Hi guys,
I figure someone on this forum might have dealt with this issue: I hit a pothole and my rear-view mirror broke off the windshield. Happened before a couple years ago and I reglued it with the standard auto parts store adhesive. But this time the metal mounting button or whatever took a similar-sized shard of glass with it when it broke off. The bond held. Only repair is replacement. Made me realize the auto-dimming mirror is very heavy and will likely break off again. I'd like to mount the mirror to the roof/upper windshield frame directly like a 1960s Mustang and skip the windshield mount altogether and get it over with forever.
Complicating factor: I have an ASC convertible, so the mounting possibilities probably aren't as good. Only thing up there is visor holder, held with a single #2 Phillips screw that's about an inch long. Doesn't feel like it can take a lot of weight. Anyone dealt with this before and have any advice? Is there a rear-view mirror mount from another Caddy that attaches to the roof that might fit well and work with the standard 85 auto dim mirror? Anyone know what's up in that upper frame and can it handle the weight of the mirror? See attached picture to see the visor holder. By the way, I have since reglued the mirror mount again, three inches to the right of the original location. Glass shop is hunting for a replacement windshield now.
Thanks a lot!
Scott
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1774/43051812385_334d9ac60f.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/28AkMVk)IMG_5761 (https://flic.kr/p/28AkMVk) by scottcelder (https://www.flickr.com/photos/74918173@N00/), on Flickr
I guess you could get a standard mirror and try to glue a new mount under the chip out or try to use the stone and epoxy it back into the windshield with the chip attached.
I've owned a bunch of 79-85 Eldoa and Sevilles and never encountered one of those mirrors.
Thanks Brian. Huh. I thought the auto-dimming mirror was a standard option. I think made by a company called Gentex. My grandfather's Cadillacs of that era had them and my friend with a super stock 85 Biarritz has the same exact mirror. Scroll down to Competitive Availability here: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/history-originality/539018-auto-dimming-mirror-thread.html
What kind of mirror did your 79-85s have? Was it windshield mounted?
All of my cars of that vintage just had a plain windshield mounted mirror with no electronics or wires going to them.
Scott, sorry for your problem. Brian is the resident expert on these cars and like him I have never seen on with an auto dimming mirror. However, I love your West Virginia auto repair. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Coat Hangers and Duck Tape indispensable when repairing antique cars.
if your are attending the Potomac Region meeting Saturday maybe some of the attendees would have a suggestion. Best, Lynn
Well, the family is from PA, so it's more of a Pennsyltucky repair... I've heard tell of this Potomac Region chapter. I'm going to a wedding so can't. I'll check an event out some day.
Re-glued mirror seems to be working okay, attached 3" to the right of center. For now.
Checked my 1985 Cadillac brochure with all the models and options. For Eldo it says in Available Features: "New Automatic Day/Night Inside Rearview Mirror: Automatically adjusts the rearview mirror to the non-glare mode." That's it.
I'd just cut the wires and replace it with something lighter. The mirror isn't super useful. But since it's one of the features I remember from grandpa's Cadillacs, gotta try to keep it.
I found the rear view was much cut off by the roof, so I did a
couple mods. First was get the rear leveling up quite a bit.
Then I remounted the mirror a couple inches lower on the
glass, to see better under the roof. You could do that, maybe
just use a standard mirror, which has never damaged glass
for me. Bruce Roe
I had an older looking version of that mirror (control wise) in my 1984 Toronado. It wasn't working and so I decided to take it apart. When I opened it the "Gentex" label fell out. I was able to get a replacement from Gentex which looks like the one you are showing. That was somewhere around 1993 to 1996. The original one had a photo-resistor which was bad but at the time I couldn't find a replacement for the photo resistor only.
I love those mirrors. Some of the car magazines were advertising them for a while but they were really pretty expensive as I recall.
One other thing at least my 1979 Toronado has the mirror attached to the "puck" on the window like some others described.
Scott
Seems like I did own something from GM with that style mirror that had a larger than the usual mount. Early 90's Roadmaster maybe? It was several years ago so the details are a little fuzzy but I remember it having the same size part that fit on the mirror but the glass end was larger. There was a plastic trim bit that went on after you glued the thing to the glass that covered the extra size and also the wire I think.
My 'new' 90 has that style mirror too, I will try and remember to look at how its mounted when I go out in search of food soon.
On my Toronado there wasn't anything special covering the wiring that I can recall. The mirror puck placed it pretty close to the front edge of the headliner trim and the wire simply followed the mounting arm. As I recall it was set-up with pretty simple wiring other than something was tied into the reverse light circuit so when you shift into reverse the mirror acts like a normal mirror; 99.9% certain that was the case. I've seen a version of that wire cover which I believe TJ referred to. It seems like it was basically like a hollowed-out plastic capital letter "I" that the wires could be hidden under. I guess it dressed things up a bit. Those mirrors would be a great find if anyone was near a junkyard. I would certainly love to have a few to install in my 80's vehicles and even even my Sonoma if I could find a version with map lights.
I still have that replacement mirror from Gentex someplace I think. I believe I had to send the original into Gentex to get the replacement. I'm kicking myself now for forgetting where I put it. As I recall though I wanted it for my 1979 and so I removed it before I donated the 1984 Toronado.
Scott
I looked last night and my 90 Deville has that mirror, regular looking mount, and the wire runs along the arm to the glass then up against the glass through a hole in the inner trim.
It could have been a mid 90's subruban that maybe had the larger mount. Maybe it was larger on that because of the possible 'offroad' vibrations? I'm trying to remember if my current burb, a 98 has that mirror. I guess an excuse to drive that to the store and look later today. IF the trucks had them they should be easy to come by only issue would be if the curve of the glass maybe isn't the same. With the larger mounting surface that may make a difference. I'm assuming it was only an option with the higher optioned trucks.
Hey guys, thanks for your helpful notes. Been under water with work but will reply soon. Quick updates: I did a thorough mounting job (taped off the spot and lightly sanded as prep, reglued with kit from AutoZone, I think) and the jerk broke off yet again and took yet another bite out of the windshield. Current planned medium-term temporary fix is this suction mount (just arrived in the mail) with a small steel crossbar and drilled-in original mounting button. Still thinking through the details of how I'm gonna tackle it.
https://www.rammount.com/part/RAP-224-1U
...and. My working long-term idea is to take a flat 3mm aluminum plate, cut it like this (see crappy graphic): Screw into visor clip area at the +; bend aluminum at the =, drill/screw puck/button in at X. Need to do research into what that over-windshield roof area can handle. Fischer manual doesn't help. Kind of doubt the existing screw for the visor clip (pictured above) could handle the weight alone.
â€"â€"â€"
| + |
| |
\ = /
\ /
|X|
â€"
Isn't the windshield getting replaced? I would simply have the windshield shop install the mirror as per original. Reinstalling rearview mirrors is a regular part of windshield replacement for which nobody is better qualified.
If windshield mounting was good enough when the car was new, there's no reason it shouldn't be good enough now. A cobbled up roof rail mount job is going to stick out like a sore thumb.
Fair point, Eric. The adhesive to glass mount did indeed last for years. But now that I live in a part of the city with bad potholes, this has happened three times in three months. Don't remember if I mentioned it, but the SafeLight guy who came to look at it for my insurance said he had an early 80s Eldo in DC that had the same mirror and the same bit-glass problem. His solution was to cut the wire and live without a rearview mirror. I think the mirror is simply too heavy for a direct to glass mount, at least in a city with big potholes and bad roads.
The recommended glass and body shop flaked on their search for the windshield. I haven't called them back because I really don't think a direct-to-glass mount can support this heavy mirror. At least in a city. Given that the adhesive held well enough to rip the glass off, I don't think stronger/better adhesive would help. Long term, I intend to replace the glass. GEICO will cover it with a $250 deductible.
That's a very rough sketch of what I have in mind. I got an A in shop class and I think I could make it look good.
The dimming mirror was pretty cool, Lincoln also offered them. I wonder if your windshield has been replaced with foreign knockoff? I had that mirror on an 84 H&E convertible and it never came off?
I do have one of those dimming mirrors in inventory and a white convertible top boot for a 1985 eldo Biarritz convertible available.
That mirror was not that heavy from what I recall and my 1984 Toronado came with the option but with puck on glass. I've heard people say you really need to "adhere" to the directions on replacement pucks to get them to stay ;)
Around WNY our roads are complete crap after each winter; municipalities using more and more salt every year. In 2016 I could still see signs of salt on the shoulders and in the potholes as late as July; relatively dry spring also contributed. People have gotten accustom to driving like they're on summer roads all of the time so the roads get hammered with salt. There were many many cars from the factory with the puck on glass solution and so I would say 50% of the cars around this area would be without rear view mirrors if potholes and puck on glass was that bad of a combination.
I also want to take a look at my 79 Eldorado. I think that too is puck on glass. It did not come with the dimming mirror but it made me wonder what year the Eldorado moved to the rod from the roof which you are having an issue with. Cadillac didn't do that just for these mirrors did they? The 84 Toronado mirror was bulkier than the version you show but even the bulky one was not that heavy; just a bit more chunky looking. I put the original back in before I donated the car.
Scott
Hey guys, here's the glass markings. Thought that was original: (https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4900/46069237682_1bca96936f_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dbYTkq)IMG_5754 (https://flic.kr/p/2dbYTkq) by scottcelder (https://www.flickr.com/photos/74918173@N00/), on Flickr
I did some research into when Cadillac started doing direct-to-glass mounts. I think it was 1971-73, but I'd need to check. Before then, mirror mounted to roof. I didn't realize they ever went back to roof-mount after. I thought Cadillac used direct-to-glass mounts from the early 70s till at least the 2000s.
I might seem crazy, but this mirror is quite heavy. Compared to this mirror, all the others I've had weighed hardly anything. Given that the previous adhesion was strong enough to rip the glass off twice, I don't see why better/stronger adhesion would improve things, since the glass itself was the failure point.
I'm familiar with the early Auto Dimming mirrors which are indeed
somewhat heavy due to the motorized parts used in mirrors that dim
by mechanical means.
But also keep in mind, the action of simply adjusting the mirror imposes
much more force on the point of attachment than the weight of the mirror itself
- even if the mirror was the (lighter) conventional type. The attachment must
therefore must be sufficiently strong to withstand this action in the first place.
The markings you have shown indicate the windshield had been replaced at
some point. As I say, a good glass shop should have the materials needed to
for making a secure attachment of the button to the glass. I think the situation
of the glass separation in your case was a very rare fluke. I've dealt with a lot of fallen
rearview mirrors over the years and I've never seen that before.
Eric,
The mirror replacement I bought in the mid 90's which looked nearly identical to the one in question was not motorized. It was just like the current auto-dimming technology where they had something on the mirror glass backing. I believe even the original I had from 1984 was the same or similar. It's been a long time but I took the 1984 mirror apart to diagnose what was wrong and it had no motor inside (photo resistor had gone bad). At the time I got the Gentex replacement, mid 90's, I wondered why they were so expensive and so I did a little how it works research at the time. I'm pretty certain I even found a technical paper or a patent explaining them. I will search the net sometime and see if I can find the explanation again when I have a chance.
Scott
Here's the inside of my type mirror. Mine's the boxier version. Mine has a motor.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/history-originality/539018-auto-dimming-mirror-thread.html
Hmm... maybe I didn't look at the original in my '84 Toronado close enough. It's late now so I only went through part of the information on the link but it seems to document things well and I believe I stand corrected regarding the comments on my original one. I'm now second guessing the replacement but I do remember seeing the technical document or patent where the method was different but I saw it in the mid 90's. The replacement didn't have any obvious signs anything was motorized or moving. My original never worked while I had the car though so I don't have a comparison point.
I agree with the points made with respect to the force on the puck and the glass resulting from human adjustment as well as it seems like it would not be a common occurrence to break the glass.
Scott
I found at least the European patent application for the Electrochromatic version without the motor to tilt the glass. This was just the application and not the actual patent. Reading through the description it is what I remember reading years ago (or at least it's the European version). Although what I previously read I don't believe mentioned the sideview mirrors? This application is interesting because in disclosing the prior art they provide what I would call the history of the world in automatically adjustable mirrors... at least history of the world up to 1987. Gentex also had a lot of activity in this field after 1987 though.
Here's some of what is in that application describing the Electrochromatic copied directly from the application:
Improved automatic rearview mirror system for automotive vehicles
EP0285724A2
Inventor: Jon H. Bechtel, Harlan J. Byker
Current Assignee: Gentex Corp
Original Assignee: Gentex Corp
Priority date: 1987-04-06
Abstract
An improved automatic rearview mirror system which is particularly adapted for use with automotive vehicles and which may be utilized as a fully integrated inside/outside rearview mirror system or as an inside or an outside rearview mirror system. The system includes a variable reflectance member (5) the reflectivity of which varies as a function of an electrical signal applied thereto, and the system also includes improved means (18,19,20,21,22) operable to apply an electrical signal to the variable reflectance member to vary the reflectivity of such member as a function of sensed ambient light and sensed glare causing light.
Detailed Description (0024)
In general, in automatic rearview mirror systems embodying the present invention, both the inside and the outside rearview mirrors are comprised of a thin chemical layer sandwiched between two glass elements. As the chemical layer is electrically energized, it darkens and begins to absorb light. The higher the voltage, the darker the mirror becomes. When the electrical voltage is removed, the mirror returns to its clear state. Automatic rearview mirror systems embodying the present invention also incorporate light sensing electronic circuitry which is effective to switch the mirrors to the nighttime mode when glare is detected. However, there is no glass movement, and the change is more subtle than the changes in conventional prism type mirrors. In systems embodying the present invention, the sandwiched chemical layer is activated when glare is detected thereby darkening the mirror automatically. As glare subsides, the mirror glass returns to its normal clear state without any action being required on the part of the driver. In automatic rearview mirror systems embodying the present invention, the mirror darkens in continuous fashion as opposed to conventional two-step changes in the reflectance mode of conventional rearview mirrors. In systems embodying the present invention, reflectance changes from approximately 85 percent reflectance down to approximately 6 percent reflectance, the amount of dimming depending on how much glare the driver experiences. With only a little glare, the mirror dims only partially while with bright blinding glare, the mirror dims to a fully dark condition. The middle range, or comfort zone, is a 20 percent to 30 percent reflectance level that eliminates the most common glare encountered under normal driving conditions while still providing maximum rear vision.
Here's a link to the full document:
https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0285724A2
Scott
I looked at my 98 Suburban and my guess its its an LCD sort of thing rather than a motor. This model also includes a compass display in the corner. I don't know how heavy it is compared to the one in question. Its mount at first appears to be much larger but if you look close from the outside there is still something about the size of the classic ones that seems to be the main mounting point. There is something larger that surrounds it and also appears to touch the glass, not sure what that is for. I wonder if its maybe some sort of antenna? I think this is pre onstar but maybe its for garage door openers or the keyless entry.
So doesn't appear to be any help looking at a newer one unless its just the weight. I have no idea if the compass part is self contained or it gets its signal from somewhere else.
I do remember seeing aftermarket auto dimming mirrors. Don't remember where, maybe a JC Whittney sort of place? I remember considering ordering one but didn't like the idea of trying to run the wire so never did it.
Interesting, thanks Scott.
In the link I added above about the Gentex mirrors I think it mentions doing away with the motor in later models.
By the way, the mount has never broken when I was adjusting the mirror. Always while driving. And I let the button/puck dry for 24 hours before I put the mirror on it.
I'm going to the hardware store today to buy some nuts and bolts for my temporary suction cup fix. If it works for full size DSLR cameras, should work for me.
p.s. I think my motorized mirror is the first generation by Gentex. Which explains why mine doesn't have a quick disconnect wiring connection. As I recall, it's soldered directly to the board in mine, so I can't just temporarily remove it without cutting the wires. Which I don't want to do.
I believe the motorized type Auto Dimming mirrors ran from
1985 - 1987 or 1988; Electrochromic version was used thereafter.
Scott (Elderado),
It’s interesting to read some of the mirror history from that patent application and the link you (Elderado) shared.
I think I got from part of the history at one time there was only a single rear facing photo sensor. The mirror in my 84 Toronado had both front and rear facing sensors. I also recall that it had the multiple number positions shown in that other forum link where-as the one I got in the mid 90’s had only near-far. I don’t remember much more about the original other than one of the photo sensors tested bad and it had a loose Gentex label inside the housing. The label made it obvious who made it for GM. That was the first mirror of that type I had ever seen.
TJ,
I clearly recall seeing it in car magazines as an aftermarket part and if I saw it likely it was in “Autoweek†or “Automobile Magazine†because those are the ones I had subscriptions to. It’s been a long time but I think they were advertising the aftermarket replacements for over $200! I could be wrong but I think before I thought to contact Gentex directly I asked the local Oldsmobile/Cadillac Dealer and I think they told me around $400. I even had a GM discount on parts at the time.
The electrochromatic version was really nice. I ordered my 2003 Sonoma and an option like that was not available but I wanted it based on that 84 Toronado replacement mirror.
Eric,
I think it was somewhere in that time frame as well. They never really came out and said in that link but I was guessing 88 or 89. The patent application seemed to be detailed enough that they had it close to ready but I was basically thinking 1 to 2 years after the patent. There was probably a big incentive to reduce cost of the motorized one. If the motorized ones commonly had issues they probably needed a solution to maintain the business. I can say they were extremely helpful on the phone.
Scott
I'll have to check my literature for the model year change to the new
Electrochromic type. I'm fairly certain the older type was gone
by 1989.
Personally I never found the mechanical type to work very
well, even when functioning properly.
Failure was common within relatively short periods of time which
I think was mainly due to breakage of the rubber bands in the unit.
Ironically, mine functions perfectly. :-\
p.s. I contacted a former dealership service manager during the 80s and 90s on the Caddy Owners forum. He said he never saw this happen with the bitten glass.
While sitting at a stoplight in my Suburban today I observed there are 2 cables coming out of the mirror. One appears to be the power wires that run into the upper trim. The other goes from the mirror to that big thing that surrounds the mount. I wonder if that is the 'antenna' for the compass feature? In mid 90's tech did you need a separate thing for the compass? I suppose its not really an antenna, its just where the chip or module lives since you really would not want it in the mirror since you can change the angle of the mirror independently from where the vehicle is pointed?
Got me thinking I should look to see if those can be had cheap from a pick n pull junkyard. Just a bonus you maybe get a compass to go with it.
Temporary suction cup mount. Haven't tested it yet, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. Windshield is tinted at the top, so basically will be hidden:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4835/32279038798_4c26c25618_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RbovDG)image1 (https://flic.kr/p/RbovDG) by scottcelder (https://www.flickr.com/photos/74918173@N00/), on Flickr
It's a killer suction cup and would distribute the load well. It seems like the issue with suction cups is they will eventually fall off. So would you remove it after each drive?
I would still favor the puck on glass idea. When you make adjustments to the mirror use a second hand to hold the shaft to counteract the load of adjustment and protect your glass and the puck.
I did finally verify that my 79 Eldorado hard top does have a puck mount so I don't think using one would ever seem out of place. Maybe it was discussed already but did all convertibles use the shaft you pictured or just those with the motorized mirror and then I guess only 1985 since only the Toronado was offered with the mirror in 1984 (and in 1984 the Toronado had puck on glass mounting).
Scott
Thanks Scott. That's really just a temporary fix. Great improvement over my current customized wire hanger. Now it will function as a mirror at least. Baby steps here... Based on the reviews etc. of the suction cup, it's supposed to stay put for a long time. How long? We'll find out.
p.s. I think I might have given confusing or bad info earlier: As far as I know, the factory mount for all 85s regardless of mirror type was a glass puck/button. I think Cadillac used a glass-mounted puck from the early 70s until at least the 2000s. I'd like to fabricate a roof mount that never existed for 1979-85 Eldorado, a flat bent plate that would mount to the roof, hidden under center visor clip.
Quote from: Elderado on December 02, 2018, 04:23:38 PM
p.s. I think I might have given confusing or bad info earlier: As far as I know, the factory mount for all 85s regardless of mirror type was a glass puck/button. ... I'd like to fabricate a roof mount that never existed for 1979-85 Eldorado, a flat bent plate that would mount to the roof, hidden under center visor clip.
Aha. Ok I understand now. Thanks for the clarification.
Scott
If I had my druthers, I'd just screw something like this in there:
https://www.caddydaddy.com/1959-1960-cadillac-convertible-interior-mirror-bracket-reproduction-free-shipping-in-the-usa.html
But doesn't look like it would fit the shape in an 85, and I don't know if the 85 convertible roof area could support it/take the screws. And I'd also have to build some kind of T adapter to mount the windshield puck.
All mirrors were directly mounted to the windshield glass in all Eldorados of this generation whether hardtop or convertible.
As I see it, the difficulty with the suction device is that it will likely flex whenever adjustment of the mirror is attempted making it difficult to set the mirror to the desired position. Secondly, the cup will likely lose suction over time - at least far more often than if the mirror was attached in the conventional method. Also, due to the inherent springy characteristic of rubber, it is likely the mirror will bob and flutter with vehicle speed and road surface conditions, and there is nothing more distracting than a mirror fluttering about.
Finally, I cannot see how the alteration will not be visible since the point of attachment is not normally in the shaded area of the glass.
By all means try it if you must but my guess is that sooner or later you'll go back to the original mounting - probably sooner.
I've tested the suction cup on my glass coffee table. It has a twist-lock feature that tightens it and makes it quite tight against glass. When locked, I can only move the metal puck about a millimeter or two. Hardly moves.
I'll only adjust the mirror once and when I do I'll do it before locking the suction cup down. It might get loose and fall off, but this should be an improvement over my current coat hanger regardless.
Here's the tinting on my bitten windshield. Suction cup diameter is 3", which should fit inside the tinted area. The stock mount arm has two ball adjusters allowing a lot of range, so I think it should work. I'll try it tomorrow and post a picture: (https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4918/45427589704_c322c5ba2d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2cdhgKf)IMG_5755 (https://flic.kr/p/2cdhgKf) by scottcelder (https://www.flickr.com/photos/74918173@N00/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4851/46081085122_f66b4953f8_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dd2BaC)IMG_5898 (https://flic.kr/p/2dd2BaC) by scottcelder (https://www.flickr.com/photos/74918173@N00/), on Flickr
Seems to work. We'll see for how long.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4899/46178119721_3e5792e964_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dmAWaX)IMG_5977 (https://flic.kr/p/2dmAWaX) by scottcelder (https://www.flickr.com/photos/74918173@N00/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4841/46178118531_cc48a3ea55_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dmAVPr)IMG_5978 (https://flic.kr/p/2dmAVPr) by scottcelder (https://www.flickr.com/photos/74918173@N00/), on Flickr