Looks like I have a bad fuel pump and want to see what everyone thinks of rebuilt vs. new ones as sold by OPG (Kanter) and others. Cost is similar, but OEM type looks better made. My car died in an iffy location so need to get one installed asap. Opinions appreciated!
I have had bad luck with replacement fuel pumps out of the box. I have taken them apart and staked the valve into place and resealed, and that has worked. I also carry a spare, since a bad pump stranded me.
Thanks for the swift reply, David. Can you elaborate on "staking the valve into place"?
Had my original fuel pump fail on my 61 as well. I was out of state on my way home from a car show too. Had to get a flatbed truck on a Sunday to haul the car to a shop near there. The labor cost was nothing compared to what the flat bed driver charged me for getting him away from watching his football game on TV to come rescue my car. "How much is it?" "How much you got?" scene from the movie "Vacation" came to mind.
I got a new one from Fusick, plus a spare to carry in the trunk after that. It's the Ethanol they use in our gas here on the Est Coast. Eats right thru those old gaskets and internals. So if your old Cadillac still has an original one, I highly suggest you carry a spare new one. Rebuilt OEM one preferred.
OH and be sure to get a new spare fuel filter with gasket. The shop thought they would clean the filter and in the process tore the gasket in half. They of course didn't have a spare being so old. The shop was in the middle of nowhere as well. I made it as far as Lime Rock Connecticut before the gasket totally let go and began spewing gas everywhere. I pulled over on the side of the road and an old timer wrenching on his car in his garage saw me. He walked into his garage and came out with a box with the carb and fuel filter assembly from a 63 Corvette. He said "Let's see if they use the same glass bowl". It did. He gave me the filter and even installed it for me. I asked him "How much?" he said "Give me $20. I'm in no hurry to rebuild that Corvette carb. I'll get a new filter and gasket then". That was the best $20 I've ever spent on a repair. It got me home. That's when I went back to Fusicks to return the core of the bad pump and buy the spare pump and filter with gasket.
I had the same problems with fuel pumps now both my 61 and 62 have electric pumps. The 62 has the electric pump as a back up and priming pumping through the mechanical pump. The 61 has the mechanical pump gutted and the electrical pump pumping through it. both work well. the 61 has had the electrical pump for 10 years.
I have had several fuel pumps fail in last few years. There are several posts on this subject in this forum. I managed to get an original A.C. pump rebuilt by and old school guy locally. Rebuild original in you can. Rather than buy new.
My car is a 63, but I have had good luck with rebuilt fuel pumps from Terrill Machine in Texas. I tried a new Airtex off the shelf pump only to have the intake valve fall out stranding me. I bought a Spectra brand of pump only to find it was just like the failed Airtex that didn't have the valve staked. Why they don't is a mystery. I asked Terrill Machine if they staked the valve and they confirmed they did. He rebuilt my original AC pump which I'm running now and the Airtex for a spare. I staked the valve in the new Spectra for another spare pump.
Great advice, guys, and love your story, Dave. Think I'll stick a new one on there and rebuild the OEM pump for a spare. Is it possible that the low level of fuel in the glass filter housing is due to just a bad filter? I can see fuel pulsing into the bowl as the starter cranks, but it never rises past 1/4 full and the car won't start. On a parallel topic, anyone experience air bubbles disrupting fuel flow due to loose hoses at the tank? Or the fuel tank filter/sock becoming so clogged it cuts off flow?
Another vote for getting the original rebuilt. There are a number of old school rebuilders out there. Just make sure they use ethanol-resistant parts.
Mr. Gay, staking is the process of displacing metal on the top of something to retain it in a certain position. In the case of your fuel pump, there are two valvesâ€"an inlet and an outlet. These are in 1 inch bores, and are usually a press (friction) fit in their bores. Unfortunately, due to loose manufacturing tolerances, either the bore is too large, or the outer diameter of the valve is too small, and the combination will cause a valve to come loose in its bore unless it is staked in place. See the attached link to see what I am talking about. This link shows the valves unstaked, the process for staking, and the result of staking.
http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,366338
In your case, if one of the valves has come out of its bore, you can just replace it in the bore, being sure to turn it in the opposite direction of the one that remains (remember one is intake and the other outlet), then stake it in place, and then stake the other one and you will be good to go. If the diaphragm has ruptured, then you will have to replace the pump or rebuild it.
The fuel bowl may have air in it and still be working properly. You can test whether or not the fuel pump is putting out by disconnecting the line from the carburetor and directing the output of the line into a container and crank the engine to observe the output. Have someone help you with this to be sure you can observe the output and do so safely, without spilling fuel. If the fuel pump is putting out fuel, maybe you don't have a pump problem, but have an ignition problem. To further check the fuel end of things, pour a small amount of fuel into the carburetor and see if it will start and run a couple of seconds. If it starts and runs briefly, it is a fuel problemâ€"if it won't start, then there is an ignition problem.
You can have loose, cracked, or pinholed fuel hoses coming out of the tank and that would keep the fuel pump from developing enough suction to draw fuel from the tank. Likewise, if the intank strainer/filter is plugged, the fuel pump can not draw enough fuel to keep the engine running. It is time to do some troubleshooting to narrow down the problem!
Daryl Chesterman
Appreciate the detailed response, Daryl. Your pics help explain staking perfectly. I discovered the inlet valve was slightly askew in its seat, so I tapped it back and tried to start the car again with no luck. Fuel is pumping into the filter bowl, but without a pressure gauge I'm not sure if flow is sufficient. This problem began after driving for a while, then shutting the car off, then restarting and driving away. For the first few minutes, lots of stumbling, then all would smooth out. Happened a couple of times - then when returning to my house it died on the street (fairly steep). Got it restarted for a few seconds, then it gave out for good. Does that sound like an ignition issue?
Remove the air cleaner housing and situate yourself so that you can see directly down the throat of the carburetor. In the front of the carburetor bore(toward the radiator) is where the accelerator pump outlets are. Actuate the throttle linkage a full stroke, and you should see two streams of fuel being sprayed into the bores of the carburetor. If it doesn't spray a good stream of fuel with the full length actuation of the throttle linkage, that means there is insufficient fuel in the bowl of the carburetor (or the accelerator pump is bad) and then you will have to investigate why it is not getting fuel to the carburetor. If it does spray fuel, then you have an ignition problem.
Daryl Chesterman
It's spraying very nicely in a steady stream. So no chance it's the pump then? I hadn't suspected points or coil since the stumbling previously only appeared when driving the car after it had sat for 20 mins or so - then the problem disappeared. For some time I've been having problems with cold start after the car sat for a few days. It takes several tries and bumping the linkage to get the engine to fire so I had assumed the choke was to blame - but maybe not? Could this be another symptom of ignition trouble?
If the accelerator pump is spraying nicely, that indicates you have fuel in the float bowl, and the engine should run. If you have a Rochester carburetor, and there was no fuel squirting, then I would suspect the carburetor bowl is leaking into the intake through the faulty plugs in the bottom of the float bowl. After the car has not been operated for several days, remove the air cleaner housing and look in the throat of the carburetor (you will have to prop the choke butterfly open to see) and actuate the throttle. If it squirts a stream of gas, then maybe the choke is the problem with poor cold starting. After removing any prop to keep the choke butterfly open, actuating the throttle linkage should make the choke butterfly close completely (this is on a stone cold engine). If it doesn't close completely, the choke needs to be adjusted or maybe the choke linkage needs to be cleaned if it is dirty and binding. Even on a good carburetor, after the car has not been run for a couple of weeks, the gas will evaporate out of the float bowl, and you will need to pump the accelerator pedal while cranking the starter for awhile. A person doesn't need to pump the accelerator all of the time they are crankingâ€"just once every 4-5 revolutions of the engine. Once the engine starts, the choke butterfly should open a littleâ€"maybe 5/16 to 3/8 of an inch. This allows enough air to keep from flooding the engine, then the choke should continue opening by the force of the bimetal spring in the choke housing until the butterfly is completely vertical. Check out the choke/cold start problem and get that fixed then see what transpires with its drivability.
Daryl Chesterman
Thanks again for the (very!) detailed response. I definitely want to go down that path on the choke, but first I have to get it running again. Right now the engine just won't catch, hot or cold, no matter what I do with priming, linkage or choke rod prodding. So maybe you're correct in suspecting that something in the ignition isn't right. I haven't had the car all that long, but looks as if wires and cap are recent and good. I had planned on a Pertronix conversion anyway, so I'll go ahead and do that while adding one of their coils and see if things don't improve.
It may be wise to determine the current issue causing the engine not to run before adding new possibilities. Check the voltage at the coil with the ignition switch in the run position. With a good battery, you should see about 7 or so volts. Be sure the points are opening and closing. Run a point file between the contacts to be sure they are clean and making good contact. They should have about 16 thousands gap. Put a spark plug in the number 1 cylinder wire and touch it to ground while cranking to see if there is a spark. No spark may be a bad coil. Get the issue sorted out before doing any alterations that may cause other issues making a diagnosis even more difficult.
I agree with David. Don't install Pertronix until it starts. If you suspect ignition problem, I'd clean and adjust the points you have. Replace them only if they are badly burned. They do wear and go bad gradually. I had a similar situation with a 60 CDV 390. I could even see a spark, but not strong enough to fire. Also check out the wires, and cap and rotor. Who knows what the PO installed or when. Many of the replacement parts are made overseas today and the quality is not there. They look fine, but they are not.
Here's a photo. Looks like some corrosion on the points, but enough to keep it from starting? Hmm. I did find some oil on the distrib base plate seeping into the points area. Not a lot, but it's there. Still have to dig up a multi meter to check out the coil.
From my house those points look like they were in the Titanic...
Those points are BAD. Maybe a points file will clean them up enough to work but they certainly look nasty from here.
I wouldn't even bother trying to file those pointsâ€"they are bad!!! Get a new set of NAPA Echlin points (I have had good luck with them) and also get a new condenser, as the condenser you have may be what is causing the points to burn. Also look at the inside of the distributor cap to see what kind of condition the 8 terminals are in where the spark jumps from the rotor to the distributor cap. If they look to be badly corroded, a new cap and rotor are also needed. I think if you set the dwell on the points to 30 degrees and time the engine at 5-10 degrees BTDC (the more advance the better as long as there is no spark knock on acceleration) you will probably find that your engine will run very nicely! Remember, before you try to start it after the tune up, be sure the choke butterfly closes completely when you give the throttle linkage a full stroke. Immediately after the engine starts, the choke butterfly should open 5/16-3/8 of an inch to keep the engine from flooding, then the bimetal coil in the choke housing should gradually open it all the way once it is warmed up. Be sure the butterfly opens up completely when the engine is warm.
Daryl Chesterman
Off to the Pertronix emporium tomorrow. Now if I can just locate that 12 to 6v resistor to bypass.
Quote from: MidModCad on January 19, 2021, 12:59:13 AM
Off to the Pertronix emporium tomorrow. Now if I can just locate that 12 to 6v resistor to bypass.
I would definitely replace the points and condensor before doing anything with pertronix! Seems the intelligent thing to would be make sure the engine runs before throwing more crap at it...but it's your car...
Quote from: MidModCad on January 19, 2021, 12:59:13 AM
Off to the Pertronix emporium tomorrow. Now if I can just locate that 12 to 6v resistor to bypass.
Once more, for the umpteenth time :), there is no ballast resistor in 1960 and up Cadillacs with points ignition. There is a resistor WIRE that runs from the engine side of the firewall to the coil. On the passenger compartment side of the firewall the wire that connects to the resistor wire is a switched, pink, 12 gauge wire that originates at the ignition switch. THAT is the wire that you want to tap into for the 12 volt source for a Pertronix system --- you can eliminate the resistor wire entirely, or tape/seal off the coil connector end and put the wire aside in case you ever want to go back to points again.
But I agree also that you should get the current points system working to make sure there are no other problems that need to be addressed and to make sure the no-start condition is electrical (as I strongly suspect) and not fuel related. Points are cheap enough.
It's highly recommend to get the car running and drivable with the point ignition before installing the electronic ignition. That way you know it is right before you install the new ignition parts. To properly install the electronic ignition module in the distributor, you will most likely have to pull the distributor to shim the shaft endplay to get the proper clearance for the magnet ring. Just getting that done and reinstalling the distributor can open a whole new can of worms to sort out if it won't start. If it ran before you took it apart, at least you'll have an idea where to start looking for the new problem.
As a fellow '61 owner who has also had fuel pump issues (though technically my Dad as he was behind the wheel at the time) when replacing fuel pumps be sure to check the cap on what you send out and what you get back. A factory correct pump will have 'AC' stamped into the cap. Our original pump had that stamp but the rebuilt one we got back didn't. That required some extra calls to McVey's to get a correct cap back. I think that cap got lost when my Dad replaced the pump that failed.