OK, I left it sitting too long, probably 8 weeks. It cranks and tries to start but shuts off after 1-2 seconds.
I have it on a 15 amp charger to keep the battery from draining and only crank it for 4 seconds max. It will start after a couple seconds cranking, but will not stay running. Starting spray helps a bit (starts right away) but it still will not stay running.
Clogged fuel line or injectors?
Is there an easy way to clean the line and / or injectors without removing the entire top half of the engine??
I've only run Shell (top tier gas) in this car for a few years, but not the ethanol free Shell. I might start using that.
Get a fuel pressure tester on it and see what you. have key on, key off. post back
Are you sure the battery is in good shape? Was it below freezing during that 8 week period? Just wondering if maybe the battery froze and is now causing electrical issues now.
Is the security light acting different than normal? There were years that I think would stall for a security issue.
Fuel pressure is a good thought with a start but not stay running issue like this.
Hello Mike,
I have an LT-1 equipped Impala. I believe this is the same engine as is in your '96 Fleetwood. I had to replace the in-the-gas-tank fuel pump, and the fuel injector pressure regulator (at different times).
If you turn the key to the on position, you should be able to hear the in-tank fuel pump engage. It may only engage for a couple of seconds and then shut off if the computer does not see the engine start.
As Dave suggested, a fuel pressure gauge will indicate whether there is sufficient fuel pressure to supply the injectors. You can get a gauge at any auto parts store. On my LT-1, the test port is at the back of the fuel rail (awkwardly located near the firewall). Turn the key to the on position, and the fuel pump should pressurize the fuel rail and injectors with 25 or more pounds of pressure. Low pressure, or no pressure will probably keep the engine from starting.
Of course the problem may be something else, but if the engine fires immediately, using the starter fluid, I would suspect a fuel issue before suspecting an ignition issue.
Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter
Since it does start, probably is fuel. There could be a lack of cold
enrichment if the temp sensors have failed. This is the sort of
thing causing me to recommend permanently installing a modern,
electric sender fuel pressure gauge. This can quickly narrow down
the possibilities. Bruce Roe
It only gets Florida cold here - below 60, but almost never below 40. It was almost 90 the past few days.
It was the spark plugs.
I had bought a set earlier but didn't put them in.
After finishing the lawn with the car on the charger, the battery showed full, so I tried again, this time no starting spray. It tried to start almost instantly, but again, wouldn't stay running. SO I thought, let's pull one plug. They need changing anyway.
Man was it fouled up.
More than 2 hours later after scratching the hell out of my arms, I got the drivers side bank changed, and had my wife start it. It started right up. So I had her shut it off and got 3 of the 4 on the passenger side changed. The 4th, #2 is Very hard to get to, its under the alternator, so that one will have to stay for tomorrow.
Again it started right up, but now I have the check engine lit. Codes 122 and 130 on pointer # 1. Time to pull the service manual, but those are history codes, there were no current codes, but those might have been triggered earlier today. Code 126 on pointer # 2 was also lit. I think that is a Climate Control code, and it always shows as a history code, but that never lights the check engine light.
I'm going to get cleaned up and take it out for a 10 mile or so drive to warm it up - After putting some Shell Supreme in it.
The plugs in it were ACDelco 41943, probably the original plugs.
The ones I have are 41902
RockAuto has 4 platinum plugs for this car:
ACDELCO 41942 Professional; Double Platinum Info
Commercial Chassis; Gap .050
Part image
$4.74
Add to Cart
ACDELCO 41902 Professional; Double Platinum Info
Gap .060
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Part image
>
$4.74
Add to Cart
ACDELCO 41943 {#19244473} Professional; Double Platinum Info
FitsCommercial Chassis; Gap .050
OrGap .050; Original Equipment (Only 4 Remaining)
Part image
$4.74
Add to Cart
ACDELCO 41940 Professional; Double Platinum Info
Gap .050; Original Equipment
Every lookup shows the 41902s are good for the 1996 - perhaps a parts consolidation by GM? Anyway, I'm not scratching the hell out of my arms again to change them out...
It ran a little rough and the check engine light is still solid on or flashing even after I cleared those 2 codes and disconnected the battery and touched the neg cable to the positive post. That's supposed to clear everything.
After about 20 miles it ran a little better, maybe its trying to adjust to the new clean plugs. Still not as smooth as before though.
I might have pulled a wire when I had the middle part of the air passage from the air cleaner to the throttle body off while I was trying to start it earlier. Its too dark to check now.
Or I might have dirtied up the Mass Air Flow sensor with starting spray. Or something else...
And there are probably dozens of codes that do NOT show up on the 1996's climate control diagnostic panel.
Who can recommend one of those OBD II scan tools that interfaces with a phone or computer??
That would be handy, because the Fleetwood's diag panel is really just an OBD I type of diagnostic aid. The instructions are almost identical to the ones ni the 1995 service manual and that was OBD I. The 1996 service manual does have all the bazillion codes in it, but how to dig them out??
And my arms are reminding me of a Ted Nugent song; Cat Scratch Fever. >:D
Quote from: cadillacmike68It only gets Florida cold here - below
60, but almost never below 40. It was almost 90 the past few days.
It was the spark plugs.
Man was it fouled up.
Glad you found it, must have never been driven farther than the store.
I have driven plugs past 100,000 miles with widening gaps, but not
fouled.
I have experienced 0 deg F in northern FL. Bruce Roe
Bruce, I'm pretty sure these had the full 107,000 miles on them, i.e. never changed. The change interval was 100,000 mi.
I used to get around in this car a lot. I racked up 35,000 miles since Feb 2011 when I bought it. It Never failed to start.
The last several months I had not been driving it much - trying to not run up the miles, but from now on, it will be a 10-20 mile trip every 2-3 weeks just to keep it exercised.
Still looking for a recommendation on a good OBD II kit that connects to a phone or computer...
Now it's time for dinner, a superb rib eye steak and sauteed squash & asparagus.
Mike, when I had my 94 I remember what a PITA job it was to change out the plugs and wires. The original AC plugs were in their too, but instead of going with the same plugs, I went with NGK’s Platinums and the engine ran so much smoother where I could barely notice the idle.
NGK’s seem to work in everything, and because their plugs are still made in Japan, their quality of plugs is always top notch. Plus I like the V-Power tip design it gives for a better spark.
Quote from: 64CaddieLacky on February 17, 2019, 09:32:28 PM
Mike, when I had my 94 I remember what a PITA job it was to change out the plugs and wires. The original AC plugs were in their too, but instead of going with the same plugs, I went with NGK’s Platinums and the engine ran so much smoother where I could barely notice the idle.
NGK’s seem to work in everything, and because their plugs are still made in Japan, their quality of plugs is always top notch. Plus I like the V-Power tip design it gives for a better spark.
GM Only for my cars. Unless it's not available. The 41-902 is a double platinum plug. This is not the first time I changed plugs in a Fleetwood. But it Always SUCKS.
Man that rib eye was GREAT. And it was only 5.50 per lb. 8)
there not their. Grammar police interruption. :P
Even the 1968 is easier (except for # 7, Climate Control gets in the way).
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on February 17, 2019, 10:35:31 PM
GM Only for my cars. Unless it's not available. The 41-902 is a double platinum plug. This is not the first time I changed plugs in a Fleetwood. But it Always SUCKS.
Man that rib eye was GREAT. And it was only 5.50 per lb. 8)
there not their. Grammar police interruption. :P
Hey now!! I’ve had a few drinks tonight lol.
A rib eye steak sounds so good, I just got back from Claim Jumpers with my GF, and I had the widow maker burger so I’m just as stuffed ;D
Back to the main topic, I feel like certain AC plugs aren’t made like they used to. And some part numbers, you’ll see that many now are made in China. Mexico and mostly China to be exact, but hardly U.S. anymore.
But hey if it works it works, and that’s all that matters. 8) ;)
Quote from: 64CaddieLacky on February 17, 2019, 11:35:48 PM
Hey now!! I’ve had a few drinks tonight lol.
A rib eye steak sounds so good, I just got back from Claim Jumpers with my GF, and I had the widow maker burger so I’m just as stuffed ;D
Back to the main topic, I feel like certain AC plugs aren’t made like they used to. And some part numbers, you’ll see that many now are made in China. Mexico and mostly China to be exact, but hardly U.S. anymore.
But hey if it works it works, and that’s all that matters. 8) ;)
Yeah, a lot of stuff isn't as good as it used to be, but I've never had problems with ACDelco plugs.
I had a few too!
OK back to business.
The 122 and 130 are CCM (pages 1C-12 and 8D-18 in the service manual) codes, NOT OBD II codes and they likely were tripped when I was feverishly twisting the key to try and get the car to start. They have not returned to the Climate Control diag display, but the check engine is still on. I'll have to take it to auto zone and have them read the codes for me, since I don't have an OBD II scan tool. I hope I didn't dirty up the MAF sensor.
Good to know about NGK plugs!
Ya that was a fun engine. They yanked it right out of the Corvette and dropped it into these other cars. Would have been nice if they undid some of the design features that were there just to fit under that sleek hood.
I seem to remember the 100k service on these engines was significant. Back when I was buying them it seemed like most needed that service. I think back when you were talking dealer parts it was over $1000 in parts. Among the parts that needed to be done was the optispark distributor and the water pump. Did they also want the injectors changed? When I was looking it was a big deal because they were 10 year old cars that were only worth a couple thousand so needing a thousand in service was kinda a deal breaker.
Mike,
That engine was designed to run on ethenal gas, that is not an issue. You may want to change the in-line fuel filter between tank and engine. Also, at 130k miles or so my 1995 RWD Fleetwood fuel pump failed, changing that may be a good idea. Spark plugs were good to 100k miles, so good that you changed them.
I bought one of those blue tooth scan tools and it was worthless.
Jake
I've been reading on the scan tools. It seems that Innova, Actron and Autel are the best. all US companies too.
Hey, auto zone and o'reiley's will scan for free and I can reset as needed.
There's a little dohickey on the curved elbow going into the throttle body, and I'm sure that got starting fluid sprayed on it. I tried cleaning it with MAF cleaner, and I cleaned the MAF as well, still got the light, so off to the parts store.
I changed the water pump a couple years ago. Not sure on the opti, but I think I changed all the wires.
Filter and pump, they usually give plenty of warning before failure. I've had a few GMs of this era. Sender would be replaced at the same time.
Injectors should not need replacing unless they are hopelessly FUBAR'd.
My 1995 RWD Fleetwwood gave me very little trouble and the only issues were the fuel pump died without any warning, and one of the two radiator fan motors failed at 225k miles. Other than that routine maintenance, and the car ran perfect at 254k miles when I sold it in 2005 with original drivetrain. The majority of the mileage was highway, and my tires always lasted 70k miles.
I too have heard those scan too brands are decent and I believe they all have models near or under $100. The real question is what do you expect the tool to do? Just reading codes? They pretty much all do that, that was part of the government mandated OBD2 standard. Features I would look for is the ability to read live data and freeze data.
Live data is just that, you can go through some menus and look up say the coolant sensor and monitor its readings. That can be very handy for troubleshooting especially as things get old. You can have a lot of issues that are not bad enough to actually trip a dead or disconnected sensor code but may be feeding bad info to the computer. You can just scroll through various sensors and maybe catch something that seems unusual which may lead you to the problem.
Freeze data I also believe came with OBD2. When a code is set it will also grab a snapshot of the live data at the time. How many things it grabs may depend on the tool and or the car in question. They all seem to give you basics like coolant temp and vehicle speed. That info can really help narrow down issues if you know what else was going on at the time.
Other features you can get is the ability to interface with sub modules like ABS systems. Depending on the year make and model you may also get the ability to turn off oil change and other maintenance warnings.
The next level up get you the ability to run various tests on various systems. Things like manually operating the valves in the evaprative emissions systems or do a bleed on the ABS would be examples. Maybe run the fuel pump to prime the system? Stuff like that.
The highest level on newer stuff will actually let you go in and modify parameters. This level tends to be make and model specific. You can often get into the body module and change things like how many times the turn signal blinks as well as things like shift points.
I have a tool that connects via USB to a PC running an app. I paid almost $300 for it and for that it doesn't do much more than a $75 tool. It actually does it poorly because you have to have the computer and its just flaky. The reason I bought it was you could buy what was supposedly the factory option packages to get deep into things. Last year I had issues with one of my trucks and bought the 96-2016 GM package for another few hundred. It works but I would not recommend it.
When I recently bought the non running 90 CDV I was in need of an tool for that because it definitely had computer issues. I found a used OTC Genesis system locally for I think $300. As far as I can tell it will do 81-2005ish American and Asian cars. It was the kind of tool that was popular with non dealer type shops. You do have to do your research with those types of tools because some require subscriptions or modules to work so if you see one listed much cheaper than the rest be suspicious. I now use this tool more than the expensive one. I only have one car newer than 05 and its German and still under warranty.
I also prefer a self contained tool rather than something that has to connect to a computer. It can be a real hassle if you need to drive the car to catch a problem. Maybe something that connected to a phone would be OK since I have that anyway but the big pro brands don't seem to offer that.
And I forgot to add when talking specifically about the 96 LT1 engine I would think the best place to look for info would be F body (Firebird Camaro) forums. Since that was the last year for Cadillac and it was only one model and the only OBD2 version I would not expect a lot of info that is Cadillac specific or that Cadillac did anything that special compared to other GM's. When that was a popular Corvette engine they were still OBD1's. I think it was Firebird that got it first and they had an oddball hybrid system that was not really OBD1 or OBD2.
The OBD II code is P0300 - Random Misfire.
I think I didn't get all the wires on snugly. I brought to a shop, so they can install the last one on cylinder # 2 - too hard to get to and my arms are actually worse than yesterday. They will also check plug tightness and properly seat all the wires.
I'll look at scan tools and will probably get one soon.
TJ - yes I want one that has live data and freeze frame, because this is mentioned in the service manuals. I'll look up that genesis.
I was thinking of one that connects to a computer - I'm a computer sw engineer, but it can get cumbersome. The newer ones can WiFi or Bluetooth to a phone, which is more convenient.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 18, 2019, 01:40:51 PM
And I forgot to add when talking specifically about the 96 LT1 engine I would think the best place to look for info would be F body (Firebird Camaro) forums. Since that was the last year for Cadillac and it was only one model and the only OBD2 version I would not expect a lot of info that is Cadillac specific or that Cadillac did anything that special compared to other GM's. When that was a popular Corvette engine they were still OBD1's. I think it was Firebird that got it first and they had an oddball hybrid system that was not really OBD1 or OBD2.
The 1996 Fleetwood and roadie & caprice / impala were real OBD II vehicles, and the P0300 confirms it because I can feel it missing.
I cannot find an old wire set order for this car in my records, (found one for the 68) so I'm getting a wire set as well.
A basic obd11 code reader is cheap. Good thing to have for any 96 up car, of course bcm codes are unavailable.
I'm thinking of getting one of those level 3 Innovas, the 3160g, if I can find a reasonable price on one.
I have an Innova 3160 OBD2 and ABS code reader. I also have a blue tooth reader that connects to my cell phone with the Torque app. I keep that one in the glove compartment of my truck in case I need it for someone else’s car. They both work well and record and playback live data. They are really essential for working on the newer cars, on a par with getting the factory shop manual.
I would really like to get the GM tool the dealers use. They can change settings, run test and more. But they run about $5000 for a used one.
Glen, the newest Innova 3160g also has a bluetooth capability. Yeah a Tech II would be nice but WAY too expensive.
TECH 2 is/was the official GM tool and is one of the ones you have to be careful with. I'm no expert on them but have read about a lot of horror stories about people paying good money for them and ending up a tool that really doesn't work as expected because something is missing. That is also one that is counterfeited. Some of the counterfeits do have some functionality and others don't. Sounds like many of the counterfeit ones are basically the $50 code readers in a TECH 2 looking case.
Be very careful with the purchase of any scan tool. The universe of these tools is divided into two basic types: scan only (unidirectional) and bidirectional.
Unidirectional instruments are the least expensive and most popular. They allow reading of first level set codes for most OBDI and OBD II US conforming vehicles. They also allow limited erasure of first level set codes fom the ECM. More expensive versions allow real time views of sensor inputs to the vehicle’s ECM depending on compatibility with the scan tool. Most have DTC definitions contained in a library for conveinent reference. These instruments satisfy or exceed the majority of the needs of the average DIY approach to maintenance and repair. They are essential for the DIYer and allow the use of ECM information to assist diagnosis and repair..
Bidirectional scanners are sophisticated and expensive. They allow two way communication with the powertrain and body control modules and use proprietary vehicle manufacturer software. They allow very in depth interrogation of vehicle electronic management systems and can be used to remotely activate sensors and actuators to evaluate their status and function. Graphing software allows minute analysis of sensors and their circuits. They also report staggeringly accurate and complete historical data on the vehicle’s operation and performance. This is absolutely essential for manufacturers’ determination of warranty liability and safety/emissions compliance. The most commonly used of these instruments for GM vehicles is branded as the Tech 2. The genuine article is made by Vertronix and retails in excess of $5000. Foreign knockoffs abound and DO NOT have the features of the real unit but are made to look identical to it. Buyers beware.
I'm not getting a Tech 2, don't need it, but I probably will get the full featured Innova or its Actron or Autel equivalent.
I don't need a built in library of DTC explanations, although they are nice to have, right there in the tool. I have the 2-3 volume service manuals for that.
Had a shop change Cylinder 2 for me. Cylinders 7 and 8 were the misfire culprits. I didn't have those boots on all the way.
Its running smooth as a top now.
I'll hold onto the new wires and coil until they go bad. There is usually plenty of warning for the wires and the coil can just go in the trunk until it is needed - like the power pull-down for the trunk which is there now.
As an aside, apparently ACDELCO now makes a new opti distributor for the LT1s again. For a while, quality opti distributors were nearly impossible to find.
Now if I can only stop backing into the fence while putting it away at night...
Quote from: TJ Hopland on February 18, 2019, 08:14:26 AM
I seem to remember the 100k service on these engines was significant. Back when I was buying them it seemed like most needed that service. I think back when you were talking dealer parts it was over $1000 in parts. Among the parts that needed to be done was the optispark distributor and the water pump. Did they also want the injectors changed? When I was looking it was a big deal because they were 10 year old cars that were only worth a couple thousand so needing a thousand in service was kinda a deal breaker.
It's precisely THIS that always kind of scared me away from buying what otherwise seemed to be a great Cad, the 90s Broughams.. especially the LT-1 engine-equipped ones... and the '96s being OBD-II (which some states still require emission tests for). I'm sure that all that HP is a blast to have 'on tap'... but the '90 through '93 ones have less expensive maintenance (i.e., no Opti-Spark)..
and Chevy engines... which are so much better than the doggy Olds 307s.
Most of my miles were put on a 93. Always wanted one with an LT1. When I finally got a 96 when it was running right which didn't seem to happen often I really didn't think the performance was much different especially considering that everything about the 96 seem to be more complicated and cost more.