Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Hello Everyone,

I recently bought my car, almost sight unseen. I saw the car on-line, asked the owner a couple of questions, had him send me some photos, drove 50 miles to the cars location and bought it on faith (and taking the owners word) that it was as solid as it looked.

I really look forward to making this car road worthy and something that I will enjoy driving. If I get a couple of “thumbs up” approvals, that will be the icing on the cake.

Anyway, the pictures are attached showing the car being loaded on the tow truck just after I bought it.

Any words of wisdom will be welcomed. My plan is to do the interior first because the seats are so bad I don't even want to sit on them, then the engine, the exterior (paint) and the top last. Any input from experienced restorers would be appreciated.

Welcome Sturner,

What did you pay for it if you don't mind me asking?  I bought my 67 this last fall and though it is further along than yours; I'm sure your going to love it.  Mine isn't a concourse or restore job; but its on its way to being totally road worthy.  I like your comment about being "road worthy and something that you will enjoy driving.  The little bit I can recommend (depending on the direction you want to go) is EFI.  It was expensive, but fairly easy to install and makes the car cold start and drive wonderfully every time.

Quote from: sturner50502 on February 17, 2018, 09:31:06 PM
I really look forward to making this car road worthy and something that I will enjoy driving.

Hello Steve,

A few decades ago I had a '69 convertible.  Even though they are very similar, I like the '69s more so than the 70s.  I appreciate the fact that you have chosen to do a "resurrection/reincarnation" of your car.

From photo number 2, showing the headrests, I might guess that the car spent some time outside, topless.  I would therefore spend some time thoroughly examining the floor pan (remove the seats) and trunk pan (remove the spare tire and trunk liner).  There is solid, and then there is "as solid as it looks" - which, from the photos, doesn't look too solid.

On this body style, the lower front fenders are prone to rust, but this is a relatively easy fix.  Leaking convertibles in general might have rust issues in the floor, trunk, and rear quarter.

Before spending any money on any restoration, even if it just to get the car road-worthy, do a thorough, and I mean no-stone-unturned thorough assessment/inventory of the car.  Listing all that needs to be repaired/replaced first will help you establish a budget and timeline.  You can then decide if this car is worth the time and money.

I bought my '67 Sedan DeVille knowing that it needed some work, including rust repair of the front fenders and around the rear window.  Being a hardtop, my interior needs no work other than cleaning and conditioning.  I am doing all my own work.  When I finish my '67, my next Cadillac may well be a '69 convertible.  Good luck with your project, and keep us posted.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter

Welcome Sturner50502
It is good to see another 69 project going on.
I agree with savemy67 you have to pull the carpet and check the floors. Another spot to check is under the drivers kick panel I had a couple layers of rot under there too.
trunk was behind both wheel wells for me and believe it is pretty common. As he also says you should put a list together and evaluate first as the 69/70 has been skipped over in a lot of the reproduction parts.
Especially floor pans, body panels etc.. From what I can see it is already in better shape than what it started with but I have owned for about 30 yrs and have the emotional attachment.
I also agree that it looks like it was stored with the top down? Even the boot appears to have been on the convertible top? Seats and visor do seem to have been exposed to the elements?
For the motor I would at the least check out he timing chain if you look at my pictures you can see how full the oil pickup was with the plastic pieces that had fallen off the chain. There are plenty of motor parts out there
that is one thing that wasn't skipped.
Looking forward to seeing our progress!!

~Rick Laflamme

Quote from: DaddyDeVille on February 18, 2018, 01:47:35 AM
Welcome Sturner,

What did you pay for it if you don't mind me asking?  I bought my 67 this last fall and though it is further along than yours; I'm sure your going to love it.  Mine isn't a concourse or restore job; but its on its way to being totally road worthy.  I like your comment about being "road worthy and something that you will enjoy driving.  The little bit I can recommend (depending on the direction you want to go) is EFI.  It was expensive, but fairly easy to install and makes the car cold start and drive wonderfully every time.

I paid $1500 for it.

Quote from: savemy67 on February 18, 2018, 11:12:29 AM
Hello Steve,

A few decades ago I had a '69 convertible.  Even though they are very similar, I like the '69s more so than the 70s.  I appreciate the fact that you have chosen to do a "resurrection/reincarnation" of your car.

From photo number 2, showing the headrests, I might guess that the car spent some time outside, topless.  I would therefore spend some time thoroughly examining the floor pan (remove the seats) and trunk pan (remove the spare tire and trunk liner).  There is solid, and then there is "as solid as it looks" - which, from the photos, doesn't look too solid.

On this body style, the lower front fenders are prone to rust, but this is a relatively easy fix.  Leaking convertibles in general might have rust issues in the floor, trunk, and rear quarter.

Before spending any money on any restoration, even if it just to get the car road-worthy, do a thorough, and I mean no-stone-unturned thorough assessment/inventory of the car.  Listing all that needs to be repaired/replaced first will help you establish a budget and timeline.  You can then decide if this car is worth the time and money.

I bought my '67 Sedan DeVille knowing that it needed some work, including rust repair of the front fenders and around the rear window.  Being a hardtop, my interior needs no work other than cleaning and conditioning.  I am doing all my own work.  When I finish my '67, my next Cadillac may well be a '69 convertible.  Good luck with your project, and keep us posted.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the tips! You are correct the car was left outside, with the top down.  The first thing I did with the car was remove the seats, carpeting, and door panels. I brushed , scraped and cleaned the floor pans and find they have very little rust; just a couple of small holes. The rust is minor enough to be repaired with a tube of the epoxy that is made for repairing metal. I also checked the trunk and the pant has no rust issues at all. I guess that's the good part about southern California, we don't get much rain.

The lower front fenders do have some rust that I will have taken care of at the body and paint stage.

I am currently getting the seats re-upholstered. I purchased the seat covers from OPGI. When the seats are finished and installed I will post some before and after photos.

Thanks again,

Steve 

ok, very nice!

When I bought my 68 Convertible I immediately replaced all the weatherstripping with new rubber from Steele. Only about a year ago I discovered that the complete driver floor plan is rusted away. Well the weatherstripping was indeed leaking! :-D
But, it does not bother me much - it is not an integral part of the body structure.
Be sure the replace all the weatherstripping on yours! Not only because of rain, but it will keep the windnoise out too.

Quote from: DeVille68 on February 23, 2018, 01:50:29 PM
ok, very nice!

When I bought my 68 Convertible I immediately replaced all the weatherstripping with new rubber from Steele. Only about a year ago I discovered that the complete driver floor plan is rusted away. Well the weatherstripping was indeed leaking! :-D
But, it does not bother me much - it is not an integral part of the body structure.
Be sure the replace all the weatherstripping on yours! Not only because of rain, but it will keep the windnoise out too.

Good point. Weatherstripping i has been added to the list! Thanks

Reupholstered Font and Rear Seats

Here are some updated photos of my front and rear seats. I purchased seat covers from Original Parts Group Inc. (OPGI). The seat covers came in the original 1969 design. I decided to go this route because I want to keep the car as original as possible (I prefer the original look instead of customization). The quality of the OPGI seat covers is really good. I was really happy with how the covers look and feel like leather. The seat cover kit cost me around $700. I took the cover to my good friend who owns an upholstery shop and he added fresh cushions, repaired broken springs, and attached the OPGI seat cover. He told me that he charges more than $700 to make seat covers.

The only thing missing from the OPGI cover is the buttons that gives the seats the "tuft" look, which was disappointing. Unfortunately, I could only find a couple of the buttons in the debris of the deteriorated seats, and the buttons I found were so deteriorated they were unusable. If I can find some buttons in the future, They can be added to the seats.

Attached are before and after photos. The finished seats are not installed yet, as I have been working on the carpeting/flooring. I will add photos after the seats are installed.

Steve,

Does the engine "turn over?"  Does it start and run, or has the engine been dormant for years. You'll receive a lot of good advice about getting the "old gal going" depending on your response.  There are many things you simply should not do, and will potentially lead to a wrecked engine, and many mechanical processes you should do, again depending on your responses to my first questions to you.  Of course, all of the advice is also dependent on how experienced you are with automotive mechanics.  Looks like you have a great potential winner for very little money.  We all wish you well along your journey-- don't hesitate to post questions, and certainly keep the pictures coming--- we all love the pictures and detailed narratives.  Happy day, James

Quote from: James Landi on March 22, 2020, 09:13:58 AM
Steve,

Does the engine "turn over?"  Does it start and run, or has the engine been dormant for years. You'll receive a lot of good advice about getting the "old gal going" depending on your response.  There are many things you simply should not do, and will potentially lead to a wrecked engine, and many mechanical processes you should do, again depending on your responses to my first questions to you.  Of course, all of the advice is also dependent on how experienced you are with automotive mechanics.  Looks like you have a great potential winner for very little money.  We all wish you well along your journey-- don't hesitate to post questions, and certainly keep the pictures coming--- we all love the pictures and detailed narratives.  Happy day, James

Hi James,

The engine has been dormant for the almost two years that I have owned it and I am sure it was dormant for years under the previous owner. When I brought it home I checked to see if it would turn over and it did. I did not try to start it. It turned over for about 1-2 seconds... I only want to make sure the engine wasn't locked up. I have not done anything else related to starting the engine because I focused on the interior and making sure there were no "creatures" living in the vents, etc.

So now the seats/interior are finished; I will be installing the seats and turning my attention to the engine. Any advice you can give me to keep me from damaging my engine would be appreciated. I pulled the valve covers as I was curious to see what it would look like (See photos). I wanted to check for any broken springs/ bent pushrods... I didn't find anything that to cause me concern.

I drained the oil and inspected it for and metal shavings. Didn't find anything in the oil. A visual inspection of the oil showed it was mostlyblack but I did see a slight brownish tint (almost milk chocolate color) swirling through the oil.

So, two requests for you James (and the rest of the forum):
1) What steps should I take to prevent damage to my engine as I attempt to get it started?
2) What does the light brown color in the oil indicate?

Thanks everyone for going along on this ride with me as I restore my 69....

Hi Steve,

Thus far, this is all good news.  Implicit in  your response is that you understand gasoline engines, and you've already begun the "awakening" process.  A little bit of milkiness is some cause for concern, so my next step would involve a check of the engine block's cooling system.  Is the cooling system all connected-- is there coolant in the radiator?  Assuming that your car is not in freezing temperature--( a big assumption since I live in Maine) pouring water in to top off the system for the purposes of testing it would be fine.  So here's the object of this investigation--- has your engine been protected so engine  block is not cracked?  Does your engine have a small internal leak-- aka blown head gasket. Purchasing a cooling system pressure tester may be a good investment, or if you can get a loan on one, perhaps all you'll need it for is a one time diagnostic.  I'm assuming now that all the coolant hoses are in place, that there are no serious leaks in the water pump or interior heater core.  If you find that  it's a big project just to get the radiator, the hoses, and related parts to hold water/coolant, you can still check the integrity of the engine's cooling system by blocking off the several engine outlets and pumping - pressurizing the engine's cooling system. Clearly, if you can get a check on that, and it;s all good, then it makes sense to go on to the next level of testing--- however, if you have a cracked block, there''s no sense in wasting time on the engine.. I have spent time and money on a used engine that I installed, that had a cracked block-- water jackets around the cylinders crack,simp because the last person to use the car,  poured water into the cooling system, during freezing weather, and the block cracked.. believe me, it happens with old cars the wind up in the wrong hands,  Finally, if, after pressurizing the engine you find that there are no leaks, it's time to move to the next step.  James

Hi,
Congratulations! Cool, that you work on your 69. I have a "blog" here on the forum where I document the work I do on my 68.

Regarding the engine. I had a connecting rod bearing spun two years ago. The reason was probably a lubrication problem.
The main problem with the 472 and 500 is the oiling system, which is great, but the 7&8  connecting rod journal and 8 crank journal get oil last. So that means that there can be some debris and restrictions accumulating over time. Those are never flushed, so it is just a matter of time.
I personally now would do the following:
1) Remove the distributor and install a special tool to drive the oil pump with an drill
2) check that you get at least 10psi oil pressure. That is the light in the instrument cluster goes out. Before and after the "flushing procedure" I outline here.
3) Unscrew the oil pressure sensor on the back of the engine and just make a huge mess with oil while using your drill to pump oil through the system. Make sure to at least turn the crank 4 times while you are doing this.
4) This way you can "flush" the oil gallery and make sure that the 7&8 connecting rods receive fresh clean oil.

Then just start it.

Good luck!

Keep it up, I'll read your post but only responds when necessary.

Best regards,
Nicolas

Quote from: DeVille68 on March 22, 2020, 04:34:21 PM
Hi,
Congratulations! Cool, that you work on your 69. I have a "blog" here on the forum where I document the work I do on my 68.

Regarding the engine. I had a connecting rod bearing spun two years ago. The reason was probably a lubrication problem.
The main problem with the 472 and 500 is the oiling system, which is great, but the 7&8  connecting rod journal and 8 crank journal get oil last. So that means that there can be some debris and restrictions accumulating over time. Those are never flushed, so it is just a matter of time.
I personally now would do the following:
1) Remove the distributor and install a special tool to drive the oil pump with an drill
2) check that you get at least 10psi oil pressure. That is the light in the instrument cluster goes out. Before and after the "flushing procedure" I outline here.
3) Unscrew the oil pressure sensor on the back of the engine and just make a huge mess with oil while using your drill to pump oil through the system. Make sure to at least turn the crank 4 times while you are doing this.
4) This way you can "flush" the oil gallery and make sure that the 7&8 connecting rods receive fresh clean oil.

Then just start it.

Good luck!

Keep it up, I'll read your post but only responds when necessary.

Best regards,
Nicolas

Hi Nicholas,

I recently visited your blog and found it an inspiration to maybe start my own blog... I am giving it some serious thought. So, who knows I may create one myself.  I want to thank you for the info regarding pre-cranking procedure. I would sure hate to throw a connecting rod bearing. I will do some research and obtain those tools to get that procedure done before starting the engine.

Thanks again!

Woodgrain Door Panel Insert Repair

I am creating this post to show everyone what I did to repair my woodgrain inserts. As a reminder to everyone on this post, when I purchased this vehicle, it had been left outside, with the top down, which would not have mattered if the top was up because the convertible top was nearly completely deteriorated... but I digress. Anyway, the following explains the steps I took to repair my woodgrain inserts.

Prior to starting this project, I did some on-line research and learned the original factory woodgrain was a "cherrywood" color. More research and I was able to find 3M Cherrywood vinyl wrap. I also learned that some of the wood grains run vertically and others run horizontally. A close inspection of what was left of my woodgrain inserts showed the woodgrain was horizontal. 

I am extremely satisfied with the results. I did this with regular tools, in my garage, working on it a little at a time. The photos show the results.

- After removing the door panels from the door I was able to access the screws on the inside of the panel. I removed the screws which allowed the woodgrain insert to separate from the door panel.
- I found the factory woodgrain material was attached to a metal plate. I separated the woodgrain plate that was riveted to the frame that surrounds the woodgrain.
- Using a dremel tool, I cut off the rivets that held the metal woodgrain plate to the frame.
- I then scraped and sanded..and scraped... the old woodgrain off of the metal plate.
- After getting the metal plate clean and smooth I attached the 3M vinyl wrap, ensuring the grain was horizontal. It is important to make sure the metal plate is clean and smooth because any imperfections would transfer through the vinyl wrap.
- The vinyl wrap required a heat gun to activate the glue backing. It also made the vinyl wrap more pliable and easier to work with.
-  I then set the newly wrapped metal plate back in its frame, and using epoxy, I reattached the frame to the woodgrain covered metal plate. I think I could have got away without the epoxy but I didn't want the wood grain to move around within the frame.
- I repeated this process with the other door panel, the rear panels and the dashboard.

I initially thought I was going to have to buy new wood grain inserts. You can imagine; the inserts would have all been in different condition, possibly not matching, and that depends on if I could even find them. This fix was a very good solution to my problem. The 3M vinyl wrap was about $30 and the roll was large en ought o cover all four panels and the dashboard with plenty left over.

The below photos show the results of some of the steps (I don't have step-by-step photos). Let me know what you think. Also feel free to critique or offer your own ideas as it may help someone else with this same problem.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
 
   

Door Panel Repair

This post is to show the steps I took to repair my door panels. First of all, the door panels are extremely difficult to find. I was able to find a set (by calling around on the phone). The owner told me the set was from a hard top, not a convertible. He said, "they should fit." I'm not sure how true that is... Any way, he wanted $700 each; Yep $1400 ( I paid $1500 for the whole car) for a pair of door panels, that may or may not fit, and the color was wrong, and they were not in good condition!

Anyway, my door panels were in pretty bad shape as they were out in the weather for who knows how long...? When I bought the car, the seller told me the car was in a garage for a while but they put it out in the yard because they needed more room inside the garage. He didn't tell me "how long" the car was outside. I saw the door panels were curled in the carpeted area but I naively thought that I could easily find replacements.

Little side note here: I bought this car because I wanted a convertible. Never owned one before. Also, I owned a 1970 coupe deville when I was High school and I loved that car. The engine was so smooth I would sometimes forget the thing was running. (man, if I could have that car now. I sold it because I could not afford the gas. Wait, I could not afford any gas at that point in my life.) Back to the side note; I did not do any research on 1969 parts availability, etc. I simply saw the car was available, the owner wanted $1500, I had $1500; I wanted the car and he took my money.

So, when I saw the door panels were curling at the bottom, I thought it would be an easy replacement. Boy was I worng. But, I did find a much more reasonable repair than the $1400 replacement option. This is what I came up with:

I bought chip board (two different thicknesses), that can be found at most upholstery supply shops, and a can of spray glue.

-The first thing I did was to remove the carpeting (opr what waas left of it) from the bottom of the door panel.
- I then flattened out the curling at the bottom (carpeted area) of the card board door panels. I did this by using a wet sponge/rag; I wet the card board little-by-little by pushing the sponge and rag onto the card board until it got moderately wet.
- When I was able to manipulate and bend the card board with my hand, I placed the wet cardboard between two flat boards and I clamped the boards together. After a couple of days, I removed the clamped boards and the card board panel was dry and flat.
- I then glued the thin chip board to the inside of the door panel, across the entire bottom of the door panel. This gave me a base to attach the thick board to (by the way, the thick board is the same thickness as the original door panel.
- I cut out any part of the original panel that was damaged. I replaced the damaged area with the thick chip board. I then attached another piece of thin chip board to the outside of the door panel. This sandwich ensured the thick chip board would remain in place.
- The lower panel is now ready for carpeting.

You will see from the photos that one of the panels was so bad I had to remove almost all of the original lower door panel. I was able to leave about three inches of the factory card board door panel.

The below photos show the work that I did. The panels are still a work in progress but you can at least see how I repaired the broken/deteriorating card board door panel.

If any one has additional information, please feel free to share and/or critique. Maybe someone has a better idea for those who may have a door panel problem.

Thanks for checking in on me and my progress.

Nice work,

I used epoxy on mine and clamped the board together. There is a post somewhere in my blog.

Regarding the oil system. You can make an adapter for the oil pressure sensor. This way you can keep track of the pressure and not make a huge mess at the back while flushing the oil galleries.
The thread is 1/4'' pipe thread.
Best regards,
Nicolas

Quote from: DeVille68 on March 23, 2020, 11:57:40 AM
Nice work,

I used epoxy on mine and clamped the board together. There is a post somewhere in my blog.

Regarding the oil system. You can make an adapter for the oil pressure sensor. This way you can keep track of the pressure and not make a huge mess at the back while flushing the oil galleries.
The thread is 1/4'' pipe thread.
Best regards,
Nicolas

Nicolas,

Excellent tip! I will use this adapter. I was imagining abig clean up job after the oil flush. Seems that has been solved. Thank you.

If fixing the door panels your way doesn't work you can use rubber walkway mats. Flat on one side ridges on the other side. Take some strips of sheet metal and epoxy them to the ridged side of the mats. One on the bottom and each end space 8 to 10 inches between them. The strips can be bent to match the curve at the top of the panel that will hold the contour of the mat in place. You can glue foam and then leather over the form. If you need the mats stiffer you can buy thin pressed cardboard. And a local printer can get it or tell you where to go.
Actually I guess you could use thicker pressed cardboard, formica or masonite to make the entire panel.
John

Wire Loom Fasteners

Hello CLC Friends,

Does any one know where I can find (or even if they are avaialble) the plastic loop fasteners that hold the wiring loom to the firewall and fender-well? I have spent a lot of time searching the internet with no luck. If these are no longer available, can anyone suggest a professional looking alternative?

The attached photo shows one of the many that have broken.

Thank you for your help/advice.

Those are called "Harness Strap".
Check out restoration spcialties
http://www.restorationspecialties.com/search.asp?keyword=harness+strap (http://www.restorationspecialties.com/search.asp?keyword=harness+strap)

Best regards,
Nicolas

You can also find similar plastic harness straps on Ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12-pcs-Buick-Cadillac-Chevy-battery-cable-wiring-harness-wire-straps-2-3-4-long/192295159421?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

I purchased these and they are pretty close to the originals. Note that they are available in various lengths.

Quote from: DeVille68 on March 25, 2020, 03:00:26 PM
Those are called "Harness Strap".
Check out restoration spcialties
http://www.restorationspecialties.com/search.asp?keyword=harness+strap (http://www.restorationspecialties.com/search.asp?keyword=harness+strap)

Best regards,
Nicolas

Thank you Nicolas. Once again, the CLC community comes through!

Quote from: MikeLawson on March 25, 2020, 05:20:06 PM
You can also find similar plastic harness straps on Ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12-pcs-Buick-Cadillac-Chevy-battery-cable-wiring-harness-wire-straps-2-3-4-long/192295159421?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

I purchased these and they are pretty close to the originals. Note that they are available in various lengths.

Thank you Mike! I would never have paid attention to the length. This forum is awesome. Guys like you and Nicolas are the reason for the forums success.

Spark Plug Inspection

Hello all,

Over the past couple of days I have been prepping the engine to try and get it started (still haven't installed my seats). As you guys know, I pulled the valve covers already (see previous post), I drained the oil and changed the oil filter. I also drained the coolant (probably less than a gallon drained out); I got new plugs, wires, cap and rotor, and a new coil which will be installed prior to the start up attempt. Just trying to eliminate the things that could prevent it from starting. So, I decided to pull the plugs and inspect each one, to see if I could get any indication of the condition of the engine.

The plug from cylinder #5 had some green residue on the  electrode (tip) and reddish oil looking substance on the base of the threads (See photo). This was the only plug with this residue. My first thought was: the green substance is a result of coolant in the cylinder.

So,  can anyone provide any insight as to what you think this might be? I'd like your thoughts on the green substance, the reddish substance, and any advice or information you can provide. If you need more information, please ask. I welcome your questions. I'm interested to learn from all of you, who I'm sure has much more experience than I have.

Thanks to everyone...

SO, I'll go first, since I sent you some advice about coolant leaks.  IF that plug is the worse of all of them, I'd say that you're in a good position to attempt to start the engine.  You've received advice regarding oil circulation, and the valve train looks to be in reasonable condition, and you indicated that the engine turns freely.  Since you have the plugs out,  consider putting a few tablespoons of Marvel oil down each cylinder, and  before you do some cranking I'd want to know about the condition of the fuel in the tank. Can you pump out the tank?  What is the condition of the fuel in there. If you want to skip this tedious check and lengthy fix, I suggest you get a small fuel tank with fresh gas. Once you start cranking the starter, all of the accumulated junk at the bottom of the tank will go to you carburetor.  Ugh!  With fresh fuel in an auxillary tank and with the plugs out, I'd crank-- you're coating the combustion chambers, your checking the carb for fuel by pumping and
engaging the traffic pump... if you're fortunate, you'll see squirts of gas.  You can also be checking for ignition spark while you're cranking.  Needless to say, be careful.  If you've fuel squirting, and strong ignition spark, you're in a good position to CAREFULLY start the engine,  (NEVER RACE A COLD MOTOR)  James

Quote from: James Landi on March 26, 2020, 09:47:52 AM
SO, I'll go first, since I sent you some advice about coolant leaks.  IF that plug is the worse of all of them, I'd say that you're in a good position to attempt to start the engine.  You've received advice regarding oil circulation, and the valve train looks to be in reasonable condition, and you indicated that the engine turns freely.  Since you have the plugs out,  consider putting a few tablespoons of Marvel oil down each cylinder, and  before you do some cranking I'd want to know about the condition of the fuel in the tank. Can you pump out the tank?  What is the condition of the fuel in there. If you want to skip this tedious check and lengthy fix, I suggest you get a small fuel tank with fresh gas. Once you start cranking the starter, all of the accumulated junk at the bottom of the tank will go to you carburetor.  Ugh!  With fresh fuel in an auxiliary tank and with the plugs out, I'd crank-- you're coating the combustion chambers, your checking the carb for fuel by pumping and
engaging the traffic pump... if you're fortunate, you'll see squirts of gas.  You can also be checking for ignition spark while you're cranking.  Needless to say, be careful.  If you've fuel squirting, and strong ignition spark, you're in a good position to CAREFULLY start the engine,  (NEVER RACE A COLD MOTOR)  James

Hi James,

Thanks for the info! I bought fogging oil for the cylinders. But since I've been researching, most recommendations say use Marvel Mystery oil, so I will use that.

Regarding the fuel tank, the very first thing I did was replace the tank. After parking it in my garage there was a strong odor of rotten gas. I pulled the tank out and saw it had a couple of holes in it. So It has a new tank, new sending unit and new fuel hoses. Then about a year after I replaced the tank, I cleared the fuel lines. I did this by disconnecting the fuel lines at the tank and the fuel pump, I then blew compressed air from the tank towards the front. When I did this I immediately could smell that rotten gas again, indicating some of the bad fuel was still in the fuel lines. Needless to say, when I attempt the start up, it will have fresh fuel.

That raises another question; Should I rebuild the carburetor before trying to start? With the known history of bad fuel, who knows the condition of the fuel in the carb? Or, is it unnecessary at this stage? Thanks for the feedback.   

 All great about the gas tank and lines--- Purely my thinking. Cranking may prime the carb, and see if the accelerator pump squirts fuel.  Then, even if it starts and runs poorly, which it likely will, you;ll be further along in your "awaking strategy." And you may be lucky,  I've owned twin engine gasoline powered boats that were not run for several years, and the carbs were fine--- in contrast, I've had several where the carbs were in horrible condition-- Usually, if the traffic pump squirts, that's a positive sign that it will start-- but it may not keep running.  But if it starts, and you can carefully keep it running without racing it, you can check so many potential issues.   James 

Steve:
Be aware that the carb body gaskets may be dried out. If so, they might leak, dropping gas on the intake. After starting, if it does, be sure to check that the carb isn't leaking. If it does, shut it off. Do not try to restart. The gaskets will swell from the fresh gas. Check the carb body screws, after a short time, if they need tightening, do so. Then start again. Watch for any leaks. If lucky,  the gaskets will swell up and stop leaking.
Keep an extinguisher nearby, for safety.
Good luck.
Ciao,
Mario Caimotto

Mario makes an important point-- safety first.  Regarding the green residue on your plug, the consensus is that the cylinder was running hot-- may be a concern once you get the engine running.   All of these anxieties may disappear once you get it running.  These were durable engines, and if yours was not abused, it should start, and then you can diagnosis the next challenges.  In the meantime, we look forward to your observations and progress.   James

Quote from: James Landi on March 27, 2020, 07:45:25 AM
Mario makes an important point-- safety first.  Regarding the green residue on your plug, the consensus is that the cylinder was running hot-- may be a concern once you get the engine running.   All of these anxieties may disappear once you get it running.  These were durable engines, and if yours was not abused, it should start, and then you can diagnosis the next challenges.  In the meantime, we look forward to your observations and progress.   James

Thanks James, your feedback is very helpful and appreciated. All of this information gives me confidence as I work through this phase. I will certainly provide updates on this forum thread.

Quote from: mario on March 26, 2020, 10:33:31 PM
Steve:
Be aware that the carb body gaskets may be dried out. If so, they might leak, dropping gas on the intake. After starting, if it does, be sure to check that the carb isn't leaking. If it does, shut it off. Do not try to restart. The gaskets will swell from the fresh gas. Check the carb body screws, after a short time, if they need tightening, do so. Then start again. Watch for any leaks. If lucky,  the gaskets will swell up and stop leaking.
Keep an extinguisher nearby, for safety.
Good luck.
Ciao,
Mario Caimotto

Good points Mario. Especially the reminder to have an extinguisher nearby! Thank you

Another point Steve, since you have the plugs out, you might wish to perform a compression test.  You'll not get a great reading because the engine has not been running for years, and the piston rings may be partially stuck, but with the Marvel oil in, compressing the oil and checking each cylinder may be an efficient way of aiding in the awaking process,before attempting to start it, and in doing so  you'll have a bench mark on the state of the engine.  Again, my experience with slumbering and cold marine engines is that a compression test usually yields about 1/2 the specification--- so if you do this, don't expect 180 psi and certainly don't be discouraged if you get about half that.  If you do find out that a cylinder is not yielding anything, check for a hung valve and a bent push rod--- . You also might consider hitting your rockers and valve stems with the fogging oil you have--   James

James   I didn't see this mentioned but you think he might turn the engine over by hand just to make sure nothing's hanging up?

Quote from: spolij on March 27, 2020, 02:52:06 PM
James   I didn't see this mentioned but you think he might turn the engine over by hand just to make sure nothing's hanging up?

Spolij,

I hand cranked, the engine turns freely, thankfully.

Quote from: James Landi on March 27, 2020, 01:25:53 PM
Another point Steve, since you have the plugs out, you might wish to perform a compression test.  You'll not get a great reading because the engine has not been running for years, and the piston rings may be partially stuck, but with the Marvel oil in, compressing the oil and checking each cylinder may be an efficient way of aiding in the awaking process,before attempting to start it, and in doing so  you'll have a bench mark on the state of the engine.  Again, my experience with slumbering and cold marine engines is that a compression test usually yields about 1/2 the specification--- so if you do this, don't expect 180 psi and certainly don't be discouraged if you get about half that.  If you do find out that a cylinder is not yielding anything, check for a hung valve and a bent push rod--- . You also might consider hitting your rockers and valve stems with the fogging oil you have--   James

Sounds good, James. I thought about compression testing after it got started. But your suggestion makes sense. I will do that. I did not think about fogging oil the rockers and valve stems. Another suggestion that I appreciate and will use.

Quote from: James Landi on March 27, 2020, 01:25:53 PM
Another point Steve, since you have the plugs out, you might wish to perform a compression test.  You'll not get a great reading because the engine has not been running for years, and the piston rings may be partially stuck, but with the Marvel oil in, compressing the oil and checking each cylinder may be an efficient way of aiding in the awaking process,before attempting to start it, and in doing so  you'll have a bench mark on the state of the engine.  Again, my experience with slumbering and cold marine engines is that a compression test usually yields about 1/2 the specification--- so if you do this, don't expect 180 psi and certainly don't be discouraged if you get about half that.  If you do find out that a cylinder is not yielding anything, check for a hung valve and a bent push rod--- . You also might consider hitting your rockers and valve stems with the fogging oil you have--   James

James, if he does a comp test with oil in the cylinders (wet test) it will give a false reading. If it reads low, he will not know if is bad rings or bad valves. You should always do a dry test first, then compare the results to a wet test. If the comp goes up after a wet test, that shows that the rings are worn or worse yet, broken. If the comp stays the same (low or very low) then that would point to a bad valve, burnt, bent or cracked seat.
The oil in the cylinders at first startup will burn off while the coolant getting up to temp will free up any stuck rings and or valves.
After things cool down and his smile goes away, next day, then he should do a dry test, ect, ect, etc.
Good luck and be safe. I envy you because this is the part of the journey that I always enjoyed.
Ciao,
Mario Caimotto

Hello Steve,

I like the '69 convertible models.  I had one decades ago.  Keep up the good work.  I think it is a great car.

If I am following this  thread correctly, your motor has not run in at least two years, there was an abnormal color to the oil, the amount of coolant drained indicated a significant loss of coolant somewhere along the line, a sparkplug has what looks to be coolant residue on the ground electrode, and you have "hand cranked" the engine, which I assume means that you were able to turn the engine via the starter.

If I have the above points correct, I suggest, like others, that you do a compression test.  First do a dry test as Mario mentions.  All sparkplugs should be removed, and the throttle should be blocked open.  You should have a strong battery.  Crank the engine until each cylinder's reading reaches its maximum.  This should be about 3 to 6 pulses on your engine.

As James indicated, your engine should read in the 180 PSI range per cylinder.  It would not be unusual for any cylinder to vary by ten percent from the highest reading cylinder.  Any more variation, and you should proceed to a wet test by squirting a little oil into each cylinder and repeating the test.

As Mario indicated, any observed increase in PSI would point to a cylinder with a ring or bore wear problem.  No significant change in PSI would point to a head gasket or valve problem.  If either is suspected, a leak-down test will determine if the problem is rings, cylinder wear, a blown head gasket, or intake or exhaust valve.

Given the signs you observed with the current state of your engine, I would suggest you approach the diagnosis of its condition as meticulously as you did with your interior project.  A compression test gauge is relatively inexpensive at most auto parts stores or via Amazon.  Google compression test, and read several articles, so you have a good understanding of what is happening.  It is much better to discover a problem before you "fire" the engine, and make the necessary repairs.

You can read about my valve train refresh here:

http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=133691.100

Scroll/page down to reply 105.

Respectfully submitted

Christopher Winter

Quote from: savemy67 on March 27, 2020, 09:39:18 PM
Hello Steve,

I like the '69 convertible models.  I had one decades ago.  Keep up the good work.  I think it is a great car.

If I am following this  thread correctly, your motor has not run in at least two years, there was an abnormal color to the oil, the amount of coolant drained indicated a significant loss of coolant somewhere along the line, a sparkplug has what looks to be coolant residue on the ground electrode, and you have "hand cranked" the engine, which I assume means that you were able to turn the engine via the starter.

If I have the above points correct, I suggest, like others, that you do a compression test.  First do a dry test as Mario mentions.  All sparkplugs should be removed, and the throttle should be blocked open.  You should have a strong battery.  Crank the engine until each cylinder's reading reaches its maximum.  This should be about 3 to 6 pulses on your engine.

As James indicated, your engine should read in the 180 PSI range per cylinder.  It would not be unusual for any cylinder to vary by ten percent from the highest reading cylinder.  Any more variation, and you should proceed to a wet test by squirting a little oil into each cylinder and repeating the test.

As Mario indicated, any observed increase in PSI would point to a cylinder with a ring or bore wear problem.  No significant change in PSI would point to a head gasket or valve problem.  If either is suspected, a leak-down test will determine if the problem is rings, cylinder wear, a blown head gasket, or intake or exhaust valve.

Given the signs you observed with the current state of your engine, I would suggest you approach the diagnosis of its condition as meticulously as you did with your interior project.  A compression test gauge is relatively inexpensive at most auto parts stores or via Amazon.  Google compression test, and read several articles, so you have a good understanding of what is happening.  It is much better to discover a problem before you "fire" the engine, and make the necessary repairs.

You can read about my valve train refresh here:

http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=133691.100

Scroll/page down to reply 105.

Respectfully submitted

Christopher Winter

Chris,

Thank you for the excellent information. I hand cranked the engine by turning the crankcase, I didn't use the starter. Which was good news for me, indicating the engine is not frozen. I do have a compression test gauge which I will be using. I also took a look at your valve train refresh on your thread. I appreciate the advice from you, James, and Mario, as it lets me know I am not completely alone in getting my project moving. So, I truly thank you and I am soaking up all the information you guys are giving me.

Steve

Good morning Steve. Mario, and Christopher,

The reason why I am suggesting that Steve perform his compression test with residue Marvel oil in the cylinders is simply stated as follows:  His engine has not been run for many years, there is good reason to believe that there's no lubrication on and around the piston rings, and by compressing the oil, Steve can accomplish the kind of pre-lubrication prior to starting the engine that may save the engine from internal damage (viz: struck rings scuffing the cylinder walls).  I am aware of the fact that molybdenum rings made a huge difference in the durability of these engines, yet I remain convinced, based on prior experience that Steve's engine will not yield great compression results, on a "dry test," right now,  simply because it has been asleep for so many years, and damp air tends to rust critical parts.  As I mentioned in a prior post, my experience with sleeping engines is that when tested cold, and not having been run for years that I can count on compression being one half the specifications.  Once started and run for awhile and having heated up, the compression returns, and for the most part, in full.   Thanks for reading, and I certainly look forward to additional exchanges.  James 

Still Prepping Engine Before Starting

While going through my checks before attempting to "wake-up" my engine, I decided to check the filter at the carburetor. I previously replaced the fuel tank, sending unit, rubber fuel hoses at the tank and the fuel pump. I also blew compressed air through the fuel lines. I then thought that maybe I should check the fuel filter at the carburetor. I was surprised to see this filter (See pics). Can anyone tell me if this looks normal? I checked the shop manual and saw that it is referred to as a "fuel strainer."

Also, I think there is a filter in the fuel pump. Can anyone confirm this for me?

Thanks everyone!

Yes-- the purpose of the mesh screen is to ensure that the carburetor float valve, comprised of small brass plunger  with a rubber tip, is not fouled with a piece of debris that could cause the tip to be "hung up" between the tip and the valve seat, thus creating a dangerous fuel flooding situation. be extra careful when you reinstall this, as the "body" of the fitting at the carburetor is only aluminum, and is easily stripped if the brass fittings are improperly aligned.
Keep the questions and pictures coming-- we're all anxiously awaiting the "wake up!"     Happy day, James

Yes, this is a original type mesh filter. On my carb it is missing. There are some bronze sinter filter available (on ebay). I just left it out and re-installed the primitive screen but installed a K&N inline fuel filter. Never had an issue.
Yes, as James said, try to use a line wrench in order to not damage the fitting.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=line+wrench (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=line+wrench)

Best regards,
Nicolas

Quote from: DeVille68 on April 03, 2020, 02:52:46 PM
Yes, this is a original type mesh filter. On my carb it is missing. There are some bronze sinter filter available (on ebay). I just left it out and re-installed the primitive screen but installed a K&N inline fuel filter. Never had an issue.
Yes, as James said, try to use a line wrench in order to not damage the fitting.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=line+wrench (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=line+wrench)

Best regards,
Nicolas

Thanks Nicolas, This is an indicator that the carb has never been rebuilt. It certainly looks as if no one has ever touched it.

Steve,

Crank the engine and get some gas in the carburetor... then check to see if the accelerator pump is squirting fuel down to the intake manifold.  If so, the carburetor will give you sufficient utility to get the engine running.  There are likely many other challenges that will require your immediate attention, if you get it running, even if it's running rough.   Just a suggestion,   James

Engine Start-up Update!

So, to update everyone. I was able to get the engine to start, but it wouldn't stay running. We were able to keep it running as long as fuel was in the carburetor bowl. We eliminated a fuel pump problem, as fuel is getting to the carburetorfrom the pump. Likely going to be a problem with the carburetor. I will be rebuilding the carburetor over the next week or two.

Prior to trying to start the engine, we did a compression test. Here are the results (wet test due to fogging oil being in cylinders):

Cylinder 1 - 155
Cylinder 2 - 170
Cylinder 3 - 130
Cylinder 4 - 150
Cylinder 5 - 110
Cylinder 6 - 135
Cylinder 7 - 165
Cylinder 8 - 125

Seems like the results are all over the place. My plan is to get the carb rebuilt, get it running right and then do another series of compression tests. Any feed back is appreciated! Progress is being made...

That's so terrific!  The relatively low compression is likely to clear up as you warm up the engine and compression rings and valves re seat.  This is great news!  Did the engine feel and sound as if it were running relatively smoothly-- viz: all cylinders firing?  How long were you able to keep it running?  Again, don't fret about the compression readings.  Did you have the cooling system full?    DO you have an air compressor? --compressed air is necessary to power out collected gasoline separation particulate that clogs the low speed idle channels.  "Gum Out" and solvents with out compressed air are generally not sufficient.  Again-- congratulations!  Keep us all posted.   Best news of my day!  James

Quote from: James Landi on April 04, 2020, 10:32:41 PM
That's so terrific!  The relatively low compression is likely to clear up as you warm up the engine and compression rings and valves re seat.  This is great news!  Did the engine feel and sound as if it were running relatively smoothly-- viz: all cylinders firing?  How long were you able to keep it running?  Again, don't fret about the compression readings.  Did you have the cooling system full?    DO you have an air compressor? --compressed air is necessary to power out collected gasoline separation particulate that clogs the low speed idle channels.  "Gum Out" and solvents with out compressed air are generally not sufficient.  Again-- congratulations!  Keep us all posted.   Best news of my day!  James

Hey James,
Yes, the engine was running relatively smoothly. We kept having to fill the carb float bowl and the engine would run for a few seconds before dying (likely the float bowl empty of fuel). We would refill the float bowl and it wold run again for a few seconds. I did have the cooling system full. Before attempting to start I drained the radiator and filled with antifreeze; drained the oil and replaced the filter; I replaced all the plugs and wires, new distributor cap and coil. The points looked good so didn't replace them. And yes, I do have compressed air. I will use it as you suggest.

Yeah I am really excited. It made my day to hear it run! Seemed like the more it ran the better/smoother the engine got. After several times we decided the card needs rebuilding so called it quits for the day.

I also had to replace the starter as it was not engaging fully when we initially tried starting. A quick trip to the parts store and after install the engine began to come to life. Good day today... huge progress for my resto project!! I also learned the AIR pump was seized so gotta order another.

Thanks for everything and I will continue to update. 

Terrific-- your engine is performing as I had hoped.  As you start and run it, it will continue to smooth out.  Not sure what you meant about "filling the bowl."  Are you referencing the fuel bowl that is associated with the fuel pump?   Or are you literally stating that the carburetor was not accepting gasoline, and you were pouring a small amount down the carburetor and into the intake to get it to run for a few seconds?  I mention this because one minor test regarding your carburetor has you taking off the air filter, and using a flash light, pumping the accelerator. In normal operation, you see gasoline squirting out of two small spouts at as you pump the accelerator.  If that's not happening, the carburetor is likely not helping you to keep the engine running at all. Sometimes after years of not running, the floats will stick in the "up position" (think of a toilet bowl float-- same concept) and no fuel will be accepted.  Your old starter likely needs some "Blaster" on the gear assembly and a bit
of persuasion to get that gear to engage... likely rust is holding it back.  Again, you;ve come a very long way.  In the next stage, getting the engine to run without feeding it "intravenously" will provide you with an opportunity to make additional tests regarding its health--- and finally, from personal experience and from all that you;ve shown in pictures, it's a testament to the quality of Cadillac engineering that the engine works. Most recently, we've CLC members whose engines were so stuck that they were rendered useless.  There are many others who had to have their engines rebuilt for lack of adequate compression, with stuck rings, scored cylinder walls and bent valve stems.   While it's hard to tell just how long your engine has been idle, judging from the condition of the interior, it was many years-- truly incredible!   Happy day,   James

Nice! As James said, probably a stuck float.
I got my rebuild kit from http://www.daytonaparts.com/ (http://www.daytonaparts.com/). There is also https://quadrajetparts.com/ (https://quadrajetparts.com/).
I have good experiences with both of them. The needle and accelerator pump that Daytona sells are especially nice.

If you like reading a book first, I can highly recommend the book Rochester Carburetors, Revised Edition, 1987, Doug Roe
and
How to Rebuild & Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carburetors, 2006, Cliff Ruggles

Where the first is more technical and explains the quadrajet in detail, the later is more about modifying. Actually, I find you need both. For a rebuild the first one might be sufficient.

Best regards,
Nicolas

Quote from: James Landi on April 05, 2020, 08:24:44 AM
Terrific-- your engine is performing as I had hoped.  As you start and run it, it will continue to smooth out.  Not sure what you meant about "filling the bowl."  Are you referencing the fuel bowl that is associated with the fuel pump?   Or are you literally stating that the carburetor was not accepting gasoline, and you were pouring a small amount down the carburetor and into the intake to get it to run for a few seconds?  I mention this because one minor test regarding your carburetor has you taking off the air filter, and using a flash light, pumping the accelerator. In normal operation, you see gasoline squirting out of two small spouts at as you pump the accelerator.  If that's not happening, the carburetor is likely not helping you to keep the engine running at all. Sometimes after years of not running, the floats will stick in the "up position" (think of a toilet bowl float-- same concept) and no fuel will be accepted.  Your old starter likely needs some "Blaster" on the gear assembly and a bit
of persuasion to get that gear to engage... likely rust is holding it back.  Again, you;ve come a very long way.  In the next stage, getting the engine to run without feeding it "intravenously" will provide you with an opportunity to make additional tests regarding its health--- and finally, from personal experience and from all that you;ve shown in pictures, it's a testament to the quality of Cadillac engineering that the engine works. Most recently, we've CLC members whose engines were so stuck that they were rendered useless.  There are many others who had to have their engines rebuilt for lack of adequate compression, with stuck rings, scored cylinder walls and bent valve stems.   While it's hard to tell just how long your engine has been idle, judging from the condition of the interior, it was many years-- truly incredible!   Happy day,   James

Hey James,

Yeah. I was talking about the float bowl. We were pouring fuel into the carburetor to get the engine running. We tried tapping on the side of the carburetor to get the float unstuck. We also poured fuel into the carburetor, and started the engine numerous times, hoping fresh fuel would work its way through but no luck. So, I will rebuild the carb.

More to follow.

Quote from: DeVille68 on April 05, 2020, 11:48:21 AM
Nice! As James said, probably a stuck float.
I got my rebuild kit from http://www.daytonaparts.com/ (http://www.daytonaparts.com/). There is also https://quadrajetparts.com/ (https://quadrajetparts.com/).
I have good experiences with both of them. The needle and accelerator pump that Daytona sells are especially nice.

If you like reading a book first, I can highly recommend the book Rochester Carburetors, Revised Edition, 1987, Doug Roe
and
How to Rebuild & Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carburetors, 2006, Cliff Ruggles

Where the first is more technical and explains the quadrajet in detail, the later is more about modifying. Actually, I find you need both. For a rebuild the first one might be sufficient.

Best regards,
Nicolas

Hey Nicolas,

Thanks for the great information. I ordered a rebuild kit from the local auto parts store. I think I will go with your recommendation instead. Thanks again. I will keep updating.

Help me Identify this Engine Component/Switch

Can someone help me with this switch. You probably already can tell from the attached photo, but to help orient you; the switch is located at the front, top of the engine, between the thermostat and distributor, under the A/C compressor (the compressor was removed prior to photo).

I checked the shop manual and could not determine what it is. I'm guessing a water temp. switch..? I know the oil pressure switch is at the rear of the engine and there is an engine temp. switch on the right side, front of engine, near the #2 cylinder. However, I am unable to confirm this switch (see photo)

1) Can someone please help me with this and tell me what it is?
2) Since it is now accessible, should I replace it before putting the compressor back on? It looks like the original one. Not sure if this is an item that tends to fail over time.

Looking for Feedback on this Issue

Okay Gents (and possibly ladies),

Can you all take a look at this photo and tell me what I have to worry about, if anything.  I removed the carburetor and found the gasket was deteriorated but I was able to remove most of the gasket intact. However, there is a channel in the intake manifold that was caked with gasket material. As I began to scrape away the gasket that stuck to the manifold, I found this channel packed with gasket material. I partially dug out some material before taking the photo.

1) Can anyone tell me if this channel needs to be free of any gasket material?
2) Are there any ports/passages that needs to be free of debris? If so, suggestions on how to clear the passage(s) of debris?
3) Is this a fuel channel or air channel?
4) What purpose does it serve?

Thanks for any/all responses

G'day Steve,

Firstly, the fitting near the Thermostat housing is the Sensor for the Coolant Temperature.

The passage in front of the Primary Ports in the Intake Manifold is part of the Exhaust Crossover that transfers exhaust gases from one cylinder head to the other, under the Carby, and is there to aid in engine warm-up.

In most cases, that passage will be blocked up, and if you need to, it can be cleaned out, and it is also another reason for the stainless steel plate that is sandwiched between the Carby and the Manifold, including a heat-proof gasket with the matching passage to isolate the passage from the carby.   Nothing to do with Anti Pollution controls, but driving when cold.

Bruce. >:D

Bruce Isn't there a hole or two in that channel, under all that mess?

There are two holes.   One at each end of the channel, and they go straight down and enter the exhaust cross-over/under chamber.   The reason there is so much crud in the channel is from years of the gases entering and departing the channel, and eventually carrying with the gas, the contaminants that is usually involved with burnt fuel.

I have never bothered to clean out that passage, as I don't need the early preheating of the carby, as my cars always start up in the comfort of my garage.  In fact, with my cars, I usually completely block off the exhaust crossovers when rebuilding my engines.

Bruce. >:D

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on April 07, 2020, 04:05:07 AM
G'day Steve,

Firstly, the fitting near the Thermostat housing is the Sensor for the Coolant Temperature.

The passage in front of the Primary Ports in the Intake Manifold is part of the Exhaust Crossover that transfers exhaust gases from one cylinder head to the other, under the Carby, and is there to aid in engine warm-up.

In most cases, that passage will be blocked up, and if you need to, it can be cleaned out, and it is also another reason for the stainless steel plate that is sandwiched between the Carby and the Manifold, including a heat-proof gasket with the matching passage to isolate the passage from the carby.   Nothing to do with Anti Pollution controls, but driving when cold.

Bruce. >:D

Hey Bruce,

Thanks for the info. I cleaned out the holes...they were plugged. But, living in California, I likely don't really need the ports cleaned out... based on what your saying. I appreciate the info though.

Now that you will be having it working again as it was designed, it is most important that you use the correct gaskets, in their correct order, otherwise you will end up with a distorted carby base, and leaking exhaust gas into the engine bay.

Bruce. >:D

Steve,

As you likely know, Bruce is clearly an expert on  Cadillacs... Apparently, that under "the Carby"  exhaust cross-over had a limited service life, as my  experience and few data points reveal the same issue of solidly blocked passages.  There's a good deal of discussion on this forum about  gasoline vapor lock, and I can recall as a far more adventurous young man, taking the top section of a 56 Cadillac  carburetor apart on a hot engine and discovering that the gas was boiling.   From then on, I wondered about the efficacy of those heat induction passages.   I came to the conclusion,and I emphasize this is only my opinion, that the design put the emphasis on quick warm ups and frequent short, in town trips. Avoiding Vapor lock and generally hard starting in hot weather are issues that Bruce is helping you avoid.         Happy day,   James

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on April 08, 2020, 03:49:26 AM
Now that you will be having it working again as it was designed, it is most important that you use the correct gaskets, in their correct order, otherwise you will end up with a distorted carby base, and leaking exhaust gas into the engine bay.

Bruce. >:D

Hi Bruce,

You mentioned a heat proof gasket and the order of gaskets. Is the heat proof gasket included in the rebuild kit and is there something that distinguishes the heat proof gasket from others? Also, is the correct order (from manifold); gasket, stainless steel plate, and then carburetor?

Steve,

The heat-proof Gasket is virtually the same material as an Exhaust Gasket, as it had to contain the hot, acidic gases that come from burnt fuel.   Plus, is only used for a short number of years.

From recollection, and I haven't purchased a Gasket set for a VERY long time, the special Gasket is a separate item and ere is a pair from Cliffs High Performance  https://cliffshighperformance.com/Quadrajet-rebuild-kits-and-quadrajet-parts/quadrajet-stainless-steel-heat-shield-with-gasket
which has the Stainless steel Shim as well.

From what I remember, the Heat-proof one goes on first, then the Stainless Steel shim, then the normal base gasket.

Without the Stainless steel Shim, the upper sealing gasket will just get burnt away.

Bruce. >:D

According to my 68 Shop Manual there is only the gasket and then the metal shim.
But I guess that an additional insulation won't hurt..

Best regards,
Nicolas

(correct, I had to ordering of the gasket wrong)

Steve,

I just completed rebuilding the carburetor on my '67 and it is virtually the same as yours. The base gasket is particular to 1967-1969 Cadillacs only. The high temp.composition gasket you want is FELPRO 60010 which you can get from Rock Auto for a little over $3.00. The stainless steel heat shield/ gasket can be obtained from Ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-Steel-Metal-Baffle-Plate-Rochester-Quadrajet-Carburetor-67-69-Cadillac/273376531825?hash=item3fa682d571:g:md4AAOSwcxhbhvMD

I purchased the Chevy version of the steel gasket by mistake and boy did I ever have problems, major vacuum leaks. I used a Felpro gasket below and above the steel heat shield and it works just fine.

Quote from: MikeLawson on April 11, 2020, 01:51:36 PM
Steve,

I just completed rebuilding the carburetor on my '67 and it is virtually the same as yours. The base gasket is particular to 1967-1969 Cadillacs only. The high temp.composition gasket you want is FELPRO 60010 which you can get from Rock Auto for a little over $3.00. The stainless steel heat shield/ gasket can be obtained from Ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-Steel-Metal-Baffle-Plate-Rochester-Quadrajet-Carburetor-67-69-Cadillac/273376531825?hash=item3fa682d571:g:md4AAOSwcxhbhvMD

I purchased the Chevy version of the steel gasket by mistake and boy did I ever have problems, major vacuum leaks. I used a Felpro gasket below and above the steel heat shield and it works just fine.

Mike,

Can I reuse the old steel gasket or must I replace it?

Quote from: DeVille68 on April 11, 2020, 01:04:02 PM
According to my 68 Shop Manual there is only the metal shim and then the gasket.
But I guess that an additional insulation won't hurt..

Best regards,
Nicolas

Hi Nicolas,

Thanks. When I removed the carburetor, there was the gasket on the manifold, then the steel shield, and then the carburetor. There was no gasket between the carburetor and the steel shield, like your manual indicates. But it seems like there is conflicting information in the forum here.

Quote from: sturner50502 on April 11, 2020, 02:30:19 PM
Hi Nicolas,

Thanks. When I removed the carburetor, there was the gasket on the manifold, then the steel shield, and then the carburetor. There was no gasket between the carburetor and the steel shield, like your manual indicates. But it seems like there is conflicting information in the forum here.

Sorry, yes this is correct. First the gasket then the shim. However, I guess another gasket between shim and carburetor does not hurt. I however, removed the second gasket and have yet not discovered any problem.

Best regards,
Nicolas

Steve,

If your steel gasket is in good condition you can probably reuse it. If it is kinked, pitted or otherwise damaged. replace it. The 1967 shop manual does show the composition gasket installed directly on the manifold followed by the steel gasket, no second gasket. I used another composition gasket on top of the steel one because I ended up reusing my original steel gasket. Because there were slight imperfections in both the steel gasket and carburetor base surfaces, I thought it would be wise to use the second gasket to eliminate the possibility of any vacuum leaks.

I take back all of what I said, but actually, only a little bit.

Yes, the correct factory method is to not have a paper gasket between the stainless steel shim and the Carby base, but as I have always been working with "old" and used stuff, I make it a point of including the extra gasket for a better seal between the carb and the shim.

A bit like using a Gasket between the Exhaust Manifolds and the Cylinder Heads.   When these engines come from the factory, there is no gasket, BUT, everything is perfectly machined, and the mating is also perfect.   Many miles later, not so perfect and sealing.

Bruce. >:D

PS.  I have always re-used the Shim Gaskets, as if I wanted one, it would have to come from USA.   And more waiting, not to mention the expense.

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on April 11, 2020, 08:33:09 PM
I take back all of what I said, but actually, only a little bit.

Yes, the correct factory method is to not have a paper gasket between the stainless steel shim and the Carby base, but as I have always been working with "old" and used stuff, I make it a point of including the extra gasket for a better seal between the carb and the shim.

A bit like using a Gasket between the Exhaust Manifolds and the Cylinder Heads.   When these engines come from the factory, there is no gasket, BUT, everything is perfectly machined, and the mating is also perfect.   Many miles later, not so perfect and sealing.

Bruce. >:D

PS.  I have always re-used the Shim Gaskets, as if I wanted one, it would have to come from USA.   And more waiting, not to mention the expense.

Bruce,

Thank you for your information. I think its important to follow up (for others who may be paying attention) and share what I learned. As Bruce says, after many miles, the carburetor and intake manifold can warp slightly. Placing a second gasket between the heat shield and carburetor will help to prevent the possibility of leaks, etc. So, I will be using two gaskets on my reinstall.

I also wanted to share a photo of the condition of my carburetor. The float bowl was filled with crud... to the point where I could barely see the primary jets. I was able to clean the carburetor using chem-dip and I blew out all the ports. After finding the carb in this condition, I realized why the engine would not stay running.

Steve,

That Carby internals looks like it has similar crud to what was in the carby on my boat engine, and it was rock hard to remove, but eventually got it cleaned out.   The fuel tank was a lot worse.   Had to cut that open and re-galvanise it.

The stuff comes from petrol going bad, as it sits for years without use.

Bruce. >:D

Steve,
Want to amplify on Bruce's point.  Your idle passages in your carburetor are hidden on the fuel bowls, and as he said, the fuel separation leaves a brown crud that blocks those very necessary passages.  You likely have already done so, but just in case you have not, unscrew the idle jets and shoot compressed air through those holes.   Liquid cleaning and even "GumOut" under pressure is not sufficient to break that crud loose, and if those passage remain closed, you'll experience a world of pain.    Happy day,
James

Quote from: James Landi on April 14, 2020, 08:51:53 AM
Steve,
Want to amplify on Bruce's point.  Your idle passages in your carburetor are hidden on the fuel bowls, and as he said, the fuel separation leaves a brown crud that blocks those very necessary passages.  You likely have already done so, but just in case you have not, unscrew the idle jets and shoot compressed air through those holes.   Liquid cleaning and even "GumOut" under pressure is not sufficient to break that crud loose, and if those passage remain closed, you'll experience a world of pain.    Happy day,
James

Thank you, James

Quote from: James Landi on April 14, 2020, 08:51:53 AM
Steve,
Want to amplify on Bruce's point.  Your idle passages in your carburetor are hidden on the fuel bowls, and as he said, the fuel separation leaves a brown crud that blocks those very necessary passages.  You likely have already done so, but just in case you have not, unscrew the idle jets and shoot compressed air through those holes.   Liquid cleaning and even "GumOut" under pressure is not sufficient to break that crud loose, and if those passage remain closed, you'll experience a world of pain.    Happy day,
James

Thank you, Bruce

Float Bowl Question

Hello Friends,

Can someone help me with a question about my carburetor rebuild. I want to know if the area that I circled in the photo requires a gasket ? When I disassembled it, I saw remnants of some material but I could not tell if it was debris or a gasket which was disintegrated. This item is located in the float bowl of the carburetor. I apologize that I don't know the proper names of these parts but the photos show the area with the tab inserted and also with the tab removed.

Also, can someone educate me regarding the purpose of the tab? But the main question is whether or not a gasket goes under the tab in the float bowl.

Hi,

This is the hot-idle compensator. On the top side of the quadrajet (air horn) you should see a small plunger with a spring. This is how it works: When the engine gets too hot and also the quadrajet gets too hot, too much fuel is pulled and the engine runs badly. To offset this there is a themo-spring with a tip and gasket blocking a air passage. If the temperature rises, then this thermo spring rises and frees up this air passage. The plunger and spring on the top side is just there to be able to manually force this thermo-spring to seat, that is to block the air passage. Because for tuning the idle you don't want to have extra air.

So you definitely need a gasket there otherwise you have additional air that is not properly metered with fuel.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Nicolas

Carburetor Rebuild Update

Thought I would update you all on the progress of my rebuild. I also learned that my smog pump was frozen so I purchased a new one. And since I removed the alternator (it was easier) to get to the smog pump. And since I was there... etc, etc. I decided to paint some of the brackets, pulleys, all the belts, removed the compressor and so on. Any way, I thought it would be fun to show photos of the  progress to this point.

The photos are 1) the condition of the engine the day I bought the car, 2) the engine today, 3) carburetor before rebuild, 4) carburetor after rebuild. 

Steve,

You're making great progress, and it all is looking so very positive.  May I suggest that you check out the vacuum advance on your distributor.  This is a relatively simple task-- an 1/8 tube long enough for you to connect to the vacuum advance and reach your mouth.  Simply start the test by blowing through the tube,and if you can, the vacuum advance is ruptured and must be replaced.  If you can't, then suck on the tube, and with the rotor cap off, you should be able to see the stator plate move slightly-- then all is fine.  I have owned many 70's Cadillac, but not a '69, so the following recommendation is subject to all the skepticism it deserves to garner.   As GM was introducing smog controls, on a number of model years, there exists a vacuum check valve that negates the vacuum advance until the car gets to a predetermined speed.  I found that my 70 and two 72 Cadillacs were much more responsive to the accelerator and idled better if i circumvented the vacuum check valve entirely.   Something to consider--  we all look forward to the day that you get your engine running again. Happy day, and be of good cheer, James

nice! How did your carb rebuild turn out?

Best regards,
Nicolas

Quote from: James Landi on April 23, 2020, 08:33:17 AM
Steve,

You're making great progress, and it all is looking so very positive.  May I suggest that you check out the vacuum advance on your distributor.  This is a relatively simple task-- an 1/8 tube long enough for you to connect to the vacuum advance and reach your mouth.  Simply start the test by blowing through the tube,and if you can, the vacuum advance is ruptured and must be replaced.  If you can't, then suck on the tube, and with the rotor cap off, you should be able to see the stator plate move slightly-- then all is fine.  I have owned many 70's Cadillac, but not a '69, so the following recommendation is subject to all the skepticism it deserves to garner.   As GM was introducing smog controls, on a number of model years, there exists a vacuum check valve that negates the vacuum advance until the car gets to a predetermined speed.  I found that my 70 and two 72 Cadillacs were much more responsive to the accelerator and idled better if i circumvented the vacuum check valve entirely.   Something to consider--  we all look forward to the day that you get your engine running again. Happy day, and be of good cheer, James

Hi James,

Thanks for the tip. I will check it out!

Quote from: DeVille68 on April 23, 2020, 03:45:12 PM
nice! How did your carb rebuild turn out?

Best regards,
Nicolas

Hi Nicolas,

The rebuild turned out pretty good.  I ordered my rebuild kit from quadrajetparts.com. Their kit was great with high-quality gaskets and replacement parts. I was able to clean up the carb really well before the rebuild. All ports and tubes were cleared as I was able to run thin wire throughout all of the areas.

I have not tried starting the engine yet (didn't have time to dedicate to getting it started and tuned) . I will update all when I  get it started.

Thanks for all your help and tips!

Update

I have had my car now for three years. You guys have been with me along the way. Answering my questions, giving me tips and suggestions etc. And finally, one day after my three year anniversary of owning the car, I was able to hear it running at idle for the first time.

Three years ago I pulled this car out of an auto yard. It was outdoors, with the top down, in a dirt lot. It was filthy. The seats were completely dry-rotted from sun exposure. They looked like they were in a fire. The engine so dirty it was hard to tell if all parts were there.

When I brought it home on the tow truck, my wife looked at me as if I was going nuts.
She asked, "Why'd you bring that here?"
Me: Cause its a car, dear. And cars go in the garage.
Her: Yeah. But what are you going to do with that?
Me: Drive it.
Her: I hope you didn't pay a lot for it.
Me: No. Only $1500
Her: $1500! That is about $1450 more than you should have.... Why'd you buy a car from the junkyard. You must be going nuts... (blah blah blah)
Me: Yes dear. I know but... (she walked away)

I can only guess that is a familiar scene to some of you.

I had the seats reupholstered and new carpeting, I refurbished the dashpad and instrument cluster, changed the fuel tank and fuel sending unit, new spark plugs and wires, new starter, new smog pump, new belts, new fuel pump, rebuilt carburetor and lots of tedious cleaning. You all have answered many questions I have posted about some of these things.

When the engine finally turned over and idled, it was very satisfying as it made all the hard work (to this point) worth it. While I still haven't drove it, I feel a sense of progress.

Thanks everyone for all your help. Im sure you will be getting many more questions from me. Happy New Year! Lets make 2021 a much better year!

Look for some updated photos in the near future!

Steve,
Great to hear about your achievements. I know the feeling. There are never too much old Cadillacs in the streets!

Steve,

A worthwhile and purposeful project-- you've come such a long way.  please do post some new pictures, and, perhaps, if you have the time, tell us what your scheduling prior to your first road test.  Keep pressing on... James

3:37, 3:41, 5:08 AM. Geez what time zone do you guys live in! lol
Steve I've had my 66 about 3 years also. Had trouble with the carb. and put a rebuild in. Ran much better but it still does not run great all the time. The fuel tank was cleaned, the fuel is new, lines are new, driving me nuts. But it's only running a little rough once in awhile.
I have an idea for a new type of carb but i don't have the funds for it.
Any way wives? They don't always appreciate the finer things in life.  ;D
Your right this site has a wealth of knowledge and people are more than willing to help.
What's next on you list? I'm getting ready to paint mine.

Quote from: spolij on January 02, 2021, 10:59:30 AM
3:37, 3:41, 5:08 AM. Geez what time zone do you guys live in! lol   

Ha ha.   Some of us can't sleep, and others are in the future. ;)

Bruce. >:D

 ;D  Great post (update) to start the new year!  Bet she'll be proud to ride in the car when finished and she'll brag to everyone that oohs and aahs over the car that her hubby restored it!