Hi,
So, the driver's door on my '55 Eldorado is engaging the safety lock but not closing fully. I've adjusted the lock plate on the pillar as far out as it will go but the door refuses to close properly. Take a look at the video here:
You can see the photos of the general door position. I'd appreciate people's thoughts. Obviously, the panel fit isn't too bad but where can I get that extra 1/8 of an inch to get the door to lock properly if the lock plate is fully extended?
Thanks for taking the time to look.
Best regards,
Andy
Andy,
I'm no expert on how to adjust these doors, but from what I can see in your picture, it appears that part of the catch, or striker assembly is either broken off or very worn. That could be a good bit of the problem right there.
Another thing is the roller on the end of the latch that is supposed to roll inside the striker. I have a couple off this 55 that have been worn flat from not being greased so they'll roll. And if the flat spot is in just the right place, it gives a little more clearance for the latch to move in the striker, and won't hold the door in alignment.
And I think that the 56 2 door models were the last ones to use this type of latch and striker design. The 4-door hardtop in 56 has the newer design with a star-wheel type of latch in the doors and a completely different striker assembly.
Only the 2 door models got this hokey design. The good news is that from 55 back to whenever, (not sure when this design began), but 55 back all models used it, 2, or 4 door. So there are parts out there, but look closely at them, of the 6 I have, only 2 were any good.
Does the door close and line up well if you push it in, and how hard do you have to push? A little bit is acceptable, but if it's hard to push it into lining up, you may have to adjust the door hinges to get it to close properly.
It lines up with the body ok though? If it does, any additional adjustments on the hinges might mess that up.
Who you really need to talk to is a body man and see what he has to say.
Rick
I suspect that the problem is with the latch mechanism on the door. You can check this theory by opening the door and using your hand to slowly raise up the round part of the latch to the safety position (first click), then proceed farther to see if it will lock into the fully raised position (second click). If it doesn't, that means you will need to investigate why it won't latch in the fully raised position. Below is a picture courtesy of eBay, of what is said to be a latch for a 1955 Cadillac, but it doesn't say Eldorado.
Link deleted per request by Richard Cook
This picture is upside down from the way it is in the door—meaning the wedge you see in the top of the picture should be on the bottom and the round end of the latch mechanism should be on the top. The picture, if correct for your car, shows how the mechanism operates. You can click on the thumbnail pictures to the left of the main picture to see some different views of the latch.
Daryl Chesterman
Daryl is correct about the latch, if it's not moving into the secondary position, it leaves the roller in a lower position, which in that striker is farther outward than the fully closed position would put it. Now the reason it may not be moving to the secondary latch position is that the roller bearing, (yes, it has a bearing on the end so it moves easily through the striker), is stuck due to dirt or old dried-up grease. If this condition does not get fixed, eventually it will wear a flat spot on the roller and then the latch is pretty much junk. The latch is assembled with rivets, which makes it difficult to rebuild or swap individual parts between latches. I've had to do some work on the latches for my coupe, but I'd have to dig them out now to be able to say exactly what I did now. That old memory thing again.
I remember that the strikers have a stainless piece that is riveted in place that the roller rides over. It's near the top of the striker on the outboard side, where the most pressure is from the roller when the door is closed. I didn't see it in your picture, and that will also add more clearance to the roller track and allow the door to not close as far as it should.
When I got my car and the 55 parts car, I had no idea that they had a bearing on the end of the latch lever. Mine were pretty dirty and didn't rotate, not until I had taken them out to clean everything up, then I realized they had bearings and made sure I got them working again.
Rick
Hi Rick, Daryl,
Thanks as ever for the replies. Some great suggestions as to what to check.
When I hold the door in place, the panel line up is great - shame to mess around with the hinges at this stage before exhausting other options. As you say - I might speak to a body guy.
I attach a picture of the latch which looks very used and original. It is going into the second position when I move it manually. Then it drops slightly.
I wonder if the roller is too worn?
I will check my part numbers and see if that eBay one is the same. They did change them frequently for 55/56.
Best regards,
Andy
p.s. the lock assembly part number is 466 4966 which was also used in Buicks.
If the door alignment is good, then you don't need or want to mess with any hinge adjustments. That will only make things worse. I will check my coupe latches after I figure out which box they're in, and see what I can figure out from here.
I don't remember what vehicle I had seen this issue with, but I recall seeing the mounting holes on one that had cracks around the holes from stress, either from slamming or misalignment at some point. I didn't see any in your picture, but if memory serves, there's 3 mounting screws for the latch assembly, and the picture only shows 2 of them.
I'll check my latch for how much it will rise before it latches into the secondary position and if it drops any afterward. That may be normal, I can't recall. But I seem to remember that there's a rotating wheel or a rocking lever with a catch finger on it in the latch mechanism that might explain why it drops after catching the second position. I've gotta see it to know for sure though. I'll let you know tomorrow.
Rick
Yes, there was some interchangeability between the car lines. I also recall that on some of the latches on that alignment wedge, there was a flat piece welded to the flat rearward face of it, but its purpose escapes me. And I think it's just a 56 thing, the 55 didn't use it, of vice versa. Again, gotta see it to remember it clearly.
Rick
Lockhouse,
I bought my 55CDV 25 yrs or so ago. A friend of mine owned a restoration shop and also had a 55Eldo at the time. I called him in regards to my driver's door alignment and he responded by informing me that both he and his body man had spent a whole week attempted to get a door right, only to fail and not show any improvement! I myself, have walked out to my driver's door over and over again telling my self "I'm going to get it this time", only to fail!(I rebushed my hinges along the way) I've moved on but am still discouraged that I simply could NOT adjust my door!....walt...tulsa,ok
I'm still trying to get out and look for the latches, but I do remember that even though all models used that style of latch and striker for 55, there is a difference between the 2 and 4 door latches, but the strikers are the same. On the latch, and the outside door handle, in a 2 door they sit higher in the door. If you compare where the handle is in relation to the belt line of the car, you can easily see the difference between them. And since they fit in the door differently, they will not interchange.
The more I think about this the more I remember about it. I think I was desperate to get my driver's side latch working and I ended up swapping a piece from a 4 door latch to mine, I think. I've done work on other latches for an El Camino and I may be confusing the two, because it's been years since I've worked on either one of those. And I didn't take pictures of what I had done, so I can't refer to one for verification.
Give me another hour or so and I hope to have some answers for you on this.
Rick
I've taken the plunge and bought the LH latch on eBay. It looks like new and they say it's been tested but as ever it's a gamble.
I've got a new piece of chrome door trim to fit too, so can do both at the same time when I take off the door arm rest and door card.
I will report back as and when.
A
That's good too. I just located mine, I had put down the wrong box number on my inventory sheet, so I had to go box by box until I found them. The latches do have a "drop" in the lever after they catch the second position. I believe it's so that the lever release mechanism will be able to clear the catch lever after closing the door. I did get the two vehicles mixed up in my memory, I have not swapped any latch pieces on the Cadillac ones. About the only thing that can be swapped easily are some of the springs, everything else is riveted in place with big rivets,which I doubt you could replace without special tools.
But here's pictures of both my left and right latches, and the left and right strikers.
20230814_114404.jpg
20230814_114422.jpg
Daryl,
I hate to ask this, but your link to the latch for sale is so long it's extending the texts way out and with just a phone it's very difficult to read without losing my place. Since Andy has bought the part,could you possibly delete the link and hopefully the text width will return to a more normal size?
Thank you very much for understanding, I hope this isn't too much to ask.
Sincerely, Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on August 14, 2023, 03:09:19 PMDaryl,
I hate to ask this, but your link to the latch for sale is so long it's extending the texts way out and with just a phone it's very difficult to read without losing my place. Since Andy has bought the part,could you possibly delete the link and hopefully the text width will return to a more normal size?
Thank you very much for understanding, I hope this isn't too much to ask.
Sincerely, Rick
I thought it was my browser!
It might be, but I've noticed in other threads where a really long link is attached it tends to do this. I'm just guessing that's the cause, no proof, but if he deletes it and it solves the issue, we'll know for sure. And if it doesn't, then he can reattach the link. I just don't know any other way to find out what causes this.
Rick
Richard, I deleted the link and it shortened up the width of the post. I don't know why it did that, because when I posted it the link was 5 lines and confined to the width of the window ??? I can't repost the link because the listing has been removed due to Andrew purchasing it.
Daryl Chesterman
Hey, it worked. Thanks Daryl. I don't like to ask that sort of thing, on a thread I'm only looking at it doesn't matter, but here I've been trying to participate and trying to see what I'm typing is difficult at best when the screen spreads like that.
Thank you for doing that, at least we now know what makes it happen for sure.
Rick
Something else it did was it put my pictures that usually end up at the end of a post and added them to the next post. Explain that one!
The pictures of the latches should have the same thing but smaller at the bottom of that post with whatever ID it assigns to each. They never showed in the first one, but showed up in the 3rd post that followed.
Rick
Andy,
I can see in your picture of the striker, that it's definitely different than what was on my 55, and my 56. On mine, the lower part that receives the wedge part of the latch and acts as a guide of sorts, has a thicker bottom lip to it with a track that is cut into it for that flat plate on the back of the wedge.
Yours is just a thin lip that is totally flat, no groove like my55 or 56.
I'm beginning to think that the Eldorado has a lot of special parts on it that aren't found on the other models.
Without a side by side comparison, it's hard to say if you can use a regular 55 striker.
The reason I mentioned all this is because I can see yours is worn pretty badly at the top where the latch roller makes contact. You can see the wear markings in the metal itself. So you might want to look for a replacement for that as well.
On a side note, your picture is cut off right at the edge of the striker, you can't see the whole thing, but you can still see the wear in it.
Rick
Hi Rick,
Thanks again for the detailed photos - great reference.
I've looked for striker plates by part number and they all seem to vary slightly - some have a deeper "notch", some have a shorter riveted piece. They all have the same part number which is strange. I'll replace the latch first as that is evidently worn more.
My car had a frame off around 25 or 30 years ago and I don't have any details of who did it so I don't know what parts are original and what are new (I can generally make a good guess). Also assuming the car was done by someone who knew what they were doing (I think it was) then they would know what they could substitute, as per my little episode with my wipers demonstrates.
Best regards,
Andy
That's interesting, I haven't looked into what the part numbers were for these, mainly because I don't have a parts book that covers that far back.
If it doesn't seem to make a difference, you shouldn't have any problems getting another one.
Rick
Rick,
You were right all along. I don't know why I just didn't compare the striker plates.
The driver's side is definitely damaged. The passenger side is a little worn but not too bad.
So I definitely need a new striker plate as well. It's part number 4664972 and is a standard GM part of the era.
One question - if I completely undo the striker plate, do I need to get behind the door jamb (take the side trim out etc) to hold the back plate in place whist I replace the striker plate?
Best regards,
Andy
Hi Andy,
If you remove the striker, you don't need to worry about the anchor nuts falling into the quarter panel.
I just double checked mine and they used a cage behind the anchor to keep it in place yet still allow it to move for adjustment.
I believe yours should be the same way. However, just to be safe, if you remove just one screw and replace it with a much longer one as a precaution, then remove the second screw. With the longer screw or bolt then you can test whether or not the anchor is in fact captured within a cage. If so, then you can remove the longer one without fear of it falling inside the panel.
Before you remove the old one though, use something like a felt tip marker or another kind that is easily removed, and make an outline of your striker so when you put the new one on, it should be very close to being in adjustment.
Just be careful when you go to close the door, as it may move up or down and chip your paint.
Hope you can locate a good striker soon.
Was your latch bad, or is the problem isolated to the striker?
Rick
I had to readjust my striker plates on my '54 because some of the doors weren't latching correctly. The problem I have now is that the drivers door doesn't close shut and is loose in the striker plate even with multiple adjustments.
Do you guys think using some black tape could fill in any wear areas so the door latch will be able to catch the striker better?
I always thought these door latches were a kinda weird design. They seem sturdy in all, but I think the design was unnecessarily complicated.
Quote from: 64\/54Cadillacking on August 16, 2023, 07:10:29 PMI had to readjust my striker plates on my '54 because some of the doors weren't latching correctly. The problem I have now is that the drivers door doesn't close shut and is loose in the striker plate even with multiple adjustments.
Do you guys think using some black tape could fill in any wear areas so the door latch will be able to catch the striker better?
I always thought these door latches were a kinda weird design. They seem sturdy in all, but I think the design was unnecessarily complicated.
How much of a gap do you have between the door and the quarter panel? If it's too large, it doesn't let the latch fully engage with the striker.
I think a lot of this kind of issue is caused by shops that will jack up or lift the car using a point too far behind the front suspension, and it flexes the frame and body. This pulls the latch forward with the door while the quarter panel is dropping towards the rear, as the car flexes in the middle from the excessive weight of the front end.
The factory designed the vehicle to be supported by the suspension, not points in between.
I believe that is the reason for the extra flat piece on the 56 wedge on the latch. I think it was intended to try to prevent the door from pulling away from the striker when the body is flexed from bad roads or whatever might cause it.
But that's just conjecture on my part, I don't know why it was added.
Now I do know that there were shims that were used to move the striker towards the door. I have a pair that were on my car. They're not very thick, but it might be enough to make your latch hit deeper into the striker for a better hold if you can find a pair.
I also believe this design is flawed and the reason why the new 56 4-door hardtop used a completely new design latch and striker.
I think the 2 door 56's and all the earlier years with this design strikers are made of pot metal. Not very safe actually. The catch in the latch assembly is the only thing that keeps your door shut, and if it wears enough, well.....?
As for filling up a gap on your striker to get the latch to hit the second catch, it might work for 1 or 2 times, but tape isn't a good solution. It won't stay in place long, and the pressure from the roller on the latch will push it out. The adhesive won't hold enough for this to work.
Is the latch actually fully fitting into the striker, just not moving into the secondary catch?
Or does the latch only reach the edge of the striker, like the door is too far forward?
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on August 16, 2023, 06:27:28 PMWas your latch bad, or is the problem isolated to the striker?
Rick
Hi Rick,
Thanks for the details re the cage.
The actual latch mechanism was OK but a little worn - I've probably been a bit over eager in ordering a replacement latch\striker, I should have hung on and found a new striker plate and tried that first.
Best regards,
Andy
Hey Rick,
I'm going to have to go inspect the car tomorrow or on Sat to see exactly what's going on. I'll try to readjust the striker plate again to see it will catch. It's so finicky and touchy though. I remember having to adjust the strikers on the front passenger and rear doors since the doors weren't closing completely shut either as the latch would loosely have slack in striker.
One of the past owners of the car used it in weddings and events many years ago, so the door strikers and latches I am sure are probably worn a bit because of all hundreds if not thousands of times random people have the shut the doors.
Quote from: 64\/54Cadillacking on August 17, 2023, 10:21:55 PMHey Rick,
I'm going to have to go inspect the car tomorrow or on Sat to see exactly what's going on. I'll try to readjust the striker plate again to see it will catch. It's so finicky and touchy though. I remember having to adjust the strikers on the front passenger and rear doors since the doors weren't closing completely shut either as the latch would loosely have slack in striker.
One of the past owners of the car used it in weddings and events many years ago, so the door strikers and latches I am sure are probably worn a bit because of all hundreds if not thousands of times random people have the shut the doors.
Your doors shouldn't be too hard to adjust, being a 4 door sedan. I've been thinking your car was a 2 door, so some of what I have mentioned earlier doesn't apply to you.
But when the door is adjusted, the first alignment should be the rear of the door to the B pillar, then the upper and lower clearances.
You never want to align the door with the front fenders, it's the other way around. The fender should be aligned with the door once the door is properly aligned.
If the rear of the front door is properly aligned, then you need to investigate why it doesn't close properly. This also applies to the rear doors, they are surrounded by the body on all sides, and unless the car has been wrecked at some point in time, it should be fairly easy to align the doors.
Because there is a piece of the B pillar that sits between the outer edge of each door, you can align the front door by itself.
Only on a car where the B pillar is hidden, (no part of it is exposed to the outside of the car), is it necessary to start with the rear door and work forward, but this applies to newer models, not yours.
When you are trying to adjust your striker, are you moving the whole thing in or out, or have you tried to move just the top or bottom of the striker? If it is not positioned correctly, the latch roller may not be able to enter the groove or channel far enough to make the latch reach the second position.
And moving the striker up or down will affect how the door closes too.
Also, the little black plastic wedge on the striker needs to be able to move freely because it does apply a small amount of tension or pressure on the latch wedge to help prevent the door from rattling within the striker. If yours is stuck, try spraying something into it to lube the shaft and the spring behind the wedge.
It's a delicate dance between the two parts to get the door to close properly, but well worth the time and effort.
I know exactly how hard it is to remove the latch assembly from the door, but if you suspect that it's not moving like it should or needs to be lubricated, it is a good idea to pull it out. This also allows you to clean it of all the old dried grease and dirt so you'll know that it is working correctly.
The really great thing about how the latch fits the door is that there is not any adjustment for it. It goes in one place.
Trying to lube the latch while it's still in the door isn't very effective, as you can't get to all the moving parts. And the spray lubricant will drip inside the door and make a mess.
Rick
Edit:
20230818_111253.jpg
20230818_111312.jpg
These are pictures of 55 parts car rear doors. I think somebody has changed the right latch assembly because it's got the extra flat piece on the wedge. You can easily see it in the picture. These will fit into the 55 doors, but I believe this design of latch with the flat piece on it is a 56 design, but I don't know that for sure. Just going by what I've seen on other cars.
I've pulled the front door latches and they're in a box somewhere, I just need to figure out which one.
So it appears that the striker was badly worn on my car with a deep groove above where from the ball latch catches.
Fortunately, I was able to acquire a nicely used striker from that '54 Fleetwood parts car a few months ago, and I decided to finally install it.
Well, all is good now. The door shuts perfectly fine after installing the new used striker.
So it did whined up being the striker, and not the little ball latch. Here are some pics of the old and new/used one. As you can see, there's a slight difference from both strikers, the old one has this small round rivet looking thing, and the other striker doesn't, although they are from the same year make and model Cadillac.
I wonder if changes were made for parts depending if it was an early or late in the year '54 Caddy?
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IMG_2593.jpeg
IMG_2595.jpeg
IMG_2596.jpeg
Quote from: 64\/54Cadillacking on August 18, 2023, 10:02:04 PMSo it appears that the striker was badly worn on my car with a deep groove above where from the ball latch catches.
Fortunately, I was able to acquire a nicely used striker from that '54 Fleetwood parts car a few months ago, and I decided to finally install it.
Well, all is good now. The door shuts perfectly fine after installing the new used striker.
So it did whined up being the striker, and not the little ball latch. Here are some pics of the old and new/used one. As you can see, there's a slight difference from both strikers, the old one has this small round rivet looking thing, and the other striker doesn't, although they are from the same year make and model Cadillac.
I wonder if changes were made for parts depending if it was an early or late in the year '54 Caddy?
IMG_2594.jpeg
IMG_2593.jpeg
IMG_2595.jpeg
IMG_2596.jpeg
Well I suppose it's possible, mid year design changes are nothing new to GM.
In looking at your old striker and the replacement one, it appears that the channel for the latch roller is shaped differently to me, but that could just be an optical delusion. Lol!! Your replacement one also does not have the stainless wear plate that was riveted to your original one.
20230814_114439.jpg
You can see what I'm pointing to in this picture, it's the reinforcement that is supposed to keep the latch roller from digging into the striker.
Because your replacement never had one, I'm wondering how long it will last.
I'm glad you got it all figured out and working again. I would just keep checking the striker for signs of wear from here on.
Rick
Rick,
That's interesting how Cadillac reinforced the touch point of the latch. I wonder if that design was a mid-year cycle update or a later style type striker?
I do see what you mean by the replacement on mine not having the reinforcement piece of metal there.
I was thinking of applying some lithium grease on the wear points to reduce the friction on the striker from opening and closing the door. At the same time, it's not like I drive the car everyday, so the amount of wear will be very minimal.
As far as the stainless shim, I think it's there but it looks very worn, or I could be mistaken? Is there a way that I could plant the old shim onto the replacement striker? Should I grease the shim point and the door latch itself?
BTW is it possible to replace that reinforced piece of metal on the striker by drilling out the rivet and welding in a new piece of steel?
The 2 strikers are shaped slightly differently, especially the bottom lip section of the replacement striker angles downward at a curvature vs the the original one that was on my car. It's these little things that Cadillac changed from year to year that makes it so difficult at times to find parts that actually fit correctly on our cars.
The neutral safety switch, brake booster, front shocks, and horn relay are all parts that are '54 only, including all the A/C related components and brackets.
To transplant the stainless reinforcement from your old striker to your new one is not something that I would recommend, simply because of the difficulty in doing so. Let me explain: to get the reinforcement to fit properly, you would need to grind away the area where it sits so it would be a flush fit, otherwise it could create a snag for the latch roller to hang up on, and if it isn't flush, it will narrow the channel that the latch roller moves through.
I wouldn't recommend that you attempt to weld on the striker either. It looks like pot metal, but even if it's not, it's still a cast piece of unknown composition, and you can do more damage than effective repair without knowing exactly what kind of material it is made from.
As for riveting the stainless piece in place, again you are working with an unknown metal, you would need to drill a hole in the striker for the rivet, and you would have to use a pop rivet to secure the piece, and when you are expanding the rivet it could possibly cause the striker to split from the pressure of the expanding rivet.
You are better off just using your new striker as is and keeping an eye on it for any signs of wear.
Yes, lubricating the roller would be helpful, and since you don't use the car very often as you said, I don't believe you'll experience many issues.
I hope this answers all your questions.
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on August 20, 2023, 03:11:11 AMTo transplant the stainless reinforcement from your old striker to your new one is not something that I would recommend, simply because of the difficulty in doing so. Let me explain: to get the reinforcement to fit properly, you would need to grind away the area where it sits so it would be a flush fit, otherwise it could create a snag for the latch roller to hang up on, and if it isn't flush, it will narrow the channel that the latch roller moves through.
I wouldn't recommend that you attempt to weld on the striker either. It looks like pot metal, but even if it's not, it's still a cast piece of unknown composition, and you can do more damage than effective repair without knowing exactly what kind of material it is made from.
As for riveting the stainless piece in place, again you are working with an unknown metal, you would need to drill a hole in the striker for the rivet, and you would have to use a pop rivet to secure the piece, and when you are expanding the rivet it could possibly cause the striker to split from the pressure of the expanding rivet.
You are better off just using your new striker as is and keeping an eye on it for any signs of wear.
Yes, lubricating the roller would be helpful, and since you don't use the car very often as you said, I don't believe you'll experience many issues.
I hope this answers all your questions.
Rick
Thanks for the advice Rick.
I'll just keep the replacement striker on the Caddy, and grease the friction areas to reduce wear.
It's not worth the hassle of trying to repair the old striker which can cause problems like you said.