for something doesn’t mean that will be the case forever and trying to stick too much to the past can be very unwise to the point of even leading to the end of the company/brand forever.

Tastes, interests, technology, and what defines a certain standard, norm or whatever can change and evolve.  "Big freaking" domestic luxury automobiles may have been the norm in past decades but we're in the 2010s now and Cadillac needs to keep moving forward just as it did from the types of vehicles it sold way back in 1903.

What does technology have to do with the proportions necessary to transport 4 adults in comfort plus a week's worth of luggage?

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 06, 2017, 03:13:34 PM
What does technology have to do with the proportions necessary to transport 4 adults in comfort plus a week's worth of luggage?

Good luck getting a weeks worth of luggage in the trunk of anything today.   The last road trip I went on with two other buddies for a week had three full sized suitcase and three carry-on sized duffle bags.  We barely got them in the trunk of Brand Xs largest luxury car.    Which brings a good point about large cars used by Livery or "black car" services.  Its sad to think that you'll have to get picked up at the airport in a luxury SUV if you have any other passengers and luggage.

But here is the thing;  Cadillac isn't by itself. Blockbuster was.   Cadillac is but one division of the larger GM pie, which has the ability to branch out among all of its divisions a collective lineup that serves most tastes, including emerging ones - and not to confuse the public generally with conflicting signals and poor, nondescriptive nomenclature. 

Not every car GM sells has to be a huge profit.  Cadillac, cause of its name is uniquely positioned to be the one American car company offering a car at the top echelon price and build wise, all the while you allow the midsized sedan market to be served by Impalas, Regals, ect...you make as much money as you can there, and then you rebrand the Elmiraj the Eldorado, and stretch a similar version into a sedan (fleetwood).  Look at the Mercedes Maybach, it is 214 inches. 

Cadillac will only kill the memory of the  180 hp Devilles if it builds a car that puts that thought to rest.  It needs to own it's heritage, not run from it. 

Quote from: D.Smith on March 06, 2017, 03:22:37 PM
Good luck getting a weeks worth of luggage in the trunk of anything today.   The last road trip I went on with two other buddies for a week had three full sized suitcase and three carry-on sized duffle bags.  We barely got them in the trunk of Brand Xs largest luxury car.    Which brings a good point about large cars used by Livery or "black car" services.  Its sad to think that you'll have to get picked up at the airport in a luxury SUV if you have any other passengers and luggage.

Unless your buds are particularly heavy travelers, an 1980 RWD should have been up to the task.  ;)

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 06, 2017, 03:13:34 PM
What does technology have to do with the proportions necessary to transport 4 adults in comfort plus a week's worth of luggage?

The main reason I included technology was simply because it is among various things that can contribute to changes in the market environment.  But as far as cars go and with WTL's references to exterior lengths, technology has helped improve and advance design, engineering, etc. to allow cars to still be "big" inside while smaller/shorter outside.

Quote from: WTL on March 06, 2017, 03:23:04 PM
But here is the thing;  Cadillac isn't by itself. Blockbuster was.   Cadillac is but one division of the larger GM pie, which has the ability to branch out among all of its divisions a collective lineup that serves most tastes, including emerging ones - and not to confuse the public generally with conflicting signals and poor, nondescriptive nomenclature.

Blockbuster typically wasn't "by itself" and was part of larger corporate entities that included other entertainment related divisions.  Cadillac, part of GM, has seen its large sedan business greatly decline but since they don't want to see Cadillac disappear they are investing heavily to introduce new models that will be more popular and profitable in the current market and perhaps eventually even allow them to tackle more niche segments down the road.

Quote from: WTL on March 06, 2017, 03:23:04 PM
Look at the Mercedes Maybach, it is 214 inches.

If you are that hung up on the length of a car and 204.1” isn’t long enough for you, go out and buy yourself a $167,000+ Mercedes-Maybach S550 with its poor, nondescriptive nomenclature.    For a whole lot less money, you could also get yourself a custom stretched Cadillac from a Cadillac Master Coachbuilder or Cadillac Professional sales dealer.   Stretched sedans, limousines, they’re all out there.......have fun!    For even less still, you could also simply get a CT6 and put large 5.5” bumper guards on the front and on the back and then you’ll have your 215.1” car………even longer than the Mercedes-Maybach!!!  :)

Quote from: WTL on March 06, 2017, 03:23:04 PM
It needs to own it's heritage, not run from it.

Cadillac needs to operate in the present and look to the future and not get too stuck in the past. 

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 06, 2017, 05:08:56 PM
Unless your buds are particularly heavy travelers, an 1980 RWD should have been up to the task.  ;)

Unfortunately Hertz doesn't rent those anymore. LOL

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on March 06, 2017, 05:47:21 PM
...technology has helped improve and advance design, engineering, etc. to allow cars to still be "big" inside while smaller/shorter outside.

No doubt, however "efficient" use of space can only be taken so far before styling is sacrificed.

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on March 06, 2017, 06:13:26 PM

Cadillac needs to operate in the present and look to the future and not get too stuck in the past.

The future is the proliferation of car companies that continue to make more reliable cars, cheaply, with each company delving into luxury and further saturating the market. 

That is why Cadillac has to be The Standard of the World.  It has to position itself as being #1 The best and #2 A different type of luxury from the other contenders. 

Otherwise, it really will be just one of many.  Eventually, the many Hyundais of the automotive world will take over.  That is why Cadillac needs to sharpen their focus on what they have done well, and stop playing a game they cannot win. 

There is room at the top, and only the top for Cadillac.  CT6? OK is not good enough.   

Quote from: WTL on March 06, 2017, 07:04:35 PM
CT6? OK is not good enough.   

The CT6 may end up "it" as far as being the longest sedan in Cadillac's upcoming lineup.  You've talked about "Fleetwood territory" but just as in the past, even a longer car wouldn't necessarily be the company's flagship sedan as far as price level.  The shorter Seville has often been the brand's priciest sedan.  The 1993-96 Fleetwood was priced at the lower end of the Cadillac lineup while the Seville SLS/STS was several to many thousands higher during that time AND had thousands more buyers.

If Cadillac goes with a performance sports coupe/convertible for its "flagship", you may be looking at a car shorter than even the ATS.

We can sit here and argue WHEN Mercedes became the ne plus ultra luxury car for the masses. Did they pass Cadillac in the 1970's? The 1980's? Who cares! What IS readily apparent is that they changed the paradigm of what luxury cars should be. Did they do it by having plusher interiors, a larger selection of paint chips, more chrome, a softer ride? No, they redefined the category with better braking, a cleaner design,  taunt suspension, and an adherence to quality.....one example of which would be witnessed through consistent panel gaps. Having said that, what I don't understand today is Cadillac's slavish devotion to everything having to do with Stuttgart! You'll never get back to being number one if you're constantly comparing your product to the standard-bearer. "Look, it's just about as good as the new Whamo"! No, Cadillac has to do what Mercedes did in the past. Cadillac has to change the paradigm. They have to CHANGE THE GAME. The world does not need another S class car .I'm giving my kudos here to the folks at Lincoln. You look at and drive a new Continental and I'll bet that during the design phase, the engineering and marketing staff spent all of one hour discussing Mercedes and Audi. The pre-production model they released during the shows last year was the first car to make me sit up and notice in I don't know how long. Naturally, it got watered down when it hit the showroom. But there's nothing else like it out there in the luxury car space. They changed the game. Dare Greatly Indeed! 

At least the best health insurance policies are dubbed "Cadillac Plans".  8)

Unfortunately I cannot afford one of those...

Quote from: Chas on March 07, 2017, 03:36:48 PM
We can sit here and argue WHEN Mercedes became the ne plus ultra luxury car for the masses. Did they pass Cadillac in the 1970's? The 1980's? Who cares! What IS readily apparent is that they changed the paradigm of what luxury cars should be. Did they do it by having plusher interiors, a larger selection of paint chips, more chrome, a softer ride? No, they redefined the category with better braking, a cleaner design,  taunt suspension, and an adherence to quality.....one example of which would be witnessed through consistent panel gaps. Having said that, what I don't understand today is Cadillac's slavish devotion to everything having to do with Stuttgart! You'll never get back to being number one if you're constantly comparing your product to the standard-bearer. "Look, it's just about as good as the new Whamo"! No, Cadillac has to do what Mercedes did in the past. Cadillac has to change the paradigm. They have to CHANGE THE GAME. The world does not need another S class car .I'm giving my kudos here to the folks at Lincoln. You look at and drive a new Continental and I'll bet that during the design phase, the engineering and marketing staff spent all of one hour discussing Mercedes and Audi. The pre-production model they released during the shows last year was the first car to make me sit up and notice in I don't know how long. Naturally, it got watered down when it hit the showroom. But there's nothing else like it out there in the luxury car space. They changed the game. Dare Greatly Indeed!

I agree with everything you said, and think you said it better than I have been saying.  You can't beat Mercedes with their own formula, so I am fiddling with ideas on how Cadillac can raise above the german cars.  I also agree that Lincoln is at least attempting to do what Cadillac should be doing, right down to even the marketing.  Matthew McConnehy doing donuts on a lakebed is way better than people walking backwards in some big city (the big apple??? ::)). 

Quote from: Chas on March 07, 2017, 03:36:48 PM
We can sit here and argue WHEN Mercedes became the ne plus ultra luxury car for the masses. Did they pass Cadillac in the 1970's? The 1980's? Who cares!

If the premise is that MB was once "behind" Cadillac and that they eventually "passed" Cadillac, then the when does matter as that will better help determine the why.  I don’t know what decided that Cadillac is/was #1 anyway.   Based on what?  What were the criteria?   What brands were considered the competition?

Quote from: Chas on March 07, 2017, 03:36:48 PM
What IS readily apparent is that they changed the paradigm of what luxury cars should be. Did they do it by having plusher interiors, a larger selection of paint chips, more chrome, a softer ride?  No, they redefined the category with better braking, a cleaner design,  taunt suspension, and an adherence to quality.....one example of which would be witnessed through consistent panel gaps. Having said that, what I don't understand today is Cadillac's slavish devotion to everything having to do with Stuttgart!  You'll never get back to being number one if you're constantly comparing your product to the standard-bearer. "Look, it's just about as good as the new Whamo"! No, Cadillac has to do what Mercedes did in the past. Cadillac has to change the paradigm. They have to CHANGE THE GAME. The world does not need another S class car .

That's all fine but what also can't be ignored is that Mercedes went down market more into Cadillac territory.  For so many years here, even the cheapest MBs had higher base prices than many, most or all of the Cadillac models at the time and then MBs started to become less than the cheapest Cadillac.  Sure, both brands (and others) have gone down market but MB really has.

MB has also tacked the hot crossover/SUV market more aggressively than Cadillac.  At least Caddy does have a couple of new crossovers coming out over the next couple years which should really help to boost sales for the brand.  It will still give them fewer than MB, though.

Quote from: Chas on March 07, 2017, 03:36:48 PM
I'm giving my kudos here to the folks at Lincoln. You look at and drive a new Continental and I'll bet that during the design phase, the engineering and marketing staff spent all of one hour discussing Mercedes and Audi. 

I had thought just as Cadillac was basically trying to positioning itself against MB and BMW, Lincoln was basically trying to position itself against Lexus, Infiniti and Audi.   The market has become more global with more direct import luxury competition here and a greater desire for the domestic brands to compete overseas.

Quote from: Chas on March 07, 2017, 03:36:48 PM
The pre-production model they released during the shows last year was the first car to make me sit up and notice in I don't know how long. Naturally, it got watered down when it hit the showroom. But there's nothing else like it out there in the luxury car space. They changed the game. Dare Greatly Indeed!

I think it's a stretch to say there's absolutely "nothing else like it in the luxury car space."  Continental name aside, even Cadillac's own aging XTS has many similar attributes: four door sedan, FWD or AWD, V6 engines with up to 400 or so hp, similar size, pricing, etc.

Agree with Big Apple Caddy about the new Lincoln Continental.  It is a FWD V-6, and the writes up call it a mid size car.  The production version was watered down from show car - that chrome around bottom of show car made it cool and unique - now it is like any other car.  Lincoln should have saved the Continental name for a better car.  Frankly, I think Cadillac has a better chance than Lincoln to capture more of the luxury car market.  Advertising is important, but all these cars ultimately speak for themselves when they are driven and seen in person.  Have generally heard positives for the CT6. 

Today I received "Cadillac Magazine" in my e-mail. Although I have purchased three new Cadillac CTS's (2003, 2008 and 2013), and I perceive myself as a desired repeat customer (being a 52 year old professional), the featured articles are somewhat vulgar to my tastes. Here is a link to some of them on the Cadillac web-site:

http://www.cadillac.com/world-of-cadillac/cadillac-house.html?eVar36=MRM_eml_cad_own_Q1_en_0317_14906277452

This content lacks sophistication and refinement and it does not, in my opinion, reflect qualities customarily associated with standards of good taste. Until Johan DeNyscheen (sp?) and his team, Cadillac marketing projected a more genteel positioning of the brand.

I would rather see these funds spent offering better products with more distinctive styling, as my previous post alluded to--such as a convertible with an array of colors for personalization (even if optional, such as Mercedes' Designo editions). The CT6 interiors, in all but the Platinum editions, regularly receive criticism from reviewers for the excessive use of plastic and "GM parts bin" hardware.

It would be helpful if new Cadillacs had a bigger role in the ads. This corporate social commentary is a far-fetched scheme to propel Cadillac back to Standard of the World status. Small wonder the U.S. market sales of new Cadillacs continues to decline.

Folks seem to be throwing their opinion's in the ring so here goes mine. I have owned over 30 old Cadillac's ranging from 1955 thru 3 - 1990 Brougham's . I am 62 I now have a 1972 Cadillac Fleetwood Eldorado Convertible that I bought about November 2014. I state the car's whole name as one of my big gripes is this ct6 xtz stuff. I still maintain Cadillac has in the past always been an American  leader and went their own way . If people want a Mercedes or a BMW they will buy one not a GM built American foreign car wanna be. Our every day car is a 2016 Dodge Challenger shaker Hemi , and a 2005 Dodge Hemi pickup Rumble Bee . The thing these two vehicles have in common is that they look , feel and drive like an American car . Also there are choices in colors and interior. I personally am sick to death of white , black , silver and gray cars with no chrome and black or gray interior's that are all little 4 door pillared sedans with black wall tires  . They refer to the new Cadillac's as luxury cars well their definition of luxury and mine are two different things. To me Luxury means long wheel base , flowing lines Chrome , pleasing color choices both in and out . In my mind Cadillac died a long time ago . No joke I would not trade my '72 for a new Cadillac even up , they bore me to tears. One Mans Opinion .

AMEN, Bill!!!!  Exactly what I've been saying for years.

Now that I'm in a position to buy a new Cadillac, there's not one I'd throw my money away on.  Never thought that would happen in my life.

Hear, hear!

True, I dreamed of the day that could drive to a Cadillac dealer any buy any new one I wanted.  That day came in 2005 when my 1995 Fleetwood was time to be replaced (bought it used in 1997).  There was nothing they made that was of any interested so bought a RWD Hemi-V-8 Dodge Charger for cash, which was nice but not as great as the 1995 Fleetwood.  It was better IMO (have to have RWD V-8 that seats 5 comfortably) than any new Cadillac at the time especially if the 33k price is factored in.  I still own the 2006 Dodge Charger today, it was trouble free, and will probably gift it to my daughter this May when she graduates college and starts her career.  The CT6 is the only Cadillac that comes close, but hate the no V-8 thing - understand one may be on the way.  Now that my daughter is leaving the nest, now I can get by with a car that seats 4 comfortably, and soon just two passengers.

BTW Bill - so true!

I liked their choice of "Green" on 1941 chosen for advertisement - a lot of Black ones out there, but the Greens were very popular choices in 1941.

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on March 12, 2017, 12:04:33 PM
True, I dreamed of the day that could drive to a Cadillac dealer any buy any new one I wanted.  That day came in 2005 when my 1995 Fleetwood was time to be replaced (bought it used in 1997).  There was nothing they made that was of any interested so bought a RWD Hemi-V-8 Dodge Charger for cash, which was nice but not as great as the 1995 Fleetwood.  It was better IMO (have to have RWD V-8 that seats 5 comfortably) than any new Cadillac at the time especially if the 33k price is factored in.

Any new one you wanted?  You didn't like the 2006 Cadillac STS?  It was RWD with available V8, similar passenger volume as the Charger, etc.   It was also more affordably priced, inflation adjusted, than the front drive Seville SLS from ten years earlier.

Big Apple Caddy,

The 2006 STS to me was not a large car.  The rear legroom was not there and the trunk was not that large.  The Dodge Charger has much better rear seat leg room and seems way larger.  If the 2006 DTS was RWD probably would have bought that.  Plus cannot deny that the Dodge with RWD Hemi V-8 was half the price of an STS w/V-8.

Back in 2005 in September bought the Dodge, then in November bought my first classic my 1970 red DVC, and in 2006 a new Suburban for my wife.  Since then bought two more 1970 Cadillacs.  Now I have as my daily drivers a 2007 CVPI, plus of course the three 1970 Cadillacs.  My wife (2014 Chrysler 300 w/hemi V-8) and three kids are all good on cars for now.  I'm thinking again, that I'm ready for a new car.

Here it is 2017 and there is not an urgency for me to buy a new car, but by 2019 I will probably do it.  There remains no large RWD V-8 powered Cadillac with a good size back seat for what over 20 years now.  Since the 2007 CVPI will probably last the rest of my life, if the new Cadillac Flagship is really cool, might consider it.

Agreed 100% with Scot - the interior room 2006 STS is not generously sized by any stretch of the imagination. So cramped in fact, my father said, what the ^#%* Cadillac is this? "We'll take the Buick" (his '96 Park Avenue) which, I regret to say is far more comfortable and rides infinitely better than the STS. I also have to admit the Park Ave seems to ride a lot better than 2006 - 2011 DTS models as well.

Comfort never goes out of style and I repeat, the market is saturated with the so called European "sports sedan" concept. What else contributed more to Cadillac's success over the decades than the being the ultimate in comfort? 

Maybe the CT6 rides like a Park Avenue -  I have my doubts but we'll see.

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on March 13, 2017, 09:08:57 AM
Plus cannot deny that the Dodge with RWD Hemi V-8 was half the price of an STS w/V-8.

You could get into a V8 STS for a lot less than twice the price of a Charger V8 but it does have a smallish trunk.

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on March 13, 2017, 09:08:57 AM
Here it is 2017 and there is not an urgency for me to buy a new car, but by 2019 I will probably do it.  There remains no large RWD V-8 powered Cadillac with a good size back seat for what over 20 years now.  Since the 2007 CVPI will probably last the rest of my life, if the new Cadillac Flagship is really cool, might consider it.

Cadillac has hinted that there would be a V8 for the CT6 but nothing, that I know of, has been made official yet.

Lincoln doesn't offer a V8 in any of their models right now, nor do they have a RWD sedan of any size.  I'm not sure what their future plans are.  Cadillac and Lincoln seem to focus more on the imports than each other these days but it will be interesting to see what the coming years bring for both brands.

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 13, 2017, 09:28:28 AM
Agreed 100% with Scot - the interior room 2006 STS is not generously sized by any stretch of the imagination. So cramped in fact, my father said, what the ^#%* Cadillac is this? "We'll take the Buick" (his '96 Park Avenue) which, I regret to say is far more comfortable and rides infinitely better than the STS. I also have to admit the Park Ave seems to ride a lot better than 2006 - 2011 DTS models as well.

The '96 Buick Park Avenue was certainly a bigger car than the later STS just as the DTS was a bigger car than the STS.

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on March 13, 2017, 10:05:08 AM
...the DTS was a bigger car than the STS.

...and the '96 Park Avenue.