This is a curious one for the electrically minded.
To begin with, in order to save time, yes I know to set the polarity before starting. I also know the ammeter is more of a general guide than any sort of calibrated gauge.
For some time I've suspected my voltage regulator was acting up. At idle it hangs more or less around the middle mark. Bounces over to the "charge" side once in a while, dips down to "discharge" side when appropriate like when I turn the headlights on.
So far, so good. But...I started noticing that on occasion it pegs over to "charge" and stays there for considerably longer than I think it should. I've never timed it, but we're talking minutes worth with no load other than the engine running. So I started pulling over and popping the hood and giving the VR a rap with my knuckles and it would cut loose and go back to the center mark.
Determining that perhaps the points in the VR were sticking, I decided to order a replacement which is a "Standard" brand (made in USA) and install it to see if that takes care of the problem. Figure I'd keep the old one as a replacement for the parts bag.
The new VR is installed, and now the gauge only goes up to about the 1/4 mark on the "discharge" side. Turn the headlights on and it dips down even further and only nudges up to the 1/4 mark on occasion. This worries me that perhaps it is defective or isn't charging at all. I drive a bit at night and the last thing I need is my headlights sucking my battery dry on the way home.
So now I get to thinking maybe I should clean the contacts on my old VR and put it back on the car, which is what I have done. The contacts were actually pretty clean, no evidence of arcing or pitting that I could see anyway, but I hit them with some fine emery cloth nonetheless. Put it back on the car and the ammeter is back to where I "think" it is supposed to be, but I'll have to see if it's still doing the pegging routine.
So does anyone have any thoughts of what I'm dealing with here? Am I just being paranoid and the pegging is just it's normal cycling? Is my new VR defective, or perhaps mis-adjusted?
Everything I can find talks about a sticking VR resulting in a pegging to the "discharge" side so I'm pretty much at a loss as to what is going on. I'd like to get to the bottom of it and effect a definitive repair, rather than a temporary cure of the symptoms and hoping it doesn't bite me when I don't need it to be doing so.
Please clarify...with the new VR....does it charge at all ie is the ammeter ever on the
"charge" side of the mid-mark on the gauge ?
Also...I never clean points with anything rougher than fine crocus cloth...I think I read in the
Delco Remy manual that anything rougher than this could damage points
I've even heard of just using "rice paper"
The ultimate check is battery voltage......with either of the VRs....are you able
to sustain the correct battery voltage ( something like 6.3 volts for a "six volt" battery) ?
Jack Worstell
First, the theory about cleaning points is to use an ignition file as abrasive cloth will leave small pieces of abrasive which could contaminate the contacts. That’s the theory anyway.
Another theory employed here is ‘malletization’. This technique was employed successfully to identify that the issue was most likely with the VR and not the Ammeter. It is unclear if the ammeter was ‘malletized’ as part of the troubleshooting. This is commonly performed using one of the digits of the applicable on side hand to the face of the indicator starting with a ‘light tap’ and sometimes progressing to ‘breaking the glass’ by using a knuckle.
A third theory employed here is that new stuff is junk. I support this theory.
So the regulator points were ‘cleaned’ and we don’t really have confirmation that the fault was cleared.
We need this confirmation in order to assess the issue.
Now, further to the ‘sticking points’ thing, points can stick for other reasons than contact face arcing. There is the electrical connection interfaces and there is a spring and there is a hinge point. So rapping on the VR does not identify the root cause of the ‘sticking points’ merely isolates the issue to something in the VR or the connection.
It is possible that undoing and redoing the connection resolved the issue. Or that manipulating the VR in the six degrees of freedom in 4 dimension space once it was removed from the vehicle changed the state of inertia of the problem. Thus it may be cleared temporarily or permanently, but it’s an unknown unknown at this point.
That’s it, I’m out of bluster...
This kind of issue can drive one nuts, especially when you have a new replacement part that gives a obviously bad reading. The best thing to do is take the generator and VR (both) to a shop that is familiar with old stuff for testing as a unit. We have a couple of those type shops nearby and neither will test one component without the other. The other thing you can do is wire up a voltmeter or more accurate ammeter. Harry
PS I remember the old time mechanics saying never use anything more course than a dollar bill for dressing points.
One for Sherlock Ohms!
Missed year/model this is on?
Put a direct reading volt gauge on it or voltmeter, if none. (I recommend for all VR/gen cars) Don't pay too much attention to the charge/discharge gauges. Designed for those who don't care and to drive all others crazy.(my opinion - not debatable)
First tell;The "gen" light(if equipped) should come on with ignition when it's powered but not running and go out once it turns. if it stays on, got a problem.
Watch the volts and it should output(increase) above 12.6 - climb up to ~16 - if really low, and come on when it's below 11-12 or so. If not, it's not charging the battery. The VR can be adjusted to change these values, but don't mess with it. Battery can be an issue too, won't accept a charge. So always check battery first, to make sure it's good - ie, weakest point. If the circuit doesn't have enough power to perform, it can't possibly work right. Check the battery and gen/VR leads too for proper positions and condition/not burnt , frayed, etc.. Some gens have an external "condenser"(capacitor) to prevent points from burning. These typically don't get changed, but should.
Take to auto electric shop, if stumped.
:) This is a 6 volt system, underneath the OP's original post you will see --- Jon Isaacson
1939 LaSalle 5019
For a 6 volt system, just cut the 12 volt numbers in half. I vote for finding a good electrical shop and having check the generator and regulator together as a pair.
Okay, bunch of inquiries to address...
Quote from: jackworstell on June 12, 2020, 06:06:19 AM
Pis the ammeter ever on the "charge" side of the mid-mark on the gauge ?
No. Not even close. As I mentioned, it hovers at the 1/4 mark at idle, goes down with headlights on.
Quote from: jackworstell on June 12, 2020, 06:06:19 AM
Pis the ammeter ever on the "charge" side of the mid-mark on the gauge ?
Also...I never clean points with anything rougher than fine crocus cloth...I think I read in the
Delco Remy manual that anything rougher than this could damage points
I've even heard of just using "rice paper"
By the time I posted this it was a done deal. I used 1000 grit for a moment or two. Can't imagine it would be irreparable but it is what it is for now.
Quote from: jackworstell on June 12, 2020, 06:06:19 AM
The ultimate check is battery voltage......with either of the VRs....are you able
to sustain the correct battery voltage ( something like 6.3 volts for a "six volt" battery) ?
I haven't had a problem in the past, but I'm going to swap out batteries and check voltage today.
Quote from: wrench on June 12, 2020, 08:17:04 AM
First, the theory about cleaning points is to use an ignition file as abrasive cloth will leave small pieces of abrasive which could contaminate the contacts. That’s the theory anyway.
Unfortunately my point file wouldn't fit in the space available.
Quote from: wrench on June 12, 2020, 08:17:04 AM
A third theory employed here is that new stuff is junk. I support this theory.
I tend to largely subscribe to this theory as well. The VR I have been running is vintage NOS, the replacement is newly made, supposedly in the United States. Sadly, the availability of decent vintage NOS parts for this era of car is drying up at a shocking rate. New "junk" is by default becoming only option.
Quote from: fishnjim on June 12, 2020, 12:51:14 PM
One for Sherlock Ohms!
Missed year/model this is on?
Put a direct reading volt gauge on it or voltmeter, if none. (I recommend for all VR/gen cars) Don't pay too much attention to the charge/discharge gauges. Designed for those who don't care and to drive all others crazy.(my opinion - not debatable)
First tell;The "gen" light(if equipped) should come on with ignition when it's powered but not running and go out once it turns. if it stays on, got a problem.
Watch the volts and it should output(increase) above 12.6 - climb up to ~16 - if really low, and come on when it's below 11-12 or so. If not, it's not charging the battery. The VR can be adjusted to change these values, but don't mess with it. Battery can be an issue too, won't accept a charge. So always check battery first, to make sure it's good - ie, weakest point. If the circuit doesn't have enough power to perform, it can't possibly work right. Check the battery and gen/VR leads too for proper positions and condition/not burnt , frayed, etc.. Some gens have an external "condenser"(capacitor) to prevent points from burning. These typically don't get changed, but should.
Take to auto electric shop, if stumped.
Yes, this is a 6v positive ground system on a 39 LaSalle, but I have a 42 generator/VR setup. I am wondering if the battery is (or at least part) of the issue as well. I'm going to tinker around today and swap out the battery to see what happens. It is an Optima red top that I put in about 2 1/2 years ago. It has never given me a moment's problem and it's never failed me. However it could well be coming to the end of it's effective service life.
USNTar,
Did you buy the new made in the USA Voltage regulator from Brinkman? I bought one there a few months ago. Made in the USA premium model something like $95.00. The had a "standard" model for far less but not U.S. made. Just wondering so I could be on guard .
Bob R.
Quote from: USNTarThe new VR is installed, and now the gauge only goes up to about the 1/4 mark on the "discharge" side. Turn the headlights on and it dips down even further and only nudges up to the 1/4 mark on occasion.
That ammeter should be centered when off, definitely move into the
charge side with some rpms, or you are SOL. At least 7V should result
with charging, charge but rather low voltage is a battery problem.
The problem with those old systems is getting good parts. Time was the
junk yard was full of them, and I stocked up for my cars. Now days its
enough to make you want to alternate. good luck, Bruce Roe
I have the opposite problem on my newly rebuilt 1939 LaSalle. Charging at 8.5-9.5 volts. I’ll be interested in other options...anyone making a solid state unit that can be hidden under the cover of a original VR?
Okay. I swapped back to the old VR and the gauge reads more or less in the middle as it should at idle, except it's still wanting to peg to the charge side on occasion. I also swapped out the Optima battery I had in there for another and it doesn't make any difference. I also took that Optima battery to a parts store to see if I potentially had a cell burning out. No issues there to note so I'm going to put it back in.
At least now I know the battery isn't the issue. I still strongly suspect the VR is the problem, (it was a vintage Echlin VR57), and that the new Standard VR is worthless.
However, for my next step I'm going to put a meter to the generator to see if it's acting up. I just had it rebuilt back in August so I can't imagine that being the issue, but one never knows. If everything rings true with it, it HAS to be the VR I would think (all new wiring harness two years ago as well).
Quote from: z3skybolt on June 13, 2020, 03:12:07 PM
USNTar,
Did you buy the new made in the USA Voltage regulator from Brinkman? I bought one there a few months ago. Made in the USA premium model something like $95.00. The had a "standard" model for far less but not U.S. made. Just wondering so I could be on guard .
Bob R.
No, I got one of the Standard brand ones for $65 from Rock Auto. It is plainly stamped on the VR "Made in USA", but these days I don't know who or what to trust anymore in that regard. I think I'm going to send it back and get one of the Brinkman jobs you mentioned.
Quote from: bcroe on June 13, 2020, 03:48:40 PM
The problem with those old systems is getting good parts. Time was the
junk yard was full of them, and I stocked up for my cars. Now days its
enough to make you want to alternate. good luck, Bruce Roe
Yup. Buying old ones can be dicey too. Never know how they've been stored etc., etc., etc.
Quote from: LaSalle5019 on June 13, 2020, 07:10:05 PM
I have the opposite problem on my newly rebuilt 1939 LaSalle. Charging at 8.5-9.5 volts. I’ll be interested in other options...anyone making a solid state unit that can be hidden under the cover of a original VR?
That's what I'd like to see too.
Check the wire that goes from the F terminal on the generator to the
F terminal on the VR. If anywhere along this wire there is an intermittent
short to ground....you will correspondingly see intermittent high charge
And I suppose inside the generator if there is a bare spot on the lead from the field coil
to the F terminal.....causing intermittent short to ground.......likewise there would be intermittent high charge
And check the F terminal on the generator...is the insulator for this terminal in good shape ?
That is....see if the terminal itself is intermittently shorting to ground
Jack Worstell
I just went through this with our 55. Old regulator seems to have died after glove box left open while on a Battery Tender. Got a new one (BWD from Advance because I had a 25% off coupon and free shipping) and it overcharged. Figured it was just a bad new one so got another and had the same problem. Contacted them and they talked me through adjusting it. You don't adjust the point gap, you adjust the spring tension (at least on this one). So maybe contact the company and ask them.
Jeff
Quote from: jackworstell on June 15, 2020, 08:34:06 AM
Check the wire that goes from the F terminal on the generator to the
F terminal on the VR. If anywhere along this wire there is an intermittent
short to ground....you will correspondingly see intermittent high charge
And I suppose inside the generator if there is a bare spot on the lead from the field coil
to the F terminal.....causing intermittent short to ground.......likewise there would be intermittent high charge
And check the F terminal on the generator...is the insulator for this terminal in good shape ?
That is....see if the terminal itself is intermittently shorting to ground
Jack Worstell
Thanks Jack, that is some interesting info I hadn't seen anyone talk about. Specifically the F terminal potentially causing a high charge rate to show. I will definitely be checking into this. I can't imagine the wiring to be faulty as new as it is, but I don't want to leave any stone unturned.
Quote from: z3skybolt on June 13, 2020, 03:12:07 PM
USNTar,
Did you buy the new made in the USA Voltage regulator from Brinkman? I bought one there a few months ago. Made in the USA premium model something like $95.00. The had a "standard" model for far less but not U.S. made. Just wondering so I could be on guard .
Bob R.
After doing some studying on it, I decided to NOT order the Brillman (which I think you meant) VR. According to them, their VR isn't listed as being designed for either the generator or VR that I have (1102693 generator; 118202 regulator). Now it is possible that they just didn't list my numbers as an oversight, and it may well work fine for my application, but I decided to be better safe than sorry. Likewise, the generic Standard brand VR-1 one I bought and tried to install just may not be as "one size fits all" as I had been lead to believe. Either way, I decided to go with a known quantity that specifically lists my application. So I ordered one from USAutoElectric which did list my numbers. It cost me a few extra bucks, but I have been told they are a top notch US made supplier. We'll see how it works out I guess.
While I plan on going through everything I can, I ultimately am still convinced the VR is the problem. The reason I say this is the symptoms of the pegged charging were manifesting themselves right before my generator went out last year (or at least that's when I first noticed it). Some of you may recall that I had taken a long trip and was having an overheating situation. On that run, I specifically noticed a inexplicable correlation between the pegging of the temperature gauge AND the ammeter at the exact same time. It didn't make sense, but my main focus was the overheating situation and I felt the ammeter issue wasn't a priority at the time. Before it was over and done with I had to have the generator rebuilt because I had tightened the belt too much in a desperate attempt to keep (I thought) the water pump pulley from slipping. Because pegging of the ammeter hasn't consistently proved much more of a problem until recent weeks, I just hadn't followed through on remedying that.
So what I do know for fact now is that I was having a problem with the ammeter pegging in August of last year. I had the generator rebuilt for a different reason, but the problem still persisted after the rebuild. I have driven it for several more months and noticed that sometimes the ammeter pegs, sometimes it doesn't. I learned that if I pulled over and gave it a rap with my knuckles it would bounce back down to the middle of the gauge for the time being. Getting tired of that routine, I decided to solve the problem. The situation with the ammeter existed both before and after the generator rebuild so I can't imagine that the generator is the source of the issue but will check as best I can.
I have changed out the battery and the problem persists, so I know it isn't the battery. The wiring is essentially new, so again, I can't imagine that being the problem but I will attempt to verify. If everything else checks out, all that leaves is the VR. The one I got from RockAuto doesn't even come close to showing a solid charge on the ammeter. Obviously something isn't right with that one so I'm sending it back to RockAuto. The vintage Echlin one I have works as normal other than the occasional sticking problem which I am trying to cure. Cleaning the points on it didn't work so I now have to wait to get my new one from USAutoElectric to see if that fixes the situation. Meanwhile, I'll continue checking the wiring and generator to see what that turns up.
You might connect a volt meter as suggested, maybe one that just
plugs into the lighter socket. If you see it jump up in unison with
the ammeter, its the VR or related wiring. No voltage change, the
ammeter is at least suspect. Some use a shunt connected to a more
sensitive meter, a poor shunt connection could cause a high reading.
good luck, Bruce Roe
I had a similar problem on my 37,it turned out to be the fan belt was loose?,felt tight but was too long and didnt keep proper tension on it,i did install the right belt and it seems better now,might be something to look at,you never know. :o Harveyb
Quote[quoteOn that run, I specifically noticed a inexplicable correlation between the pegging of the temperature gauge AND the ammeter at the exact same time. ]
[/quote]
Mr. Isaacson, I suspect that the correlation of your temperature gauge pegging and the ammeter acting up at the same time is a good clue to the problem. I think there is a short, possibly in the temperature gauge wiring, or a wire that is shorting to the temperature gauge wire that is causing the problem. That kind of short would signal to the voltage regulator that there is an increased load on the electrical system, causing the generator to have an increased output. By rapping on the ammeter, if the short is behind the ammeter, this momentarily causes a disconnect of the short. I don't know what the ease of access is to the back of the instrument panel, but it might be worth starting the car and reaching up under the instrument panel and moving the wires a bit and see if it affects the ammeter. Only an educated guess ;D ;D
Daryl Chesterman
USNTar,
I sent you a private message concerning the regulator from UsAutoElectric. I am interested in the claim that it is specific to our generators.
Thanks,
Bob R.
Quote from: bcroe on June 15, 2020, 12:37:23 PM
You might connect a volt meter as suggested, maybe one that just
plugs into the lighter socket. If you see it jump up in unison with
the ammeter, its the VR or related wiring. No voltage change, the
ammeter is at least suspect. Some use a shunt connected to a more
sensitive meter, a poor shunt connection could cause a high reading.
good luck, Bruce Roe
I'm going out of town for a few days, but I'll take this under consideration when I get back. Hopefully my new VR will have arrived by then and I can verify if I'm on the right track or not.
Quote from: harvey b on June 15, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
I had a similar problem on my 37,it turned out to be the fan belt was loose?,felt tight but was too long and didnt keep proper tension on it,i did install the right belt and it seems better now,might be something to look at,you never know. :o Harveyb
Thanks, but I'm pretty sure that's not the problem. Note my comments about having to have the generator rebuilt because I kept tightening it up, because I thought the water pump might be slipping. I keep very particular about belt tension now, but if the new VR doesn't work, I'll definitely revisit it.
Quote from: Daryl Chesterman on June 15, 2020, 07:29:26 PM
Mr. Isaacson, I suspect that the correlation of your temperature gauge pegging and the ammeter acting up at the same time is a good clue to the problem. I think there is a short, possibly in the temperature gauge wiring, or a wire that is shorting to the temperature gauge wire that is causing the problem. That kind of short would signal to the voltage regulator that there is an increased load on the electrical system, causing the generator to have an increased output. By rapping on the ammeter, if the short is behind the ammeter, this momentarily causes a disconnect of the short. I don't know what the ease of access is to the back of the instrument panel, but it might be worth starting the car and reaching up under the instrument panel and moving the wires a bit and see if it affects the ammeter. Only an educated guess ;D ;D
Daryl Chesterman
Interesting observation. To clarify, I've never knocked gauge loose by hitting the ammeter itself, just the voltage regulator. Under the dash I can tell you the connections are all tight and clean. Now I won't say the wiring WITHIN the gauge in the cluster isn't shorting out in some way. Something worth investigating if I can't track anything else down. Makes me wonder if the temperature sensor itself might be causing the issue? I don't know. That is one thing I've never replaced.
Jon, my observation as to rapping the ammeter came from this paragraph you wrote:
QuoteSo what I do know for fact now is that I was having a problem with the ammeter pegging in August of last year. I had the generator rebuilt for a different reason, but the problem still persisted after the rebuild. I have driven it for several more months and noticed that sometimes the ammeter pegs, sometimes it doesn't. I learned that if I pulled over and gave it a rap with my knuckles it would bounce back down to the middle of the gauge for the time being. Getting tired of that routine, I decided to solve the problem. The situation with the ammeter existed both before and after the generator rebuild so I can't imagine that the generator is the source of the issue but will check as best I can.
QuoteQuoteif I pulled over and gave it a rap with my knuckles it would bounce back down to the middle of the gauge
The "it" you referred to I assumed to be the ammeter since there was no mention of the voltage regulator. My theory still stands that there is a short in the wiring, although with your clarification, it must be in the wiring connected to the voltage regulator. Jack Worstell pointed this out in his post and I think he is spot on!
Daryl Chesterman
Quote from: Daryl Chesterman on June 16, 2020, 01:34:44 AM
Jon, my observation as to rapping the ammeter came from this paragraph you wrote:
The "it" you referred to I assumed to be the ammeter since there was no mention of the voltage regulator. My theory still stands that there is a short in the wiring, although with your clarification, it must be in the wiring connected to the voltage regulator. Jack Worstell pointed this out in his post and I think he is spot on!
Daryl Chesterman
Ah...right you are. I failed to differentiate. :D No, I get out and give the voltage regulator a knock and it all bounces back into line. Thanks for the idea though. I'm going to keep digging until I root this gremlin out.
Starting over again.
After much frustration and experimentation, I decided to start over again from the point I was before I started fooling with the charging system. Reason being I was getting no satisfaction or solution from any corrections I was trying.
I installed a brand new USAutoElectric voltage regulator and polarized the system. I failed to check battery charge prior to starting. Ammeter gauge pointed straight to center with ignition off. Turn key on, gauge moved down to ¼ mark. Press starter button, no movement of ammeter. Start car, ammeter stays at ¼ mark while idling or while at speed. Dips towards discharge when turning headlights on. Put voltmeter on battery posts while goosing engine and no voltage fluctuation. Generator shows an output of 6v +/- at idle speed, and 7.5v +/- while racing the engine up somewhat. Very loud distinct ticking/clicking noise heard coming from behind speedometer cluster. Sound is constant and changes in time to amount of pedal I give it. I can't hear this noise from engine bay unless I put a stethoscope on the voltage regulator. Drove around the neighborhood with headlights on for about ten minutes, and sat for twenty minutes at idle with headlights on. After stopping, I got a reading of 6.06v on the battery posts with voltmeter. Per some other posts I ran across on this forum which seemed to describe similar problems to mine, so I tried goosing the engine while pulling a battery cable off. The car died instantly. Not happy at all considering how much I paid for this VR. The behavior was identical to what I was getting from the brand new Standard VR-1 voltage regulator except the Standard didn't make noise, and I don't know if it would have kept the engine running when I pulled the battery cable (didn't try that).
Back to the drawing board and square one. I put the vintage Echlin VR57 back on the car and polarized the system. Battery was reading at 6.01v before starting. Ammeter gauge pointed straight to center with ignition off. Turn key on, gauge moved down to ¼ mark. Press starter button, ammeter dips down a bit and returns to center point. At idle it rides around the + side of center. Dips towards discharge when turning headlights on. Drove for twenty minutes with no additional load and ammeter pegs up to full charge and stays there the whole time with only a minor waver while driving. More or less comes back to center when stopped and idling. No abnormal ticking/clicking sounds from dash. Measured 6v coming off generator at idle, and up to 8v when goosing the engine. Pulled a battery cable off while goosing the engine, and it continues to run. Turn engine off, battery reads at 6.27v at posts.
Back through the mill again, I decide to maybe try a new battery to see if that cures the situation while leaving the vintage Echlin VR57 on the car. Sure enough, with a new battery the ammeter is back to behaving as per normal. Riding at or around the center mark, occasionally dipping towards charge and back down to the middle; and down to discharge when headlights are on. As far as I can tell, everything is working as it should now. For whatever reason, it seems the Optima battery that I have been running for 2 ½ years is possibly slowly losing its ability to accept a charge? I mean, I find it odd that it is holding a charge in the 6v neighborhood, but yet the ammeter suggests that the generator is having to continuously rather than intermittently shoot voltage to it to keep it going. If the battery is indeed going out on me, so much for the auto parts store testing the battery and saying it was good.
So for now I'm just going to let it ride and watch what happens to see if anything changes or if it holds up. I do have a ceramic fuse on the battery terminal of the VR, so I'm hoping that would protect the generator if anything were to go sideways there. Otherwise, maybe, just maybe, I accidentally cured the problem.
This of course brings up a new concern...why didn't the new voltage regulators work right? Perhaps I should hook them up with the new battery to see if that makes a difference. I just can't understand why both new regulators wouldn't register on the ammeter correctly, but the NOS one I've been running does. Perhaps the new ones are out of adjustment? Perhaps I should take them to an electrical shop to have them adjust them for me?
As a final note, for the record I did some analysis of the two voltage regulators I bought as replacements. I had purchased a Standard Motor Products VR1 regulator from RockAuto for $62 and a RM12018 regulator from USAutoElectric for $102. I can unquestionably state that both of these regulators were manufactured by the EXACT same company regardless of who sells them or how the box is marked. Externally, they are identical except for a slight color variance of the cadmium plating. The stamping “MADE IN USA†on the base which is missing the first line of the “M†is identical, and the rivets on the back side are clearly stamped by the exact same machine with identical tooling marks. There is no mistake that they are from the same manufacturer and made on the same machine as far as that goes.
Internally, they are exact in every respect except the following. The VR1 regulator uses a solid plate to which the contact points are mounted whereas the RM12018 regulator has a small, spring steel tongue which is riveted to that plate which mounts the contacts. Presumably, this gives it a higher level of sensitivity, I don't know. It is also worth noting that the contacts on the RM12018 are aligned perfectly though gapped wider, whereas the VR1 looks like the assembly was sloppy and the contacts are well off center. Otherwise, insofar as I can see, there is absolutely no difference between the two units. Are those differences enough to justify an extra $40? I don't know. Maybe. I suppose that is a decision the buyer will have to make. Anyway, this is just a side report on my observations of what is available on the newly made market since as we know the NOS parts are drying up exponentially.
Thanks for the excellent pictures. Perhaps the company did a cost reduction for
later versions of that part? Those mis aligned contacts may not keep it from
working, but they will reduce the contact life. I would expect to find an adjustment
screw that will change the maximum charging voltage.
Part of the problem here is, just throwing parts at it is not getting results. We
need someone to put on some gauges to follow its operation. Can not contribute
much here, having never owned a system like that. Bruce Roe
USNTar,
Well I just don't know what to say. I had hoped your newest VR would solve your problem. As a note....I went to their web site and it says that your VR is not adjustable for what that is worth. My NOS VR was adjustable. I screwed it up messing with it and took it to an auto electric shop and had it set properly. I reinstalled it a couple months ago and am keeping the one from Brillman as a backup. Brillman's appears identical to the one that you got from USauto. The NOS charges about 7.5 to 8.0 at fast idle and keeps my batteries charged at 7+.
For what it is worth I have two Red Top Optima batteries wired to double the amp. Gives lots more cranking time. The car normally starts quickly. Cranks longer when heat soaked but I have never run out of battery power with the two Optima. They are about two years old and so far working as promised.
I once experience the clicking sound of my VR when I first purchased the LaSalle. It had and 8 volt battery in it at the time. When I replaced the 8 volt with the two 6 volt Optima....the clicking has never reoccurred.
Keep us advised. So frustrating I know.
Bob R.
Quote from: bcroe on June 22, 2020, 10:15:28 PM
Perhaps the company did a cost reduction for later versions of that part? Those mis aligned contacts may not keep it from
working, but they will reduce the contact life. I would expect to find an adjustment
screw that will change the maximum charging voltage.
Part of the problem here is, just throwing parts at it is not getting results. We
need someone to put on some gauges to follow its operation. Can not contribute
much here, having never owned a system like that. Bruce Roe
My guess is they are cheaper to manufacture without the spring steel part or more precise fitment. But again, i don't know if that's why, or if it justifies the added expense. I am prone to agree that misaligned contacts can't be good though. But you are right, throwing parts at it has reached it's limit of effectiveness here from what I can tell. Unfortunately, these as well as my vintage one are non-adjustable, though I am given to understand that they can be manipulated by bending the contact plates or whatever they're called. All the manuals and reference materials I have seen state that you shouldn't try to adjust them, just replace. For me to get in there and fiddle around to get a precise adjustment by bending would involve a good deal of blind luck, so I think I'll leave it for the pros who have the proper equipment and know how.
Quote from: z3skybolt on June 22, 2020, 10:35:55 PM
USNTar,
Well I just don't know what to say. I had hoped your newest VR would solve your problem. As a note....I went to their web site and it says that your VR is not adjustable for what that is worth. My NOS VR was adjustable. I screwed it up messing with it and took it to an auto electric shop and had it set properly. I reinstalled it a couple months ago and am keeping the one from Brillman as a backup. Brillman's appears identical to the one that you got from USauto. The NOS charges about 7.5 to 8.0 at fast idle and keeps my batteries charged at 7+.
For what it is worth I have two Red Top Optima batteries wired to double the amp. Gives lots more cranking time. The car normally starts quickly. Cranks longer when heat soaked but I have never run out of battery power with the two Optima. They are about two years old and so far working as promised.
I once experience the clicking sound of my VR when I first purchased the LaSalle. It had and 8 volt battery in it at the time. When I replaced the 8 volt with the two 6 volt Optima....the clicking has never reoccurred.
Keep us advised. So frustrating I know.
Bob R.
I suspected that the Brillman ones were the same so I am glad to hear that for future reference. At least now those of us who run these regulators have a few options to choose from. Those charging numbers look about the same as what my generator outputs so I have hope yet. I do really think the clicking is from the regulator being mis-adjusted, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it accounts for the weird ammeter readings I see. As for the Optima's, I've never felt the need to run two batteries to operate. Until now apparently, mine has never given me a moments problem or doubt. It always cranks pretty rapidly even when hot. Once I get everything sorted out, I'll definitely be getting another. Until then, I'll just use the backup one I got from Tractor Supply a few months ago.
My plan of action for now is to let it ride, and keep an eye on it to see if I have it stabilized. Sadly, the only auto electric company I know of locally (and had rebuilt my generator last year) got hit by a tornado back in March. It passed within 50 yards of their shop and didn't wipe them out, just damaged them, but they aren't planning on being reopened until mid July. When that happens, I'll plan on taking my stuff in and have them test and adjust everything so my spares can just drop in.
For those interested in this topic, I did some more digging around and turned up this discussion about voltage regulators and adjustments on the Stovebolt Forums https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/816341/1.html
I think it makes for some very instructive and relevant reading to the topic at hand.