My black 60 CDV looks great except when the sun shows all the micro scratches. Some say glaze is the answer, if so what brand? Others say Rubbing compound. I have seen a product by Chemical Guys called Black Light Glaze which promises the moon. I am curious how members of this forum maintain and/or fix their black single stage paint. I am trying to go the least aggressive as possible since I can not replace the lacquer paint. Ill appreciate any and all suggestions.
Rubbing compound is too abrasive for this purpose. It should be used only on finishes that are heavily oxidized or have a lot of orange peel. Even polishing compound paste is too abrasive for micro scratches.
I'll let others on this forum recommend the liquid compound/cleaner that works best for them.
Thanks for the response. Takes two options off the table. Was leary of them. I might add, if whatever I do only gets 70% of it, that's ok. I want to preserve the paint so less aggressive is better in my book.
Quote from: Michael Petti on August 04, 2024, 09:41:04 AMThanks for the response. Takes two options off the table. Was leary of them. I might add, if whatever I do only gets 70% of it, that's ok. I want to preserve the paint so less aggressive is better in my book.
I am inclined to agree with both you and Jim. Defintely a situation where less is more as less is least destructive. I now use Mother's CMX Ceramic Spray based coating, a nano-technology based product, to hide scratches on my car. Unlike other products, I believe the ceramic product does more to alter the wave lengths of light to better integrate themselves so as to make the finish appear more "wet", hence uniform. Similar to why a wet road at night looks more uniformly dark with less of the imperfections showing as more of the reflected light is scattered off in other directions. Just my .02 cents worth. Just apply with a micro fibre cloth then wipe off when dry. Do not apply in direct sunlight as way too tough to remove swirl marks and streaks. Similar to using a detailer product. Attached are 3 shots of my old lacquer finish, before and after application of this product. The first shot shows the results during application. When I first applied this product I did a cut and buff and hope will not have to do that again. Probably too optimistic on that last point, but best to apply on the best possible finish you have. I apply it now twice a year. This is a less invasive means of making your car look better while protecting the original finish. There is now a far better product available that while more than double the cost, my son-in-law says provides a net gain over the Mother's ceramic coat. Will report back later if I remember to ask him what the new stuff is. Clay/Lexi
"There is now a far better product available that while more than double the cost, my son-in-law says provides a net gain over the Mother's ceramic coat. Will report back later if I remember to ask him what the new stuff is. Clay/Lexi"
Graphene?
AI Overview from Google
...
Graphene and ceramic coatings are both used to protect vehicle paint and can have similar gloss, hydrophobicity, and application methods. However, graphene coatings are generally considered to be superior to ceramic coatings in several ways:
Durability
Graphene coatings can last for more than five years, while ceramic coatings typically last two to five years.
Strength
Graphene coatings are stronger and harder than ceramic coatings, with a reported increase in yield strength of up to 34%.
Thermal conductivity
Graphene coatings have a thermal conductivity of around 5300–5400 W/mK, which is much higher than ceramic coatings and allows for faster heat transfer.
Corrosion resistance
Graphene coatings are highly resistant to corrosion due to their atomic tightness and uniformity, which prevents aggressive substances from penetrating.
Water resistance
Graphene coatings are less likely to develop water spots than ceramic coatings because water forms beads on the surface instead of evaporating, and the beads then slide off smoothly.
Electrical conductivity
Graphene coatings have higher electrical conductivity than ceramic coatings.
Environmental friendliness
Graphene coatings are considered to be more environmentally friendly than ceramic coatings.
Lacquer paint needs to breath, even at 60 years old. My recommendation would be pure carnuba wax with no additives. Most of these new waxes are formulated for new urethane finishes. I've seen many great lacquer paint jobs go flat because of poor finishing products back when lacquer was the standard in auto restoration.
Before doing anything abrasive, try doing the Meguiars #7 "soak" It's an old school formula that "feeds" the single-stage lacquer, and brings back a lot of the shine. You can find the specifics on one of the dedicated detailing forums like Autogeek. But basically you slather it on very liberally, like 1 1/2 to 2 bottles on a large car, and leave it overnight before rubbing it off. Then top it with whatever wax or ceramic you like.
That has been an issue with our 55. It was very faded, and the paint was thin and even worn theu in a few places.
I found a clay bar (lightly) really cleaned things up. Then several coats of carnuba wax. All done by hand.
It looks great, but loses it's shine after a while.
I'm still looking for more longer lasting results.
David, #7 is good stuff. Many people don't like it because it's not easy to wipe off, which is a good thing!
Jeff, (what a beautiful car!), the best thing is keep the carnuba on there. Longer lasting is more than likely full of other things that are not lacquer friendly. It's a good workout to wax a Cadillac.
If you ask a paint manufacturer what to use, they will most likely recommend nothing, or carnuba. (As long as they don't have their own line of paint care products.)
Most of these better than ever paint care products are not all that. Carnuba was the standard 60 years ago, long before modern paints came along, probably best to stick to that, IMO.
Meguiars #7 has apparently been around since 1922 or something like that. One of the detailing sites has a video that talks about it and shows a collection of bottles and how they've evolved over the years.
I think a lot of the new products are pretty great, but they are designed for modern paint, not single stage lacquer. My philosophy is to stay with old school stuff for that paint. I use more modern (but perhaps old school to some people) on my newer cars and older cars with modern paint. I have not yet ventured into the world or ceramics. It seems like the pros love that stuff, but they are usually dealing with new cars with new paint, and trying to be as quick/efficient as possible, in contrast to preparing an old car with lacquer paint for a car show.
Yesterday I decided to take a shot with some Torque ceramic polish I had on hand. Rubbed it in by hand in small areas as suggested by some of you and the color cam out beautiful. Unfortunately in direct sun the scratches are still there. Maybe covered 20% of them, so I still need something better.
A light polish, but not a compound, may be in order. Black shows everything which makes it difficult.
I'd suggest trying Meguiars M9 swirl remover. The 2.0 version is not as good as the original but will still work. I have been using the Meguiars line of product for years and highly recommend them.
Quote from: Michael Petti on August 06, 2024, 06:18:40 AMYesterday I decided to take a shot with some Torque ceramic polish I had on hand. Rubbed it in by hand in small areas as suggested by some of you and the color cam out beautiful. Unfortunately in direct sun the scratches are still there. Maybe covered 20% of them, so I still need something better.
As far as I know, Ceramic coatings don't remove scratches but can hide some of them, kinda like having a built in "polarizing-like" filter built into your paint, sort of. Some unwanted reflections are blocked, leaving a fantastic finish. That is why you should apply it on the best possible finish to start with. As David suggested a "polish" first may be in order. An experienced paint guy might even suggest a compound first, or as I did, do a cut and buff which will remove a number of them. A good paint guy should be able to advise after seeing your car's finish. Afterwards, you can re-apply the finish of your choice and hopefully be able to maintain it without ever having to aggessively deal with the imperfections in your original paint. I seem to recall some of the professional ceramic coating may last a couple of years. The Mother's product I wrote about above, does not appear to last that long. Got to ask my son-in-law about the new product he recommended. Attached image shows the CMX I was mentioning. The other shows Meguiars 7, which I think is the product David talked about. Yes, I saw that same video where the history and evolution of this product was discussed. I did try that a year or so back, but was not impressed with the results. Did not seem to be worth the effort. Seems others have had more luck with it. Clay/Lexi
The Meguiars #7 treatment seems to be better at "feeding" the paint and bringing out shine than removing swirls or scratches. There are certainly some swirls and scratches in my paint if you go looking for them, but I am very nervous about getting too aggressive with original paint that is thin in places, so at least for now I just consider it part of the patina of 63 year old original paint. If I could find an old school paint guy I trusted, I might consider more corrective action.
If it were mine, I would not hesitate to sand and buff very carefully. But I started out in paint work in the 70s, so I have experience with lacquer. With the nice high grits of sandpaper we have today, such as 3000 up to 8000 grit and finer, the surface would be almost polished before any hand rubbing had to take place. Always a big question is, has the car ever been repainted? And is it indeed lacquer? Not enamel? Old Centari enamel can buff up very well and is almost indistinguishable from lacquer.
Quote from: 35-709 on August 04, 2024, 07:19:07 PM"There is now a far better product available that while more than double the cost, my son-in-law says provides a net gain over the Mother's ceramic coat. Will report back later if I remember to ask him what the new stuff is. Clay/Lexi"
Graphene?
AI Overview from Google
...
Graphene and ceramic coatings are both used to protect vehicle paint and can have similar gloss, hydrophobicity, and application methods. However, graphene coatings are generally considered to be superior to ceramic coatings in several ways:
Durability
Graphene coatings can last for more than five years, while ceramic coatings typically last two to five years.
Strength
Graphene coatings are stronger and harder than ceramic coatings, with a reported increase in yield strength of up to 34%.
Thermal conductivity
Graphene coatings have a thermal conductivity of around 5300–5400 W/mK, which is much higher than ceramic coatings and allows for faster heat transfer.
Corrosion resistance
Graphene coatings are highly resistant to corrosion due to their atomic tightness and uniformity, which prevents aggressive substances from penetrating.
Water resistance
Graphene coatings are less likely to develop water spots than ceramic coatings because water forms beads on the surface instead of evaporating, and the beads then slide off smoothly.
Electrical conductivity
Graphene coatings have higher electrical conductivity than ceramic coatings.
Environmental friendliness
Graphene coatings are considered to be more environmentally friendly than ceramic coatings.
You are right. It was graphene that he recommended now over ceramic, I imagine for the reasons you stated. Will have to try it out. Thanks for posting. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Moody on August 06, 2024, 03:35:24 PMIf it were mine, I would not hesitate to sand and buff very carefully. But I started out in paint work in the 70s, so I have experience with lacquer. With the nice high grits of sandpaper we have today, such as 3000 up to 8000 grit and finer, the surface would be almost polished before any hand rubbing had to take place. Always a big question is, has the car ever been repainted? And is it indeed lacquer? Not enamel? Old Centari enamel can buff up very well and is almost indistinguishable from lacquer.
The car has been repainted long before I got it. I had a body guy who took a dent out my quarter panel tell me it was lacquer because of the way it ground off. I thought it was acrylic enamel myself, but who am I to argue? I am definitely going to research the graphene products. I hope they can be applied very easily by hand or with an orbital polisher because after my experience with hand applying the ceramic, the arthritis in my 78 year old hands limits my hand waxing with carnauba wax, to Match Box or Hot Wheels cars. Maybe a Smart Car but certainly not our Cadillacs.
Are there any alternatives to Meguiars nr 7?. I have two cars with their original single stage paint that I want to preserve. However,here in the Netherlands the nr 7 is simply not available. I contacted Meguiars HQ and they confirmed that they do not longer ship the nr 7 to Europe.... :-(.
Can you order #7 through other sources? I'm not sure about the exact additives, but I know it's good for paint.
Quote from: David Greenburg on August 04, 2024, 08:58:31 PMBefore doing anything abrasive, try doing the Meguiars #7 "soak" It's an old school formula that "feeds" the single-stage lacquer, and brings back a lot of the shine. You can find the specifics on one of the dedicated detailing forums like Autogeek. But basically you slather it on very liberally, like 1 1/2 to 2 bottles on a large car, and leave it overnight before rubbing it off. Then top it with whatever wax or ceramic you like.
Dave - you've not had an issue with the #7 drying on the surface by letting it sit overnight?
Jum- it does require some elbow grease, and sometimes a little more #7 to get it off.
just spray a little bit of water on dried wax or polish to rehydrate it enough to wipe off the excess
Quote from: David Greenburg on August 04, 2024, 08:58:31 PMBefore doing anything abrasive, try doing the Meguiars #7 "soak" It's an old school formula that "feeds" the single-stage lacquer, and brings back a lot of the shine. You can find the specifics on one of the dedicated detailing forums like Autogeek. But basically you slather it on very liberally, like 1 1/2 to 2 bottles on a large car, and leave it overnight before rubbing it off. Then top it with whatever wax or ceramic you like.
I can concur with the #7 trick, although the newer formula is not as good a stuff from a few years ago. I have a 1951 Olds 88 (sorry folks), with original black paint and the #7 makes it sparkle. A day or two later I cover with carnuba wax and it shines! However, neither of those two coatings cover or hide paint imperfections, more like a camouflage, the surface is so shiny you do not notice the imperfections as much.
Stefan
Posting to this older post because I was all the information. I appreciate all the information and have researched all the products suggested and then some. I have concluded that a little cutting will be needed to improve on the scratches and, since there is no oxidation I have tentatively settled on Meguires Ultimate Polish. It seems to be the least abrasive product that might still smooth out the edges of the scratches. Also, it is readily available at reasonable cost. I plan to clay bar, polish then wax. If I use pads, what color would be good? Yellow seems to be the most popular. I have a variable speed d/a sander, or I can use a 10inch orbital waxer with bonnets. What suggestions does anyone have for the pad color or the type of bonnet to use on the waxer, (foam, terrycloth or microfiber) or anything else for that matter? Hand application is out of the question. Thanks in advance for any help.
Presta Ultra Cutting Crème is what I used on this original lacquer paint '59. Tried all kinds of lighter polishes first but only the Presta restored the gloss. It has to be used with a 1,400 RPM buffer w/wool pad and a lot of care! Followed up with Meguiars 85 and then #7 by hand, then Carnauba wax.
I'll look that up. The car looks awesome.
I have had good results with the old school three step method. First 3M 5928 swirl and light scratch remover next polish (the one you suggest would be fine) and finally a good quality carnauba wax. I'm not familiar with the foam pad color coding but find the less aggressive polishing pad on a DA does a good job and is more forgiving and easier to use than the more aggressive pads. Hand remove after each step with microfiber clothes. The final step is to sit back and admire. Harry
I used a 5 step process to bring back the original lacquer on this 1959 SO paint Fleetwood. The pic of the hood with severe scuff marks was approached agressively with 3M purple bottle compound and a white waffle foam pad followed by a wool loop pad and 3M imperial white polish. This was followed up with Presta swirl remover and a black foam pad. Finally a carnuba wax. Important to wipe the surface between each application with a terry cloth and warm clear water. (my camera leaves dark circles, its not the paint)
That finish is awesome. The info is great keep it coming. I am curious about the bonnets for a waxer that would work.
Just my opinion and what has worked best for me is to apply the wax by hand in straight back and forth motion with a soft cloth and remove the same way with microfiber one and two. Harry
By habit, I've applied wax in a circular motion except near trim parts to keep it from building up the crevices. However, when using hand polish, Meguiars recommends going in a straight direction. This lessens the chance of swirls in the finish.
I would love to do it by hand as I have many times, but not possible anymore.That's why I asked about bonnets and or disc color.
My factory Sable Black painted '71 Eldorado Convertible was stripped to the metal in 2004 and repainted in black lacquer and it still gets compliments on the shiny paint. I have used a product called 3M Hand Glaze and applied it by hand and many observers ask if it is ". . . still the original paint?" Here is a link to the product and its description: https://www.jbtools.com/3m-39007-imperial-hand-glaze-39007-16-fl-oz/?wi=off&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAoJC-BhCSARIsAPhdfSjLvOUXKnoSvo-9tbjAwaTG1FCxnGS73frYxoW3pzVv1rqZD2a5WzEaAmyqEALw_wcB (https://www.jbtools.com/3m-39007-imperial-hand-glaze-39007-16-fl-oz/?wi=off&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAoJC-BhCSARIsAPhdfSjLvOUXKnoSvo-9tbjAwaTG1FCxnGS73frYxoW3pzVv1rqZD2a5WzEaAmyqEALw_wcB)
Maybe Amazon? Or one of the detailing sites like Autogeek would ship it.
Here's a link to Griot's Garage video showing the three step process using their products along with their orbital buffer: https://www.griotsgarage.com/how-to/polish/. They don't show a machine polisher for removing the different products to eliminate hand removal. I remember large diameter polishers years ago with bonnet type pads but have never used one. Harry
Quote from: Stefan Bartelski on August 26, 2024, 02:07:19 PMI have a 1951 Olds 88 (sorry folks)
Stefan
No apologies required. They were fast for their time and still very desirable.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on March 02, 2025, 01:32:47 PMBy habit, I've applied wax in a circular motion except near trim parts to keep it from building up the crevices.
You likely are aware to use a Camel's Hair or other specialty brush to remove the unsightly white crud as part of the detailing process.
Quote from: Carfreak on March 04, 2025, 10:46:29 AMYou likely are aware to use a Camel's Hair or other specialty brush to remove the unsightly white crud as part of the detailing process.
I use my old toothbrushes for that.
They do a good job, and the car smells minty fresh afterwards 🙂.
My '41 and '70 still have their lacquer finish. I use plain old carnuba wax - not a cleaner wax. I use a liquid form and leave it soak in overnight. I put 5 coats on my 41 and it really brings out the finish.
Thankyou everyone for the replies about techniques and products. I have investigated at every one of them.
I never thought of letting wax "soak in" but I am willing to try that. After researching the products and techniques suggested, I am going to wash the car (2 bucket method), clay bar it, use Meguires Ultimate Polish with a yellow foam pad on a D/A sander at about 3,000 OPM, then use a glaze or wax on it. Car comes out of storage soon, and I want to get started. I'll report back the results.
Here's my 41 after several coats of plain carnauba wax allowed to sit overnight. The finish was looking tired and I kept using cleaner waxes thinking could brighten it up but was probably just diminishing the paint. A friend suggested I try the multiple layers and I'm pleased with the results.
Did wax soaking take care of swirl marks without some sort of abrasive polishing?
Michael Petti...The product used for preconditioning of original lacquer is Meguiar's No 7. Not wax.
I've never done this myself but I can see how it would help to rejuvenate paint that has become dried out with age making the surface more responsive before using more abrasive compounds/polishes. There is a YouTube video on this in which a well known reconditioning shop demonstrates this method. Unfortunately I don't have a link. No matter- all he did was generously slather the No 7 product all over the body and let it sit overnight. Depending on severity, this process would be repeated. There is no need to buff off the remaining product from the surface between applications.
In effect, the paint "absorbs" the polish helping to soften it thus helping to provide better results rather than going straight at it with a buffer and compound alone.
Quote from: Michael Petti on March 23, 2025, 11:23:31 AMDid wax soaking take care of swirl marks without some sort of abrasive polishing?
I didn't have a lot of swirls or ones that at least showed on the gunmetal gray.
I want to thank everyone for their input. I researched every product, method and then some. (Lots of U-Tube videos) Chose Meguires polishes because of price, availability, and great phone-based tech assistance. I washed, dried and clay barred it. Clay bar took off dirt, even though paint seemed clean. Used Meguires SwirlX polish at about 5,000 opm on a d/a machine. Less aggressive than Ultimate Compound but more so than Ultimate Polish. It took out 75% of the swirls. Followed that with Meguire's Ultimate Polish at about 3,500 opm which removed (or made invisible) about 10% more. Followed that with a coat of Turtle Wax Black Wax applied by hand and removed with a 10" orbital buffer with a microfiber bonnet. Made imperfections even less noticeable. The car now has a deep black shine and unless one is specifically looking for the remaining scratches with a bright light or in direct sunlight at the right angle nothing shows. Now I'll need suggestions on what to topcoat this with to prevent more scratches, or is carnauba wax the best thing? Maybe I'll start a new thread on that subject. Should mention that SwirlX left a very slight haze on the paint, but ultimate polish took it right off. Thanks again for the help.
If you start asking for the best top coat (or what detailing geeks call an "LSP" - last step product), you are going to get 15 opinions from 10 people, kind of like "what is the best motor oil?" questions. What is best for you will depend on a number of factors. Do you want the best possible shine for an upcoming show, or do you want a durable shine that will last several months. Are you willing to g to put in the labor to maintain a carnauba shine. Is the car always garaged? Etc. etc. The prior owner of my '61 with mostly original black lacquer gave me the regimen he used, which got him a number of awards, including an AACA Senior, a CLC Senior, and a Past Presidents' Preservation Award, and I have generally stuck with that regimen, even though its pretty old school. His recommended LSP was multiple coats of a high quality carnauba like Pinnacle Souveran. But that requires regular upkeep to look its best. If you want something more durable, look at sealants instead of wax. Being old school in my detailing habits, I have not gotten on the ceramic bandwagon. But there are a number of good sealant products out there, and you can top them off with a layer of carnauba for some extra punch.
If you really want to go down the detailing rabbit hole and risk getting 50 opinions from 20 people, there are some forums dedicated to the subject where you can follow debates about what is best for certain types of paint, colors etc. The forum on AutoGeek.com is one such place. But be forewarned, you could get sucked into a vortex of waxes, polishes, treatments, equipment, microfibers and such which can have frightening impacts on your credit card statements. The community seems to be a mix of hard-core detailing nerds and professionals. If you want to stay in the "shallow end" I think there are sub-forum devoted to specific brands, like Meguiars, or Wolfgangs etc. There are also good how-to videos, including one on the Megiuars #7 soaking technique.