Need some help here I am working on a 72 cad Eld so many wires have been cut and by passed I put a new alternator on and now I can't get any fire out of the coil.
G'day Larry,
I have moved your question to a new heading on its' own as the old thread was simply that, old.
I take it that you don't have a Shop Manual.
Changing the Alternator shouldn't have caused your current problem, o can you describe just what you did?
Any pictures?
Bruce. >:D
You just can't go wrong buying a Cadillac Shop Manual for your car ---
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-CADILLAC-SHOP-MANUAL/192587883935?hash=item2cd721e59f:g:CyEAAOSwRqBbO5zZ
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-Cadillac-Shop-Manual/302779431961?hash=item467f0f7c19:g:X2wAAOSwCDZa~G5Q
Buy the Fisher Body Manual too ---
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-CHEVROLET-PONTIAC-OLDSMOBILE-CADILLAC-BUICK-BODY-SHOP-MANUAL-ORIGINAL-BOOK/132699831597?hash=item1ee586bd2d:g:PEcAAOSwLF1X40gw
I just replaced alternator and wire that goes to the plug on the top of the alternator the one runs across the top of the engine is a new wire and there was two other wires there that were cut coming from the bulkhead laying on the valve cover and then put a new coil on there ignition coil on that side of the motor I have the resistor wire and another wire that goes to the positive it was barely idling until I done that now I have no spark going to distributor checked all fuses are all good I had to order a manual won't be here for a week
There are 4 different alternators that will more or less bolt in there so lots of chances for someone to have swapped them at some point. 72 I think was the last year for the external regulator so the wiring for those would be a lot different than the 10si or 12si internal regulator or a 'single wire' conversion. The external regulator alternators had the small 2 wire plug sticking out the back with the pins flat side to flat side. The internal regulator had them sticking out the side and were narrow side to narrow side.
The reason alternators get tangled up with ignition is they both get a key on circuit. When people start doing swaps this common connection can end up back feeding the ignition so the engine doesn't turn off with the key. Instead of admitting they don't know what they are doing and getting help one way or another they come up with more hacks to try and work around the problem.
Oh boy I don't even know where to start now maybe that explains I bought a new battery 2 days later it was dead when I went to start the car
I don't know how to send a picture through this site it would probably help two more explain what I got I dunno when I turn the key on my ignition coil has 12 volts when I turn it off it goes to zero
And I only have one wire that goes across the valve cover to the Bulkhead from the alternator
Quote from: Stoverlarry on July 12, 2018, 06:27:51 AM
I don't know how to send a picture through this site it would probably help two more explain what I got
When you reply to a post, at the bottom of the typing box is the words "+ Attachments and other options".
Open that, and at the bottom is "Attack" and you can choose the picture you want from your computer file in the "Choose File".
You can add up to 10 pictures by pressing on (more attachments)
Bruce. >:D
I'm not on a computer I'm on a tablet
Should there be 12 volts going to the coil and then I was told at the parts store that I need it to put the positive on the negative and negative on the positive haven't done that yet little sketchy about that
Here
One small wire to the alternator kinda sounds like the internal regulator setup. Can anyone confirm was a 72 supposed to be internal or external? Does the alternator you currently have have the small wire connector out the back or out the side?
Your battery going dead could be for 2 alternator related reasons. #1 is that its not charging likely because the regulator isn't being turned on. #2 is the regulator is being left on when the engine isn't running so its draining the battery.
Do you know if you still have points in the distributor? Just one wire coming out of the bottom or is there 2?
No idea what they are getting at about the coil. The + terminal is a + and basically is live when the key is on. Turning the key off it goes dead and the engine stops. There is more to it than that but at this stage that is all that is important. The - terminal goes to the points in the distributor though that single wire. The points close and ground to the engine to complete the circuit.
I do have one wire coming out of the distributor and the points look good and I change the two wires around on the alternator last night and my battery is still good I'm sure I'm supposed to have 12 volts going to the coal right
I just missed the photos on the last reply.
You do have the internal regulator alternator. It looks to be connected correctly at the alternator. Jumper wire from the stud to the terminal farther from the stud is correct. The other wire needs to be +12 when the key is on. On factory cars with the internal regulator this goes through the GEN light before it goes to a key on fuse. If you check that wire with the key off it should not show any voltage. If its showing voltage that means the regulator is on and it will drain the battery. I don't know if yours had an external regulator or not. IF it did there are some specific mods needed to go internal.
On the coil I think I see a non factory crimp connector that has 2 wires in it. This is likely the + terminal on the coil. It should show +12 with the key on. - on the coil goes to the single wire out the bottom of the distributor.
Okay the wire that runs from the alternator to the bulkhead when keys off no voltage keys on no voltage my wires that run to the positive of the coil no voltage until I turn the key when I put the hot wire on the coil the voltage drops to 5.62
Do you see anything wrong here
I'm getting 2.5 volts with the key on for the wireless coming out of the alternator to the Gen light
I meant wire not wireless sorry
I will be checking what mine looks like today, and report back.
But, the normal voltage to the + side of the coil should be something like 8 Volts, and should only be 12 Volts when the Starter Motor is cranking. This 12 Volts is coming from the R terminal on the Starter Solenoid, and the lesser voltage from the resistance wire to the Ignition Switch.
Bruce. >:D
Larry,
Not to muddy the waters but I too suggest you get a factory shop manual and determine what wires are where. I do see a lot of disconnected wires and that in itself could be part of your problems.
Greg Surfas
Ok thank u I'm afraid to move any further don't want to mess up anything else I did order a shop book but it will take a week before I can get it I have way too many wires that are not connected to anything and thank you for helping me out
And it seems you have a few missing devices
Greg Surfas
I don't know if one time they had a electric choke on this reason for the wires on top of the engine that are not plugged into anything
Good thank you I could use all the help I can get right now won't get my book for a week
Do y'all need better pictures
Do you need better pictures of the motor and everything
Ok
I can see that you are missing the Anti Dieseling Solenoid, and the Transmission Kick-down switch for a start.
The Auto Choke was a linkage on the right side of the carby that went down into a covered spring on the top of the intake manifold.
Pictured is mine before I switched over to a Predator Carby.
Bruce. >:D
Here is the Alternator on my car. A bit different to yours as I have relocated it following the removal of the AIR Pump, etc. But, the wiring is the same.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on July 13, 2018, 09:04:57 PM
I can see that you are missing the Anti Dieseling Solenoid, and the Transmission Kick-down switch for start are are these parts available to buy
Bruce. >:D
Quoteare these parts available to buy
I would think they could be, but the Trans Kick-down Switches are expensive.
They would be the same for all years, '71 to '76 and possibly later, with the Carby versions, so they should be plentiful in wrecking yards. Not just Eldorados, but all the Cadillac range, and possibly Buick , Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Chevrolet.
I made my own for the kick-down switch when I changed carbies, and used a simple micro switch.
Bruce. >:D
I see you went with a HEI conversion how do you like that
I had a '75 or '76 HEI and decided to upgrade, and as I also had an Acell Coil and cover, I decided to use that as well. BUT, as a direct result of the added height of the coil cover, I had to trim it down to clear the new replacement hood insulation as it got in the way.
I thought I did a good job of trimming the cover, and everything works well.
Plus, I have spares, as I am a long way away from parts suppliers.
Bruce. >:D
PS. Plus, the GM HEI really tidies up the engine by getting rid of the external coil and lead.
So this wire here I take it goes to my transmission kickdown it has 12 volts with the ignition on where does the kickdown get mounted to
And shouldn't I have a ballast resistor going to the coil I have a resistor wire
The transmission kickdown circuit is a +. + down to the trans puts it in kickdown mode. No voltage normal mode.
I think I see the original coil resistor wire in that last photo. Its an odd looking solid wire with a cloth like insulation. That is the one that comes from the bulkhead connector and the key. Usually at the coil it meets the one from the I terminal on the starter.
You should NOT have a ballast resistor, Cadillac stopped using a ballast resistor in 1959 or 1960, a resistor wire took its place.
A picture of the kickdown switch is below. I believe the kickdown switch is odd to Cadillac alone, most other GM kickdowns were mounted inside the car on the firewall. Call Cadillac Tim at 864-348-7732, he may have one. They are indeed expensive and if you get one be sure to follow the shop manual's instructions for installation and adjustment. The switch lever is plastic and that is the first thing people break, rendering the switch useless.
The incoming wire to the switch should have 12 volts when the ignition is on, the switch passes the 12 volts to the transmission kickdown solenoid in the tranny when the throttle is depressed to about 60% of wide open throttle.
Edit: The switch bracket is mounted to the coil mount bracket which places it at the left (driver's side) of the carburetor. I can pst a pic. of it later if need be.
Okay thanks I just have to find where that wire goes down to two transmission it's a front wheel drive Cadillac Eldorado
A pic would be really helpful thanks
Larry,
In one of your pictures I see the remnants of a trailer brakes system with the possibility that there might be several modifications to your wiring system. That said my suggestion would be to wait for your shop manual and verify wiring and components one item at a time. The factory connection to the kick down switch is a two wire angle connector, but I do not see one in your pictures.
Greg Surfas
Heres the top
Here are some pictures of my '73 Coupe deVille engine compartment. Much of the wiring will be the same as your '72 Eldo, but Greg Surfas' advice is absolutely the way to go.
Pics. #1&2 --- General overall view of left and right sides
Pic. #3 --- left side showing the anti-dieseling solenoid (the round can with a rubber booty and green wire). In back of and just behind the anti-dieseling solenoid is the trans. kick-down switch. You can see how the kick-down switch is mounted to the same bracket as the anti-dieseling sol. The kick-down switch mount holes are elongated for adjustment.
Pic. #4 --- Another pic. of the same area better showing the electrical connector(s) for the anti-dieseling sol. and the kick-down switch. 12 volts (ignition switched) into the top side the kick-down switch connector (orange wire) and back out of that same side for 12 volts to the anti-dieseling sol (green wire). Other side of the kick-down connector, 90 degrees away, the single wire (orange) goes down to the transmission. You can also see the bracket that mounts the anti-dieseling sol. is attached to the same area as the coil mount.
Pardon me for saying so, I know you didn't do it, but that engine compartment wiring, etc. is an absolute mess! Looks like someone stripped out some valuable parts and sold them off separately from the car.
A few more general pictures of my engine compartment. Note in the 3rd pic. the vacuum tubes/lines coming off the back of the carb. The larger one on the bottom goes to the power brake booster, the smaller one goes down the right side to the vacuum modulator on the right side of the trans on a rear wheel drive car. Your TH425 trans. should have the same line but I am not sure of its routing in an Eldo.
Edit: My car is not bone stock in some areas, as others my notice, but it is basically so.
Yeah I know it is a complete mess but I plan on getting it right need to get it running again some reason I'm not getting any Spark out of the coil
And Cole is brand new I'm getting 12 volts to the double wire hot wire but when I put it on the coil I'm only getting 5 volts which I believe that's right during cranking to get 7 and 1/2 to 8 votes I used the coil wire coming off the coil and one of those spark plug testers for check for spark I don't get anything
12 volts at the + side of the coil when the starter is cranking the engine to start it --- 7 to 8 volts at the + side of the coil when the engine has started. Wires to the coil go to the coil's + terminal, wire to the distributor comes from the coil's - (minus) terminal. With the ignition in the ON (not START) position but the engine not running you should also have 7/8 volts at the + terminal of the coil.
I know Bruce has said this before but somehow that is not exactly what I am understanding from your post. What you really need is someone who understands your Cadillac and its wiring to stand there with you and sort things out --- know anyone near you like that?
Larry
What part of the universe are you in?
Greg Surfas
Don't have anyone around here with that kind of knowledge
I'm just waiting on my book but I do got to admit it's bugging the hell out of me
The 2 pin connector that is bent 90* is the one for the kickdown. As long as its not shorting to anything it should not be hurting anything not being connected. I can't tell for sure in an earlier photo but it didn't look like the resistor wire was connected to anything.
I think was Greg was getting at with the roughly where are you located question was maybe there is a member in your area that could come take a look at it. This club and forum have members all over the world and many of them work on their own cars. It would be even better if there is someone with a 72 that could drive it to yours so you had them side by side.
Back when I first got my car and joined the local club I found out there was a member with an almost identical car a couple miles from my parents house. I was able to drive over to his garage with my box of random parts that came in the trunk and figure out where everything went and what wasn't even for that car.
Westmoreland Tn North of Nashville Tn that whould work out good
Some places sell new wiring harness for under dash, such as USA Parts. I bought one for my 1970 Cadillac. Collectors seem to be willing to put that time and money into a 1965-70 DVC, but not an Eldorado so it may not be reproduced. The body wiring harnesses are not reproduced, unless you go custom made (you have to get them a core) - then say good by to thousands of dollars and weeks of time.
A really good option is used. I have bought a used harness for a 1972 Eldorado (engine bay) and a 1970 SDV (body) from Cadillac King in CA, and they were very lean and good quality.
The shop manual is essential, but sometimes even with that it is not very easy to deal with because the wiring diagram is diagrammatic, very small print, and not in color. The color wiring diagrams offered for sale as reproductions often contain errors. I would buy a used one if price is OK.
Larry
If all you want is to get it running I might suggest running a jumper from the battery to the coil. Be sure the car is in neutral and then hit the start position of the ignition switch. To shut it off just disconnect the jumper.
Greg Surfas
Ok thanks
This is some of what I'm dealing with that was in the fuse block was in a 25 watt breaker and the fuse that's melted there is a 40 amp not good
Larry,
Boy oh boy. You have a fair bit of checking to do there.
Bruce. >:D
Larry, I have attached a shot of one (of the many) wiring diagrams that you will find in the 72 Factory service manual. It is going to be just like how you eat an elephant. One bite at a time. The drawings show where the individual wires go into each of the bulkhead connectors and where they terminate. I have found these diagrams 100% accurate.
For example, I would start at the bulkhead connector on the engine side of the firewall. I would verify the wires (color and guage) are in the correct connection of the connector, and then I would follow them to the device that they are supposed to serve.
As a practical tip, what IO did was to remove the diagrams I needed from the service manual and had enlarged copies of the diagrams made. I then colored the wires on the copy as indicated so tracing them was easier. Easier is a relative word. With what you have shown us so far I would expect that a good 50 to 60 hours will be involved in completion of this task.
Greg Surfas
My buddy has a 68 Cadillac DeVille power windows and convertible top stopped working the same time any suggestions
I believe it's starting to look better still working on the wiring part though >:(
The old "rattle can overhaul". Why did you use that color? The correct color is available and looks much better. Even not running.
Greg Surfas
I pulled up the color coat for it that's what matched there were some spots on the motor the same color on the lower end by the oil pan
The correct color for Cadillac valve covers and engines from 1949 through 1976 is Cadillac Blue, available from Bill Hirsch or mix your own from Rustoleum Royal Blue with a little Black to match an original dark blue piece.
http://www.hirschauto.com/AEROSOL-ENGINE-ENAMEL/productinfo/EEA-SPRAY/CAD%20DK%20BLU/
The Cadillac (dark) Blue from Bill Hirsch in rattle cans was out of stock for some time but his site now lists it as "in stock". It also comes in brush-on cans.
The color of your engine appears to be GM "Corporate Blue" which Cadillac used after 1976. Some one painted yours the incorrect color in the past (which you copied) or I suppose it is in the realm of possibility that you have a later (after '76) engine in there. The correct Cadillac Blue for your car used to be available at parts stores in rattle cans, but no longer.
Below is a picture of a 1966 Cadillac engine in "Cadillac Blue"
Well I'm going to change the color
Okay I ran a hot wire to my coil I still have no fire from the battery
What do you mean no fire FROM the battery?
Greg Surfas
Yep no fire
The wire has to go from the battery to the + on the coil, to get ignition, and the - on the coil to the distributor, and then simply crank the engine over with the Starter Motor/Key.
MAKE SURE THE CAR IN IN PARK.
If it starts, to turn it off, simply remove the wire from the coil to the battery from the battery.
What you are doing this way is to by-pass the on-board ignition circuit.
Bruce. >:D
That's what I did Bruce I disconnected the two wires going to the coil going to the bulkhead and ran a wire to the positive of the battery to the positive of the coil
So, when you cranked the engine, did it fire up?
Bruce. >:D
NO
Well, don't know what to say apart from asking if you poured a gut-full of petrol into the carby immediately prior to cranking the engine over.
Have you got spark at a plug lead whilst cranking?
This is tough over the internet.
Bruce. >:D
I don't have no spark at all from the number one do you know where I can get the bracket for the decel and the kickdown solenoid I'd probably have to look around a salvage yard right
A couple of suggestions, if no one comes up with those pieces, would be Cadillac Tim (864-348-7732, no website) --- or Willington Cadillac (Jeff Burland) http://willingtoncadillac.com/ or eBay.
In my opinion you really need to bite the bullet and get (hire) a mechanic to come and see just what you are dealing with here. It shouldn't take a good mechanic very long to find your problem. Just be sure that if he is not familiar with your engine that you point out to him that #1 is on the passenger side, those educated on Chevrolet have to learn this. ;D