Hello, I have recently purchased a 1954 series 75 that has a drive problem. According to the numbers the engine and transmission were changed to a pair from 1952. It was shipped over to New Zealand in 1996 and used on average once per year to help with weddings in the small town where it lived.
Issues I am having:
- Engine runs badly and often stalls when either of the two drive options are selected.
- Drives ok in Low, and gives at least 3 gears. Slips and stumbles / jerks about when trying to start off in either drive position.
- P.O has marked first drive position as #3, second drive as #2 and low as #1. He said you just go through the three gears manually and that is how he has driven it. It does operate ok like this but would rather return to Automatic function.
- I am having trouble reading the transmission oil level as it's very hard to see a level on the dipstick. I follow the procedure in the shop manual but am not 100% happy with the result being definitive. I read the the 1952 Hydra-Matic cames with a round dipstick and mine is flat. The length seems consistent according to other reports here on the forum.
- The transmission fluid is not dark or burnt, is seems normal. Dextron3. The dipstick and tube were very hot to the touch just in case that is abnormal.
One Hydra-Matic diagnosis chart I found has this option on the chart "Slips in Dr. normal start in Lo." That seems to be in line with my issue at least partially. The options then given are:
- I1, Valves sticking in governor or improper valve travel.
- I5, Broken governor ring.
- G1, Valves sticking in control valve assembly.
- M1, Governor drive flange off position or rear pump mispositioning governor in parking brake bracket.
I have adjusted the TV rod as per the manual and that has not changed anything in regards to the issues I am facing.
Would the be anything associated with the 1952 transmission transplant that might be causing issues? Is the firewall bracket the same for 1952 and 1954?
I am in New Zealand so will probably need to either fix this myself or live with it. Happy to hear if anyone else has had this issue.
Thanks,
Bevan Lecky.
The first thing to sort is the rough engine, some issues with the hydra-matic can be masked cause of engine issues. I'd get the engine running smoother first.
From memory 'Lo' should only give 2 gears, 1st & 2nd. Have you adjusted the selector rod to make sure its giving you the correct selections?
Your erratic drive/slips may be down to either fluid level or sticking valves/contamination in the valve body. It may be worth while draining the fluid and checking the valve body and then filing up with fresh fluid. If you don't know how long the fluid has been in its best to change it.
You'd need to take the rear tail section off to check the governor so you could do that at the same time as the valve body.
But i'd definitely get your engine running smoother first and then test your transmission after that.
If I think of anything else i'll get back to you :)
Good luck,
Alasdair
I have to agree with Alisdair, get the engine running right first. Then set up the throttle valve rod up correctly. Also check that the selector lever shaft is set up correctly. Your transmission is a 4 speed, in D1 position, 3 speed in D2. Normal driving is D1, D2 for driving where there's a lot of hills. It is too early to diagnose the problems with the transmission but I would take a guess that your problems may lie in the valve block. Get yourself a shop manual there is a whole section on the Hydramatic and the 54 and 52 are hardly different to each other. I have a 52 manual somewhere which I can dig out if you need any specific info. I have a 54 CDV. Phil
Thanks Alisdair and Phil.
I have adjusted the gear selector (rod off, all the way forward and then back to the first detent while the lever is in the first drive position).
I will try and order some gaskets for the transmission so I can drain and check the valves and governor. Also filling with fresh fluid will give me certainty that I am in the ball park in regards to fluid level. The transmission also leaks so it may help in that regard with fresh gaskets.
As far as the engine running well, I will put the tach on today and check a few other things but it runs well in every situation other than starting off in the drive positions. No bogging down in any other gears and drives nicely. I assumed that the bogging down and stalling were a symptom of the transmission issue and not the other way around but I will go over the engine just in case.
I have access to all the relevant manuals thanks to the internet.
Thanks again for the feedback.
Bevan Lecky.
It is possible to put the valve that the transmission lever connects to incorrectly. This will cause major gear selection problems. The valve block is quite easy to remove and work on. From memory you can perform compressed air tests on the transmission with the valve block removed. Phil
Hello Bevan,
I can't help but be amused that the first reply to your post is from your Antipodean. Bravo Alasdair.
The '52 Hydra-Matic was the first year for "Dual Range" meaning there were two (D)rive options that could be selected. This made the valve body more complex than previous years. It is possible that you may have sticking valves, but based on your description - engine stalling when D is selected..., jerks about when starting out in D - I would suggest that the band adjustment be given a look. This is what the shop manual recommends after the fluid level has been checked, and the throttle and manual linkages have been set. However, proper idle speed is needed for proper band adjustment, so I agree with the others that you should get the engine in good running shape before tackling the transmission.
There is a drain plug at the rear of the bottom pan, and there is also a plug to drain the torus. Drain both if you plan to change the fluid. The governor is accessible from the side pan. You do not have to remove the tail extension. Air checks can be done with the transmission in the car, but the valve body will have to be removed.
I don't have a '54 shop manual, so I cannot determine if the throttle valve linkage relay bracket at the firewall is significantly different than the '52. My guess would be that any difference could be accounted for by the adjustment range.
What color is your series 75? Can you post some pictures?
Respectfully submited,
Christopher Winter
Hi Christopher, thanks for your comments.
I have ordered the Hydra-matic service manual that outlines the rebuild process and will tear the transmission out and rebuild it if needed. Firstly I would like to drain it, inspect the pan and screen, open the side cover and remove and inspect the valve body and inspect the governor to see if I can find anything obvious. As you suggest I will also put some air through the ports to check for operation and leaks.
It looks like just the side and bottom gasket will run me over $200 to get to NZ, so once I have the manual and have gone through the trouble shooting I might order the full rebuild kit for $800.
Here is a link the thread I started with some photos over on the general board:
http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=161488.0
Cheers! Bevan Lecky.
Hi Brian
I live in Auckland and have tons of 50s trans parts, new and used. Also many new but incomplete gasket sets, you can ring me if you want anything 0274 722713
You say it wasn't driven much before you got it. How much has it been driven since you've had it?
Our 55 sat for 25 or so years. Taking advice here I did not change the fluid. After a hundred miles or so things started to straighten out. So if you haven't, I suggest you put a couple hundred miles or so on it before you change the fluid and/or tear into things.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
It's a little bit tricky as it should not be on the road and it's fairly obvious with having no legitimate number plates. However I have managed to take a few little sneaky trips up the road a couple of miles each way and putting the car in "Dr" now seems to work about 25% of the time. I may just need to keep blowing the cobwebs out of her and as you say that may well do the trick.
In the meantime Gouldsom is helping me out with the pan and side gaskets and I have ATF on standby to carry out a basic inspection and fluid change if things do not continue to improve.
I am still not convinced I have enough fluid in the transmission either but the only way to have more certainty around that is to drain the old fluid and start with a known quantity.
As initially suggested I am making sure the engine is running correctly first too. I see the pipe from the choke stove is missing and also the rod that connects the choke to the throttle on the right side of the carb is missing too. That might explain the hard starting when cold. I have ordered the choke stove pipe and will try to make up some kind of replacement rod if I can find what the length is supposed to be.
Hopefully she just comes right!
Thanks, Bevan.
Great news, it's only taken 3+ years but I have the engine running well now and still had the same transmission issue so decided to open her up and see what the story is.
I am guessing this band should not be twisted like this and that could likely be the culprit?
I would try to see if you could adjust bands while transmission in car first
You will need special tool #J-2681-B made by Kent-Moore, other companies also make it and seen on eBay
What transmission manual did you get?
If you can't adjust bands transmission will need to be removed
Just some thoughts
Bob
EDIT: Here is a Hydra-Magic manual suggested by
@Lexi
Thanks Bob.
I have just removed the side cover to removed the valve block and test functions with compressed air.
I have the shop manual and also the Paul Marsh Hydra - matic transmission service manual so hopefully have that base covered.
The tool will be more problematic with me being all the way down the bottom of the world in New Zealand.
Ahh, I see in both my manuals and in the John Dodd rebuild video that the bands are like that. Back to the drawing board.
Have you looked at the valve block? You need to assemble it very carefully as it is possible to put it together incorrectly causing the issues you had. I wouldn't go mad tearing everything down until you have properly diagnosed the problem. You can check each part by applying air as shown in the manual. Btw the manual shown in the photo above is for the 56 on Hydramatic, a different transmission to yours.
Hi Phil, thanks for your reply.
As far as the valve block goes I have removed it and I am schooling myself on disassembly so I can be sure to get it right. I believe the valve block or governor to be the most likely culprits. Very much ignorant here though.
I do believe I have the earlier version of that manual, I will post a photo.
Quote from: Laspaz on November 19, 2023, 03:00:44 AMHi Phil, thanks for your reply.
As far as the valve block goes I have removed it and I am schooling myself on disassembly so I can be sure to get it right. I believe the valve block or governor to be the most likely culprits. Very much ignorant here though.
I do believe I have the earlier version of that manual, I will post a photo.
That's the correct manual. You could do with the 52 Cadillac shop manual as there are a few things unique for each year and for Cadillac.The bands can be adjusted by applying them with compressed air and setting them when applied. I've seen this done very successfully but I'm afraid I don't recall the exact procedure. Maybe someone can help here?
@PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 thanks Phil for the clarification on Paul Marsh manual, I was not aware he had different versions
@Laspaz thanks for posting the photo of your correct manual
I love this forum as I learn each time I'm on here
Bob
I went through the valve body today and found the governor valve in the main valve body was stuck. I think I will put the trans back together and see if that was the issue, and if not then drain it again and try something else.
Quote from: Laspaz on November 20, 2023, 12:16:04 AMI went through the valve body today and found the governor valve in the main valve body was stuck. I think I will put the trans back together and see if that was the issue, and if not then drain it again and try something else.
That sounds like it could be the culprit. Always look for the simple things first. Fingers crossed it works.
Many times, a bad hydramatic transmission is really a poorly tuned engine. Get the carb and ignition working PERFECTLY and then see how the transmission performs.
The transmission is back together after cleaning the valve body and my problem is still there. The saga continues.
When I put the car in drive the engine stalls. in D2 it runs but at about 220rpm than neutral.
It runs well otherwise.
Quote from: Laspaz on November 22, 2023, 01:49:29 AMThe transmission is back together after cleaning the valve body and my problem is still there. The saga continues.
When I put the car in drive the engine stalls. in D2 it runs but at about 220rpm than neutral.
It runs well otherwise.
I really think that you need to get the engine set up properly before blaming the transmission. Once the engine is right then set up the transmission linkage as specified in the manual. Then, hopefully, all that will be required is fine tuning the TV valve linkage (the "kickdown" linkage) at the carburettor.
I guess the issue is that the car runs fine when I put it in reverse or low, so wouldn't the engine consistently cause trouble in all gears rather than two of them?
The transmission linkage and TV rod have both been done twice today alone.
Quote from: Laspaz on November 22, 2023, 03:30:22 AMI guess the issue is that the car runs fine when I put it in reverse or low, so wouldn't the engine consistently cause trouble in all gears rather than two of them?
The transmission linkage and TV rod have both been done twice today alone.
When you had the valve body off did you do the air checks on the transmission as shown in the manual?
Quote from: PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 on November 22, 2023, 05:07:33 AMWhen you had the valve body off did you do the air checks on the transmission as shown in the manual?
I tried to but my air gun didn't have a rubber tip and I couldn't seem to get anything to work. I was also just making a massive mess blasting air and transmission fluid all around haha. I have a new gun with a rubber tip coming tomorrow, so if I have it apart again I have a better chance of conducting the test.
Quote from: Laspaz on November 22, 2023, 03:30:22 AMI guess the issue is that the car runs fine when I put it in reverse or low, so wouldn't the engine consistently cause trouble in all gears rather than two of them?
The transmission linkage and TV rod have both been done twice today alone.
The TV rod has a specific position it needs to be set to. Using a gauge on the TV valve lever on the transmission and locking the carb rod with a 1/4 inch drill bit if I remember correctly (it's in the manual). Then you make the initial adjustment to the TV rod, finally adjusting on a road test.
Great news, I was able to drive the car by putting the selector in "D" for the first time. It turns out it was a combination of all the suggestions I have received from you all, so thanks so much for the help. It was an engine issue, not a transmission issue. I will post more on the other thread.
Quote from: Laspaz on November 22, 2023, 06:20:25 PMGreat news, I was able to drive the car by putting the selector in "D" for the first time. It turns out it was a combination of all the suggestions I have received from you all, so thanks so much for the help. It was an engine issue, not a transmission issue. I will post more on the other thread.
Is it shifting through all 4 gears now?