I've had my 56 for close to 25 years now. It was, and still is, for the most part in rough shape body wise. Its not rusted, except for a small part of the floor, just beat up some. I found it just a mile north of the Mexican border here in Arizona.
It wasn't running, in fact the engine and transmission came separately in the bed of my truck. The engine wasn't even the correct one. A PO had installed a 62 390 at some point in time, and the owner I got it from had removed it and was trying to install a small block Chevy and 700R4 transmission. I ended up with both engines and transmissions.
I had a 472 from a previous parts car that I rebuilt and hadn't used yet, and since I didn't have an original engine for a 56, I decided that I would use the 472 when the time came to restore the car.
For 20 years I had just been collecting the parts I needed to complete the project, and waiting for the time to be able to do it.
Some health issues have slowed me down, but I'm too stubborn (some say too stupid) to let it stop me. After 5 back surgeries and a pair of (now broken) 12" rods in my back and a plate in my neck, I'm still trying to do what I love, work on and drive a real car. Getting under one is not very easy anymore, but not impossible. I try to do as much as I can while I'm upright because of it. I gotta remember to have all the parts and tools I'm gonna need all laid out before I get under the car.
But back to the car now, I started working on it about 2 1/2 or 3 years ago, I don't recall exactly. I didn't think to document any of the work. I wish now that I had, but what's done is done.
I began with the seat adjuster. I went completely thru the seat adjuster, as it was locked up. I blasted what would fit in my cabinet, and sanded what wouldn't. I then rebuilt the motor and solenoids, and I rewired the whole unit and then painted it. It works as good as it looks now.
From there I started on the dash. I disassembled the gauge cluster and went thru each part one by one. I polished up the chrome and painted what needed it. Now all the gauges look and work great. Having a second gauge cluster from my parts car was a big help. Besides being a source of parts if necessary, it was a reference tool if I needed it. Fortunately for me all of the gauges worked fine. Then I did the same for the spare cluster. Afterward I boxed them up until I'm ready to assemble the car.
Next I began on the radio. I have 3 of these, all of them the Wonderbar radio. I tested each of them before I started to clean and repair them. Two worked but the signal seeking feature didn't. The third one would turn on but nothing more.
So I started on the best looking one first, disassembled it and cleaned it up. I figured out what was wrong with the signal seeking mechanism and corrected it, and it works perfectly. I will say that if you are bench testing an old tube style radio, it's absolutely necessary to use larger test leads than you could with a newer radio. It will still turn on if you use say 16 gage wire, but it doesn't carry enough amperage for the seeker system to function correctly. I found that out the hard way when I was chasing gremlins. Once I got some 12 gage out it worked great.
I inspected it closely for any bare wires as almost every wire in it is cloth covered with a really thin plastic coating under it. They all looked good so I didn't replace any of them.
With more confidence I then started on the radio that would only turn on . It wasn't in as good of shape as the wiring insulation was falling apart. I decided to completely disassemble it and replace every wire in it. Before I started though, I drew out a diagram of the radio and numbered every connection in it, gave each component a number, and made a legend to help me keep everything in order, since I didn't have any schematics of the radio in any of my books.
As Mr. Murphy would have it, my wife found some schematics and some service bulletins for sale online AFTER I had drawn out the complete radio and had it completely disassembled. But that gave me all the information I needed to do the job.
I really wish now that I'd had this phone back then to take pictures and videos of the stuff I've done so far. I had resisted getting one for years, seeing them as an electronic leash and a pain in the neck to use from trying my wife's phone occasionally, and not having any experience with the phone, you can imagine my misgivings.
I finally didn't have a choice though as my trusty old flip phone finally gave up the ghost, I gave in and got one.
I did show off the radios to family and friends. Never having had a Wonderbar radio in any of my other classics I was thrilled with them when I got them to work.
These pics are of the radio that I completely disassembled and rewired and my notes and diagrams. I'll post pics of the one that I didn't have to rewire when I can find the box it's in. Everything I've rebuilt has been put in boxes until I'm ready to start reassembling the car.
More to follow when I have the time.
Rick
Thanks for posting Richard-- I own two of that year, and loved and really miss them-- alas, they were daily drivers and the rust mites took them off of the road. Would enjoy seeing picture psotings of your work. Happy day, James
So as I disassembled the dash, I continued to rebuild the pieces. I went thru the clock, repairing the electrical parts that typically go out after years of use. The contacts are usually the problem with them. They become corroded over time and either won't conduct electricity, or only enough to chatter until they burn out the coils or points.
Since I had three of them, I went through all three. Then I set them all up on a table and just let them run and I adjusted them to keep the time correctly.
I took the one that performed the best and put the best chrome and lens on it, then did the same to the others.
Now I've got three good clocks for my car. Unfortunately one doesn't look all that good. The parts car it came out of was apparently the home of a stray cat, who had marked his territory quite well. If you're unaware of what cat urine can do to chrome, well let's just say it's not kind.
I did the same thing for the dash trim, using the best for the car, the rest as backups.
I had to remove the old paint that GM put on the trim as some had either flaked off or been scratched off, or in the case of the 3rd piece, it was "pissed" off. (No pun intended).
I tried a couple of different ways to repaint them. I started with a small brush, but that didn't work very well. I then tried spray paint on it. It's more even than a brush, but it gets all over the part.
I had to scrape the paint off of the high spots by hand to get the original look. That took forever. After three of the sets, I figured I had enough.
Two of them I repainted the original black, but just to see how it would look, I did the third one with a cream white color. I liked it, but my wife didn't. The "Boss" wins, and the white one went into the spare parts box. The one the cat ruined I didn't even try.
Even with having 2 cars myself, and having stripped another, and finding some stuff at swap meets, I don't have enough parts to complete more than one dash assembly, thus the odd number of spares. But it's good to have spares, just in case.
Another part I went thru were the headlight switches. From the 4 of them I had, 2 were for fog lamp cars, which mine has. I took them apart and cleaned and greased them, checked the circuits and rheostats, and had 3 out of 4 good switches.
I still have to do the dash panel and the top as well, but all the stuff on or in it is done.
I decided to totally rewire it as well. I didn't want to have to buy all of it though because of the cost. I've had lots of experience making new harnesses, so that didn't worry me.
To get the harness exactly like the original, I started by disassembling the original one wire by wire and copying it with new connectors. As I did this, I would lay it out and tie it together until I had a complete harness. Once it was all laid out, it was just a matter of wrapping it up.
I was surprised to see how they did the harnesses back then. You get the one main harness that all cars get, then as they added options, they'd add the harness.
Mine has 1, the main, 2, the A/C, 3, the radio rear speaker, 4, the trunk release, 5, the trunk pulldown, 6, the taillamps, 7, the fog lamps, 8, the autronic eye, and I think that's it. Gotta get the box out with the harnesses in it and double check that now.
Oh yeah, #9, the dome lamp harness. Now the dome and taillamp harnesses are made separately but are still part of the main one.
Anyway, that's part of what I've done so far. If anyone's interested, I'll continue with more pictures as well.
Rick,
Well that is a winter project for sure better to be in a warmer area working on your toys, then in a cold garage. ;D
I just did a complete re-cap on my spare radio and amplifier not an easy task trying to fit the now new smaller ones into the large area the older one where, just adding large pig-tails. I’ve also did an AM alignment and will be replacing the vibrator with a new solid state I’ve made and fitted inside the old can.
Next will be the one on the car but in the meantime, I’m getting the Autronic amplifiers a few spare ones and the one on the car re-cap as well and getting the vibrator made just for these since they are different.
Fun fun for sure..! :)
Next will be the one on the car but in the meantime, I’m getting the Autronic amplifiers a few spare ones and the one on the car re-cap as well and getting the vibrator made just for these since they are different.
Fun fun for sure..! :)
[/quote]
Yes! Loads of fun! I've spent many a day and night in the shop working on this stuff. But I love doin' it!
And yes, I'd like to see your mods. I didn't get into how I did my autronic eye yet, but if I remember right, it has a 12AU7 tube, or something like that, in the system too. It struck me a little strange as that's the same one used in the radio.
My system I had to piece together from two different cars. My Sedan Deville had everything in it except for the eye itself. But I got really lucky though, years prior to getting the Sedan I found a dash top with the eye still on it for 20 dollars at a swap meet. It was the only part that the guy had for a Cadillac. I bought it just because it was a Cadillac part, not really expecting to get a whole system someday.
Long story short, I put the two together and tested it on my shop bench in the dark, using a small flashlight as the oncoming vehicle headlights, and it worked perfectly.
I've since rewired the whole thing as it was brittle and stiff. I didn't want to risk it shorting out. The hardest part was getting the shielded wire figured out, as the shielding doesn't actually connect between the eye and the control box if memory serves. I didn't realize that it used voltages up to 600 AC, thus the shielding.
It's a very cool setup for the time. I was suitably impressed to say the least.
You say you're replacing the original vibrator with an electronic unit? Are you making that yourself?
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 14, 2020, 09:11:33 PM
And yes, I'd like to see your mods. I didn't get into how I did my autronic eye yet, but if I remember right, it has a 12AU7 tube, or something like that, in the system too. It struck me a little strange as that's the same one used in the radio.
Yes they used the standard 12AU7 although the original one has the Guide with the 5943333 stenciled over it making hard to see. ??? The 12AU7 is a general amplifier commonly use then and even today in some high end audio equipment.
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 14, 2020, 09:11:33 PM
Long story short, I put the two together and tested it on my shop bench in the dark, using a small flashlight as the oncoming vehicle headlights, and it worked perfectly.
Yes that is simple test ;) , the Autronic-Eye tester is just a box with the controls and the meter to adjust the intensity of the light bulb inside to calibrate the “DIM and HOLD†controls on the amp. I have several ones that I was able to refurbished and now stacked on my shelves.
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 14, 2020, 09:11:33 PM
I've since rewired the whole thing as it was brittle and stiff. I didn't want to risk it shorting out. The hardest part was getting the shielded wire figured out, as the shielding doesn't actually connect between the eye and the control box if memory serves. I didn't realize that it used voltages up to 600 AC, thus the shielding.
It's a very cool setup for the time. I was suitably impressed to say the least.
Yes that is a DENGEROUS box the voltage can reach close to 800V AC out to the phototube. :o
It is funny that a similar setup is coming back on newer vehicles commonly known as “adaptive headlights†on some GM models. ;)
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 14, 2020, 09:11:33 PM
You say you're replacing the original vibrator with an electronic unit? Are you making that yourself?
Yes, I made one for the radio and fitted inside the same can as the old mechanical one (see P1150144.JPG) just need a bit of refinement on the label. I’ve use this one during the AM calibration on the spare radio, will try to make one more for the one on the car.
I just got the replacement caps for the working radio so now I need to go over these and mark which side is the “foil sideâ€, the new ones are not marked as they did with the older wax paper caps.
I know that solid state vibrators are available but I like to tinker around, and for about $18 on parts and a few hours I could not pass the opportunity.
For the Autronic-Eye amplifier I had a few spare caps and made this board with the capacitors that are strapped on top of the transformer, had to use two in parallel for the .06mf with the ones on-hand. See attach pictures P1120140.JPG board mounted and P1150145.JPG just the board, the capacitor on the side goes under the 12AU7 socket.
As a tinkerer who engage in vacuum tube analog technology way back in the 1950's, it was possible for someone with my limited brain power to figure such circuitry out, and then enjoy fixing broken items by replacing suspect parts. The dawn of integrated, transistorize printed circuits ended my explorations and conquests. Now when a control circuit board in a appliance fails, it winds up in the land fill. James
Quote from: James Landi on January 15, 2020, 09:03:51 AM
As a tinkerer who engage in vacuum tube analog technology way back in the 1950's, it was possible for someone with my limited brain power to figure such circuitry out, and then enjoy fixing broken items by replacing suspect parts. The dawn of integrated, transistorize printed circuits ended my explorations and conquests. Now when a control circuit board in a appliance fails, it winds up in the land fill. James
James,
How true true you are, we are leaving on a disposable era cheaper to buy new than to fix and refurbished what is broken. That is why we Cadillac folks are a dying bread since we are old fixer uppers. ;D
Hello Jose, James and Rick. You would think the "greenies" would encourage a more fixer upper society. You know, their saying "reduce, re-use, recycle", but as a society we throw away too much. Yes, this is a disposable society era. I always try to fix an item first, before tossing it. Working on my Cadillac I never throw anything out. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: lexi on January 15, 2020, 10:21:27 AM
Hello Jose, James and Rick. You would think the "greenies" would encourage a more fixer upper society. You know, their saying "reduce, re-use, recycle", but as a society we throw away too much. Yes, this is a disposable society era. I always try to fix an item first, before tossing it. Working on my Cadillac I never throw anything out. Clay/Lexi
Clay,
;D that is why my wife and kids do not understand the both tell me "why keep old stuff that you will never going to used..! " and I keep telling them "Well not today but eventually I'll..!" ;)
I totally agree Jose. Tell your wife & kids that we all feel that they are extremely lucky to have you...!!! ;D Clay/Lexi
I'm glad to have this chorus of encouraging (older) men singing the praises of discipline, determination, and a "can do" philosophy. I kept my 83 Eldorado going until it reached 317,000 miles in 2013, in part to prove to myself and others (willing to listen) that a good car, well maintained is money in the bank. I described myself as Detroit's worse nightmare, (but then, I finally "folded" and treated myself and Mrs. Landi to the most extraordinary car I've ever driven, my 2007 XLR which has ZERO user serviceable components.
Quote from: lexi on January 15, 2020, 10:21:27 AM
Hello Jose, James and Rick. You would think the "greenies" would encourage a more fixer upper society. You know, their saying "reduce, re-use, recycle", but as a society we throw away too much. Yes, this is a disposable society era. I always try to fix an item first, before tossing it. Working on my Cadillac I never throw anything out. Clay/Lexi
Yup!! I've never had a new car in my life. One, I can't afford it, two, too damned fugly, and three, I'm doing my part to recycle.
That's my contribution to the environment!!
This throw away society is only fueled that much more by companies like "Chinamart", I mean Walmart, and "Koreamart", Kmart.
Car companies are just as bad anymore.
Rick
Quote from: James Landi on January 15, 2020, 09:03:51 AM
As a tinkerer who engage in vacuum tube analog technology way back in the 1950's, it was possible for someone with my limited brain power to figure such circuitry out, and then enjoy fixing broken items by replacing suspect parts. The dawn of integrated, transistorize printed circuits ended my explorations and conquests. Now when a control circuit board in a appliance fails, it winds up in the land fill. James
James, I'm not an electrical engineer or even an electrician, but I did take a class when I was in high school, decades ago. I had kept the book, which was printed in the 50's or early 60's, and I would refer to it now and then over the years. I used it when I was working on the radios last year.
I do agree with you too about the garbage that's made today. Its all disposable. Nobody makes stuff to last anymore. Even things that aren't complicated are not repairable anymore.
That's why I love classic vehicles so much. And I think that someone who repairs and/or restores one is the ultimate environmentalist regardless of what anyone else thinks.
Don't give up!!! Keep a classic running.
Rick
Another thing I've been restoring is the factory A/C unit. I did this one earlier last year. Like alot of stuff, I've got 3 of these as well. I wanted to use the original A/C just because of the cool factor, (pun intended).
I went through the whole unit, cleaning and painting it, and rebuilding/rewiring the fan motors.
I had to fabricate the rubber seal that goes between the trunk unit and the divider behind the rear seat. I couldn't find one of them anywhere.
I also had to make a new back seat/trunk divider panel as the original one disintegrated when I tried to remove it.
Out of the 3 units, I only had 1 of the incoming air temp sensors that was somewhat useable. They are a complicated control and I'm still not sure if I've got it completely figured out yet. It's got a dual heating wire element that wraps around the capillary tube that heats the tube slightly when the A/C control on the dash is in a given position.
I'll have to read up on it again to be able to explain it better here.
Anyway, the weak link in the system as far as I can tell is the heating wires. Two of my sensors had both sides burned out, the third one has one side out. I'm still kicking around ways to rewire it to get the system to work like it was designed to work. I've tried several different wires from various other parts but none of them have the right resistance values, and none had insulation thick enough to insulate yet thin enough to allow the heat to warm the capillary tube.
The biggest problem with this sensor is how they installed the heating wire on the sensor. Besides being wrapped around the exposed part of the tube, it's also wound around the base of the tube right at the diaphragm that expands and contracts the internal controls of the sensor, and it was originally coated with a ceramic type material.
The ceramic material helped to insulate the wire and keep the heat around the tube base and the diaphragm.
The problem with this wire is finding more with the right resistance AND with the right kind of wrapping/insulation on it as well.
As I said earlier, there are two circuits on this heater wire. When you set the A/C dash control to max, both sides of the heating circuit are energized to help keep the sensor from icing if I remember correctly.
Then if you slide the control to a warmer setting, it disconnects one side of the heated wire, so the capillary tube can better detect to the incoming air temperature and act as a cycling switch so that the inside air isn't too cold.
There's also a evaporator temp sensor with a capillary tube that inserts into the core to cut power to the compressor if the core gets too cold. It keeps the core from icing up.
Anyway, here's some pictures of the A/C unit and the incoming air ducts.
I've still gotta find where I put the A/C dash control and take some pictures of it.
The last two pictures here are of the rubber ducts that go from the fans to the rear package shelf outlets.
I'd like to know if these are available anywhere. Mine are not useable as they have hardened with time and broke when I took them out.
I've not been able to figure out how to fabricate something that would work for these yet.
If anyone has a suggestion I would sure appreciate it.
Rick
Quote from: J. Gomez on January 15, 2020, 08:11:28 AM
Yes they used the standard 12AU7 although the original one has the Guide with the 5943333 stenciled over it making hard to see. ??? The 12AU7 is a general amplifier commonly use then and even today in some high end audio equipment.
Yes that is simple test ;) , the Autronic-Eye tester is just a box with the controls and the meter to adjust the intensity of the light bulb inside to calibrate the “DIM and HOLD†controls on the amp. I have several ones that I was able to refurbished and now stacked on my shelves.
Yes that is a DENGEROUS box the voltage can reach close to 800V AC out to the phototube. :o
It is funny that a similar setup is coming back on newer vehicles commonly known as “adaptive headlights†on some GM models. ;)
Yes, I made one for the radio and fitted inside the same can as the old mechanical one (see P1150144.JPG) just need a bit of refinement on the label. I’ve use this one during the AM calibration on the spare radio, will try to make one more for the one on the car.
I just got the replacement caps for the working radio so now I need to go over these and mark which side is the “foil sideâ€, the new ones are not marked as they did with the older wax paper caps.
I know that solid state vibrators are available but I like to tinker around, and for about $18 on parts and a few hours I could not pass the opportunity.
For the Autronic-Eye amplifier I had a few spare caps and made this board with the capacitors that are strapped on top of the transformer, had to use two in parallel for the .06mf with the ones on-hand. See attach pictures P1120140.JPG board mounted and P1150145.JPG just the board, the capacitor on the side goes under the 12AU7 socket.
J.,
I think that's really cool that you can engineer replacements for tubes and vibrators. That's a bit out of my league. I'd love to be able to do that sort of stuff. I've designed some things, but nothing that complicated.
Have you ever thought about drawing out your designs to sell to help others who would like or need to replace a tube or vibrator?
You know I learn something new every day. My problem is I forget something else every hour. In a few years I won't know anything! LOL!!
Rick
At the risk of repeating myself, during the early 70's I used my '56 to commute a 90 trip each day to work. I absolutely loved the a/c (and heating system)in these cars. On hot, humid days the a/c was so effective that I had to wrap a towel around my neck as the chrome air conditioning diverter would drip on my shoulder and neck... and yes, it was a COOL car even back in the 70's. As a school man, the students loved to talk about it with me-- of course, those models were "very old school designs" even then. James
James,
Yours must have been a 4 door sedan if the ac came out overhead. I wish that GM had done that for all models. When I first got mine I thought someone had modified it because the ac vents were only on each side of the rear package shelf.
I found a set of the clear tube/ducts for it before I realized that the hardtop models didn't use any.
I would think it's more effective if it comes out in the roof.
I gotta wonder how much of the cool air will reach the front seat from flat vents on the rear shelf.
Another thing I'm wondering about is why the control for the outside air intake is mounted on the rear package shelf where it can't be reached by the driver.
It seems like the engineers didn't think this through very well.
Nonetheless, I'm excited to see how it works when I get it done.
I'm kicking around the idea of converting it from R12 to R134 because of the availability of the R12 and the outrageous price for it if you can even find it.
Thanks for your comments and memories on it. Much appreciated.
Rick
Rick,
The specific resistance wire you are referring is called “Nichrome†it is the type used on both the inside A/C temp control lever and the thermostat on the evaporator unit. I believe the insulation used on the thermostat wire was cotton.
There should be two wires coiled around the capillary tube one has a few turns while the other has about twice as many. The short one would have a resistance of about 15ohm with a length of +/-15†and the long would be about 45ohm with a length of +/-32â€. Both ends are strapped at the end of the capillary tube for the ground, DO NOT solder them at the end of the capillary tube you will destroy the tube.
The smaller wire heater is controlled by the inside temp lever position to open or close the thermostat for the compressor cycling. When the control is place on the full “cool†position the larger one is place in-line for a longer cycling.
Mine was bad so I had to modify it with a newer Ranco unit and built the heater coils and transplant the contacts over. I used a fiberglass sleeves to isolate the wires around the tube they were thing and did allowed heating around the tube.
HTH
R12 isn't that badly priced and there's tons of it on eBay and Craigslist. I'd rather pay extra to run R12 and have it COLD than run R134 and have it cool.
Quote from: J. Gomez on January 16, 2020, 11:41:43 AM
Rick,
The specific resistance wire you are referring is called “Nichrome†it is the type used on both the inside A/C temp control lever and the thermostat on the evaporator unit. I believe the insulation used on the thermostat wire was cotton.
There should be two wires coiled around the capillary tube one has a few turns while the other has about twice as many. The short one would have a resistance of about 15ohm with a length of +/-15†and the long would be about 45ohm with a length of +/-32â€. Both ends are strapped at the end of the capillary tube for the ground, DO NOT solder them at the end of the capillary tube you will destroy the tube.
The smaller wire heater is controlled by the inside temp lever position to open or close the thermostat for the compressor cycling. When the control is place on the full “cool†position the larger one is place in-line for a longer cycling.
Mine was bad so I had to modify it with a newer Ranco unit and built the heater coils and transplant the contacts over. I used a fiberglass sleeves to isolate the wires around the tube they were thing and did allowed heating around the tube.
HTH
Thanks for clarifying that Jose. I appreciate the help. Let me ask you this though, where do you get that wire at? What's more, what about the cotton insulation? Or any insulation that's small enough for the wire? If I use something that's too big or too thick it won't right. I think the heat wouldn't reach the tube.
And yes, the wire on mine was crimped under that small cap on the end of the tube for a ground. I could see the solder on it too.
I had 3 of these control sensors to begin with, but I knew at least one was no good as the mice had chewed up the wires everywhere.
While experimenting with this one, I found out the hard way that if you try to unsolder the original wires and replace them, then the tube is rendered useless. As the sudden flare from the end of tube in the solder made evident. (One down, two to go). I won't be trying that again!
My thought was that the insulation was probably something like asbestos because of the heat involved. I could see scorch marks on the old stuff and figured that cotton would be really easy to light on fire.
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on January 16, 2020, 12:35:35 PM
R12 isn't that badly priced and there's tons of it on eBay and Craigslist. I'd rather pay extra to run R12 and have it COLD than run R134 and have it cool.
Dan, true, the R134 isn't as effective as R12, but I've had good luck converting my other vehicles over to 134.
One thing I learned is not to charge the system with as much as the conversion charts say to do.
The R134 seems to work better when it's under charged just slightly.
Now I'm not sure about that with this original Cadillac system. I'm going to use an A6 compressor though, resealed with all new components, and a condenser and a (new) dryer from a '72 Cadillac. The newer condenser design (and larger), should be be better than the original one is. ( I had to laugh when I first picked up the original one. No wonder these cars got lousy fuel mileage !! It's all steel !!).
It's the size of the system that has me wondering. That's an awful lot of refrigerant even for an R12 system.
There's a big chance that there will be a leak somewhere regardless of the preparations and precautions I would take. Just too many connections, and using the original equipment for most of the system, I'd be more comfortable trying it with R134.
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 16, 2020, 01:42:30 PM
Thanks for clarifying that Jose. I appreciate the help. Let me ask you this though, where do you get that wire at? What's more, what about the cotton insulation? Or any insulation that's small enough for the wire? If I use something that's too big or too thick it won't right. I think the heat wouldn't reach the tube.
I got the resistance wire and the insulation sleeves from different sellers on eBay. I believe the sleeve I’ve used are fiberglass they do allow head to go out as I’ve tested them with the wire before winding the wire around the tube and where the perfect width for the wire.
It has been a few eons ago and can’t remember where I stashed the left over ones. Memory capacity for storage is very low. ;D
The resistance wire came in different sizes so I had multiple uses for them beside the A/C thermostat, I’ve also use the large size to remake the headlight switch rheostat coil.
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 16, 2020, 01:42:30 PM
My thought was that the insulation was probably something like asbestos because of the heat involved. I could see scorch marks on the old stuff and figured that cotton would be really easy to light on fire.
It may well be asbestos not 100% sure at that time it look more like cotton after 60 years but with age things tend to look different. ;)
Quote from: J. Gomez on January 16, 2020, 06:07:57 PM
I got the resistance wire and the insulation sleeves from different sellers on eBay. I believe the sleeve I’ve used are fiberglass they do allow head to go out as I’ve tested them with the wire before winding the wire around the tube and where the perfect width for the wire.
It has been a few eons ago and can’t remember where I stashed the left over ones. Memory capacity for storage is very low. ;D
The resistance wire came in different sizes so I had multiple uses for them beside the A/C thermostat, I’ve also use the large size to remake the headlight switch rheostat coil.
It may well be asbestos not 100% sure at that time it look more like cotton after 60 years but with age things tend to look different. ;)
Thanks, that's good to know. I'll look into it on the web then. I had checked with the local electronics supply store with no luck.
Let me ask you this then. Would the system work without the resistance wire, just use a resistor instead to get the load on the circuit, and then just let the tube handle the temperature fluctuations on it's own?
I'm assuming that there needs to be a small load on the control panel instead of going straight to a ground at the sensor.
And would you happen to know what the amperage is on both of these circuits?
My guess is that it's not gonna be very much at all or the A/C control would fry.
The heavy amperage from the compressor clutch is handled by the cycling switch in the evap case if I remember.
I'm just trying to figure out if there might be a way to eliminate this resistance wire but still maintain the original control system.
Also. I'm gonna guess the system won't work with the resistance eliminated completely. There must be some sort of resistance here right?
I'm asking all of this looking for an alternative to the resistance wire, since it is such a pain to replace.
And I understand completely about the limited storage space in the memory banks. I too have this problem.
I usually learn something new every day, however I alleviate it by forgetting twice as much every day. I think that in about another 10 to 15 years I should be a complete blithering idiot! (Although some people think that of me now!) LOL
Have a good day Jose, and thanks for your time and help.
Rick,
The resistance wire is needed to control the thermostat to cycle the compressor, when heat is generated to warm the capillary tube the thermostat will close the +12V path to the compressor to turn it on. When the cold temp inside reaches the set temp per the adjustment setting at the thermostat adjustment screw it then opens the path to the compressor to turn it off.
The thermostat is similar as the one used on freezers except it works in reversed order to cycle the compressor.
If you set the inside A/C controls to full cold the cycle last longer keeping the compressor “on†longer, since the longer heating wire at the thermostat would take a bit long to head up.
You also have a second thermostat which is inside the evaporator with the capillary going around the cooling line low side (from memory) this is the freezer control, this will open the path to the compressor if freeze develops around the lines.
HTH
Quote from: J. Gomez on January 16, 2020, 08:29:56 PM
Rick,
The resistance wire is needed to control the thermostat to cycle the compressor, when heat is generated to warm the capillary tube the thermostat will close the +12V path to the compressor to turn it on. When the cold temp inside reaches the set temp per the adjustment setting at the thermostat adjustment screw it then opens the path to the compressor to turn it off.
The thermostat is similar as the one used on freezers except it works in reversed order to cycle the compressor.
If you set the inside A/C controls to full cold the cycle last longer keeping the compressor “on†longer, since the longer heating wire at the thermostat would take a bit long to head up.
You also have a second thermostat which is inside the evaporator with the capillary going around the cooling line low side (from memory) this is the freezer control, this will open the path to the compressor if freeze develops around the lines.
HTH
Hey Jose,
Yes I figured the sensor in the evaporator case/core cut power when it got too cold.
I think I got the resistance wire function backwards though. I was thinking that the short wire didn't get as hot as the longer one.
But as for the actual purpose of the resistance wire, isn't it there to keep the tube from switching the sensor off/on before the air temp gets too cold? At least that's the way I understood it to work, but like I said before, I'm no electrician, that's why I'm asking these questions.
I'm glad you're taking the time to answer them. I thank you too.
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 16, 2020, 10:06:23 AM
James,
Yours must have been a 4 door sedan if the ac came out overhead. I wish that GM had done that for all models. When I first got mine I thought someone had modified it because the ac vents were only on each side of the rear package shelf.
I found a set of the clear tube/ducts for it before I realized that the hardtop models didn't use any.
I would think it's more effective if it comes out in the roof.
I gotta wonder how much of the cool air will reach the front seat from flat vents on the rear shelf.
Another thing I'm wondering about is why the control for the outside air intake is mounted on the rear package shelf where it can't be reached by the driver.
It seems like the engineers didn't think this through very well.
Nonetheless, I'm excited to see how it works when I get it done.
I'm kicking around the idea of converting it from R12 to R134 because of the availability of the R12 and the outrageous price for it if you can even find it.
Thanks for your comments and memories on it. Much appreciated.
Rick
Getting back to your comments about the effectiveness of the "ceiling mount" a/c diverters in the SDV, as I mentioned, the a/c was "bellissimo" --- with sufficient cooling to create condensate that would drip on my neck and shoulder, and often fog up part of the side windows. Much like a/c in an modern jet liner, that system would cool down the car in three minutes time. Also, in spite of the cold air running through those plexiglass tube in the rear, they never fogged up --- the a/c was amazing. James
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 16, 2020, 08:48:17 PM
Hey Jose,
Yes I figured the sensor in the evaporator case/core cut power when it got too cold.
I think I got the resistance wire function backwards though. I was thinking that the short wire didn't get as hot as the longer one.
But as for the actual purpose of the resistance wire, isn't it there to keep the tube from switching the sensor off/on before the air temp gets too cold? At least that's the way I understood it to work, but like I said before, I'm no electrician, that's why I'm asking these questions.
I'm glad you're taking the time to answer them. I thank you too.
Rick
Rick,
Yes is a bit complex verbally explaining the function of the thermostat, it took me a while to understand the logic on its operation when I was working on it.
If you have the service manual under section 16 page 16-A-3 Fig 16-A-4 show the operation of the contacts on the thermostat.
The short resistance wire work in series with the A/C temp control rheostat, so if you move the lever to “cooler†area you will add additional resistance from the control rheostat causing the resistance wire to take longer to warm up. When you slide the lever over to the opposite side you will be decreasing the resistance causing the resistance wire to warm faster as the control moves lower.
HTH
Ok, that helps out. If I'm getting this right then, the control won't work without the resistance provided by the sensor?
What if you were to replace the nichrome wire with an actual resistor of the same value?
Just thinking out loud here, so to speak.
So the only purpose of the rheostat on the control is to provide a variable voltage to the resistance wire on the sensor, thus controlling the temperature.
The resistance wire heats, or not, the capillary tube. The tube, being sensitive to air temperature, expands and contracts the bulb moving--- what? So what does that sensor actuate? Just an on/off switch for the other sensor that's in the middle of the evaporator core which cycles the compressor, or have I got it all wrong again?
Is there any way to bypass, or eliminate this resistance sensor from the circuit, or perhaps a newer type of sensor?
I'm wondering how long would this original one work even if it was intact. It's not the easiest thing to remove given its location, and to rewire it isn't going to be easy either.
I looked up the nichrome wire, and there's some available in many sizes, the smallest being I think 34 GA. not sure yet just what size mine is, gotta get up off my backside and go look.
The temperature rating on this stuff is really high, upwards of 2500 degrees.
Just how hot does this resistance wire on the sensor actually get, do you know? If it got that hot, I would think it would melt the solder.
But back to the wire insulation, I think I had tried to determine what it was once by trying to burn a small piece of it. When it didn't go up in flames, I assumed it was asbestos.
I looked for the fiberglass wire cover. I found it, but it didn't seem like it would be able to tighten up on the wire enough. How big was the stuff that you got? And where did you find it?
Once again, I want to thank you for your time and help. I'm very grateful to you for trying to educate me.
Rick
Ok, I just thought about the cycling switch swap idea, but that doesn't work because the newer cars that use it also use the mix door to blend the hot and cold air to get anywhere in between.
Now the'88 Brougham I had, had a capillary tube sensor on the low pressure line before it entered the evap case, but I can't recall if it also had a low pressure switch on the accumulator as well. Even so, I guess that it wouldn't matter, they still used the mix door to blend the air.
Just brainstorming here. ( I'm getting all wet!!!).
There's gotta be a way to rewire it so that the old sensor isn't required.
Without it, basically all you'd have is an ON, or OFF, no in between.
Any ideas?
So other than the expansion valve, a POA valve, a VIR valve, or an Orfice tube/low pressure switch with a mix/blend door, what other types of control systems are there?
I remember that the old under dash air conditioning used an adjustable capillary tube style switch to control the air temperature by cycling the compressor. Simple, basic, effective.
That's not gonna work for this though, I don't think they make a tube long enough to reach from the evaporator to the control panel.
Ok, Jose,
I just looked again at the other sensors I have, and I tested a small fiber from the resistance wire insulation to see if it would burn. My thinking was if it was asbestos it would not. Well, it burned. So maybe it is cotton after all.
I thought that cotton would catch fire much easier than asbestos would and in this high temperature application they would have used asbestos. But that's just me. Again, I'm no engineer.
I also looked at what I have tried for a replacement wire to make the sensor work again. I've tried some wire from a couple of different old soldering irons, as well as some from an electric fence cord.
None of them would work though. Wrong resistance, or too thick.
To insulate the wire, I also tried dipping it into a can of plasti-dip. But it's too inconsistent and far too difficult, not to mention too messy.
I'll post a picture of what I have, some of my notes, the wire, sensors.
Another question I have is do you know what they used to put over the wire where it's wrapped around the base of the tube? It almost looks like some kind of ceramic or a putty that gets hard. I know that it's there to concentrate and retain the heat on the tube and bulb.
I was just comparing the tube/bulb unit to one out of an aftermarket under dash air unit one. The tube length is the same, but I need to take the under dash sensor apart to compare the bulb ends. If they are the same, I can repair the third original sensor I ruined when I tried to unsolder the resistance wire.
I had put all this stuff away for a while to clear my head. Sometimes it helps to take a break from it and just do something else for a while until you can think clearly again.
Off the subject of the A/C, here's a picture of some of my parts that I've put up after restoring them, the ones that would fit into a box that is. I've been doing both the ones I'm going to use and any spares I have. This way if I ever do need a part, and it's something I have, it's all ready to install.
The ones marked with "SP" are the spare parts, "CDV" of course is for the Coupe Deville.
FREE ,,,, i have a package tray A/C that i removed from a 59 coupe ,, it's free if some one want's to come and get it or pay for the ride..from Fallon Nv. 60miles east of Reno,,,,
Gene Harl CLC22406 775-423-8568
Quote from: gene harl on January 17, 2020, 06:46:42 PM
FREE ,,,, i have a package tray A/C that i removed from a 59 coupe ,, it's free if some one want's to come and get it or pay for the ride..from Fallon Nv. 60miles east of Reno,,,,
Gene Harl CLC22406 775-423-8568
If you'd have said something a week ago I'd have picked it up. My son was in the area for the Parker 500 race.
Damn the luck! I'm here 10 miles north of the Mexico border.
Let me ask you this though, does it look like the picture I posted here? Just curious now.
Rick
Rick,
If you do a search on eBay under “JELLIFF RESISTANCE WIRE†I’ve found a few sellers with what seems to have the correct wire already wrap with silk. Now that could well be silk what the old wire was wrap with but ???
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=JELLIFF+RESISTANCE+WIRE&_sacat=0
You may have notice the way the attached these wires was by possible spot-welded them ??? at the contact side and if I recall via a collar at the tube end.
With the one I refurbished I did not wanted to use any heat around the tube first the nichrome wire WON’T take solder and second as you know ruin the tube with heat. I instead wrap the ends with a few turns of solid hook-up 20AWG wire and used a bit of solder around the wraps careful in isolating the tube from any heat.
To attached the ends at the brass contact terminal I just cut a small grove and wrap the resistance wire around, I use all metal solder to cover the wire inside the grove.
HTH
Yes, I did notice how they connected the wire. The contact or connector ends had a cut or slice in them, like what you did, then they crimped it in place.
On the tube end, they slipped a sleeve over the end of the tube with the wire under it and then soldered it in place.
I did manage to remove the sleeve from the second sensor tube without any problems. I just used less heat. On the first one I tried, I didn't realize that the tube was soldered shut on the end, so I probably used too much heat, as evident in the small flare I got out of the end of the tube when the solder cut loose.
I was just looking at the tube on an aftermarket sensor, and other than not having the small shielding for the wire to wrap around, it's identical. I'll have to reshape the tube to get the coil end on it, but I think it will work out fine.
Not that it will matter if I can't get the wire correct.
As for the wire, is that guy only selling a 3 foot section for $2 or is that for the whole roll? The silk cover would probably be fine I think. But I don't have anything silk to do a comparison on for the fire test.
The other thing is the size of the wire. The original wire was only .006 thousands thick, which measures out to a 34 AWG wire.
The wire for sale you're referring to is .0195" in diameter, which is around 24 AWG. I don't know if this will be too big or not, but maybe it would last longer than the original one would.
Do you remember the size of wire you used on your sensor?
I'm sorry for all the questions, but I'm very grateful for your help on this. My thanks again. You've been a big help.
Rick
Jose, or someone else with knowledge about these A/C systems, I have a question and an idea to run by you,
So the resistance wire is only there to cause the capillary tube to react faster to the changes in the incoming air temperature, and make the sensor act basically as a cycling switch.
If the resistance wire is not working, (broken or burned out), then the capillary tube is much slower to react.
Also, without the resistance wire working, that takes the "variability" out of the control on the dash. It's just turned into an ON or OFF switch, more or less, right?
What if you were to replace the air temperature sensor/capillary tube/resistance wire sensor/switch unit, with one from an under dash unit. A capillary tube temperature sensor that's adjustable.
It would have to be adjusted by one of two ways. Either by a knob on the rear package shelf just like the outside air control is, or, by means of a cable from the A/C control head itself.
This would eliminate the original sensor with a questionable dependability and no availability, with one that is still available and has less to malfunction.
I would have to figure out how to make it work with a cable.
But what do you think about that idea?
Rick,
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 17, 2020, 08:20:34 PM
As for the wire, is that guy only selling a 3 foot section for $2 or is that for the whole roll? The silk cover would probably be fine I think. But I don't have anything silk to do a comparison on for the fire test.
The other thing is the size of the wire. The original wire was only .006 thousands thick, which measures out to a 34 AWG wire.
The wire for sale you're referring to is .0195" in diameter, which is around 24 AWG. I don't know if this will be too big or not, but maybe it would last longer than the original one would.
Do you remember the size of wire you used on your sensor?
I’ve lost several files when my H/D crashed a few years back, unfortunately some of the details I had from my A/C work is lost. :(
The seller has a .0075 wire which probably could be used for this application with a bit longer length to get close to the original wire resistance.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/C-O-JELLIFF-RESISTANCE-WIRE-SIZE-0075/291056178739?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 19, 2020, 06:33:40 PM
So the resistance wire is only there to cause the capillary tube to react faster to the changes in the incoming air temperature, and make the sensor act basically as a cycling switch.
If the resistance wire is not working, (broken or burned out), then the capillary tube is much slower to react.
Also, without the resistance wire working, that takes the "variability" out of the control on the dash. It's just turned into an ON or OFF switch, more or less, right?
I would speculate that to be true depending on which side is “open†the longer or the shorter one.
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 19, 2020, 06:33:40 PM
What if you were to replace the air temperature sensor/capillary tube/resistance wire sensor/switch unit, with one from an under dash unit. A capillary tube temperature sensor that's adjustable.
It would have to be adjusted by one of two ways. Either by a knob on the rear package shelf just like the outside air control is, or, by means of a cable from the A/C control head itself.
This would eliminate the original sensor with a questionable dependability and no availability, with one that is still available and has less to malfunction.
I would have to figure out how to make it work with a cable.
But what do you think about that idea?
I recall that you may be looking at replacing the original A5 compressor with a later type A6 and possible going with an under-dash unit instead of having the rear unit. If you are considering in going this route there are units available today to retrofit or maybe adapting an older unit. ???
The thing is, you will be the driver that would need to enjoy the cool air not the empty rear area. ;)
I’m not familiar with how the temp control works on those so I can’t give you any feedback. Or if there is a way to retrofit what is on the older Frigidaire units to replace the temp controls, sorry.. :(
Jose,
I'm still trying to find a way to go with the original air, and with the original sensor.
What I'm have trouble with is finding a wire covering that is small enough and has the right heat protection.
I was looking on McMaster's and they have some that's small enough but I'm afraid it will melt.
They also have some that will hold up to the heat, but it's too big.
As for the under dash air, I'm not going that route. I want to keep the original ac.
What I was thinking briefly was maybe using a thermostat from an under dash air that doesn't need the resistance wire to work. The only problem with this is being able to control it from the dash. It would have to be by a cable, or, the knob put on the package shelf beside the fresh air intake control.
Neither idea is very good, I was just thinking out loud again, so to speak.
If I may ask, how or where did you find out what the total resistance is supposed to be on the sensor? I couldn't find anything about the sensor in the FSM other than the wiring diagram and a brief description of its function.
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on January 20, 2020, 10:23:00 AM
If I may ask, how or where did you find out what the total resistance is supposed to be on the sensor? I couldn't find anything about the sensor in the FSM other than the wiring diagram and a brief description of its function.
When I had mine in pieces I took a measurement of the left over wires after I removed them from the thermostat the reading I took were approximately since they were in several pieces.
Jose,
Ok, I think you nailed it with the smaller Jellif wire. I just ordered some, 10 feet actually. I figured it wouldn't hurt to have extra if it ever became necessary.
I don't know why I didn't see it in the first link you gave me. Guess I didn't look far enough.
I want to thank you for all your help on this. There's no way I could have found all the information on my own. You've been a life saver.
If there's anything I can help you with, please just ask. I'll let you know how the repair goes.
Rick
Hey Rick
Great reading these posts. I am new to all this but have loved Cadillacs since my teen years my Dad had a 58, a 57, a 60 and My Fav a 54 Coupe Deville he drove home one Sunday Morning in 1968 after having won it in a Sat. Night poker game. It was white over black and the best looking driving car I have ever driven. And in March I will be 68. So I have driven a lot of different cars in my life. I hope you and the others here will be of help in restoring my 62. Can't wait for warm weather.
Dan
Dan.
Be glad to help if I can with information or experience. I'm no expert though by far.
My first experience with Cadillacs was the '67 convertible my parents had back in the 80's. It made me want one and I found a '69 convertible in '86. I loved this car. I used it for our honeymoon in '87.
Unfortunately we needed money and had to sell it a few years later to pay some bills.
But now I have "Norma", Norma Jean, otherwise known as Marylin Monroe for you young whippersnappers out there, LOL!