I acquired my family's 1957 Cadilliac Biarritz after my mother and fathers passing. I remember sanding on the tailfins as a young lady (10). Last car show in Ohio was August 2022. Stored from August 2022 to May 5, 2023. On May 5th I had it delivered to my home. At pick-up had to spray Ether to get it started. On delivery it started up. Drove it 6 miles and the car quit running and could not get it jump started so we had it towed home. Battery date 7/2022. Replaced the voltage regulator and drove it out again. Stalled after about 9 miles, engine very hot, however Temperature gauge was midway and did not demonstrate overheating and the car died. Same issue as first, could not get it to fire. It appeared as lack of fuel coming into the bell. Towed again. Replaced the Ignition coil as we were thinking this may be part of the problem. After installation, let the car idle for 38 minutes and then it quit running. Today we put a new fuel pump on and took it for a spin around the block for 5 minutes, let it idle in the driveway for 35 minutes, started to idle rough and quit at the 35 minute mark. Pushed in back into the garage. I would really love if someone could advise us. Kindly, L. Plesz
It could very well be vapor lock with this ethanol laden gasoline. The temperature gauge shouldn't be above 1/4 on the gauge. Have you checked the antifreeze?
I don't know that I would trust that idle test, these cars really were not designed to do that so stalling after 35 mins I don't think really tells us anything for sure.
I think the first thing to do is for sure determine if its a fuel or spark issue. Fuel should be pretty easy. When it stalls shoot some starting fluid in there and if it fires and runs for a few seconds on the fluid you know its a lack of good fuel and can go down that path. If it doesn't fire off that then check for spark.
An inductive timing light to test for spark may not be a bad investment if you are going to keep this car and work on it yourself. Since they are really of no use on modern cars you can usually find them for sale used pretty cheap. If you are looking look for a dwell tachometer also, often called an engine analyzer. You can likely pick up nice quality used ones both for under $50. The dwell tach can be used in this case to further diagnose the ignition if there isn't spark with the timing light.
If there is spark and it didn't fire with starting fluid then that is yet a different path of troubleshooting.
We are all here and will help how ever we can. If you are really stuck give us your rough location and maybe there is someone not too far away that would be willing to come help in person.
Oh ya and feel free to ask any questions about advise we give here if you don't know for sure how to do something like even spraying the starting fluid. Many of us here are at least middle age or old and grew up with starting fluid and likely lost some eyebrows in the process of learning how to respect it.
Question for the group should a 57 have an oil bath air cleaner? If so what is the best way to get starting fluid in such a thing? We don't want to make it more complicated than it needs to be and we also don't want anyone to burn off anything while at the same time making it a valid test.
Just a suggestion, I would use carb cleaner rather that starting fluid, better option, when tsting for fuel delivery problems.
Thanks for the help. Kindly, L.Plesz
Check also the fuel filter!
You've thrown all of the suspect "parts" at your car, and they've not helped. Along the way, you've discovered that your engine's cooling system is partly blocked, and if your engine reaches a "heat soaked" condition, the car will stall and NOT start. Whether this is the problem or not the major cause for the challenge, you must address this. If the engine starts and runs relatively well for a certain number of minutes and then the heat gauge starts moving toward the middle, you've got an issue that needs immediate attention. (as mentioned above, the normal gauge sets at 1/4, and any reading above that 1/4 mark, is reason to be concerned) There's a lot of information about flushing the ENTIRE cooling system so that debris from the engine's water jackets does not clog a freshly "de-scale" radiator. By all means, explore EXPERT cooling system cleaning services-- a thorough cleansing of your entire cooling system may solve your frustrating challenge, and An over-heated engine offen is a costly expense. Hope this helps, James
Old cars can try your patience but once you get it sorted it will be a lot of fun.
An important thing to remember is their use was different at a different point in time. They really were not designed to idle for extended periods of time. None of them. Traffic and traffic control were not the concern of today. If you live in an area of heavy traffic and extended traffic lights there may be updates or habits you might have to consider.
If your area uses blended fuel (ethanol) That os a significant issue, particularly for old cars...best to avoid it. Fuel quality was Much better in 1957...getting the same quality fuel is almost impossible and certainly expensive. 104 octane with lead.
Does your Biarritz have dual quad carburation? . They can be a challenge.
Do you have the factory service manual? They are valuable if not necessary aid.
Good news is you can lob questions here and sort a lot of perspectives and suggestions.
Post some pictures!
I may have missed this so I apologize if I did.
Have you replaced the condenser?
Those are often overlooked because they last a while. But when they fail, they can do what you are describing. That happened on our 70.
Our 55 had an issue with the resistor on the firewall. It would break down when hot. Autozone actually had one and it wasn't too expensive.
Good luck and post some pictures.
Jeff R
I had this problem when I was first getting my 57 on the road. Turned out to be a dirty fuel tank. It would suck up particles, engine would quit and then it wouldn't restart until later when the particles settled. I removed the tank, cleaned and sealed it, got rid of the original rusty steel fuel line and ran a new aluminum line from the back of the car to the front, put an electric fuel pump on it and never had the fuel problem ever again.
I would like to recommend you change every rubber fuel line with new stock that is resistant to new fuel formulas. if those lines are older and you start running gas thru they the can fall part and risk a fire.
If you have an old stock fuel pump it may have diagrams that are not compatible with ethanol fuel.
I replaced my 59 Biarritz one with a nos one and it lasted 6 months and then I had fuel issues similar to yours.
When I opened up the pump the diaphragms had turned into mush.
There are vacuum draw, PSI and fuel output tests you can run to test the operation of the fuel pump. A vacuum gauge is a helpful tool to conduct some of these tests. A search of this Forum should locate more information on this topic. Also, you did not describe what the engine did when it stalled. My experience is that if it is a fuel starvation issue the engine will sputter a bit before it dies. If electrical the tendency is for the engine to suddenly quit. Not a hard and fast rule, but based on my experience a potential indicator. Clay/Lexi
Thank you all so much for your advice. To answer some of the questions, The first item changed was a new fuel filter. When we first installed the new fuel pump, it was a beautiful flow into the filter. So we knew the old one was not good. She started up and sounded perfect. Drove really well around the block. I truly believe the car has a fuel starvation issue. It starves only when the car is warmed up, then stalls like it ran out of gas. We think it is a vapor lock, but we do not know why this is happening. I have spoken to the car club friends since my father was the Regional Director and they never knew the car to have any of what I am experiencing. It is a dual carburetor. Historically, the valve seats were changed in order to use unleaded fuel. ?? Maybe I need to get the gas lines blown out and clean the gas tank. As well as take the above offer of looking at the coolant system. I can say on the second drive the temp gauge was at 1/2. Saturday the gauge was at 1/4 but still stalled. To answer the above, yes, the car gets a rough idle and sounds like it is running out of gas and when we looked and tried to start it, we could see NO fuel getting into the fuel filter. So perplexed. Kindly, L. Plesz
Quote from: Rogerscadillac on June 27, 2023, 10:38:15 PMThank you all so much for your advice. To answer some of the questions, The first item changed was a new fuel filter. When we first installed the new fuel pump, it was a beautiful flow into the filter. So we knew the old one was not good. She started up and sounded perfect. Drove really well around the block. I truly believe the car has a fuel starvation issue. It starves only when the car is warmed up, then stalls like it ran out of gas. We think it is a vapor lock, but we do not know why this is happening. I have spoken to the car club friends since my father was the Regional Director and they never knew the car to have any of what I am experiencing. It is a dual carburetor. Historically, the valve seats were changed in order to use unleaded fuel. ?? Maybe I need to get the gas lines blown out and clean the gas tank. As well as take the above offer of looking at the coolant system. I can say on the second drive the temp gauge was at 1/2. Saturday the gauge was at 1/4 but still stalled. To answer the above, yes, the car gets a rough idle and sounds like it is running out of gas and when we looked and tried to start it, we could see NO fuel getting into the fuel filter. So perplexed. Kindly, L. Plesz
Carry around a can of starting fluid. When it starts to die/just after it dies, squirter some in the air cleaner then hit the key. If she runs, it's most likely fuel. If she doesn't, it's most likely electrical.
It could also be pinholes in the fuel line that allow the pump to suck air. They won't visibly leak unless they are really bad. I capped my fuel line at the tank, and then filled it with mineral spirits at the pump end. Then I pressurized the line with shop air-- Not 100 pounds worth but enough that there was pressure in there. After a few minutes, I saw moisture on the lines from under the clips. The pressure pushed the mineral spirits the other way and identified the holes that didn't normally show.
Good luck and report back.
Jeff R
Might have a partially clogged fuel line "sock" in the tank, not sure the 57 had one though.
Does the dual carbs add any extra possibilities to this puzzle? Are these 2 2's or 2 4's? Either way I assume all barrels operate all the time?
If as far as you know it was running fine fairly recently bad fuel seems like a possibility. Water or crud can do weird things when it gets sloshed around and could explain the issues you are having. Hooking up another fuel source can be a good way to eliminate the fuel as a problem but can be tricky to do neatly and safely especially if you need to drive the car to be sure.
You mention a fuel filter? I presume this is a glass bowl sort of thing? When it dies remove the bowl and collect a decent sample in some sort of container. That will tell you if its able to deliver fuel then if you let it sit you can see if there is any separation happening which would indicate something like water.
Quote from: Rogerscadillac on June 27, 2023, 10:38:15 PMThank you all so much for your advice...yes, the car gets a rough idle and sounds like it is running out of gas and when we looked and tried to start it, we could see NO fuel getting into the fuel filter. So perplexed. Kindly, L. Plesz
Another possibility is that the big nut on top of the fuel pump, called the strainer nut, may be leaking air, (if your pump is so equipped). If so, and not sealing properly, it will leak air into the pump. It won't leak gas externally, so a visual check won't show you anything. I think your '57 pump still has this nut, which on my '56 is 7/8 inch size if memory serves. So it is big and you can't miss it, if your pump has it. I believe once removed there should also be a metal sock screen there, (at least back in the day). It could be plugged with debris from your old fuel line. If you are sucking in air though, the operation of the fuel pump will be impaired. As the engine heats up and/or with an increase in speed, both factors may increase the load on the pump as more fuel required and if an air leak, such might even increase. If it is not operating properly you can find yourself "running out of gas", so to speak. Will usually fire up after sitting a bit and re-cranking her over. Had a brand new pump out of the box do this. Leaky strainer nut on a new pump. A vacuum test I believe would reveal this. In my case I carefully wrapped the threads of the strainer nut with gas fitter's tape, (not teflon), which fixed it.
On the now defunct old CLC Mid Century Cadillac Forum, Administrator Lou Commisso ran tests on his award winning 1956 Eldo. Lou took video shots of the glass fuel filter with a timer. As I recall, there were noticeable fuel reductions after a few minutes of idling. Severe after some 15 - 20 minutes. Car was just idling in his driveway. Lou speculated that the fuel supply issue would further decrease perhaps to even a non-running condition with more time, so he shut the car off. Your car with much original equipment and perhaps even more ethanol based fuel than what Lou was using, things have not got any better.
Also, I found V63's comments above very interesting, which in part said, quote: "An important thing to remember is their use was different at a different point in time. They really were not designed to idle for extended periods of time. None of them. Traffic and traffic control were not the concern of today. If you live in an area of heavy traffic and extended traffic lights there may be updates or habits you might have to consider."
Some of the mid '50s Caddies I have owned with the exception of one, exhibited some of the problems you noted. That said, there are also posts on this Forum that discuss the improper manufacture of some of the new fuel pumps for our cars. In some cases frustrated owners opened the new pump to "stake" the fuel valves in order to promote proper sealing and non-movement in order to properly function. Yes, very troublesome to learn of this on new parts, but also seems to be an issue in some cases. Think Airtex was the most troublesome reported in that regard. You should also confirm that all related equipment is OEM, such as carb, intake manifold, etc. Does the '57 use an insulator block and if so, is it there? Once answered you can be more assured that any tests are indeed relevant. I once worked on a '56 Coupe and had lots of similar issues. Found out later that it had a later carburetor along with an insulator block, (which should not have been on a '56). Car had a vacuum leak because of the slight ill fitting insulating block which affected how the car ran. Clay/Lexi
my low mile 67 runs great then dies fuel bowl empty,let cool down fuel flows temp guage nowhere near half way point=vapor lock
A concern with using 'low grade' low octane fuel we are forced to use today is with the high compression engine of a 1957 Cadillac. It will have detonation issues, pinging. The easiest (not the best!!!) common 'fix' is to retard the timing which increases engine temperature. You may find your timing is retarded from factory recommendation.
I never realized the benefits of LEAD but now that it is absent from pump fuel, and you run engines such as these on the proper octane with LEAD, WOW the results are absolutely amazing. There is a new found smoothness and quietness. Nothing short of amazing. Also I notice the improvements are not limited to high compression engines, even a lawn mower runs so much better that was designed to run on low grade fuels. (I am speaking of authentic lead additive NOT marketing substitutes)
Your 57 Cadillac uses HOT exhaust to heat directly under the carburetor(s) you will notice the paint is burned off the center of the intake manifold. If your use of the car will not be in sub zero temperatures I suggest BLOCKING those passages because that added heat combined with alcohol blended fuels is a source of many drivability issues. The least of which the excessive heat can boil the fuel out of the carburetor bowls so your next start is labored having to refill them first.
Engine vacuum is very important, you must verify it is sound, verify the distributor vacuum advance circuit and device is sound. I would temporarily disconnect and eliminate the vacuum wipers (as if they work🤦🏻�♂️) until you get the engine sorted.
Quote from: V63 on June 29, 2023, 07:25:57 AMI never realized the benefits of LEAD but now that it is absent from pump fuel, and you run engines such as these on the proper octane with LEAD, WOW the results are absolutely amazing. There is a new found smoothness and quietness. Nothing short of amazing. Also I notice the improvements are not limited to high compression engines, even a lawn mower runs so much better that was designed to run on low grade fuels. (I am speaking of authentic lead additive NOT marketing substitutes)
I sometimes add "lead substitute" to Lexi and I always note that the engine runs more quietly and smoother. Enough to take notice of. Same, prior to engine rebuild. Like what V63 noted, with respect to quietness. Unlike the old lead additives that were available, I am sure these new ones do not contain lead, but in my opinion they still seem to do the job as based on how quiet the engine sounds once added. Whatever is in there must provide some extra "cushion" so when the valves open and close noise is reduced. Can't be a bad thing (I hope), but it certainly adds to the cost of a fill up. Any comments? Could whatever is in these new lead substitue additives over time cause another problem? Clay/Lexi
If it is a vapor lock issue, the exhaust heat riser (if your car has one) being stuck in the closed position will definitely cause increased heat under the carburetors causing the fuel in the float bowls to boil (vaporize) and cause vapor lock. The suggestion to block off the exhaust crossover on the intake manifold is also a good idea to reduce the heat under the carburetors. If you are using ethanol gas, I would suggest using a tank of nonethanol gas and see if that takes care of the problem.
Daryl Chesterman
Quote from: Lexi on June 29, 2023, 12:17:11 PMUnlike the old lead additives that were available, I am sure these new ones do not contain lead, but in my opinion they still seem to do the job as based on how quiet the engine sounds once added.
Looks like the VP Fuels Maddative Octanium (the one in the purple can) has Tetraethyl Lead in it according to the safety data sheet.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Fu4BbTaPOYJJ5k68jpR388lpcLAwQxYB/view
https://vpracingfuels.com/product/octane-booster-vp-octanium/?c=367&
For "off road" use only. But as you describe, using that additive makes the car idle much more smoothly and seems to run better overall. Using that with non-ethanol gas has helped avoid vapor lock too.
Gabe thanks. Must check those products out! Clay/Lexi
Have you checked the manifold heat regulator? If that is stuck or rusted closed it can cause the carb and manifold to overheat and boil the gas in the carb causing fuel starvation.Just a thought.
If you suspect a vapor lock issue, shielding the fuel line can eliminate the issue. To check the integrity of the fuel lines, remove the fuel inlet at the fuel pump, start the engine, and check the vacuum. It should be 15-18 in.hg. Now remove the fuel line at the fuel tank and connect the vacuum gauge to the fuel line and start the engine. It should read the same and when you shut the engine off, it should hold the vacuum. If it doesn't, you have a leak in the fuel line.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/00aGHB0zxSziegIyyoht3Ptkw
Good day everyone: I love all the post- Thank you😎. Today took the 1958 Facel
Vega to my first coffee and cars. Came home and started on the Cadi- We put Marine stabilizer in the fuel tank. Took it for a 35 minute spin around the neighborhood and she ran great. I was so excited - My dad would be so proud!!
We fixed the problem. Got out lifted the hood and no fuel ever reached the glass bowl (fuel is vaporizing before it reaches the glass bowl). I was like "no-no come back", and Yeap she stalled. Next step this week is to get the gas out of the tank and replace it with lead gas. Maybe put a riser on the carburetor to reduce the heat, not sure just trying little easy steps first. Before the big expense. Will keep you updated. Hopefully the video uploads of the engine and fuel pump. I also have to remember the cars were in Ohio and I live in Florida- temperature and humidity is different here. Kindly, L.Plesz 8)
"...fuel started running out the glass bowl." Are you referencing the glass bowl with a fuel filter? If so, that's a dangerous leak in the gasket where the bowl seats, and has absolutely NOTHING to do with the type of gas you're using. There should be no evidence of gas leaking outside of and / or on the engine or in the throat of the carburetor. If gas is leaking out of the carburetor or down the throat of the carb, you likely have a bad float and/ or needle valve or the float is set too high and allowing too much gas to enter the carburetor. Heat can exacerbate that problem, but no matter what FUEL you're using, NOTHING will cure any of these leaking/ mechanical issues I've mentioned except a focused repair and remediation of what appears to be a reoccurring intermittent problem that is, potentially, serious fire hazard. Hope this helps you, and I mentioned the fire hazard out of concern for you and your property... it's NOT the gas you're using, if gas is leaking out of components that are engineered not to lea, they find a competent mechanic who can fix the leaking gas . Respectfully, James
Since you live in Florida, I would install metal shims between the intake manifold and cyl heads. This will block the exhaust from heating the fuel in the carb. Tie the heat riser open. This will improve driveability when warm, but may want to be a little cold blooded when first started.
Good Day Everyone :)
I wanted to follow up on the original post and everyone's help. This has been quite a journey. I did not get back to the Cadi as planned, I took the 1958 Facel Vega to my first car show at the Elliot Museum in Stuart Fla. Upon parking, pulled the hood latch and "Bam" the release broke. Not only that, I kept hearing a clicking sound near the rear driver tire. I knew this was not normal. After investigating, the exhaust pipe had come loose from the strap and was leaning against the tire. Now that both are fix, my husband and I started investigating the Cadillac vapor lock. I am embarrassed to say, we totally missed a second fuel pump installed under the car and the switch is in the glove box. Flipped the switch and the car ran for 50 minutes down the road without a vapor lock. The lessons learned on my classic cars will be many, and I thank all of you for helping us think.
First thing. ABSOLUTELY DO NOT USE ETHER STARTING FLUID TO TRY TO START THE ENGINE!!. Ether is a good way to et a new flywheel and/or starter. I have seen this many time here in Iowa when someone tried to start their car in the winter and it backfires. Have also seen when they would not start and let sit for a while, then tried to start it, blow the valve covers, valley cover, and oil pan off. The oil pan bolts were still in the block.
That said, either use choke cleaner or better yet use mass air flow cleaner. If you have an oil bath air cleaner remove it. If I remember correctly, i'm not sure about the Caddy dual four set up, but on Chevrolet, the rear carb is the primary carb. Open the choke blade, spray the cleaner into the carb throat while cranking the engine.
Check the heat riser and make sure that it is not stuck shut.
As suggested, cleaning the fuel tank, make sure that the fuel tank can vent (has the gas cap been replace with non-vented cap), and new rubber fuel lines is always a good idea for older vehicles. Make sure that none of the fuel lines run close to the exhaust.
In the past couple of months there have been several post and replies about over heating issues and fuel system issues.
Just don't throw parts at it. If you need help trouble shooting, just ask. We will be more than happy to help you.
To start, I would recommend getting a infra-red digital temperture gun and measure the thermostat housing, upper radiator, and lower radiator hoses. If you can, measure the temps at the back of the cylinder heads and the intake manifold exhaust crossover. This will help diag the heating issue.
I would start here and then address the engine not running issue.
All of the above and add an electric fuel pump on a switch, return line and a visible fuel filter.