A few vintage Caddies have their original dealer installed
Mark IV AC systems which were a dealer add-on option.
Is it advisable from a collector standpoint to keep these original
systems intact since its part of the car's history?
This car still has the BOS for the AC system.
Thanks.
I can't say anything about value, but I'd keep it.
I am a purist in many many ways, but add on ac is something I can deal with. I'm in St. Louis and I'd put a system like that on my car in a heartbeat.
It's period correct, and dealer installed so it's a yes for me.
Jeff
This might have been a dealer installed unit but it is definitely an aftermarket one. Cadillac itself provided a complete system in a box for dealer installation that had all of the components of the factory installed system
Greg Surfas
Not to detract from anything but with that York/techumseh compressor that ARA (mfg) system looks very much like the one I installed in my 1966 GMC truck.
Isn't that adv dated 1965?
Greg Surfas
Looks like May, 1965 to me. Plus, the car has had the charging system and the radio converted, so, total originality is out the window.
Crank it down to cold and enjoy the cruise.
Never seen a dealer installed, after market AC in a '56 Cad, just the factory ones. Not saying it did not happen, just have not seen one that was proven to be of that same vintage. The GM Cadillac options list as I recall only showed factory air. So if a dealer did do it contemporaneously, it would almost certainly be after market. Would be interesting to know the history of these AC units, (not "swamp coolers"), and what if any were available at that time. Very interesting. Clay/Lexi
Don't have it here now (in Kauai), but the parts book for those years show a part number for a dealer installed "factory " set up. Included all parts needed to convert the heating system to a fully factory AC system. I've seen a few of these at shows. The most obvious sign of this work is the tubing vibration eliminators. From the factory they are perfectly straight and those field installed usually have a very noticeable curve to them. A definite no-no for vibration eliminators.
The cost of Factory air was in the neighborhood of$500 and back then that was substantial. The after market systems sold for less than half that.
The cost of the field installed factory systems is in the parts book by
Greg Surfas
Greg that is fascintating. I was not aware of that. My original 1956 MPL lists tons of AC stuff and the use of the word "kit" is there several times. Was this basically just buying the same factory parts to install by the dealer separately, or was the entire system different? I might have some photos from years ago that showed a similar unit, but not sure of its age. It had a different looking evaporator in the trunk and no outside air scoops. Hope I can find some photos. Clay/Lexi
Clay,
The accessory price list shows the (suggested and dealer NET price) for both the basic and complete A/C kit with the additional prices for each of the model adapter kit (I believe you have this copy), I believe this price list does not include the cost of the kit installation by the dealer. ???
This list would be for the factory version of the original A/C unit, no aftermarket units.
There was an aftermarket compressor mounting bracket (MAPCO) to install a York R. or a Tec H.G. compressor not sure what year(s) would this would fall as I only have the installation pages.
Attaching the specific files on my comments above, HTH. ;)
My recollection of the dealer installed factory AC is that the kit included radiator, fan, had generator, fan shroud, all the refrigeration components an a Frigidaire compressor as well as all the necessary pulleys, brackets, bolts and do dads necessary for a complete system.
Greg Surfas
My recollection is that not only was dealer installed a/c the same appearance as factory, but the cost was also the same as if factory installed. I found this rather incredible given how much extra work would have been involved.
@Greg, @Eric,
You bring a real good topic...!
One item in particular is from the 1956 price list I've posted that either kits should/would included all the gadgetry needed for the installation e.i. compressor brackets, pulleys, etc. but ???
Although there is a footnote indicating one item that would need to be order separately, the carburetor "Fast Idle speed-up control" since this item is different for the Carter or Rochester.
The same generator 30A was used for either A/C or non-A/C, there is/was no shroud and the radiator fan 4-blade was also the same for either A/C or non-A/C. Note: there was an optional 5 blade fan that was offer for those customers with factory A/C cars that raised hell with over-heating.
A second point is from a dealer price break-down a 1956 Sedan DeVille 6239D shows the factory extras A/C, Radio, Heater, Easy-Eye windshield, white wall tires and window lifts = $905.
So adding an A/C to the same model would be $538 per the price list, so not sure if the cost would be the same between the factory and dealer install without doing a complete brake-down cost for each of the factory extras. :-\
Thanks Jose. I have seen those papers before. Yes, you are correct in that the idle speed up control units are very different for the Rochester vs the Carters in '56. But wasn't the extra bladed fan 6 vaned (if memory serves)? Would have to pull mine out to be sure as it never made it to the '56 MPL, but was there in the 1957 parts list but with some changes made to it, (and a new part #). You are correct that unless an AC owner complained, every car got the 4 bladed radiator fan. I am inclined also to agree about the fan shroud. I have never seen a '56 Cadillac with what I thought was a contemporaneous one. The few I have seen were all much later and adapted to fit. There may have been a rubber strip that better sealed the hood when closed to the top of the radiator support, but not sure if there in 1956. Do you know if it was there that year Jose? It was sort of a one dimensional poor mans radiator shroud in a way. Just one strip of rubber. Discussions like this used to pop up in the old Mid Century Cadillac site (and CLC Chapter). Lou Commisso the Administrator noted that "factory only" items if MPL listed, could be ordered and installed later by, well anyone including the dealer. So in other words the term "factory only" may not always be true. I agree that this is a fascinating topic and would like to learn more about it. I just don't know much about the AC stuff. Hopefully Gregs chimes in. Clay/Lexi
@Clay,
Quote from: Lexi on May 10, 2024, 12:16:03 AMBut wasn't the extra bladed fan 6 vaned (if memory serves)? Would have to pull mine out to be sure as it never made it to the '56 MPL, but was there in the 1957 parts list but with some changes made to it, (and a new part #).
Ooops as always you are correct the fan blade is/was indeed a 6-blade unit part # 146 4740 addressed under the Serviceman Supplemental #3 in August 1956.
Yes, the MPL also shows the 6-blade fan for 1957-1958 A/C cars part # 146 8887 and later supersede with the 7-blade release for the 1959, however none was listed under the MPL for the 1956.
Quote from: Lexi on May 10, 2024, 12:16:03 AMI am inclined also to agree about the fan shroud. I have never seen a '56 Cadillac with what I thought was a contemporaneous one. The few I have seen were all much later and adapted to fit. There may have been a rubber strip that better sealed the hood when closed to the top of the radiator support, but not sure if there in 1956. Do you know if it was there that year Jose? It was sort of a one dimensional poor mans radiator shroud in a way. Just one strip of rubber.
Same here I've not seen one with a shroud but from memory I believe same as you that someone had adapted/modify one from a later model to fit the 1956.
Correct the only thing was the strip of rubber staple on the hood to restrict the air flow around the top of the radiator.
Quote from: Lexi on May 10, 2024, 12:16:03 AMDiscussions like this used to pop up in the old Mid Century Cadillac site (and CLC Chapter). Lou Commisso the Administrator noted that "factory only" items if MPL listed, could be ordered and installed later by, well anyone including the dealer. So in other words the term "factory only" may not always be true.
Yes I've also recall the same topic we discussed in the old Mid-Century site and it was very-very lengthy with several good views/finds from members.
Jose, (he is one of the Cadillac Gods), much thanks. So '56s did have that rubber strip. I thought so. I think mine has remnants of the heavy duty staples still there but the rubber is long gone. 8) Clay/Lexi
This car is a 1956 Hess & Eisenhardt station wagon. So the factory trunk mounted AC was not an option. I doubt that this system would have provided enough cooling for all those extra square feet of space on a really hot day. Lots of glass too. Better than no AC I guess.
The '60s era aftermarket A/C in a 1960 Coupe deVille I once owned provided far better cooling than an original system. I attributed this to two reasons: The evaporator in the aftermarket system is located forward in the cabin rather than tucked away in the dash. Secondly, the blower in the aftermarket unit delivered greater air volume than a factory HVAC system through the dash outlets.
However, I would also add that blower operation was not nearly as silent as in the factory A/C setup since the blower/motor assembly (like the evaporator) is located well within the cabin without the sound deadening material when located within the dash panel. On a 90+ degree day, the aftermarket system was so powerful, the fan would have to be lowered to keep from freezing you out of the car as ice formed on the outlets.
Quote from: jwwseville60 on May 11, 2024, 10:46:44 AMThis car is a 1956 Hess & Eisenhardt station wagon. So the factory trunk mounted AC was not an option. I doubt that this system would have provided enough cooling for all those extra square feet of space on a really hot day. Lots of glass too. Better than no AC I guess.
I'd love to own this car. Where did they put the evaporator on this, behind the back seat as usual?
The wood treatment is unusual for a 56 too. I wouldn't think that was done to hide any bodywork as the modifications were all above the belt line, except for whatever tailgate was fabricated.
Beautiful station wagon. I'm partial to wagons anyway. Had a 56 Chevrolet wagon for years. It was great to travel in as I could put the back seat down and sleep in it.
I doubt you could do that in this Cadillac wagon unless it didn't have an A/C unit back there.
I wouldn't not buy it because of that however. Too nice!!!
Rick
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on May 11, 2024, 11:18:54 AMThe '60s era aftermarket A/C in a 1960 Coupe deVille I once owned provided far better cooling than an original system. I attributed this for two reasons: The evaporator in the aftermarket system is located forward in the cabin rather than tucked away in the dash. Secondly, the blower in the aftermarket unit delivered greater air volume than a factory HVAC system through the dash outlets.
However, I would also add that blower operation was not nearly as silent as in the factory A/C setup since the blower/motor assembly (like the evaporator) is located well within the cabin without the sound deadening material when located within the dash panel. On a 90+ degree day, the aftermarket system was so powerful, the fan would have to be lowered to keep from freezing you out of the car as ice formed on the outlets.
I've noticed that too in my old 66 GM truck. I had an underdash unit in it and on a humid day after work I'd fire it up and let it cool down while I cleaned up my tools and myself, and when I came back to it there was condensation on the bottom of the door glass. It had an A6 compressor with some old add-on air unit.
Incidentally GM used a very similar unit for the rear A/C in the square-body Suburbans. Both of mine have rear air and I usually have to keep them on low while cruising. With both front and rear on it gets COLD!!
But you're right, the fan design on these is noisy. Twin squirrel cages with no insulation or filters. But very efficient.
Rick
This thread has brought up my favorite gripe. Many people seem to equate 32 degree air blown in your face by a typhoon with good air conditioning. Cadillac has always aimed at "comfort conditioning" where just like commercial AC aims at providing air to the occupied space without undue drafts at a temperature and relative humidity to meet the cooling(or heating) loads. No muss no fuss.
Greg Surfas
Cold and efficient, works great. If you want it warmer, that's what the temp lever is for.
While most aftermarket set-ups lack the refinement of a factory system, they were certainly effective. In any case, it's certainly preferable to the alternative of no A/C at all- noisy blower motors and less-than-optimal air dispersion notwithstanding.
Bring back the swamp cooler I say.
I think it was Summer of 1956 I saw a blue 1954 "4 door" with one of those at the dealers being serviced.
Greg Surfas
Quote from: jwwseville60 on May 12, 2024, 01:49:48 PMBring back the swamp cooler I say.
I got it covered, see!! I just haven't figured out how to keep the freon from running out on a hard stop or righthand turn. No, really, I used to put ice cubes in it when I left work with this in the truck window. It worked really good until the humidity went up during the monsoon season here. And if someone was sitting in the passenger seat and I made a sharp righthand turn or hit a speed bump at an angle they'd get a brief ice cold shower.
It will only fit into a sedan-style door though. It goes into the upper glass channel and then the glass holds it in place and a brace goes from the outer edge to the belt line of the door for extra support. Gotta be careful that you don't slam the door either.
Rick
20240512_163429.jpg
20240512_163527.jpg
20240512_163603.jpg
Nice old swamp cooler. Never had the opportunity to experience one though, so I found your comments interesting. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on May 13, 2024, 10:05:20 AMNice old swamp cooler. Never had the opportunity to experience one though, so I found your comments interesting. Clay/Lexi
Clay,
These are effective to a degree, (and I'm not referring to Fahrenheit here), it does depend on how fast you drive, the relative humidity, and how quickly the water,(and ice if you use it), evaporates.
I usually had to stop halfway home,(45 miles was halfway), to refill it. I got a lot of comments about it over the CB though. Had a few offers to buy it as well.
Even though it's not nearly as good as A/C, I keep it because of it's uniqueness. It's not something that you see everyday.
I was just out looking at the 77 Sedan Deville and thought about putting it in the window for a picture. Then I thought about having to take a battery out of another car so I could do that. Not worth it in this heat. Maybe another day or time of year.
Rick
Those factors make sense, especially the humidity factor as AC units also de-humidfy the air. That is a big chunk of how an AC unit works or so I am told. So high humidity would lessen it's effect and perhaps make it worse as it would be contributing to the RH factor as there is no condenser/evap system in the swamp cooler. Was tempted to buy a vintage unit a couple of times but I thought it would look odd on a Cadillac from an era where factory air was available, so I passed. Would like to experience one some day though. Clay/Lexi
That's why I was thinking about using the 77 for a picture, for the irony. How many 77 Cadillacs ever came without A/C?
I forgot to mention that the rope you see hanging out off the air outlet is to roll the cooler pad through the water/ice, it's looped around the pad, as it's a cylindrical shape.
As you're driving, if you don't occasionally rotate the pad it'll dry out and then you'll just get hot air coming out.
I remember my dad having one of these stuck in his truck window when I was a little kid and we went on vacation with a big cab over camper in back. I found out about the in-transit shower from his cooler, lol! I was fascinated by it and I'd always wanted one for my 56 Chevy but was never able to find one.
Imagine my surprise when I stumbled across this one lying in a pile of trash someone had dumped in the desert. At first, I thought it was just an old mailbox because of its shape.
I had to take it apart to replace the cooling pad, but other than that it was in great shape.
Had it for 25 years now.
Rick
Air conditioning was standard on all Cadillacs beginning 1975.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on May 13, 2024, 01:16:57 PMAir conditioning was standard on all Cadillacs beginning 1975.
I wasn't sure what year it was standard, but figured it had to be at least late 60's or early 70's. Thanks for the information.
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on May 13, 2024, 02:17:41 PMI wasn't sure what year it was standard, but figured it had to be at least late 60's or early 70's. Thanks for the information.
Rick
Technically, air was moved to the standard equipment list (along with a number of other accessories) beginning with cars produced in January 1974 however it could still be deleted through the end of the 1974 model year.
Beginning with the 1975 model year, the factory would no longer accept orders for deleted air.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on May 13, 2024, 02:24:03 PMTechnically, air was moved to the standard equipment list (along with a number of other accessories) beginning with cars produced in January 1974 however it could still be deleted through the end of the 1974 model year.
Beginning with the 1975 model year, the factory would no longer accept orders for deleted air.
Well once air conditioning was perfected why have a car without it? Sitting in the lap of luxury who would want to be sweating their proverbial butt off?
You might say that air conditioning was a really cool idea. Unlike the swamp cooler, that's just a soggy idea.
Rick
I think one day I will clean up the 77 a bit and put that swamp cooler in the window and take a picture just for laughs. Gotta wait for a cooler day though. Already working under a tarp for shade.
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on May 13, 2024, 02:29:25 PMWell once air conditioning was perfected why have a car without it?
It was common for commercial chassis based professional cars to be ordered without air conditioning since they weren't typically owner driven. What they did in 1974 was more or less a "last chance" concession to the funeral industry/municipalities to take advantage of the savings.
Just a note on the evap cooling units. They were intended to be used in dry climates only, hence the brand "desert aire", and meant to be used with all windows down allowing free flow of the cooler but moisture saturated air. The would work great at highway speeds anytime the outside dew point was 50 degrees or less
Greg surfas
Quote from: Cadillac Kid on May 13, 2024, 03:35:43 PMJust a note on the evap cooling units. They were intended to be used in dry climates only, hence the brand "desert aire", and meant to be used with all windows down allowing free flow of the cooler but moisture saturated air. The would work great at highway speeds anytime the outside dew point was 50 degrees or less
Greg surfas
I've not found anything that says what brand this one is, it probably wore off or peeled off decades ago.
As for having the windows open, I found that it seems to work better with the drivers side window closed in the truck. The unit doesn't fill the whole "hole" when it sits in the window, there's about a 5" gap behind it that you can't close obviously, and the air circulates around the interior and out behind it through the gap.
It may have been the design of the truck cab or the lack of any rear windows, I don't know. But it was nice to have on a hot pre-monsoon summer day.
Rick
There may have been a rubber strip that better sealed the hood when closed to the top of the radiator support, but not sure if there in 1956. Do you know if it was there that year Jose? It was sort of a one dimensional poor mans radiator shroud in a way. Just one strip of rubber.
Clay/Lexi
[/quote]
To get back to the original topic, I checked the hood for my 56 and the rubber strip is long gone but the staples are still in the hood support/ brace/baffle.
I'd like to know how it was shaped. Was it just a flat strip that hung down and met the core support, or was there any odd curves to it? Once I've got mine back together I want to use that to help keep it cool.
Rick
As far as I know it was just a long, narrow straight rubber strip. There was group on Ebay selling repros of them, with a photo, just not sure if they are still being offered. Clay/Lexi
Thanks, I'll have to look into that then. If nothing else, I can always cut it from a sheet of that masticated rubber. Just have to make a paper pattern first.
Rick
Some of those early factory units used almost
the same equipment as the add ons. I used a
couple of them with good results for many years.
The important thing was to adequately upgrade
the cooling system, basically to late 70s
standards. Bigger radiator, overflow tank,
fan, and a fan shroud. Bruce Roe
https://www.drukautosales.com/vehicles/207/1956-cadillac-eldorado-seville
This car appears to have a dealer installed AC system. There is no "K' on the data plate.
Robert
@Clay,
@rick,
FYI
The one I had measured 22"x2" and it seat flush with the inner front support panel lip, the rubber strip is similar to the new masticated rubber material.
HTH
Didn't the actual Factory AC cars have bigger springs up front, and a different rear end to account for the extra weight and drag on the engine?
Thanks
Yes, when I replaced the front and rear springs on my 56 Seville, there were 2 choices - AC or no AC (mine has AC). I assume the dealer would have upgraded these if a customer had AC installed.
Quote from: Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373 on May 14, 2024, 08:58:15 AMDidn't the actual Factory AC cars have bigger springs up front, and a different rear end to account for the extra weight and drag on the engine?
Thanks
I would think that it would have heavier springs in the rear, but I don't have any non-AC cars to compare to, other than the 55, and it's a different body style than my 56 coupe.
I do know that there's an 1/8" shim on top of the right front coil spring because of the weight of the compressor and related hardware.
Rick
Quote from: J. Gomez on May 14, 2024, 08:50:50 AM@Clay, @rick,
FYI
The one I had measured 22"x2" and it seat flush with the inner front support panel lip, the rubber strip is similar to the new masticated rubber material.
HTH
Here is what was advertised by the vendor. Look them up and enquire as to whether they still offer this item. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on May 14, 2024, 11:47:14 AMHere is what was advertised by the vendor. Look them up and enquire as to whether they still offer this item. Clay/Lexi
From looking at this, I can make my own without any problem. Like all of these shields, baffles, and splash guards, the hardest part is putting the damned staples in.
Thanks for the information though, I'll give them a look at least.
Rick