Hello to you all,
This is my first post to the forum and I hope to keep some semi-regular posting on my project, whilst this is by no means my first restoration, she is my first Cadillac ( and boy have I learned some lessons :P )
Lessons learned:
- deep pockets help (Caddy's are an expensive addiction)
- parts availability is better than I expected (not chevy c10 or VW bug standard, but not awful either...as long as you have the $$$)
- she is overengineered (why use one bolt when you can use twelve)
- she is a real heavyweight (curb weight is marginally less than the titanic)
Anyway, I bought this tired old girl about 5 years ago, I literally fell in love with her ... I've wanted a 52/53 coupe since I was about 7 and I just let my heart rule over my head 😂 ... I promised myself I'd start work on her once I'd finished my other projects ( 4 rebuilds ) and that day finally arrived about a month ago. I've started stripping her down and I'm getting to grips with the work needed... she's fought me the whole way, she's a miserable old thing some days and she'll turn a 5 minute job into a days work but I'm still smitten ... lately I've worked on old impalas and c20s and I've always had old French Citroens but this '52 is in a different league ... (my wife reckons I've got a bit of an Arnie Cunningham thing going on 😂)
She's the rattiest mismatched old beast and she's exactly what I've wanted. She had a front end smash years back and has various years front end trim (the frame is straight), the engine isn't matching numbers, the hydrolectrics are shot, there is some rust (but not too much), the chrome is awful, the interior is terrible and she needs complete rebuilding
But, this is exactly the car I wanted ... I do not want and original car to worry about and to restore to factory ... she will be a clean rebuild but with modifications that I want and a mild custom interior and mild custom paint colours ... I'm not going to cut/chop anything and I'm not switching out the 331.
If I'd have bought a better car I'd have felt bad to not keep her factory, in this condition she's lucky she wasn't parted out
The good:
- she's the car I've always promised myself
- the engine is smooth
- the body isn't too bad
- the frame is very very solid
- she's nicely undersealed
The bad:
- front end will need fine tuning to fit nicely (A job I hate)
- there is rust in the roof
The ugly:
- the chrome is terrible
- the glass is delaminating in places
Wish me luck,
Shane
Shane,
Looks to be a substantial project, and yet, she's on all fours, and, apparently, the engine "runs smooth." To what extent is it road worthy? Do you have any history? Many of us truly enjoy narratives and pictures of the resortation process, and I hope we can look forward to observing your progress. James
Shane,
Are you sure you have a 1952? From the photo it looks like a 1950 Series 62 Coupe DeVille, similar to the 51 and 52 models but with enough changes to make a difference in some parts.
Thanks for the replys folks, yes she's a very very substantial project ... this is purely for the love of it, she'll never be worth the hours financially ::)
The 331 isn't her original engine but it's very quiet and smooth ( you almost can't tell it's running unless you gun it ) ... and the front end has been rebuilt and she's got fairly good brakes ... she was running/driving until I took the interior out and stripped the front end bodywork
She has no electrics though, only the starter and interior lights work/worked as the loom is trash ... :'(
The frame is original to the body and that's a '52 and the engine and transmission are '52 ... the interior parts threat I've stripped have also had some date marks (the clock) abd that's 1952 as well... but, you're right to notice the front end ... the grill/sidelights/side valance panels are from what appears to be a 1950 or possibly 51 car (I found a clue that the front valance panel has paint and aging that matches a mismatched sideskirt on the rear, this leads me to believe that she was (at least partially) donated to by a single parts car, likely a 1950 coupe ... but who knows ::)
As for history, I know very little, I know shes originally a SF Bay Area car, and that's backed up by the corrosion (it's more what I'd expect from a seaside car than from a really damp climate car) ... the old title has her previous San Francisco details and she was last titled in 1993 ... the condition suggests to me she didn't do much in the last 30 years other than deteriorate :-X
I can't remember the production date, but I'll check the vin again when I remember 8)
Regards,
Shane
Just spent 5 hours stripping the interior floor and I reckon there was about 20lbs of pitch/tar in the footwells ... what a joy that was >:D ... see the pics
Still content with the floorpan overall ... 8)
So the data plate suggests that she is a series 62, CDV, 1952 and was originally Aleutian green with Dark Green Swiss Dot Bedford & Light Green Metallic Leather interior... this ties in with what I'm finding under the hideously bad white paint job...
Accessories:
Factory delux heater, Factory tinted glass, dealer fitted Autronic eye, dealer fitted radio/foot switch
As for other anomalies on the data plate ... there is a number "10" stamped alongside the accessories section and I have no idea what this means ??? ... see pic ???
Anyone got any ideas?
Regards,
Shane
With those two staples in the bottom of the ID Plate, could this vehicle have been a SO (Special Order) build?
Bruce. >:D
So great to hear that the engine is in wonderful condition, and that you can likely get the car to be increasingly improved for roadworthiness. Obviously you made a good choice in selecting this vehicle, and as you initially stated, putting efforts into getting it back into reasonable shape. Not with standing the extraordinary effort you are making, it must be reassuring to know that, over time, you'll have a sweet running machine to enjoy and present to others who will appreciate it. Keep those pictures and narratives coming. James
I didn't know that is what those staples on the data plate meant ... thanks Bruce, even more reason to send away for her build sheet 8)
Thanks James, I reckon she's the right choice for me, I've had trailer queens in the past and I worried about where I parked them, worried about the weather and just didn't drive them enough ... it was actually quite counterproductive owning them for me. She's definitely gonna be a driver and she'll never be a show car but I reckon she'll turn a head or two ;D
Thanks folks,
Shane
So.... more stripping done (insert innuendo here) 🤣 ... gutted the trunk and removed the horrible soundproofing. The whole underside of the car and the inner rear wings are covered in a very thick stippled underseal ... it's seems to have worked except in the spare wheel well (which is rotted out)
Got the headliner and bows out (recorded positions and photographed them as I did) and guess what ... yep more rust 😂 (I knew it was there already so no surprises) there is a small section above both doors that'll need a patch cut and fitted ... on the plus side, I'm surprised how easy the headliner was to remove and so glad it isn't tucked under the glass as in some classics.
As for what I'll do next ... I'm not sure, I need to wire wheel the whole interior and I'll need to remove the underseal from the trunk 😪 ... neither are "fun" jobs ... I really want to get the rear wings off so I can assess them and the inner wings, and I'd love to drop the tank to assess that ... who knows ??? ...I not even going to think about fabricating repair panels yet (that said, I'll probably use a modified Shoebox Ford wheel well panel)
If anyone has a magic tip for removing this underseal stuff please let me know ...
Regards,
Shane
No idea why my pics always seem rotated ... they aren't like that in my albums ? ... sorry
Shane,
I get the entire psychology of the trailer queen. This '07 XLR I own is such an extraordinary car, so much so, I don't feel comfortable driving it for all the reasons you stated. Your sweat equity and your saving your car from the junk yard are a lasting satisfactions. As you likely know, a number of members have "blasted rust and undercoating." You might consider opening up a new thread topic that focuses solely on this work--- as you well know, any approach that can save time, effort, and your lungs is worth knowing. James
Thanks James 👍
I've always enjoyed the "sweat equity" element of car restoration although it makes it impossible for me to watch car restoration shows on tv. I really can't stand this TV approach recently of spending $5000 on a car, putting $1000 of parts and 100 hours of labour into it and selling it for $6500 to call a $500 profit ::) ... at that rate a 12 year old in a Taiwanese sweatshop makes more that me an hour 🤣🤣🤣
I'm back in the shop tomorrow so I think I'll have a go at the rear wing removal ... then maybe some more underseal scraping ... then maybe some more scraping ...🙃
Might start a thread on underseal as you suggest, I'll try to take some more pics for it first ... from what I gather it was never a factory option on these '52 cars ... as for benefits vs problems, I've seen cars where the underseal managed to ensure water held against the metal and rusted more than a bare steel car, however the variables seems to be:
- application thoroughness
- thickness
- areas applied
- prevailing climate
- base metal quality
- body shape/edges etc.
Overall the '52 cdv certainly has good quality steel, the edges are well coated, the climate was salty, the undercoat was well applied and thickly but not everywhere .... the rust I've found so far was not undercoated.... and I've not had ANY place on the car that was undercoated show any water/rust ingress. In the trunk (where there was a water leak) when I scraped back the undercoat it's shiny bare metal underneath 👍👍👍
SO perhaps leave the original good undercoat in place? Apparently, moisture trapped even in the passenger compartment caused rust on your roof. So knocking off the rust begs the question, what goes over those rust prone surfaces... James
I wish ...😃👍 ... unfortunately I need to get her back to bare metal for several reasons:
- to assess the entire bodyshell
- to ensure I have no rust hidden under the current undercoat
- I'll be adding new rustproofing/seamsealer/undecoat and I don't trust applying anything new over old underseal
As for my personal choice of floorpan treatment:
- Strip to bare metal
- Cut out old rust
- Weld in fresh metal (I worked 11 years as a metalsmith so making custom flush panels doesn't bother me)
- Prime (corrosion resistant primer used in shipping industry)
- seamsealant to sharp edges and corners etc.
- Corrosion resistant topcoat
- Underseal the floorpan and vulnerable points
- cavity wax
This pretty much what I do on all my cars ... works well for daily drivers and is very very tough/durable.
I used to use POR15 ... found it doesn't work on flexible areas (I consider the Coupe way way too flexible in the body) and has the same drawbacks as powder coating. I have found Upol raptor good in solid floorpans but it's not good on sharp edges ... (when I say "not good" I mean as corrosion resistance, it's great for flatbeds)...
I know this whole topic is a hornets nest, so each to their own, but I've found what works for me in my climate with my application regime 😎👍
If your underseal is of the same composition as the one that I have on my '56 Oldsmobile (which I almost have down to bare metal now), you might try to use petrol or a degreaser to dissolve the tar/bitumen like substance. I used a paint scraper to remove the thickest parts and the remains were removed with old petrol from my fueltank.
Good luck!
Jérôme
Sounds like it is, so far I've used a chisel, a few scrapers and it gets the heavy stuff off in large chunks ... I'll give petrol a go 👍
Spent another few hours on the underseal today ...🙃 focused on the trunk ... I've put before and after pics below 👍
There's still some to do but it's getting there
.. slowly
For a bit of interest I removed the passenger side rear wing .. what and amazing piece of metal stamping it is too ... 8' long and those curves for the fin ... really amazing, imagine the cost of that today 😲😲😲
The condition of the wing is pretty good, it's got a couple of bad repairs and holes but it's straight and won't need much to restore ... very interesting to see what looks like a quality inspectors mark inside it 😃
The inner wing/body underneath it in astoundingly good condition ... beautiful original paint and ...more underseal 🙃... absolutely no corrosion at all ... yay
Saving the best til last ....
Having read more about vin/build numbers I thought I'd double check the frame numbers ... and guess what ... the engine and frame match 😎👍 ... I am not sure why I thought they didn't ... maybe I was thinking of the body number ??? ...I think it's because the dealer I bought her from was so shady (he was a scumbag, once I'd paid for her and arranged shipping he stopped answering calls and closed up his shop to stop the driver loading her ... I ended up using a friends phone and threatening police and legal action before he eventually opened up and let the guy load it... bear in mind this was a dealer, not a private seller !!!)
So I've always assumed the worst ... I'm absolutely delighted to find this out today, the title/vin/engine numbers all match ...😎
So ... a really really great day so far👍
Quote from: Bob Schuman on May 27, 2021, 09:52:19 AM
Shane,
Are you sure you have a 1952? From the photo it looks like a 1950 Series 62 Coupe DeVille, similar to the 51 and 52 models but with enough changes to make a difference in some parts.
Shane,
I'm nearing the end of a frame-on restoration of a 1952 Series 62 Sedan, so am enjoying following your posts. It is terrific that your CDV has turned out to be numbers-matching!
The grill and front bumper assembly are definitely from a 1950, as Bob Schuman said. Those who know the 1950-53 generation Cadillacs would spot the difference easily, but no one else would. :)
The discussion of the undercoating is interesting. It sounds as if the undercoating did the job in preventing rust, even though your car is very rusty and has been in a rust-prone environment. Of course that is yet to be fully verified... Many people don't know that Cadillac authorized the use of undercoating by dealers in the 1950s (and presumably 1960s), and provided some written "advice". The undercoating was supplied by Cadillac (at least in some circumstances) and had a GM label on the can. I can't guarantee this was true in 1952, but can verify it for later 1950s. I have a GM accessories brochure that advertised the undercoating as a dealer option and it shows an image of the can. BTW, I am convinced that the quality of the application had as much to do with the effectiveness of the undercoating in preventing corrosion as did the composition of the material used. Of course, Cadillac promoted undercoating at least as much for its sound insulation as for protection against corrosion. All that said, I do understand that we don't know if your undercoating was original to the new car or was applied years later. As best as I can tell, mine was original...
Best of luck, and please do continue with the updates!
John Emerson
My '61 had an undercoating as well. The removal process was:
• Eye & ear protection
• Gloves
• Handheld heat gun
• multi-tool with scraper attachment
• Patience to work in small sections at a time
It took a long time to get the inner fender wells and other support members cleaned up so they could be powder coated.
Thanks for your replies folks ...
You're right about that front end John👍 ... thankfully I knew from the start it wasn't original and considering the cost I'll probably not replace it with a '52 front end ... depends on availability
I've seen some debate about underseal and originality ... under the hood of the CDV is also undersealed and there's a rather worn sticker advertising the underseal brand ... I'll take a pic and put it up sometime 👍... my feeling on the underseal on this '52 is that it is dealer applied, certainly when new.
Sounds like you know the "joy" of removing the inner wing sealant too Andrew 🙃 ... as you said, patience is key (not an enjoyable task at all)
A short installment today, had a few hours to spend on the old girl, initially I continued my underseal removal saga and then decided I needed a less strenuous job as its too hot in the shop ... ended up removing trim, also not one of my favourite jobs, but it all has to be done. Most of it came off fairly easily but I'm stumped as to how to get the beltline trim off ... particularly under the rear quarter windows 😲 ... I'm reluctant to try a pop it off without making sure I've removed everything else (screws/fasteners)
I do love this pillarless coupe's style though ... beautiful even in this condition 😎
For those about to remove bitumenous underseal I have some advice:
Whilst the heat gun and scraper works well it's smelly and uncomfortable, I have found a sharpened paint scraper (or wide chisel) and hammer far more enjoyable and just as effective and a little faster.
The last pic an interesting little sidenote, she has soft putty on the interior steel over sharp edges that was factory applied ... I've never seen this on any car before 8)
I owned two '56 SDVs--- soft puddy was used in certain areas --- as I vividly recall, the fog lights had that sealant along with a gasket. James
Thanks James, its a new one on me, I've not seen putty used before ... must be Cadillac thing ... Cool 8)
It appears that it's been used over sharp edges, corners and bolt/screw ends ... I'm guessing to reduced damage to the interior panels and/or reduce squeaking/noise with body flex or vibration.
Spent a another dirty day digging at underseal and seamsealer. I did a little bit on the firewall and removed some pieces including starting to remove the heater element cover. No exciting progress really... but as always it's relaxing and easy work 👍
Removing the seamsealer from the firewall (driver side) proved successful and happily there's no rust or filler in the panel 😎
As for my next work, I still have to remove the rest of the beltine and window trim and I've got to look at removing the steering column ... no matter what car youre working on that's usually a pain in the a$$ so I'm sure that'll be fun 🙃 ... after that, finish the underseal removal then I'll hopefully rotisserie the body and start the daunting underseal removal underneath ... 😪
Wish me luck !
Only a couple of hours today ... lovely weather and family drawing me away from car work 😁
Got the Harrison heater unit out and took off the firewall insulation ... lookin' good
Did a small amount of stripping today ... the car, not me, I'd be a terrible stripper, I've got no rhythm 🤣🤣🤣
Working on the roof/windshield surround trim ... I've gathered than the windshield "upright" A pillar windshield surround on both sides is held by a few screws but it also held in by the windshield rubber using J shape tabs >:D ... I'm guessing they come out and go in with the windshield ...so I'll probably cut the windshield rubber.
The bottom stainless windshield surround has 2 screws at either end and is held by straight tabs in the rubber windshield molding that pry out easily ... but, it's also held by the wiper shaft spindles, so I'll have to pull those ... aaargh :-\
In other news, I have found minor damage from the front end shunt to the upper driver's firewall ... I was a bit concerned the it had shifted the A pillar back or inboard, good news, it definitely hasnt ... measurements and angles are equal both sides 👍
Another couple of hours done today ... the stainless drip rail/gutter strip came off really really easily 👍 ... a lot easier than lots of cars I've worked on 😎 ... came off with a polished chisel (no hammering needed) best part is, the gutter is in pretty good condition, I expected it to be rusted through but it's all there.
Found an old matchbook in the heater duct ... 🤣 ... classy stuff 🤣 (if the previous owner had spent more time on maintaining the car and less time on call lines perhaps I'd have less work to do)
I have no build sheets for this car but while I was moving the rear seat base I found this tag ... very cool 😎
I assume the production date is 3/10/52 ... I'm unsure what the other codes are:
4610488 6
9.8 52 44 b
It's not the vin ... at least not the vin of this car? ... who knows?
That tag will be the seat frame mfg. date, so the car build date will be a little later than that.
Spent a while removing the the door top and beltline trim today ... easier than I'd thought 👍
Procedure:
Remove vent window and it's winder unit and front window runner channel (fairly obvious), unscrew the small self tapping screws from the interior top portion of the upper beltline trim, gently pry the end tab (rear facing) ends from the door, lever the top strip from the interior side of the door until it pops up, work along the strip until it completely pops out, the undo the screws holding the lower beltline trim to the top of the exterior door skin, pry the rear facing tab at the rear of the door until it allows the trim to slid off, gently pry from underneath until it unclips ... easy 8)
More trim removal today ...
Took the beltline trim from the rear window and quarterlights, fairly straightforward ... unfortunately there's a lot of rot under the quarterlight strips but at least the rear window seems mostly sound 👍
It's odd, the quarterlight window sills are rotten but the sills and panels below them are pristine with no rust, clean original paint ... I suppose it's the underseal👍