Many people still do not know about a CT6. Somehow Cadillac has got to get the word out.
Had to hire a ride last week (could have done cab or uber), but this only happens once a year or so and employed a limo service. This is not as expensive of a service as limo because you get picked up in a late model luxury normal sedan and the driver is professional and knows the route. Anyway this chauffer was driving a Lincoln front drive 6 cylinder, and we got to talking and he was thinking of buying one of these new himself. He mentioned that he thought the XTS was not really worth it. He did not even know a CT6 existed. I suggested it, he brought it up on his phone and seemed really pleased with it. This driver has served me before and probably will again in the future.
He wanted to buy his own luxury sedan because his employer offered a higher pay if the chauffer used their own luxury sedan instead of a company vehicle. Let's hope the next time I see him he picks me up in a CT6.
Hopefully more people learn about the CT6. Living in prosperous DC metropolitan area, with five of the ten richest Counties in the Country, I do not see to many CT6's driving around. When I see one they stand out, kind of like in 2006 when the new Dodge Charger came out.
CT6 is part of the problem. All these 3-letter combinations are. They mean nothing. XTS, CT6, BLS or whatever. Give the car a proper name.
Cadillac used to have names on cars that told something. Like Eldorado or DeVille. Now the names means nothing and because of that people don't know about Cadillac. You can still buy a Impala or a Mustang. You would know what these names stand for. But Cadillac got rid of its complete heritage when removing the proper model names.
At a glance I can't tell a ATS from a CTS or a XTS or a CT6
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on April 29, 2017, 08:32:31 AM
Many people still do not know about a CT6. Somehow Cadillac has got to get the word out.
Cadillac spent a lot of money promoting/advertising the CT6, even before it officially went on sale early last year. It has also gotten a lot of press online. I guess no matter how much press and advertising something gets or how easily accessible information is online (e.g., automaker websites, third party vehicle information and pricing sites, forums, etc), there will
still always be people ignorant to what is available in the market. I really don't think CT6’s low sales are due to lack of "getting the word out." Lincoln has been promoting the Continental a good amount too plus the return of "Continental" got a lot of press and yet its sales are low as well. There just isn't the market right now for these types of cars like there used to be.
Quote from: CLC 30326 on April 29, 2017, 09:17:27 AM
CT6 is part of the problem. All these 3-letter combinations are. They mean nothing. XTS, CT6, BLS or whatever. Give the car a proper name.
Cadillac used to have names on cars that told something. Like Eldorado or DeVille. Now the names means nothing and because of that people don't know about Cadillac. You can still buy a Impala or a Mustang. You would know what these names stand for. But Cadillac got rid of its complete heritage when removing the proper model names.
The new Lincoln Continental has a "proper name" and yet its sales are low compared to past times too. Cadillac has been using 3-letter names for a while now. Like them or not (I don't like them, myself), I don't think U.S. sales declines in their car lines can be blamed that much on the model names.
Despite its well known and proper name, Impala sales have been declining rapidly too.
It seems to me, the Cadillac sedans almost "overlap" one another. There is little differentiation in their outward appearances, unless you are an enthusiast. They are sized within inches of one another. The CT6 lacks enough of the customary Cadillac design cues--the trunk center crease could be more prominent, the tail lamps are too much like the S-Class (rather than Cadillac-like), and of course, the wreath is gone from the crest. Cadillacs have always been about style. The interior does not quite measure up to the price level, unless perhaps the Platinum version is chosen. With some tweaking, the CT6 could be selling much more than it does. Although I love the Cadillac brand, and I have driven a CT6, I do not find the CT6 compelling enough to rush to order one. I also do not prefer the alpha-numeric names, but they're not a "deal breaker."
Quote from: Rich S on April 29, 2017, 11:06:33 AM
They are sized within inches of one another.
I think the current Cadillac sedans are reasonably diverse size-wise. They fall into three EPA size classifications: compact, midsize and large. As far as overall length, the largest sedan (CT6) is over 21 inches longer than the smallest (ATS). There have been many times in Cadillac's history where the length differences between the sedans were similar/comparable to today.
Point is here is a qualified buyer who is in the market for car just like CT6 and does not even know it existed- he was probably 35 years old and he did know about XTS. Clearly, the name although not what I would have chosen, was not a barrier - plus no way would I not buy a wonderful car due to the name unless it was horrifically derogatory (unlikely).
Probably it is just that for what ever reason Cadillac marketing did not reach him. He was a super high tech connected guy. He had two phones going, one because Google Maps is better than the nav. system in the Lincoln, and another to communicate and look up stuff like CT6. Well in any event he does know now and the info was delivered in time to possibly snag a CT6 sale.
I have seen CT6's on the road and do not have any trouble distinguishing them from lesser Cadillac models, that may well be me. The Lincoln Continental is on the road now, but in lesser numbers (my experience) than Cadillac CT6 - looks decent, but the best you will ever do is an eco boost 6, whereas Cadillac may have a V-8 in the CT6 - that is the hope.
Maybe Cadillac needs to get one shot in an extremely favorable position in a cool new block buster movie? Clearly the 54k price, great mileage (with 4 cyl) and longest top of the line model needs to be told to the world. Billboards on major highways in cities where traffic jams occur regularly?
I saw a commercial recently by Cadillac that made me stop and listen, AND LOOK.
A Cadillac sedan being touted - pimped - to go 200 miles per hour.
Who cares if you will ever go that fast - everyone else knows you can & more importantly - so do you.
The 200 MPH is the hook - certainly not its looks, clone at best of other makes.
I say.
Hammer the speed aspect and then big time tweak the styling to be stunningly and INSTANTLY recognizable as a GO FAST CAD - then who cares what the numbers and letters stand for.
The car MUST be recognizable - distinguishable - in an instant - by its looks = I WANT ONE (oh and it goes fast too).
IMHO.
Have fun,
Steve B.
PS
Like a dog with a bone, for God's sake dump the meaningless "think greatly" - also tagged in the commercial text at the end.
Scot,
I twigged to your comment about getting Cads into the movies - or better in my view, MADE FOR TV SERIES.
It is beginning to happen.
There is a series on TV called APB - plot Billionaire takes over failing Police precinct.
Totally upgrades everything to state of the art tech to catch the bad guys.
And what kind of new police cars do they have - wait for it - 200 MPH CADILLACS.
There may be some license with the body kit - ground effects - can't be sure.
But, more of this kind of Cadillacs in action exposure, I think would help bolster recognition outside the luxury sedan box to something more exciting - visceral.
I'm just say'n.
Have fun,
Steve B.
For me, this was the last truly memorable Cadillac commercial.
Drive the Dream (1999).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u2KFRwLK6k
I respect every ones opinion. My Mother used to say every ones different that's why they make chocolate and Vanilla. For me a Car has to stir up something inside me when I see it AND when I drive it. The Cadillac's from 1953 thru 1979 trip my trigger and I must not be totally alone as Cadillac sold over 350,000 cars in 1979. Now I know that due to regulations and things they cannot produce clones of those cars BUT when did luxury in a cars definition become a short 4 door pillared sedan in white , gray , silver or black vehicle that you cannot order a front bench seat in that goes really fast as it's biggest selling point ? Not to me anyway. I am not trying to be a jerk but if Cadillac ever wanted me to enter their showroom again they are heading in the wrong direction in my opinion. We own and drive a 2016 Dodge Hemi Shaker Challenger , a 1972 Eldorado Convertible and a 2005 Dodge Ram 1500 Hemi Rumblebee. Also a 1965 18ft. Lyman w/95hp. 1965 Merc 900 and trailer.
Every time I drive my 76 Eldorado convertible, someone comes up to me and says that cars like mine were the last time they ever really fit in a car and enjoyed driving, without being crippled up at the end of a long drive. I agree - I drove 8 hours yesterday, in two 4 hour spurts, and my arthritis never squawked at me at all.
I think that there is an untapped market for big cars. Before anyone scoffs, consider cell phones. Who knew that there was a market for constant conversation before cell phones made it possible to talk nonstop, everywhere? Shortly (relatively speaking) after cell phones became widely available, everyone was talking a LOT more, in all sorts of places. It was a market that I never knew existed until everyone, everywhere, had one stuck on his or her ear.
I'd love to see Cadillac return to the six seater but it seems they are more interested in competing in the sport/luxury market. They are focused on filling their cars with geegaws and doodads instead of just being comfortable.
"Big" cars are now SUVs.
And I agree. You need to be able to distinguish between 1 car and another in both look and name. Quite frankly I don't know the difference between any of them-Lincoln is the same way. Give them a name for crying out loud.
Jeff
When people complain that the ATS, CTS and CT6 look too similar and can only be told apart by Cadillac enthusiasts, I'll point out that the same can be said about our beloved early 70s Cadillacs. Calais, Deville and Fleetwood. To the untrained eye, do you think they know a Calais from a Deville by the lack of rocker moldings? Or a 74 Fleetwood by it's B-pillar vs. a 74 Sedan Deville? Basic front and rear styling was the same other than badging. You wanted your neighbor to know you had the newest Cadillac no matter if they didn't know what model it was until they got close enough to read the emblems. Same with BMW today. 3-series, 5-series, 7-series, all just size and content variations.
Lincolns recent styling is all over the place. Some MK models had vertical grilles, some horizontal, the new Continental another design altogether. No design continuity at all. The best thing about the new Continental is its name. Take off all the emblems and you'd have no idea what brand it was. I'm sure it will sell more copies in China than the US. Just like Buick does now.
I agree the biggest problem with the CT6 is its name. CTS was the smallest Cadillac when it came out and when it was the new must-have car for younger people. Calling the new flagship a CT anything just confuses people. To many they just think it must be a 6 cylinder version of the CTS. CT6. Horrible name. They need to rename it asap. Biggest model? Just call it "FLEETWOOD". Don't call it a Sixty Special. New buyers have no idea what that means. Don't call it a "DAY EL AY GANCE" as Jay Leno jokingly referred to them. Just FLEETWOOD. An old name that pretty much everyone remembers hearing as the big daddy of Caddys. Trust me. If they renamed the CT6 "FLEETWOOD" tomorrow, every Rapper and Hollywood wanna-be will go buy one. And once you get them in movies, videos and red carpet events, sales will jump.
BUT you could tell a Cadillac from a Lincoln or Chrysler back then. To even think "compact" car and Cadillac makes me cringe... throw in station wagons and monster trucks...
I went to the PFDA convention last week and spoke with several pro car manufacturers. One said there will only be 800 professional chassis Cadillacs made for the year. At one time, that number was over 3,000. And nobody needs the CUE system in a hearse...
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on April 29, 2017, 01:09:52 PM
Probably it is just that for what ever reason Cadillac marketing did not reach him. He was a super high tech connected guy. He had two phones going, one because Google Maps is better than the nav. system in the Lincoln, and another to communicate and look up stuff like CT6.
It sounds like he may have been just making conversation or is a
very passive shopper right now. A serious, "high tech connected" luxury sedan shopper would do their homework and be able to quickly learn about the CT6 via one of many auto websites including Cadillac.com. Just a quick Google search of "current Cadillac sedans", "Cadillac luxury sedans" or similar will have the CT6 among top results.
The CT6 isn't seeing great sales numbers because large sedans overall aren't seeing the kind of sales numbers that they used to. It's not just a Cadillac issue nor is it because large amounts of relevant (i.e. serious potential buyers) people are unaware they exist.
Some seem to think that just because their large car (new/late model or classic) attracts compliments or positive reactions that there must be this huge untapped market for similar cars but the fact is that pretty much all cars can attract compliments (large, small, new, old) and it doesn't necessarily mean much of anything in the larger picture. Same is true for negative comments. Some criticize large cars, especially older ones, as gas hogs, environmentally unfriendly or whatever but that doesn’t necessarily mean those feelings are widespread.
Quote from: Walter Youshock on April 30, 2017, 08:35:57 AM
BUT you could tell a Cadillac from a Lincoln or Chrysler back then.
BUT many people CAN tell the difference today too. The sentiment that cars look too much alike has been around for
many decades, especially with older generations. Authors of numerous articles in magazines and newspapers from 1940s, 50s, 60s, 70s, etc have shared their opinions about cars of that time looking too much alike. It's a view held by some that seems to be repeated with each passing generation.
When funeral directors stop driving Cadillacs and stop buying hearse and limousines, guess what--they've got a very serious image problem.
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on April 30, 2017, 08:55:14 AM
Some criticize large cars, especially older ones, as gas hogs, environmentally unfriendly or whatever but that doesn’t necessarily mean those feelings are widespread.
Not to mention todays full sized cars are still better on gas than the monster SUVs and pickup trucks that sell in huge in numbers. I'd bet you that 90% of them haul nothing more than groceries.
Jumping in again.
Somebody is missing the point if you need to Google a car to get the info one might need to decern one make or model designation from another - let alone to buy.
There was a time when you knew it was a Cadillac; and it really didn't matter if it was this or that model or even what year - IT WAS A CADILLAC.
And apart from that, you knew that person was SOMEBODY.
No matter what it is, right down to finding your girlfriend or wife - LOOKS CATCH YOUR EYE - AND PURSUIT FOLLOWS. (i'll get PC letters on this)
In the more recent years, there has been little to catch the eye about Cadillac design.
There is something very profound about "BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME" - since the competing manufacturers pricing tracks along with each other, why not distinguish yourself with distinctive Cadillac design.
DUMP - "Dare Greatly" for DESIGN GREATLY.
Have fun,
Steve B.
Rename the Ciel to Eldorado and start producing it. It will sell and it will bring back life to the brand Cadillac!
Quote from: 59-in-pieces on April 30, 2017, 12:32:34 PM
Somebody is missing the point if you need to Google a car to get the info one might need to decern one make or model designation from another - let alone to buy.
There was a time when you knew it was a Cadillac; and it really didn't matter if it was this or that model or even what year - IT WAS A CADILLAC.
My post about searching online was not to be able to discern one make or model from another but rather to be made aware of what models existed (in response to Scot's comment re: livery driver).
A lot of people CAN recognize today's Cadillacs and CAN tell one model from another. Some can't but as I've stated here before, comments about cars looking too much alike have been around for a
very long time.
Quote from: 59-in-pieces on April 30, 2017, 12:32:34 PM
And apart from that, you knew that person was SOMEBODY.
This point I agree with but it's not just a Cadillac issue as it is also true for other luxury brands. Pricing combined with longer term financing and/or aggressive lease deals have made it easier and easier for buyers to get into a new Cadillac, Lincoln, Mercedes, BMW, etc.
sorry fans I service the livery driver industry and every time I drive an XTS and Camry in the same day I am amazed at how little difference there is on the road
Cadillac once owned the commercial and livery industry, heck Carey limousine was named Carey Cadillac limousine
the XTS is not excellent in any way, and costs a fortune to keep on the road
remember when Cadillac was king of the division there was little competition
last week same day,16 XTS 39k miles 15 Lincoln MKT and 16 Camry drove them all, lots of road noise, harsh ride nothing like a luxury ride, when town car died so did luxury livery service fleet
and yes, none of these new units rides like my 310k mile 05 town car
remember when Cadillac was king there was no sedan that could compare with a Fleetwood, and up to 70 they were very good running cars as well
A. Stromstedt,
I agree with you about the Ciel.
I would also offer up 2 more, which would cause me to turn over my hard earned shekles:
The Elmiraj and The V-16 (wouldn't even need to have a V-16, the looks alone are compelling).
Oh, and perhaps more to your point about names - not a one of the concept cars has indecipherable or uniquely distinguishable letters or numbers.
Have fun,
Steve B.
wrefakis,
I have driven a late model Camry, and what a total POS. It drove terrible in my driveway! Have never driven an XTS or equivalent Lincoln. Guess I will keep driving my 2007 CVPI, which really is great, and should last forever. When CT6 is V-8 powered will not be able to resist considering it though. I like that car, but have not driven or even rode in it yet.
camry is pos trouble is xts drives very much the same and needs more service to stay on road
Did I just hear correctly that the Cary has "safety automatic high beams"????
ANOTHER Cadillac convenience that was thrown out 30 years ago...
The Avalon looks better all the time... Wonder if they have automatic parking brake releases, too...
Walter...Intellibeam (auto headlamp dimming) was a new option beginning in 2006 model year. It actually works much better than the Guidematic.
Quote from: Bill Young on April 29, 2017, 05:48:59 PM
For me a Car has to stir up something inside me when I see it AND when I drive it.
We had our annual Cadillac Through the Years event yesterday.
Near the name plaza, we had a row of, give or take,
- 1946 Convertible
- 1949 Limousine
- 2017 CT6
- 1917 Touring
- 1946 Sedan
- 1930s
My reaction was that the 2017 made it look like someone's butler brought his own car . . .
Anyway, at least CT6 and CT4 let us see at a glance how many cylinders are missing . . . . choosing between a 400hp, or even 500hp six, and a 300hp eight is a no-brainer . . .
hawk
Quote from: 59-in-pieces on May 02, 2017, 02:49:26 PM
Oh, and perhaps more to your point about names - not a one of the concept cars has indecipherable or uniquely distinguishable letters or numbers.
As much as I prefer model names like DeVille, Fleetwood, Seville, etc for
nostalgic reasons, I wouldn't consider Cadillac's new (or even outgoing ATS, CTS, etc) model names indecipherable. As far as the new ones, CT refers to cars and XT refers to crossovers, and the number (e.g., 5 in XT5) refers to the position/level in the lineup. It's pretty straightforward.
Luxury import brands also use alphanumeric model names and many are seeing record sales here. Alphanumeric names should easily be able to work for Cadillac as well.
Quote from: dochawk on May 03, 2017, 12:10:53 AM
Anyway, at least CT6 and CT4 let us see at a glance how many cylinders are missing . . . .
CT4? The numbers in the new Cadillac model names have nothing to do with cylinder count.
I tend to agree about the model names (CTS, CT6, etc.).
I've had an emerald green 2017 CT6 (Premium Luxury) for two months now. I've owned a lot of Cadillacs, and this is the best, by far, in my opinion. Wonderful ride and handling, powerful, agile, excellent fit and finish, endless technology. VERY quiet. The only thing I don't like about it is that I haven't yet learned all the features.
Consumer Reports gave it a 95 score on the road test. Almost no other cars have matched that.
How it will age is unknown. We won't know that for some time. But for now, I'm loving it.
And I love my 41 Fleetwood, too.
Dennis
I am sorry, but the CT6 is just a horrible name for a luxury car, let alone a Cadillac.
The problem that Cadillac is having with itself these days is not just it's image, but it's overall identity for it's customers to know what model means what.
My dad, for instance, is old school and owns a 2002 Town Car, he wants something new and will be in the market for a luxury car soon, I told him about the CT6 and he was like "What the heck is that"?
I had to show a picture of it, and he really wasn't all that impressed with it's styling.
Knowing him, he wont buy the CT6 because the name itself is terrible. He wants a car that is well known and comfortable. I told him although the CT6 is nice, it probably still wont ride as nice as his Town Car. The Lexus LS460 is probably the closest thing in terms of ride quality that he is searching for. Not to mention the Lexus overall fit and finish, quality of materials, performance, and reliability destroys the Town Car by a landslide.
I drove the new Lincoln Continental Black label edition at a car show late last year, and I was fascinated and impressed by the car, especially it's interior quality and styling. But the car rode rough and choppy although it was very very quiet inside. If I could afford a $60,000-70,000 luxury car, the damn thing better ride perfectly and I don't want to feel any pot holes or rough stuff below me, and the Continental failed at doing just that. I blame the 20-inch wheels with rubber band tires, but still, engineers should have been able to figure out a way to make the ride smoother since big rim vehicles are a norm these days.
I don't think any modern luxury car with typical strut set up will ever ride as nice as a Cadillac from the 60's and 70's, or even the RWD Cads from the 80's and 90's.
I am currently leasing a 16 Altima for my job, and even though it is a new car and drives well for the most part and has great performance, the ride is really rough on bad streets and course pavement. The road noise is loud on the freeway especially on concrete.
Road noise is low or non-existent under 35mph, but around 50mph the noise goes up big time! I researched the car just out of curiosity, and Nissan added extra sound insulation on the 2016 models vs the prior years, and the car is still loud.
So after driving this car all day long, and getting back into my 94 Fleetwood, it's like a night and day difference! The Cadillac rides so much better, is more comfortable, and is quieter too! The Altima is like driving a hollow piece of metal, that absorbs noises through its body as the structure tries to limit it's forces, and jolts you over rough streets and pot holes badly, while the Cadillac being fully-framed just drives composed and rides much differently and is not as affected as much by our rough streets.
The Fleetwood deflects the noises and impacts, rather than absorbing them, the benefits of having a heavy framed car with SLA suspension vs Struts. Driving over the same stretch of streets in my city was really noticeable. The Fleetwood road noise doesn't change a whole lot while driving on different pavements and quality of streets, but in the Altima, you definitely feel and hear the differences, and it's not good.
The closest car that rides as nice, if not better than my Fleetwood and is super quiet, is the Chrysler 300 that I rented a few years ago. The 300 is so underrated and undervalued that it's sad. You get a V8, RWD, long wheelbase, great tech features, masculine good styling for a reasonable price. Sure the interior quality isn't that great, and the car isn't considered "true" luxury, but you get a decent amount of room inside, and the car rides better than any mid-size or most other luxury cars out there for half of the price.
64Caddylackie and others on name,
I'm with you all and even most CT6 owners, not thinking the name is that great. However, you wrote that your Dad (64 Caddylackie) did not like the styling and that is the main reason he is not driving over to the Cadillac dealership. Other CT6 owners still bought it despite the name. The name is not the barrier to purchasing the car. It could be a marketing issue. If Cadillac sold a RWD convertible with a back seat that actually accommodated adults comfortably with a V-8, or a 5 passenger large sedan RWD V-8 those would be must haves on my buy list no matter the name.
I started the post about why is this CT6 Cadillac unknown to many perspective purchasers, such as the limo driver and etc., and it could be the name. However, if was not in CLC might not have heard of it either.
The marketing problem with the CT6 (besides the stupid name) is that people don't know how big it is unless it is parked next to the smaller models. A picture of the car on a billboard doesn't convey size. They see the CT6 name and doesn't mean anything to them. The name may designate the platform but not to the average person. Put that car on a billboard with the name FLEETWOOD above it and the phrase "It's big and it's back" and that will motivate people to go to a dealer and see what its all about.
Dave that is a good point, the styling doesn't convey the size of the car in print. That is a separate issue from actual size, a 1970s Deville looks long even in photographs. CT6 looks pretty much like a CTS. Maybe if you get a shot that is directly in profile you can tell, otherwise good luck.
I suspect the problem is the marketing of CT6, not that most people wont buy a CT6 once they become aware of it's existence.
I would have no clue that it exists if not for keeping a close eye on Cadillac.
I agree that Fleetwood and Eldorado should be used again, at least on the American market. Just try that, and then see if Seville and Deville need to be brought back.
To specifically blame the CT6 name itself for lack of familiarity with the model is a stretch. The alphanumeric XT5 model name was also new and that model is seeing very good sales for Cadillac.
Any time a company introduces a new model and/or changes its model names (whatever they may be), there is going to be a period of unfamiliarity especially among non-auto enthusiasts, those not in the market or those who are very passive shoppers. In today's digital world, there is little excuse not to know or be able to easily find out what models are available as well as related details if one has an interest, is a serious/active shopper, and has even average internet skills.
If Mercedes-Benz buyers can figure out that brand's new models, new model names/rebranding, etc. and allow it to enjoy record year after record year as the top selling luxury brand in the U.S., Cadillac buyers should also be able to figure out and become aware of Cadillac's models and names. It's not rocket science.
Cadillac's sales issues right now are more about desirability than familiarity. The segment where Cadillac used to shine brightly (large sedans) just isn't nearly as in demand with buyers in general these days. If that segment was as popular as it used to be, the CT6 would be selling much better regardless of name.
As you repeatedly note, the XT5 is a utilitarian vehicle that people popularly desire. I'm willing to bet not many people can identify it by its name either, but if they want a crossover and go to a dealership with the wife and kids and they walk the lot, it has as good a chance as any of going home with them.
Maybe we can build one area of consensus here? - a new Fleetwood/CT8/renamed CT6...would be a specialty vehicle. Can we agree on that?
It's purpose isn't to be the sales flagship, but rather an option for admirers of Cadillac - fans of what it has traditionally been. A moral flagship maybe. As such, it does not necessarily need to be built in huge numbers. But I would argue it does need to be built.
Such a car would need to be set apart from the rest of the lineup. Escalade too is set apart. Why not Fleetwood? What is it really hurting to just give in? lol, the trim letters arent that expensive! (Or maybe they are, considering the Escala...)
NO DESIRE FOR BIG SEDANS??? REALLY???? Have you actually read the responses posted here??????
So if you don't want a shopping cart, you can get an over - glorified station wagon or monster truck... that's it.
Quote from: WTL on May 04, 2017, 12:59:12 PM
Maybe we can build one area of consensus here? - a new Fleetwood/CT8/renamed CT6...would be a specialty vehicle. Can we agree on that?
It's purpose isn't to be the sales flagship, but rather an option for admirers of Cadillac - fans of what it has traditionally been. A moral flagship maybe. As such, it does not necessarily need to be built in huge numbers. But I would argue it does need to be built.
Such a car would need to be set apart from the rest of the lineup. Escalade too is set apart. Why not Fleetwood? What is it really hurting to just give in? lol, the trim letters arent that expensive! (Or maybe they are, considering the Escala...)
The Fleetwood name carries undesirable baggage (e.g., old man car, land yacht, etc) and didn't sell particularly well in 1993-96 (smaller DeVille sold much, much better) even when large sedans were more in demand. Typical new buyers today simply aren't seeking large sedans like they used nor view them as positively as they used to and for Cadillac to go too deeply into that segment can
potentially hurt sales (old man, land yacht image) more than help.
The CT6 is a very fine car and it would sell much better if the market for those types of cars was as strong as it used to be. Right now, Cadillac needs more presence in segments that are growing/popular (crossovers/SUVs) than in those that have been in decline (large sedans).
As far as "specialty" vehicles, I think Cadillac's yet to be announced flagship model will likely fall into that category. So far there has been little word on what it WILL be, only that it WON'T be a "large four-door sedan" at least according to DeNysschen. My guess has been that it will be some sort of performance sports car coupe/convertible but who knows?
Quote from: Walter Youshock on May 04, 2017, 05:21:14 PM
NO DESIRE FOR BIG SEDANS??? REALLY???? Have you actually read the responses posted here??????
I don't think anyone here has said there is NO desire for big sedans, just a lot less so. One would expect comments expressed on a site with such a strong bias towards older/classic cars (when large sedans were much more common and in demand) to show interest in large sedans but that' only reflects a fraction of the broader interest or demand of new vehicles buyers today. The demand for large sedans just isn't there like it used to be.
Big Apple Caddy is probably right about reduced demand for large luxury sedans. Always enjoy this forum and like the participants, and if we are really looking at ourselves honestly you can read BAC is on the money for this topic. This forum is a minority in public demand, otherwise there would be a lot more classic cars on the road. If you read the critics on this forum even if Cadillac made a large V-8 RWD sedan and called it Fleetwood, this forum may write justifications not to buy it. The CT6 is really a great looking RWD car and large enough, but still you read negatives than expected. I applaud the forum participants who have bought the CT6 and wrote in about it.
For me it is too tempting to buy a used luxury car and pay 50% of msrp with a great warranty than to buy new, but it is not ruled out. If CT6 is V-8 equipped probably will buy a two year old one, the soonest that would be is model year 2018 and a 2020 purchase. If my work and investments go well will buy a new one.
Hopefully Cadillac will get the word out on CT6 to qualified buyers and sales will go up, which will improve the image.
While the demand for full size luxury cars may not be what it had been in the past, by no means has it evaporated completely either, ie: commercial, livery service and such in addition to private use. And what could be more fitting than for Cadillac to fulfill this niche?
Stylewise however, is where the CT6 is lacking in my opinion. To my eyes, it is either a large car that is trying to look like a small one - or a very bloated small car. An ATS on steroids if you will. It lacks the grace, distinction and presence of the proud top of the line full size Cadillac sedans of the past.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, stylistically - Cadillac needs to do some soul searching and decide which path it wants to take: Distinction & greatness or crowd-following mediocrity.
Eric,
No one is saying the large sedan market is gone, just that it is less than it was - things always change, so demand either changes up or down. In consideration of all large sedans offered today on the luxurious side, say Chrysler 300, Cadillac, Lincoln, MB, BMW, Jag, Lexus, and the like what would you buy in say the 70k plus or minus 15k price range that exemplifies the style you wish CT6 had?
I did buy a brand new 2014 Chrysler 300 with hemi V-8 because my wife wanted it and it was the least expensive of this group by far. BTW she thought it was a Cadillac at first (she saw the back of it - and had to have it). She was content to get a 6 cylinder, but I said "You are married to me, it is a V-8 or nothing" in joking way, but kind of was the truth.
In cities like Washington DC where I live near (20 miles exactly), NY, and Boston for example many of the buildings were constructed before SUV's were a thing and SUV's are often too tall to fit into parking garages. The Kennedy Center in DC, is a great example, as it was completed in late 1960's or so. My wife could never drive the Suburban there. Plus in a city, back-up cameras and all a sedan is much easier to park than an SUV. This parking garage issue, parking in crowded areas, and other limitations within city areas is a likely contributor to increased crossover vehicle sales - roomy - 5 passengers no problem - manages city driving/parking limitations easier than Escalade.
I have seen several CT6's driving around and I think they look great.
Eric,
I am glad we agree.
A number of other posters seem to make excuses - expressing a sentiment of "WE'RE GETTING BETTER".
How you stay behind is always trying to catch up, or fit in.
STAND OUT - the front end design with its knife edge treatments speaks Cadillac - the rest not so much - if at all.
As with Eric, I've said it before, and I'll say it again - "Dump Dare Greatly" - and adopt "Design Greatly" = "Uniquely".
Have fun,
Steve B.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on May 05, 2017, 12:22:10 PM
Eric,
No one is saying the large sedan market is gone, just that it is less than it was - things always change, so demand either changes up or down. In consideration of all large sedans offered today on the luxurious side, say Chrysler 300, Cadillac, Lincoln, MB, BMW, Jag, Lexus, and the like what would you buy in say the 70k plus or minus 15k price range that exemplifies the style you wish CT6 had?
Scot...I think you may have missed the first sentence of my post:
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on May 05, 2017, 10:17:17 AM
While the demand for full size luxury cars may not be what it had been in the past, by no means has it evaporated completely either..
In any case, I am glad you mentioned the Chrysler 300. Although I'm no fan, it is distinctive in its own way and was a huge hit when it first appeared. Other examples of retro styling are the PT Cruiser, Challenger, Camaro and Mustang - all of which have proved popular with buyers.
Why is it that the automobile division whose motto is "Dare Greatly" has products among the least inspired of all? Vertical taillights alone don't cut it.
Quote from: 59-in-pieces on May 05, 2017, 12:25:04 PM
Eric,
I am glad we agree.
A number of other posters seem to make excuses - expressing a sentiment of "WE'RE GETTING BETTER".
How you stay behind is always trying to catch up, or fit in.
STAND OUT - the front end design with its knife edge treatments speaks Cadillac - the rest not so much - if at all.
As with Eric, I've said it before, and I'll say it again - "Dump Dare Greatly" - and adopt "Design Greatly" = "Uniquely".
Have fun,
Steve B.
Steve..."Dare Greatly" - as much as it "greatly" pains me to say it - itself is lacking in self confidence and assuredness.
It is as if the Division is desperately trying to convince itself of something they know their products are anything but.
"Standard of the World" said it all.
When they can't even come up with a decent tagline - that pretty much says it all. ::)
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on May 05, 2017, 01:45:13 PM
Steve...Cadillac's motto - as much as it "greatly" pains me to say it - itself is lacking in self confidence and assuredness.
It is as if the Division is desperately trying to convince itself of something they know their products are anything but.
"Standard of the World" said it all.
When they can't even come up with a decent tagline - that pretty much says it all. ::)
As much as I love Cadillacs, they haven't been a relevant brand in over 20 years. I know they are trying, and their products have improved immensely from just 5 years ago, but they honestly have a serious marketing issue that has haunted them for a very long time now.
I mean, when was the last time any of you have seen a great TV commercial from Cadillac? If they are trying to get more buyers to look at the CT6, then a massive marketing campaign needs to follow suit or else nobody will ever know about it.
As much as I used to bash Lincoln over the years for their horrible product lineup, the brand finally saw the light and built the Continental. Sure it's not the best looking car and is mostly unoriginal in its styling, but you can tell by its efforts that were put into the car, and how the company is advertising it on TV and in print. Lincoln isn't shying away from it's past anymore, and is actually embracing it, being the luxury car company that attracts the educated, sophisticated, younger buyer that is done being in a little luxury sports car and wants something cool, big, and comfortable that can allow his or her friends along for the ride.
You compare them to Cadillac, and Cadillacs by far has the worst marketing campaign in the business. It's like they arent even trying, and the slogan is pretty lame if you ask me.
I agree "Design Greatly" would be a great change-up, and one I think is more honest with the public.
Names do matter to a lot of luxury car buyers, including styling, so if someone that is an established luxury car buyer and maybe has owned 2 or 3 newish ones, I really feel like the buyer is going to want to purchase a new car that has some identity to it. A name that is recognizable among the luxury world.
The CT6 sounds like the designers got too lazy and unimaginable to even care about what the public thinks, rather than having at least a couple of names in their lineup to make the car truly stand out in the crowded luxury field with the same nomenclature lineups throughout the industry, a good solid name would and could have helped the model. It's like the company is afraid if they name a car, people won't buy it. So they have nothing to lose.
I still love the Ciel and Elmiraj. Why can't they just use those? Is upper management that stingy and uptight to not care? It's common sense and a no brainer for them to use at least one of those names for a flagship. Arghhh, The frustration continues.
Dare Greatly...
Eric (and other CT6 don't like the style posters)
Take a look at my question in #44. Please reread question about what modern car you would buy if you had to. Looking for answer. I would buy the V-8 equipped CT6 if it existed, otherwise probably the MB S class w/smallest V-8.
I agree a retro 1962 Cadillac would sell really well, heck I would even consider a V-6 version.
De gustibus non est disputandum. :)
Eric,
What does that mean? I'm an engineer, not a language major. I take it to mean you choose nothing and are not content with the current selection. You are a purchasing agent for a livery service - what are you buying?
Eric,
"In matters of taste, there can be no disputes" (literally "about tastes ...
Have fun,
Steve B.
As easy as copying and pasting that phrase to Google, it will translate it for you.
Eric,
I get it.
The fins, oh the fins, and the "skegs".
But, I will try to hammer the point home again in the hopes that some GM - Cadillac - Exec. might get his hands on this and cause an itch.
Back in the day, Cadillacs apart from its distinctive good looks gained acclaim from its mechanical and electric innovations.
Well, today all of Cadillac's competition has almost exactly the same mechanical and electric - oops - electronics innovations and creature comforts.
So what is left to set Cadillac apart once again - ain't going to be the price - and all things being equal - it needs to be - must be - it's DESIGN.
Have fun,
Steve B.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on May 06, 2017, 02:03:04 PM
You are a purchasing agent for a livery service - what are you buying?
The last good car for livery service was the Lincoln Town Car, IMO.
Today, it seems a lot of livery operations have defaulted to Escalade/Yukon/Tahoe, Navigator and stretched variants of the above if you want the durability & ride isolation inherent in full frame RWD configured vehicles. That coupled with generous roominess makes these the logical choice for many operators.
Truck classification means these vehicles are not subject to the draconian fuel economy regulations which apply to passenger cars. The net result being the government effectively legislated the full size car off the road for truck-based vehicles whose emissions, economy and are far worse than what would have been the case for regular full size cars that could have been built under more reasonable fuel economy standards! In my view, all fuel economy standards should be abolished and the market decide what cars should be built, in what numbers, at whatever fuel consumption the individual buyer is willing to tolerate. That is another matter.
As for my own personal choice for transportation if I had to choose from new cars only - I'd really have to do some serious soul searching on that.
Quote from: 59-in-pieces on May 06, 2017, 08:58:39 PM
Eric,
I get it.
The fins, oh the fins, and the "skegs".
But, I will try to hammer the point home again in the hopes that some GM - Cadillac - Exec. might get his hands on this and cause an itch.
Back in the day, Cadillacs apart from its distinctive good looks gained acclaim from its mechanical and electric innovations.
Well, today all of Cadillac's competition has almost exactly the same mechanical and electric - oops - electronics innovations and creature comforts.
So what is left to set Cadillac apart once again - ain't going to be the price - and all things being equal - it needs to be - must be - it's DESIGN.
Have fun,
Steve B.
Steve...you have aced everything on all points 100%.
If you have any kind of "in", I wish you all the luck in the world in your efforts in getting some of them to see the light. What I wouldn't give for an hour audience with top Cadillac brass - even just 15 minutes...
Eric,
I agree with just a sort audience - don't need to cover old ground about the invention of the wheel.
Just shot gun the poignant issues.
Here's where I walk the edge of Political Correctness - letters to follow, likely.
Hold that meeting, although probably not avoidable, without the 36 year old Marketing Maven.
Who was born long about 1981, and maybe got a license in about 1998.
It might be said that much of the recitals of Cadillac greatness had passed during that period, and the scramble for relevance began.
It is hard to equate or express to others eras of design in the past, when you didn't live them.
Nor do past magazines with 2 dimensional marketing ads convey the flavor of an ice cream cone to any reader who hasn't tasted one.
Just say'n.
Have fun,
Steve B.
Eric, 59 in pieces and others with similar posts.
I could not agree more that Cadillac really produced some of the finest cars with respect to their completion at the time and even now in their glory years, for me that is late 1950's thru 1979, plus loved those 1994-1996 RWD FWB's. Your posts of the 57 Eldorado Brougham, 59 EBZ and 62 black coupe drive this point home - nothing but maybe a few offerings at the time compared.
BTW I'm 56 and a professional engineer (not 36 year old marketer).
I found the hotel for GN 2017. It is super nice 4 star, best Hilton (#1) in North and South America and it is adjacent to corporate headquarters - hope you like it. The reason I volunteered was because was not super happy with some past GN hotels, and the main parts of a successful GN is the weather and hotel. Anyway point is not happy with past and became part of the proactive solution.
It is so easy to criticize. So I asked what modern luxury sedan you would buy today, because it is not the CT6, and a non-response an exotic response in a foreign language was delivered. Cadillac is not likely to manufacture the 1962 retro body again it sure seems. If they did you must have an idea of what my prediction would be about your reaction to it.
Again, how about it? What luxury sedan would you buy today if you had to and then everyone will know what direction Cadillac should maybe consider? It is better to own a classic that continues to be manufactured today (Olds and Pontiac owners relate), so how can CT6 improve sales?
A 1962 Cadillac won't be built again but there's no reason styling elements from it cannot be incorporated into an all new Cadillac just as other manufacturers had done in the examples cited above.
I chose 61/62 because it's a style relatively unfamiliar with most of the motoring public - yet is extremely popular with younger people today. The styling elements of 61/62 is unique to those model years only. Since there are so many different elements to the design of these models, the combinations of which and how many of these elements to employ are virtually limitless.
Using 61/62 as a starting point, the studios should be able to come up with a Cadillac that is genuinely distinctive once again that would be a hit with the public. Heaven knows they need it.
Agree, if Cadillac did use the 61/62 Cadillac as a starting point for a retro design, I would probably buy it. The problem with SUV's is the parking garage issue, so in DC metro area the Escalade can be limited, whereas a sedan never will. Further, while SUV's are car like, they are not quite able to match the comfort of a car, and a car is often much more fun to drive. I drive my Crown Vic over the Suburban any day of the week.
I think people need to stop blaming model names (All of the top selling luxury brands in the states, many of which have seen record sales here within the last few years, use letter and/or number model names quite successfully) or styling for Cadillac's lower large luxury (starting price over $40K) sedan sales. Cadillac is still currently the top selling brand in that segment. The issue is really more about the decline of the large sedan segment than what Cadillac may or may not be doing.
They can't sell what they don't build...
Quote from: Walter Youshock on May 08, 2017, 12:08:14 PM
They can't sell what they don't build...
Right and in this market that means building more crossovers and SUVs. Cadillac’s XT5 has been well received and is currently outselling each of the crossovers/SUV models from Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi, Acura, Lincoln, Land Rover, Infiniti, Porsche, and Volvo.............but they need more and at least two more are on the way.
As mentioned before, Cadillac is doing pretty well with large luxury sedans
considering how much that segment has shrunken overall. They’re selling more than anyone else in that segment. They'd be selling a lot more CT6s and XTSs (same names, same styles, etc) if the large sedan market was what it was in decades past but it isn't and so they aren't. The market for large sedans just isn't there like it once was and who knows when or if that will change.
All I "hear" - see - is blah blah blah - excuses - self justification - segments and niches - gaining on the leader of the best buggy whip - get it "whip".
A car maker - it seems to me - does not live on bread alone (SUV's), but rather a smorgasbord of other models.
And if that car maker is going to succeed - over all - each part of the menu must be appetizing - and that hinges on "what it looks like", before the car buying public wants to taste it = buy it.
Someone vary wise once wrote - "They can't sell what they don't build..."
And in my world that = DUH! - TRUE DAT.
Have fun,
Steve B.
If you are selling tons of XT5s, great! Keep the volume of XT5s high. Sounds like they nailed a sweet area.
Escalades too. Keep selling them. I just don't see why Cadillac can't chew gum and walk. Is a CT8 that expensive to produce? Did Cadillac forget how to scale up a car?
Quote from: 59-in-pieces on May 09, 2017, 01:37:17 PM
A car maker - it seems to me - does not live on bread alone (SUV's), but rather a smorgasbord of other models.
Huh? I guess you must be referring to brands like Jeep and Land Rover because Cadillac DOES have a diverse lineup. In addition to a crossover and SUV, they offer compact, midsize and large cars. They offer luxury models as well as performance models. They offer coupes as well as sedans. If anything, Cadillac hasn't expanded enough into the crossover/SUV segment and that's the problem as a lot of current market growth is and has been in that segment.
Quote from: WTL on May 09, 2017, 07:51:39 PM
I just don't see why Cadillac can't chew gum and walk. Is a CT8 that expensive to produce? Did Cadillac forget how to scale up a car?
Cadillac probably doesn't feel there is profit or enough profit to build a larger-than-CT6 right now because there is not enough demand or appeal for that type of car. Today's new car buyers don't seek out or admire the large luxury sedans like they used to. Plus, Cadillac's last very large sedan (1993-96 Fleetwood) brought in their oldest buyers (average age of buyers of the 1993-96 Fleetwood at the time was late 60s) and Cadillac is trying to minimize the "old man car" image. On top of that, the 1993-96 Fleetwood didn't sell particularly well anyway (smaller DeVille sold much, much better) considering large sedans overall were a lot more popular back then. Things are different today and large sedans just don't carry near the appeal they once did.
Oh, absolutely--with the greatest amount of elderly in America ever as the Baby Boomers age... sure, they don't need or want a large CAR that's easy to enter and exit... or the fact yhat people are getting bigger and bigger... or the fact that gas is relatively cheap now and more and more people are driving than flying... perfect time to NOT have that type of luxury car...
So what if they lost a few bucks on it? They supposedly lost 10k on every Eldorado Brougham and didn't care. The publicity was worth every penny. The series 75 was sold at a loss, too. But almost every wedding, funeral, and opening night had one.
Lotta market share not being tapped to me.
Quote from: Walter Youshock on May 10, 2017, 04:13:01 PM
Oh, absolutely--with the greatest amount of elderly in America ever as the Baby Boomers age... sure, they don't need or want a large CAR that's easy to enter and exit... or the fact yhat people are getting bigger and bigger... or the fact that gas is relatively cheap now and more and more people are driving than flying... perfect time to NOT have that type of luxury car...
So what if they lost a few bucks on it? They supposedly lost 10k on every Eldorado Brougham and didn't care. The publicity was worth every penny. The series 75 was sold at a loss, too. But almost every wedding, funeral, and opening night had one.
Lotta market share not being tapped to me.
Good point. Older people in general at a certain age, their bodies are a lot more sensitive to things, this is why for years the elderly or older folks tend to prefer bigger, softer riding, more comfortable cars since it's easier on the body as well as easier to get in and out of. I can't count how many newer cars I've driven and the ride of most vehicles are stiff and overly harsh. You feel the road impacts and noise more than you do in an older full-size Cadillac. As this country continues to age, the demand for soft riding, quiet cars will be a huge market seller in the near future.
Even some young people I know, can't stand harsh riding cars, and would rather drive something that is more balanced. Just go on other general automotive forums online, and you'll notice the similar complaints of modern cars riding overly stiff.
The reason why the full-size luxury sedans from Cadillac aren't selling that great compared to their SUV counterparts is that for the same or less amount of money, you can get a CUV that can hold more people, and has better cargo room, similar features, and tech than any sedan could ever offer.
What's missing here is a full-size Cadillac that is strikingly beautiful and exciting, worth owning on looks alone. They are not building sedans where it's styling is worth the asking price. This is something I am starting to realize.
Imagine if Cadillac built the Ciel concept and put it into production a few years ago? The amazing drop top, suicide doors, with that interior, and exterior design? Oh you bet buyers would flock to the dealership and pay $100,000 for one just because of how unique, cool, and excessive the car is. That thing would have been a guaranteed success, it doesn't take bean counters and stubborn management to figure it out, good old common sense is what is needed sometimes, but is sadly overlook in many places of business. Nothing in the Cadillac lineup is as amazing as that concept. I will never understand Cadillac and it's management sometimes, they can design and engineer absolutely drop dead gorgeous concepts, but the production models are so bland and generic compared to the concept, that the public either gets turned off, or upset. Asking Cadillac "Why can't you guys just build the damn thing!!!". In a sense, Cadillac isn't really being all that "Daring" like they want you to believe. Better management and a person that is willing to at least give a slight nod to Cadillac's past should be in a position to lead Cadillac into the future. Someone who is willing to go against market trends and do something different.
I would love to have a conversation with upper management at GM and Cadillac and give them an earful!
Rants over :)
I started this post with the idea that a qualified buyer of a large luxury sedan in the market to buy one, never heard of CT6, and upon my recommendation, it is now under consideration. My question was more about how can Cadillac get the word out to more qualified buyers that this beautiful car exists. Many have responded that the name or the styling was not something they would buy and this is not the issue, or a topic for another post. I enjoy the deviation many posts take and often contribute to that myself. Again this is a qualified buyer (he has the money) who wants to buy a large sedan (he is in the livery business), and when I told him the name he had no objection whatsoever. Young cool buyers that Cadillac wants, hopefully myself included don't care what the name of the car is, unless it is horrifically insulting or negative.
Back on track, exclusive of the name, any ideas to improve informing the qualified buying public about this car? A great commercial where everyone is beyond impressed when it pulls up to a very public event always seems to be effective.
I will start another post on the subject that everyone commented on.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on May 11, 2017, 08:42:00 AM
Back on track, exclusive of the name, any ideas to improve informing the qualified buying public about this car? A great commercial where everyone is beyond impressed when it pulls up to a very public event always seems to be effective.
How about a Billboard campaign like they used to do? These are from 89 when they made the cars bigger that year.
Thanks for posting those Dave.
The "Think Big" campaign was for the [re]introduction of the Fleetwood Brougham in 1986. I vividly recall a double page advertisement that had been run the WSJ proudly showing off the car in full broadside view in what was probably - and appropriately - triple black, in d'Elegance regalia with genuine wire wheels. The ad was almost as big is the car itself.
There was to be no doubt as to what the Brougham was, or its mission.