One day late last June I told my wife I thought I would drive out from NE Indiana to upstate NY to "just look at" a 1969 Deville that had been sitting most of the last twenty years that I had been talking with a gentleman about. "When?" she said, "Today... I'm going to see if the two youngest kids want to go along and we'll stop to see Niagara Falls". She is a car gal herself and knew good and well that my intentions went deeper than just "taking a look", but a trip to the Falls, some haggling back and forth, some explaining about what a deal it was ;D and a trailer ride home here she is just as I got her, being delivered July 9th of last year.
Very nice looking Cadillac. From the two pictures you posted, it looks to be in very good condition. The only thing I can see is what looks like a piece of duct tape on the front of the top.
Of the 60's cars, that's my favorite year. Had one many moons ago, white on white with a blue interior.
Congratulations on your new to you car.
Rick
Good eye on the tape Rick! She's actually at the upholstery shop now getting her new top that they've been holding since April.
I took a month or so getting her road worthy last summer - new tires, battery, tune-up etc. and I couldn't believe how well it ran. The plan was to start digging a bit deeper over the winter and have it ready by April, but in a terrible turn of events the mechanic freshening the engine up actually damaged it, and very long story short I'm going to miss this summer and have been sulking around.
I figured since I couldn't drive her I could at least post some pictures and log the upcoming engine rebuild etc. This is the second project of this type I've done - The first being a 1968 IH Scout years ago so this is a very different animal.
She's a straight "Driver" and I sure missed out on her this summer after getting a brief taste last year.
G'day Richard,
I thought it best to contact you with relation to the race tape across your roof/windscreen.
i had a similar thing happen to me when I purchased my '72 Eldorado back in 2007. The water leaked into the car whilst driving, so after tightening the seal across the header bar, the leak was still there. I finally stopped it leaking by putting the tape across the top of the windscreen to the top and was going to replace the seal when I got the car home.
What I found was the water was coming in, under the windscreen stainless steel moulding, and running down the inside of the glass. So, the screen had to come out and be resealed.
Well, when the screen was removed, the problem turned out to be that the windscreen frame that the glass sealer attaches to was rusted away. Hopefully, yours is not the same.
Bruce. >:D
Ouch. I didn't notice any water coming in at the windshield the time or two I got caught in the rain last summer, but the header bow was rusted so that will be replaced, along with the seals between the front & rear windows.
Finally got her back from the top guy a few weeks ago and he did a great job, also cleaned up the frame when the top was off and installed some new window seals (she's been in a pole barn the last couple months and is filthy). Last night we FINALLY moved her into my friends shop/pulled the hood and today we start pulling the engine!
I am curious how to determine if it's the original power plant/nostalgic about the history of the car. I took a pic of the block casting # which is 1486238 which according to another thread does denote a 69/69 472, but is there a way to know if it's original to the car? I do have what I call the "line set ticket" but honestly it was hard for me to decipher and I don't remember seeing anything about engine #'s on it. It will never be a show car, but I'm curious about this and if there's a way to track it down to the original selling dealer? (The last guy had kind of fallen out of love with her and was for the most part parked 20 years and he didn't have too much history other then he he bought it in IL or IA and taken it to upstate NY where he did basically nothing to it.
Look for a machined pad on the top of the engine just behind the intake manifold. As I recall, look from the passenger side of the car. I believe the first character should be 'F' for DeVille convertible, followed by a '9' for the 1969 model year, then the last several numbers of the VIN which should match the last several numbers of the VIN tag riveted to the base of the dashboard that can be seen through the windshield from the driver's side.
Thanks J. Skelly I'll be sure to check that area out and compare to my VIN tomorrow AM! We had a productive day today - Engine is out, just need to pull the carb and distributor tomorrow AM, then it and will go to the machine shop Monday AM.
Beautiful Cadillac. This is the for what it's worth department. Some years ago on another Cadillac forum a guy said that when rebuilding a 472 it is critical that the same bolts go back in the same places they came out of. The way to do it is use cardboard box flats and draw a diagram of the area on the engine being disassembled and push the bolts in so they can be returned to the same spot. He said he versed the mechanic on this but the guy disregarded his insisted request and the engine does not run right. Again I feel it is important to mention, it does not seem that hard to accomplish and it may save future headaches. I hope this helps.
First digit should be a "6" indicating Cadillac, followed by the year number "9" followed by a letter indicating the engine plant followed by the engine (and "possibly" the vehicle VIN number
Greg Surfas
I haven't cleaned it, but I'm not seeing any hint of a VIN.The only numbers I'm seeing at the back of the engine block are the casting number that tells me it's a 472?
the number for your '69 should end in 6238. Those are the csting numbers found on1968 and 1969 motors, all 472's. It is POSSIBLE but unlikely that someone has modified the block to take a 500 crank.
Greg Surfas
Yep, the block casting # which is 1486238 which according to another thread denotes a 68/69 472, but I'm trying to determine if it's the original engine to the car - (just out of curiosity really). I'm not seeing any machined surfaces at the back of the block. Getting the engine bay cleaned up for some fresh paint.
Here is a shot of the '69 motor (I did a Hi Po build during covid) I have. this number is stamped into the block just behind the driver's side cylinder head. Coincidentally this motor was the original equipment that went into a 1970 CdV that was early production.
Greg Surfas
thanks for the clarification, Greg; maybe I was thinking of the 425 in my '77
Thanks Greg! It IS the original engine. I don't think I would have found it without the pictures you shared - It's covered in 50+ years of gunk!
Off to the machine shop tomorrow!
Slow going at the machine shop so just a waiting game for the most part and ordering this and that for reassembly. Picked up some parts to have powder coated Cadillac Blue and that iron intake was just as heavy as I imagined lol.
They are questioning my Rockers which have some wear as you can see in the pics. It idled smooth as silk with no chatter whatsoever (before the tool that damaged the engine - I never heard it run after he damaged it, but he said lower end knock). I don't have tolerances and didn't find any on here, but am a bit afraid to buy online because everyone (including machine shop) says to reused the old parts when you can. Also, I don't want to spend thousands on a rebuild and have a few hundred in small parts cause a failure. The pedestals were in great shape with very little wear. Advice - opinions?
Your hydraulic lifters adjust to normal wear. The mechanic should be able to assess any parts of the rocker assembly, push rods and hydraulic lifters that are excessively worn right now. When the engine is running again, with the valve covers off, one can check for push-rods that are not spinning-- a tell tale. In my experience, with proper oil flow, these parts can endure some wear and still function well. In the final analysis, if the rebuild is done well, and you're not expecting the engine, transmission, and drive train to endure full throttle operation, you'll likely be satisfied with the results. James
The engine is apart, replace everything with brand new. If your shop is any good, especially if they do race engines, they know who the good suppliers are and those parts will be expensive. The ONLY things original in my engine is the block and valve covers. Critical to dyno, critical. It shows you if the engine works before its reinstalled, shows any leaks and shows you power. In my last pull they got another 50hp and 150ftlbs of torque. Change the flexplate, you're right there. New water, oil and fuel pumps (get the correct fuel pump, I believe yours takes an internal filter). I had my engine pulled and rebuilt during the summer of The Flu since all the car shows were cancelled due to the inherent dangers of fresh air and sunshine. Your shop will give you a break in protocol, follow that to mile and MPH, change the oils on time.
This was the shop http://www.reidsautomotive.com/
With the rocker arm tips so worn, I would be looking at having them refaced if possible, but the depth of wear might be too deep requiring re-hardening of the arms.
What type of oil has been used in the engine? If it is modern stuff, with no Zinc, then you will definitely find that the Cam lobes and Lifters are worn out.
The lifters can be restored by re-radius grinding them, which is far better than purchasing new ones which most likely be Chinese made.
A friend thought he was using good oil in his two cars (Hot Rods) and thought the term "for Modern Engines" on the container meant for engines that were newer than the cars they were in. Couldn't get proper tuning on both, and it turned out that the Lifters were shot (badly worn) from using this new oil. No Zinc is really bad in a non-roller cam engine.
Bruce. >:D
Hard telling what oil was used for the first 50 years lol, but it was rarely driven the last 20 years - I used higher zinc oil but have only changed oil once or twice since owning/driving part of one summer. My local machine shop rebuilding the engine is the gold standard in these parts (been around since the 60's), but they don't dyno. You take them the engine minus carb and distributor and they clean, machine, assemble.
I am having them weld nuts to the inside of the timing cover for the small water pump bolts - they weren't stripped yet, but they were close.
The cam had some minor wear so it will get some regrinding, but they said everything else looked pretty good. I think there's just a bit of uncertainty for them on the rockers because it's not a super common engine and they're non-adjustable. They agree with the comments I see all over the forum about using original when you can because a lot of the new stuff is junk. They are checking a source that might have quality ones and will let me know this week. I think they just don't want to see me spend several grand on a rebuild and have something small fail and ruin the engine. I don't mind spending the extra, but also didn't want to get junk. We'll see what they find.
Your hydraulic lifters take up a good deal of wear in the valve train, (are you having a valve springs replaced?) In my judgement, having a reasonable expectation regarding just how you want your half century car to operate when it comes out of the shop seems to me to be a good starting point. Needless to say, a perfectly rebuilt engine with all of the torque and horsepower as when new has the potential to shorten the life or destroy the rest of an ageing drive train... also, what is the status of the radiator... I had the unfortunate experience several decades ago, of rebuilding a Cadillac engine, and shortly thereafter, blowing out the head gasket on route 95 in Fl, because the original radiator was partially clogged. I mention these concerns to you respectfully, James
Thanks James. That's one of the questions they've asked me to consider while they're working out the parts list. "How are you going to use the car; will it be Sunday drives and date nights, or something your going to romp on and drive thousands of miles a year?" (For me it's date nights, cruising, and occasional trips to the lake an hour away). I thankfully did have the radiator & condenser rebuilt already and it was a good thing. The radiator "looked" decent, but was clogged pretty good and had a tiny leak I hadn't seen. I also sent the carb out to Bowen's in Bristol, PA and man that thing looks fantastic! (Will post pics when I unbox it again)
I'm going to contact them today and see what they've found if anything on the rockers and will ask about the valve springs - still working on a final parts list.
I've been waiting for a warm day to spruce up the engine bay and today it got up over 60 degrees here in NE Indiana so we could open the garage door (fumes), but it was windy so we didn't push her out. Just freshened things up with Krylon Satin and will apply another coat when we can get it out under the sunlight. We moved it out of my friends shop and pushed into his "house garage" while awaiting machine shop to finish so no real work going on right now, mostly a waiting game. Ordering some AC components and odds and ends...
My engine is supposed to be completed this week and I dropped off my powder coated parts for installation. They do look a little lighter in the picture than in person. It's been just over 4 months that they've had the engine and it's getting nicer in NE Indiana so I'm ready to get her back together and hopefully work on the less pressing projects that need done here and there.
Pics didn't attach first time...
They finally completed my engine after 4 months and I picked it up this past Friday. I was in a bit of a rush just to get it dropped off at my friends shop and I didn't think to take more pics because now my head is spinning thinking about all the misc. stuff that will now rear its head. The Machine shop pics are in a weird format but at least wanted to get one pic posted for now. Now over to the Technical Forum for searching/questions! lol
Well schedules and stars finally aligned and we made some progress last week and were able to drop the engine into place. The older I get it seems my nerves aren't what they used to be and dangling several hundred pounds of metal around over the Cadillac made me jumpy for the duration. The victory was short lived however as when we went to tighten things up today to move forward (torque converter & bellhousing bolts) something was off. We fought it about four hours and accomplished almost nothing except getting the torque converter bolts in and decided to surrender for the day. The car is jacked up pretty high in front to accommodate our "physiques" and despite jacking up the trans, taking weight on and off of the engine, and just letting everything rest, as soon as we got all of the bellhousing bolts close to tight the engine wouldn't turn over - back them out a bit and the engine turns over just fine. We don't know what could be hanging things up..? I'm going to post in the technical help forum because we're both at a loss and any help or suggestions appreciated. Feeling pretty deflated after today.
Flexplate on backwards? Converter not seated all the way?
Good luck
Ciao,
Mario Caimotto
We had moved the car around quite a bit and neglected to check that the torque convertor was seated completely. I hated to do it, but we pulled the trans and had everything checked out "just in case", replaced the pump gear and re-sealed. The plan is for take 2 on the install this Friday...
At least I know it's all good now and also got to give her a fresh spray of the correct paint.
When fitting the Trans, I always make sure that the Torque Converter can move forwards and backwards a small amount before completely tightening up the bellhousing bolts.
If after this, the Torque Converter is tight, then it is not seated. There has to be some movement between the TQ and Flex Plate, and when the TQ nuts are tightened, you are actually pulling the Flex Plate slightly rearwards. This assists in aligning the Ring Gear as well.
Bruce. >:D
With the torque convertor in place the trans slid into place like butter... Everything's buttoned up underneath and the car is back on the ground, starting to bolt things on the engine and looking at pictures to remind me of where some of that stuff went! lol
The car is back down on the ground (with the engine much easier to reach!) and we're starting to bolt on all the pieces including mostly new AC components. I had Bowen's rebuild the carb over the winter and it looks like new! During reassembly I'm also realizing some misc. brackets and parts that I should have cleaned and painted. Luckily my friend has talked me into slowing down and taking care of them now so I don't regret it. Today I cleaned and painted the air pump bracket, pulley, etc. Probably not many hours from having it running, but we usually only get a few hours here and a few hours there instead of long stretches of time.
It's been many months of downtime since pulling the engine and starting this project, but looking through some pictures recently I was reminded that she has come a long way and the "before and after" are always satisfying. There are some wires and all of the vacuum hoses to run, some routing and clipping, oil priming etc., but I think a few more work days and we'll be ready to try and start her up!
Definitely looking much better now. I wish mine had looked that good when I owned it.
Great job, if it runs half as good as it looks it'll be great.
Rick
So after a two week vacation away, some other scheduling delays, and a stubborn distributor we FINALLY got to fire her up last night (Still haven't decided on a name yet...). TDC, Engine fully primed with break in oil, fuel system primed. I was nervous about following the flat tappet cam break-in process after seeing all kinds of horror stories online - I literally had butterflies in my stomach. However, it actually fired right up and I began the process of varying the RPM ~1500-3000. I'd never done this before and all the things baking in made me nervous.
Me from inside the car: "What's smoking?"
Buddy: "Everything" :D
However, part way through the process she got hot and coolant started leaking from a few spots. Apparently my shiny new black spring clamps just weren't holding and/or I picked the wrong sizes. At first I thought it was my new heater core leaking and that about gave me a nervous breakdown at the thought of tearing all that apart again, but it was just the way the coolant was dripping. After shut down it got hotter with the cap making some noise, steam, etc.
We went for new worm clamps and tried again after she cooled down. The leaks were fixed, but part way through again she got hot and the radiator cap made some awful noises, steam, & overflow boiling after I shut it down.
Prior to the start we had filled the block with coolant with the t-stat out, then the radiator, burped the upper hose etc. Radiator re-cored, new heater core, new water pump, new hoses, new fail-open T-stat. It was pretty late so we called it a night and we probably had ~15 min of break-in time so far which wasn't ideal, but we couldn't keep going as hot as it was.
Thoughts are likely/hopefully it's timing, but it's tricky because you have to set timing at idle, but my understanding is that you CANNOT let it idle during the break-in process. I've read people often use external fans and spraying the radiator with a hose occasionally to keep it cool during the break-in and THEN idle/set the timing so thinking about trying that to complete the process.
I expected some leaks etc. but not the overheat. In addition my blower motor isn't working all of the sudden (I tried turning the heater on during this and got nothing)
I suggest that you purchase a GOOD infrared thermometer so you can diagnose for potential hot spots on the engine... especially the cylinder heads, intake and exhaust manifolds... regarding hoses,clamps, etc. I've had experience with leaks caused by painted attachment surfaces. I've learned not to assume that a hose tightened to a painted steel coolant pipe will necessarily hold pressure. Hope this helps, James
My friend actually has one, but the batteries were dead, but we'll have it at the ready next round.
Quote from: R Simone on June 26, 2024, 09:33:26 AMSo after a two week vacation away, some other scheduling delays, and a stubborn distributor we FINALLY got to fire her up last night (Still haven't decided on a name yet...). TDC, Engine fully primed with break in oil, fuel system primed. I was nervous about following the flat tappet cam break-in process after seeing all kinds of horror stories online - I literally had butterflies in my stomach. However, it actually fired right up and I began the process of varying the RPM ~1500-3000. I'd never done this before and all the things baking in made me nervous.
Congratulations on getting it started, but I seriously question the varying the revs from 1500 to 3000, as this is definitely not correct.
Go straight to 2,500, and stay there till you have to turn it off because of other reasons, and when turning off, don't let it idle back, just hit the switch. Correct what you have to, then start again. No need to go more than 1/2 hour in total, and don't worry about the rings not seating, as this has to be done on the open road, with little or no traffic around.
You NEED the constant speed to enable the cam and Lifter bases proper lubrication, and 1500 is just not sufficient. Plus, 3000 is too high.
Plus, if you are inside a garage, I always make sure the car is 99% out the garage door, so you aren't killing yourself with fumes.
Bruce. >:D
Yeah, "Pouring the coals" to her right away definitely didn't feel right, but it's what I was told by the machine shop as well as many other articles online include this one by Summit:
How do I break in my flat tappet camshaft and lifters? (https://help.summitracing.com/knowledgebase/article/SR-04707/en-us#:~:text=Breaking%20in%20an%20engine%20with,with%20specific%20break-in%20procedures)
Truth be told I don't think I ever got up to 3000rpm, but I did vary mostly in the 1500 to 2500rpm range. All told I probably did ~20 minutes of actual run time when accounting for shut downs for the leaks/getting hot.
We decided that 20 minutes was close enough and did what a few others mentions which was a fan in front of the grille and some water spritzing the radiator. We also left the radiator cap off just in case there was some air trapped inside. We set the timing & idle exact, topped off the transmission fluid and took it on several short test runs around the neighborhood and she seemed to do great.
I called my son and his friend over (Four people in all to get that HUGE hood on!), and tinkered with a few other things then called it a night as it was late.
Next time I'll change the oil and take her for a little longer trip (to the gas station). I'll probably stay close to home during "Sea Trials"
The reason she got hot, and you had to shut her down, was because you left the Radiator Cap off. Naughty, naughty.
Doing this stopped your cooling system from keeping the engine cool. People forget that the pressure radiator cap is there for a reason. For each pound of pressure, the boiling point of water rises 2 Degrees.
These engines were designed to run hot.
Consider yourself chastised. ;) ;)
Bruce. >:D
Well I've had the old' girl out for her sea trials this past week. The initial overheating seems to have been either timing and/or a little bit of air in the cooling system because she's went ~200 miles now with no issues, including today when it was 90+.
A few minor kinks to work out both being looked at next week. A small exhaust leak that was there before and I just can't seem to find, but I think it's where the D/S manifold meets the down pipe (manifolds were checked and resurfaced at the machine shop so maybe just the flange isn't mating up right). A small trans leak when parked overnight - Trans shop sealed it up so hopefully something minor but they said that usually means something up higher.
I now remember that old cars are like old houses. Lots of character, but always something that needs done! ;)
Looks fabulous... wishing you smooth sailing on calm seas... James
Awesome car! A Swan with lipstick. Sexy as hell.
My 10 cents...
Keep the AC factory R12 if you can.
My 1970 wagon's AC saved my life during a horrible freak night thunderstorm with 7 passengers. I had the AC fixed so the windows defogged nicely. I missed a big tree coming down in 50 mph wind by 50 yards at full on braking power.
I have 2 Caddies with R134A conversions done by professionals. They are only good for morning or night. Very weak.
Invest in a 30 lb. can from eBay is my advice.
Find a shop with an older AC evacuator machine too.