While I can sympathize with an experience that is no doubt traumatic, there is no excuse with not familiarizing oneself with all controls to ensure safe operation covered in the owner's manual - especially in a car as advanced as the XLR.
Why do so many remove important owner's literature from their vehicles where it is most needed I will never understand.
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/09/13/stuck-cadillac-xlr-dead-battery/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000021&yptr=yahoo
I take his side. Sure, there were things he coulda done better, but I have been in that situation before.
I'm 35, strong health, I was riding with my brother in his black BMW. He had some paperwork to do at the hospital, so he parked with me inside. I was fiddling around on my phone, oblivious, and the car locked. Well, it was a 90 degree day, and after about a minute I realized how bad a situation it was. I'm sure BMW had a way to get out, but I had no idea what it was and you start to panic quickly. The door handles did not work.
Luckily, he answered his phone. I might have been able to break a window, but, there are all sorts of hypothetical complications that could result in someone dying.
Just saying he (I) shoulda read the manual is not good enough.
Always carry a way to cut your seat belt or smash your window if you have to. A window can be replaced...your life cannot.
I do not side with the 75 year old man. Remember this was a matter of life and death - he gave up and was ready to die. Given a matter of life or death, it seems incredible that a car in a garage could imprison a human with a driver's license. This was discussed locally by our CLC members and the census was not in support of the man, and some were mad he was supposedly going to sue Cadillac.
Unfortunately many can be very nonchalant where it comes to familiarizing themselves with all features of their cars. I've answered many questions posed here that could have easily been answered by simply reading the owner's manual.
Years ago, I read a review of the new 1980 Seville in which the writer also claimed he had been locked inside. The 80 Seville was one of the first cars to use slide action manual door locks rather than the traditional pin style knobs located on the upper door panels as was common. He eventually made it out - you guessed it - by reading the manual.
Manuals are there for a reason.
I’ve been trapped in this damn hobby for over 30 long years. Cadillac should have warned me that there is no release from the clutches of 50s Eldorados and prewar customs. Anyone know a good lawyer.....?
I don't think the average 75 year old man is going to be able to get out of that by force even if he has the magic hammer. I've seen clips of people trying to use those hammers in real life conditions, and they don't always work.
I'm not discussing legal liability here, the case would be weak...pointless in a contributory negligence state...but am I aggravated by some stuff being needlessly complex? Yes. I have no idea why that car couldn't have a mechanical latch/lock on the door. Safety is only one reason for that aggravation.
BTW, y'all know the hot coffee case? A lot of people made fun of it, well, the coffee was nearly boiling, caused 3rd degree burns, and was regularly served that hot to discourage refills. Not every lawsuit is frivolous, even some where the facts at first blush seem jarring.
Our CTS Coupe has the same setup.
There is a manual door release.
When you are sitting in the car you probably can't see the release so you have to know its there and feel around for it.
14 hours stuck in a closed up car must have been pretty terrible. I'm guessing he had no phone with him.
As an old guy, in my opinion the complexity of modern cars is un-necessary and merely a selling point directed toward young people who are fascinated by such things.
Deciding to keep things simple, I bought a 2009 Toyota Corolla Base model (Made in USA) as my daily driver with analog instruments, crank up windows, manual door locks/trunk lock/gas tank flap/hood release, as well as stick shift. It suits me just fine, though I've been laughed at. It's a dull gray color and looks like every other car in a parking lot (it's only negative). I don't think new cars like that are sold anymore in the US. I get my kicks from my '49 Cad.
My wife and I both have a hammer/knife/flashlight gizmo in our cars for emergencies.
I am now what I'd call an "old" person. But I think,(trying to use the lever to release the tilt wheel as a turn signal or not), that in fourteen hours that I would not have pulled, hit at, or whatever inside of that car at least twice. I like living too much. Logic would tell you that any release would be where the driver could get to it. And go from there. In any case, I'm glad the guy got out.
Emergency lever along side the seat.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170111/8889190d8e717b1064afa32e8182c7dd.png)
Remind me again how many millions the person got over safe operation of a coffee cup?
Or the Winnebago driver who set the ‘auto pilot’ cruise control and proceeded from the drivers seat rearward to fix himself a beverage?
Darwin Awards
BTW corvettes use the same method of door latch...what’s the median age there?
I'm sorry, but there is just no excuse.
We all have been inconveniently trapped by some aspect of technology, but by in large technology makes life better. Heck, we are all typing on this forum. Sure, trapped in the car for 15 minutes, half hour, but 14 hours and give up like a dog to die - no way. Frankly, don't think that I have ever rode in a car or drove one without my phone since maybe 1992 or so. I'm 57, healthy, so older than average not writing like I'm 25. My 80 year old neighbor who I have known for 30 years is not going to ever be trapped in his car either.
Quote from: V63 on September 14, 2018, 06:36:25 PM
Remind me again how many millions the person got over safe operation of a coffee cup?
Or the Winnebago driver who set the ‘auto pilot’ cruise control and proceeded from the drivers seat rearward to fix himself a beverage?
Darwin Awards
BTW corvettes use the same method of door latch...what’s the median age there?
The 79 year old lady got $650k for 8 days in the hospital, as they worked to graft skin into areas where you don't want that to happen.
Only a tort lawyer would celebrate this sort of award.
Whatever happened to contributory negligence? We are never to blame ourselves it's always someone else to blame. Or at least someone with a deep pocket.
Temporary sidetrack warning:
Contributory negligence has been replaced in most states by comparative, which allows people to recover in those situations where some fraction of fault was attributable to the plaintiff. This change started in california and spread.
I view torts as a perfectly legitimate mechanism for the awarding of damages, and I see that mechanism as being part of the free market. Don't like it? Dont make shoddy products that hurt people or carelessly endanger people. Dont be negligent. Its a good deal. This is how America works. Its a merit based system where the jury decides.
The problem is no matter how you draft the rules, there are bad cases. Under contributory negligence, someone who is seriously, seriously harmed may not be able to recover if they are say 2% negligent themselves. That is terribly harsh!
Then, under comparative, it gets all muddied up with all sort of frivolous cases (real ones) that make you pull your hair out.
The coffee case, though, I have seen the pictures of the damage done to that lady. If you were on the jury, you would have found for her. She turned black. Thats why trying cases in the media is a bad idea.
Tying this back to the car, and general car stuff, I still havent gotten an answer for why Cadillac, BMW or anyone has to have a complicated, electronically controlled door handle. Its not CAFE standards (the usual suspect when a modern car feature doesnt make sense), and it surely isnt safety standards...what is it? Take lawsuits out of the question...why?
BTW, everybody keeps assuming in this little hypo attached to this guy that they get 14 hours in a 77 degree weather. What if it was hot that day? What if the car was black? What if it was a pregnant woman? All sort of things could make the situation end way worse. Its all foreseeable that Cadillac may have to worry about a worse fact pattern down the road.
I mentioned the electric-door problem a few months ago in the context of a Corvette, a hot parking lot, an unfortunate man, and his dog.
http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=150322.msg396414#msg396414
I think GM should be sued. The brain, under extreme stress, does crazy things. I'm a software UI designer and technical writer so I've studied (and been subjected to) people who are under stress (for whatever reason) and want/need help NOW. It's not a calm, cool, collected audience we're discussing.
Reading a manual to get out of a car? How many people, really, will ever resort to *reading a manual* to get out of a car? How many folks -- even Corvette owners -- know how their car works well enough to ascertain the problem, even in general terms?
We're living in a drive-by-wire automotive world now, but manufacturers (understandably) do all they can to make it seem as though their vehicles still sport "mechanical" connections in their steering, braking, and acceleration systems. Why? Because we've got 100 years of car-operating precedent for Average Joe to lean upon. People shouldn't have to die because those traditional conventions have been short circuited purely for aesthetic or economic reasons.
Back in a much gentler time, I remember how freaked out my Mom was when the electric windows in her 1966 Toronado quit just after she and my aunt started out on a long drive to "Pepsi-Cola" Florida. I happened to be out (working on my car) in the driveway when she unexpectedly pulled up. Mom hopped out of the Toronado as it was made of anthrax. "The WINDOWS DON'T WORK" she screamed.
Granted it was a hot, summer day. But the Toronado's air conditioning could freeze out even the most hardened penguin. Mom and Aunt Edna weren't going to die. It took all of 30 minutes for me to visit the parts store, get a new power-window relay, install it, and demonstrate how the windows now zipped up and down like new. She refused to get back into the Toronado. The trip was cancelled. "What if *that* relay goes out? The windows will quit *again*!" It took a couple of days for her to calm down enough to regard the Toronado as something less than a FWD Death Trap.
When I think of how minor that power-window incident was and how completely unhinged my Mom became, I have no problem at all imagining the brain-freezing terror that must be boiling these Corvette/XLR owners' brains.
Quote from: WTL on September 14, 2018, 08:21:54 PM
Tying this back to the car, and general car stuff, I still havent gotten an answer for why Cadillac, BMW or anyone has to have a complicated, electronically controlled door handle. Its not CAFE standards (the usual suspect when a modern car feature doesnt make sense), and it surely isnt safety standards...what is it? Take lawsuits out of the question...why?
It is a deadly combination of arrogant, clueless, uninformed interior designers with overconfident, blustering, hopelessly naive engineers.
For more ugly automotive examples of this flavor of hubris, see Tesla.
You just cannot engineer all of any possible problem out of any system.
I agree that just because a company can, does not mean they should;, like I do not need a remote for my radio - the dials are within reach, the human hand is strong enough to open a car door, electric is not needed nor wanted, and etc. When it is daylight savings in my 1970, I just reach over and twist the dial on my clock an hour - in a modern daily driver, you get out the 500 page manual, figure which of the ten radios you have, and then read thru five pages of how to change the clock. Now on my daily drivers I don't even bother, when an annoyed passenger gets in, I have them read thru the nonsense and set the time for me.
By the same token, the hammer I bought yesterday did not include instructions stating that I should not smack myself in the head, should I commence legal action against HD? As an engineer, I will not do business with a lawyer. And funny many of my friends who are lawyers lie about their profession for this vary reason. Anyway I agree with George. It is way too litigious of a world out there - someone hurt or broken down by the side of the road - I'm not stopping or doing anything for fear of being robbed or sued.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on September 14, 2018, 06:12:11 PM
Emergency lever along side the seat.
Same setup in the c6 Corvettes. They found an older guy dead in one a few years back as he was locked in it and couldn't get out. (dead battery, same thing as above)
Boggles my mind but I guess everyone has different capabilities and/or will to live.
That being said, I absolutely hate these buttons for entry/exit. Has just enough delay to spike my blood pressure and on older vehicles can be very difficult to work. Solution to a problem that didn't exist.
While I'm complaining I don't like fobs/push button start either. The ignition was always a great place to put your keys.
I agree, there is just no excuse. The owner should be responsible enough to know how to open the door when the electric mechanism fails.
The comment on "push button start" reminds me of a situation where I live (a high-rise condominium building.) One of our Owners in his early seventies, with poor hearing (wears "hearing aids") routinely gets out of his Lexus LS430 Sedan and leaves it with the engine running in the garage. I get called as on the Homeowners' Board of Directors, because a car is parked, locked, in the garage with the engine running and spewing out carbon monoxide. When I have talked to the Owner, he says, "I thought I held the button long enough--I got out and walked away, but could not hear the car running, and I guess I must not have held the button long enough to stop the motor." I would hate to think what may occur if he experienced sudden acceleration and wanted to cut off the engine! There's also the situation of the various gear selectors now in new vehicles, such as the latest generation of Cadillac XT5 (their best-selling SUV)--the gear selector does not follow the usual P-R-N-D-L pattern, and there are various buttons on the stick to engage the different gears. Is it complicating something unnecessarily?
I can relate to the ls430 story. I had one old enough to still have a key but on a few occasions when I was distracted, attempted to start it again when it was already running. It was that quiet and smooth.
Last night in Montgomery AL I drove our 2012 Grand Cherokee into the hotel parking garage and shut if off. Wanted to move it. Alas....my wife had the keys in her purse and was in our hotel room. I couldn't restart the engine or lock the Jeep. Finally was able to lock the doors mechanically except for the rear gate. No big deal but just BS. I hate all this electronic crap. Give me a darn key to insert into the ignition. Certainly not a life threatening situation. But I could have as easily driven to a gas station and been stranded. I know, I know. Keep the keys with oneself. Just saying......
Bob
As if this story isn't funny enough, sorry ITS FUNNY, some of the comments here have been priceless.
I can think of worse coffins than a new XLR...
Joey Kramer (drummer, Aerosmith) got trapped in his Ferrari when it was being fueled and caught fire. Electrical system fried and he couldn't open the door, with drummer's arms. So he kicked out the sun roof, with drummer's legs, and escaped to freedom before he was cooked along with the car, which was a total loss.
Let them try to sue GM. As GM's attorney and as part of discovery I'll demand a mental competency evaluation of the plaintiff. And I'll settle out of court offering a life time supply of Aricept and a 1967 Rambler.
\m/
Laurie
Boy, late to the party again.
From one who owns one of these XLR marvels, there are all manner of errors and misrepresentations in the article to just take it on face value - small point, but to set the stage right out the gate, the picture is not of a 2006 - sorry for the nit-pick.
I am sympathetic with the plight of the owner, but 14 hours is a bit much, and the victim ready to die (?), does sound a bit on the, let's lay the groundwork for a law suit.
And before you cast me as the calloused ol' a holiness - personally, I'm not a fan of those who do not take the responsibilities of their actions nor the resulting consequences - and play the powerless victim.
As with any other car, no matter how much engineering, or ingenuity goes into its design, incorporating the best intentions and safeguards, there will always be accidents, stuff goes wrong, and hind sight is always worth a couple of hundreds of thousands of dollars - to make it right.
Buy a lottery ticket or sue, no risk or downside, and who knows - maybe something good will come of it - what with contingency fee structures as they are.
The floor is yours, and carry millions in liability insurance.
Have fun,
Steve B.
Rule number one! Read the owners manual.
Rule number two! Keep the owners manual in the car!
You'd think at some point during his car ownership he would have wondered what that lever next to the door with the red symbol of the car with a door open on it did and pulled it.
We have become victims of advancement often due to the shallow edges of the gene pool.
Life itself is at a risk of dying or injury. It’s assumption of those risk that makes life worth living.
Half an owners manual anymore is operation of seat belts?
To its extreme, it will be the fault of automobile manufacturers because their engineering or lack there of, can too easily allow drunk people to operate them?
Think of all the automotive advancements of the past that could be brought for punitive damages today. Styling is yet another. All the things we appreciate most about our vintage cars of days gone by.
Specifically, Cadillac Tail fins were covered in ‘unsafe at any speed’, and indeed horrific cases were pointed out, thru no fault of the victims.
Hydraulic power windows, moreover operable with key off? Cruise control? Floor shifters, hidden fuel fillers, ...massaging seats encouraging sleeping drivers? Or a hypothetical 1949 case of a distracted driver using the radio?
ANY use of cell phone (even hands free) is a risk...but so is a passenger. Have you ridden with a driver that was so distracted by your presence you were clutching the door panel?
Look at the extreme HORSEPOWER available today, I see those days are very numbered
Tomorrow’s mega collectibles, maybe if we aren’t too dumb to possess them.
Have you noticed the increase of wrong way drivers?
Here’s where we are headed:
We won’t be able to advance any faster than the dumbest person can to taught to use it.
I think the whole concept of that type of door release is stupid.
They should have just left things as they were with a normal mechanical door release lever.
Soon, everything electronic WILL come back to bite us.
I can see it in the future. Look, cars come with actual keys, and the vehicle will be controlled by humans.
The Lawyers will be demanding it as they will be losing work if everything is automated.
As it is now, it will soon be a case where the vehicles' computer will be taken to court, and the Magistrate will see the results of before the crash, and immediately say, "Guilty as charged....... Plus, I find that the defendant was speeding on dates such and such, therefore. straight to gaol.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on September 14, 2018, 09:15:16 PM
You just cannot engineer all of any possible problem out of any system.
I cannot agree more. There is no such thing as foolproof regardless of how well thought-out, conceived or planned.
There is simply no excuse for not having comprehensive knowledge of the machine of which you're in command. It would be akin for taking a watercraft out to sea with a group of people and not knowing how to operate distress equipment or where the life jackets are. Unacceptable. Period.
Laurie, I have not heard that story. I have the same model Ferrari, the door handles are just regular mechanical, not electric. Locks are electric but have a regular up/down buttons on the tops of the doors, not sure why he would have been stuck in it.
No sunroof version, maybe his was gts? (Targa). In which case would be easier to unlatch than kick through.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on September 15, 2018, 09:16:19 AM
I cannot agree more. There is no such thing as foolproof regardless of how well thought-out, conceived or planned.
There is simply no excuse for not having comprehensive knowledge of the machine of which you're in command. It would be akin for taking a watercraft out to sea with a group of people and not knowing how to operate distress equipment or where the life jackets are. Unacceptable. Period.
You could be a passenger, or renting the car....
Quote from: WTL on September 15, 2018, 10:17:58 AM
You could be a passenger, or renting the car....
Could also be a passenger on a boat...
If you're unfamiliar with the car, you shouldn't be renting it.
Who thinks about emergency door procedures in a car? Boats can sink, so you prepare yourself for THAT contigency.
How many people are mechanically aware enough to even know that being locked in a car is possible? Not everybody is so inclined, or has the time, or any number of things.
Do you want all passengers to demand literature before they get in the car? Let's stop jumping through hoops here to excuse them, hate lawyers all you want, but the engineers screwed this one up.
These are the same years that GM designed a defective ignition switch that would turn off the car/power steering/brakes without warning. GM hemmed and hawed for years, blamed drivers for having too many keys on their chain, no...no, it was GMs fault. Somewhere around 100 people died. My wife had one of the cars. It happened to us, and we were ok, but if there had been traffic, it's a roll of the dice.
Was I supposed to be familiar with every component in a Saturn ion? To know modes of failure and immediately have the solution in mind?
Might as well have a flight attendant demonstrate emergency procedures for each remote contigency, every time a person gets in an unfamiliar car.
Or we could put in a mechanical lock, like we did for 100 years.
Sorry folks, this aggravates me.
WTL,
Agreed.
As an engineer, it really is impossible to design every possible issue out of anything, let alone something as complex as a modern car. I hate all the unnecessary wireless, electronic and etc. stuff too. On our 2014 Chrysler 300 the tilt steering is motorized - really? that can certainly be manual.
Knowing this (that nothing is truly safe), we must strive in life to not be victims. I check my bank and investment accounts twice daily and every six months or so I discover a theft, report it, and receive recovery. In a car, I always think about the power windows, as in the event of a water crash they will be shorted out - do I open them before being submerged (if I could) or do I leave them closed until submerged to slow the sinking process? Point is that you have to think about everything because life is just not fare.
Back to this case, there is no way a car could contain me. It is difficult to feel empathy, especially when all this amounted to was an inconvenience, albeit a little scary for the guy in the car.
Scot,
I have a great deal of respect for your abilities, knowledge and preparedness. I can see that in your fine 70 Cadillacs. I do not believe you would be trapped. I was in a BMW, but that window would have been broken...but I'm better than average.
The people on this board are tuned to knowing everything about our cars. In this way, WE are outliers. I think of all the people who know jack about how cars work. It is foreign to their nature. So with the door lock thing, we are sneaking a heretofore unknown hazard into the fold which might catch them...might kill them, as it did a guy in a C6. Are we really going to blame the guy?
Quote from: WTL on September 15, 2018, 11:23:59 AM
Might as well have a flight attendant demonstrate emergency procedures for each remote contigency, every time a person gets in an unfamiliar car.
Exactly what do you expect? Should every car must be designed to operate just like every other car because someone may not know how to operate something in it? Some cars have window switches on armrests; others on the center console while some don't even have power windows at all. The starter switch on a '60 Buick is activated by the accelerator pedal. A SAAB with a manual transmission must be placed in reverse to remove the key. On most Ford vehicles the interior door handle unlocks the door; for others, the door must be unlocked before the door can be opened...etc etc etc.
There are thousands of ways the operation of one car varies to the next for the thousands of makes and models across 100+ years of production. Sorry my friend, this is clear case of operator error here and there is no justification for owning a car with only partial knowledge of how to use it - especially of a control that is in plain sight, after years (presumably) of ownership.
I see people all the time cross the street and never seem to look both ways. I was a 5 year old and knew enough to do that.
People today seem so self absorbed and not aware of their surroundings as to be a danger to themselves and more importantly a danger to others.
If so, yes I will say it, let them die. I am all for punishing an intentional or negligent party, but if we use your standards everyone is going to stop producing any goods for public consumption.
Why bother producing products and creating jobs if the stupid and greedy get all their profits.
By the way only a tort lawyer would advocate for such positions because they are feeding at the trough.
And I am for fair punishment for the negligent or the criminal who puts greed before safety but life has risks, There is no such thing as a risk free world.
QUOTE: Who thinks about emergency door procedures in a car? Boats can sink, so you prepare yourself for THAT contigency.
“Who thinks†...That’s whats really at discussion here and when a problem arises...it’s somebody else’s fault or the equipment they are in control of.
Everything needs to be engineered or labeled so a single digit IQ can safely operate or abuse.
While, I’m not too excited about this electronic door latch...it’s the same spirit of innovation that brought us power windows and seats at the a touch of a button.
I absolutely agree WTL, this will be a losing battle for GM. The fix will be a large caution triangle riveted to each door panel with an arrow pointing to ‘emergency exit’
The fix is a mechanical latch.
This is how Gus Grissom died, btw.
Why isn't it the engineers responsibility to anticipate potential failures? Who is being irresponsible?
Why did the Teves 2 brake system go away? Yes, when in proper condition it did it's job, but failure, the little red brake light, came shortly before the brakes going flat out. If it happens going up a hill, no traffic, your fine. If it happens on the Washington beltway, 75 mph traffic, your dead.
Engineers bear responsibility. This is a big deal.
Quote from: WTL on September 15, 2018, 01:47:22 PM
The fix is a mechanical latch.
There are two of them.
Quote from: WTL on September 15, 2018, 01:47:22 PMWhy isn't it the engineers responsibility to anticipate potential failures?
They did.
Quote from: WTL on September 15, 2018, 01:47:22 PMEngineers bear responsibility.
And so does the owner!
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on September 15, 2018, 10:57:55 AM
If you're unfamiliar with the car, you shouldn't be renting it.
Not necessarily true. LOL I am very familiar with late model luxury cars.
A few years ago when I rented a new CTS I had to stop for gas. I knew enough to look at the gas gauge for the arrow pointing to which side the filler was on. I then opened the door and looked for the fuel door release button. None. I looked on the floor for a release lever. None. I looked at the dash for a button. None. I looked on the center console. Nothing. I looked in the glovebox for the owners manual. None of course. I walked back the fuel filler door to see if I could get my fingernail under the lip to pry it open. No luck. No notch to pull it open of course. As I stood there scratching my head a little old lady walked over and pushed one side of the filler door and it rotated open. I was so embarrassed. LOL
I got a kick out of the comment about the need for a flight attendant, and the single IQ comment was also on point (particularly in the face of lets hold everyone back with the dumb everything down concept = "no child left behind" and the cartoon - fiascos.
If you fly as much as I, the safety demo. and script is on most flights I have been on are ignored.
Also, asking people who sit in the emergency exit rows want to sit there - assuming they understand what to do if needed - is a joke.
remembering the rest of us are the Passengers (not the driver/pilot) relying on the BOZO who may or may not know what to do, and knows how to do it - oh! - there is also no guarantee that the person even knows how to read English (owner's manual) - is that not PC? - it's just for more leg room - no confirmed prerequisites required for all of our safety.
Have fun,
Steve B.
WTL,
I looked up Gus Grissom and he died in a fire in 1967 at NASA during a test simulation/flight. How are you drawing a comparison to the guy in the XLR? The XLR has a mechanical latch...and an electric one that operates by push button.
Before this topic came up, I remember seeing the new Lincoln Continental with the push button door openers, and the first thing that came to mind was what happens if the battery died, and then the next scene (it was a youtube video) they showed the emergency mechanical means to open the door.
As an engineer, I can assure you marketing or management instructed the engineer to make such a door design, they do not have this much influence.
BTW the speed limit on the Washington beltway is 55mph not 75 (in VA part of beltway 75mph is reckless driving). Accordingly, I try to stay under 74 mph.
So we got about a dozen people on this discussion, and the consensus is it is the 75 year old man's fault having to pick a side. A jury of 12 might go the same way, 1 for the guy and 11 against. You might not get selected in a jury because of your prior Saturn issues.
We all know a friend who insists on having a car with all the options yet doesn't use any of them because he doesn't know how to.
Climate control especially. I hate it when I see someone with it set for max heat or cold and the fan on max.
I sat in rear seat of the new Continental at the NY auto show and hit the button to get out several times without success before a friend standing outside let me out. It was un-nerving.
Easy fix in this day and age. With all of the computers on a car. IF a vehicle reaches a low battery state, the computer commands the door to unlock and stay unlocked until the battery reaches a charge state that is steady and timed, then go back to normal.
Bryan NAILED it... as an XLR owner, there are several scenarios that either lock you out or lock you in, and because there is no sensing computer to control what is permitted to occur regarding the battery state, one can get into the car with an "almost dead" battery, and then, as a consequence of trying to start it, get stuck in the car. Another personal observation--- the the XLR does NOT constantly remind you that you're driving an overpowered sports car. It's comfortable beyond imagination, and the ride is extraordinarily smooth... nothing sporting here--- a sedate, smooth as silk, comfortable ride that lulls one in feeling entirely comfortable with a technology trap that may be lurking, that you're not prepared to escape from. All this being said, I absolutely love this Cadillac Happy day, James
I can't remember whether or not it "happened to me," or not. But in 1941 Cadillac lore, there is a story of a filling station attendant who simply couldn't find the gas cap. (Or, open the hood.) Could these have been the "firsts" of the modern gadgets confounding people? (I was re-reading some of the posts and just happened to remember this snippet of useless information.)
I wanted to give it a couple days as I didn't want to overwork this thread.
Gus Grissom died with Roger Chaffee and Ed White because there was a fire in their
test capsule and there was no door handle that they can open from the inside, or at least that is my recollection.
If your teves 2 brake system goes out at 55 miles an hour on the interstate you might be dead too. Even worse you might take someone in a different car with you. Of course I appreciate that they were trying to get to ABS, so at least with those braking systems they had laudable goal in mind. for the most part they seem to have been reliable but I just don't get having one of the failure possibilities be look for a nice big soft bush to crash into.
I've already conceded that the legal case is weak. But the (moral) case in favor of not having a standard door mount mechanical latch is weak to non-existent. Fair to say that most people disagree with him suing over this? I can see that. My contention actually is less about the lawsuit and more about just wanting to curse people who install stupid features in cars that get other people in trouble. Even if it doesn't meet the legal standard of negligence it is just dumb.
I also understand that there is mechanical latch but obviously from the fact that somebody has died already and another guy could have died it is not intuitive to some people. Yea we all would have found it but we all are car guys.
It's okay to complain about the stupidity of GM without endorsing the finer legal aspects of a personal injury suit. By originally saying that I took his side I was not signaling that he was perfect, but I understood that there would be people like that who would get caught in that circumstance and who I have sympathy for.
Quote from: BJM on September 16, 2018, 07:02:44 PM
Easy fix in this day and age. With all of the computers on a car. IF a vehicle reaches a low battery state, the computer commands the door to unlock and stay unlocked until the battery reaches a charge state that is steady and timed, then go back to normal.
I'm not sure if having a car that unlocks itself and remains unlocked until the battery situation is remedied is a good solution either. However I do agree that many modern cars have way too many automated control systems.
As to the situation here, I think it would be a good idea if message appeared on the dash alerting the driver to the emergency release if exit is attempted while the battery is in a low charge state. Even a low battery should have enough power to illuminate a message board.
I asked my wife to read all these posts to get her spin on this issue.
Let me quickly add that although we have an XLR, she has never shown any interest in, or wanted to drive it.
My wife is much like Will Rogers - cool and level headed.
She concluded that "if it's your time to go - there is no way to avoid it - it's out of your hands, and into the hands of a higher power".
Have fun,
Steve B.
PS. I need to add this - if you want to hear GOD laugh - tell him your plans.
This may be a dumb question...but how did the neighbor open the door if the battery was dead and the owner had the key inside that opens the trunk manually???
Thats a very decent question.
The other thing that comes to mind I guess is, what if there is an accident that immobilizes the driver or kills the battery. I guess its the same as before, break the glass and do what you can. But instead of reaching to unlock the door, the good Samaritan will be pulling the guy out through a broken window.
My understanding is the neighbor went to check on the situation when he noticed the owner's garage door had still been open late in the evening. Emergency personnel had the driver release the hood and gave the battery a boost.
KISS is an acronym for "Keep it simple, stupid" as a design principle noted by the U.S. Navy in 1960. The KISS principle states that most systems work best if they are kept simple rather than made complicated; therefore simplicity should be a key goal in design, and that unnecessary complexity should be avoided. The phrase has been associated with aircraft engineer Kelly Johnson, lead engineer at the Lockheed Skunk Works (creators of the Lockheed U-2 and SR-71 Blackbird spy planes, among many others) The term "KISS principle" was in popular use by 1970. Variations on the phrase include: "Keep it simple, silly", "keep it short and simple", "keep it simple and straightforward","keep it small and simple" and "keep it stupid simple.
In my shop, used cars from the dealerships RARELY have the owner's manual in the car. A few years ago I bought a large box of brand new owner's/operator manuals from an employee of a motorcycle dealership at a swap meet. No glovebox or saddlebag, they did not reach the hands of the buyer or maybe the buyers did not want them,
If I were going to be locked in a Cadillac for 14 hours, I’d make sure it was a late 49’s Series 75. No point in being pinched for space.
In a modern jet aircraft cockpit, designed for ergonomics and safety, a pilot who has been trained, qualified and experienced in the type will have equipment engineered to be painted red, yellow and/or white with contrasting stripes to designate such things as emergency brake handle, emergency gear extension handle, emergency flap handle, emergency pitch trim, emergency egress handles and other such items.
Yet they paint this stuff Red! They paint it red.
Now, this Pilot, who has been trained in the operation of this equipment and basically lives in this environment and checks each of these and a hundred other things daily during preflight has the advantage in an emergency or abnormal situation.
I'm thinking the manual release handle should have been designed to be red, yellow or white to contrast with the interior.
It's that simple. It's a crappy design.
Quote from: wrench on September 18, 2018, 11:25:01 PM
I'm thinking the manual release handle should have been designed to be red, yellow or white to contrast with the interior.
I'm not so sure that would have made much difference in an unlit interior in a dark garage. In any case the emergency latch is located in plain sight every time the door is opened.
You'd be surprised how clueless certain members the general public can be. Customers continuously ask me why a car on the lot is "AS IS" when I make a point of putting a huge black checkmark in the "WARRANTY" box of the FTC Buyer's Guide window sticker with the AS IS box left blank. I even tried red ink & day glow colors with the same results. Finally I began crossing out the entire AS IS section, with the WARRANTY box checked - and even then, some people will still ask why the car is being sold as-is. ::)
Only two things are infinite- the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein.
👆 are you sure this is written correctly?
The spirit of ‘AS-IS’ is NO warrantee.
The emergency release is finished in a matching interior color...and If it were a fluorescent red it might cause pause at some point of casual entry making recall more probable within 14 hours of incarceration.
Quote from: V63 on September 19, 2018, 09:22:17 AM
👆 are you sure this is written correctly?
The spirit of ‘AS-IS’ is NO warrantee.
I think you need to reread the post.
QUOTE:
Customers continuously ask me why a car on the lot is "AS IS" when I make a point of putting a huge black checkmark in the "WARRANTY" box of the FTC Buyer guide.
Quote from: V63 on September 19, 2018, 09:33:49 AM
QUOTE:
Customers continuously ask me why a car on the lot is "AS IS" when I make a point of putting a huge black checkmark in the "WARRANTY" box of the FTC Buyer guide.
When the "WARRANTY" box is checked and the "AS IS" box is
not checked - explain how a logical person would conclude the car is being offered as-is based on the window sticker?
Quote from: V63 on September 19, 2018, 09:22:17 AM
The emergency release is finished in a matching interior color...and If it were a fluorescent red it might cause pause at some point of casual entry making recall more probable within 14 hours of incarceration.
Maybe, but it's not exactly in plain sight from the drivers point of view unless you know where to look for it.
I just don't understand what the upside is supposed to be with the electric button release? Couldn't be cost savings if the manual handles/cables still exist.
I like Eric's idea a lot-
"As to the situation here, I think it would be a good idea if message appeared on the dash alerting the driver to the emergency release if exit is attempted while the battery is in a low charge state. Even a low battery should have enough power to illuminate a message board."
I do see your point now. I modified the excerpt as follows👇
👇
You'd be surprised how clueless certain members the general public can be. Customers continuously assume a car on the lot is "AS IS" when I make a point of putting a huge black checkmark in the "WARRANTY" box of the FTC Buyer's Guide window sticker with the AS IS box left blank. I even tried red ink & day glow colors with the same results. Finally I began crossing out the entire AS IS section, with the WARRANTY box checked - and even then, some people will still assume the car is being sold as-is. ::)
👆
I guess the general public is conditioning that a used car is best assumed to NOT have a warrantee.
Probably not a bad thing vs. the alternative.
V63 and Eric,
I don't really get this "As-is" message either except to point out that much of the public is clueless on this subject of the original post. I agree the general public is clueless - point made, few would dispute this. And, as I get up there in years my patience for this has waned.
Anyway, our local CLC club discussed this subject too, and everyone pretty much agreed the 75 year old is at fault, and some were harsh about expressing their opinion. I'm sure that this is not the first time this has happened (2006 XLR) in a dozen years of a mass produced car made over a span of several years where battery life is generally 5 to 6 years and all of the batteries have died and been replaced in every XLR made to date. Yet we did not read about every "tragedy", as each owner suffered thru the inconvenience of discovering a dead battery. Most probably pulled the lever after their battery died, exited the car, called triple A, lost five minutes, and did not think much about it.
Sorry, my sympathy is zero on this one, except for perhaps the recipient of any bogus lawsuit the 75 year may file against them.
Quote from: V63 on September 19, 2018, 09:59:10 AM
I do see your point now. I modified the excerpt as follows👇
👇
You'd be surprised how clueless certain members the general public can be. Customers continuously assume a car on the lot is "AS IS" when I make a point of putting a huge black checkmark in the "WARRANTY" box of the FTC Buyer's Guide window sticker with the AS IS box left blank. I even tried red ink & day glow colors with the same results. Finally I began crossing out the entire AS IS section, with the WARRANTY box checked - and even then, some people will still assume the car is being sold as-is. ::)
👆
I guess the general public is conditioning that a used car is best assumed to NOT have a warrantee.
Probably not a bad thing vs. the alternative.
Change it back.
The issue is not that they "assume" the car is being sold as-is. It's that they will ask why the car is being offered as-is - when I approach them
after they've just read the window sticker clearly indicating the opposite.
And some
still continue to ask this even when the AS IS section is
crossed out entirely with a
big checkmark in the warranty box.
Quote from: INTMD8 on September 19, 2018, 09:49:03 AM
"As to the situation here, I think it would be a good idea if message appeared on the dash alerting the driver to the emergency release if exit is attempted while the battery is in a low charge state. Even a low battery should have enough power to illuminate a message board."
I tend to think this would help a lot, but I've seen, in conditions where a battery terminal is pretty loose, if you try to start the car for whatever reason the high amperage causes the connection to totally go away....So you try and start it, hear maybe a tap, and then all the lights go out and nothing works.
So, the hypothetical single digit IQ guy still gets stuck in the car for 14 hours.
And then there are car accidents, and the various issues that could arise out of one.
My STS would get stuck on stupid and refuse to start sometimes, but it never tried to lock me in.
If you buy a car, you should get to know how all of it operates.