Question, does ethanol free fuel last any longer than fuel with ethanol?
Can you leave it in a vehicle over a long period without adding something like Stabil?
I just started using it in one of my trucks and it seems to run better and have more power, and I think it's getting better mileage, but I'll verify that once I fill up again.
I'm just wondering if there's any advantage to using ethanol-free fuel other than what I've noticed here.
Thanks for any advice. Rick
Yes and Yes. I wouldn't leave it to just sit for more than 6 months though. It also won't separate like E laced fuel will. The Ethanol sinks to the bottom over time being undisturbed.
Congrats on being able to find it where you are. Here in Florida, it's all over due to the large marine industry.
DATA POINT: Took many years for the Maine marine gas distributors to sell non-ethanol exclusively. After a six month seasonal lay up, Ethanol gas would sometimes draw in moisture, evaporate, "separate," and leave brown crud in carburetors causing serious issues if the engine in question couldn't pull the crud through idle passages. Running the engine without fuel supply before lay up really helped. But small outboards using plastic fuel tanks that were partly filled with ethanol gas before lay up could accumulate several ounces of water at the bottom of the tank...
I left ethanol free in my Delorean from February-October and it ended up smelling like varnish when I was ready to drive, so I pumped it all out and pumped new in. It may have been fine but I didn't want to chance it. I should have used Stabil but a simple engine task ultimately turned into a full rebuild.
Fuel with ethanol seemed to only last a week or two, longer and it would turn into a gummy substance. It also destroyed most of the rubber in the fuel system including fuel pressure regulators - ethanol free does not cause havoc like that.
I keep ethanol free fuel in both my DeLorean and the Cadillac. Unless you have updated rubber parts and daily drive your car, I suggest anyone else to do the same if they can find it.
The performance should not be that different assuming they were both the proper octane rating for the application unless it was due to the ethanol fuel absorbing moisture. Yes in theory the ethanol blend contains less energy than if it was pure gas but its a pretty small percentage and in most cases the engines we are running especially here are somewhat crude when it comes to fuel mixtures and have no way to compensate for different fuels like EFI typically do.
I don't currently own anything that requires the higher octane. Small engines like lawn equipment get the premium non ethanol year round. Usage of those tends to be erratic because it depends on things like weather so sometimes a tank of gas can last for several months. Also seems to help with vapor lock on hot restarts on the hot days when you are working them hard. With these the overall volume of fuel used is so small the higher cost isn't really a factor, the time it takes to clean one carb cost more in time than the extra cost.
Larger engines that also get occasional use also get it, again because I don't always know if I'm gonna use it all. Cars if I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be able to burn it all up within a few weeks I will use the cheaper ethanol stuff just to save a few bucks but if I know they are gonna or could end up sitting I will go for the non ethanol stuff and for sure when its the end of the season I will try and do the 2nd to last tank non ethanol as well as the full tank its going to sit with.
For example much of this summer in my area 'regular' was in the low $3 range. Ethanol premium was 0.50-0.75 more which was also where diesel seemed to be. The non ethanol was generally in the low $4's so at least $1 more. Lawnmower that maybe uses 2 gallons a month that's nuthn but part of the summer I was doing maybe 10 gallons a week in the 73 so $40 per month more. Is that a lot in the grand scheme of things especially these days? No not really but that is a decent meal out of one so why spend it on gas if you can buy the gas that still gets to to the steak house and leaves you money to buy the steak?
If your stuff is reasonably maintained and you are using it the ethanol should not really be a problem. Part of that maintenance is replacing things like hoses. Any quality brand name hose (gates, dayco) made in the last 20 or so years is going to tolerate the ethanol blends. If your hoses are over 20 years old you are on borrowed time no matter what fuels you run. Yes back in the 90's you would run into hoses that would turn to goo in one season and even today you still run into 'imported' equipment or parts that has plastic or rubber that turns to goo but I suspect that that stuff is just that low of quality it would have happened no matter what you ran in it. Its super common in small engine stuff where you buy a service kit or replacement carb and the hoses they come with are junk but when you are buying a complete carb that comes with hoses and filters for $20 and the OE made in USA gasket kit cost $50 what were you really expecting?
Now if you are not burning it up in a few weeks(ish)... well that's different. The ambient environment becomes a critical factor. If you are in a climate controlled garage or at least something that is fairly stable temp wise you may not really have issues. If you have that climate controlled garage and share it with your daily driver so the door and climate is at least briefly changing all the time you may have more issues. If you are in a poorly insulated garage that gets larger daily temp swings that may be made worse by the door opening to get the daily in you may have a problem. If you are outside with no shade is gonna be worse than if you have shade to slow down the swings. Rainy or coastal area with higher humidity? Thats gonna be worse. All these factors are gonna effect regular gas too but not to the same degree it seems to effect the ethanol.
The ethanol likes to absorb moisture and besides water being a crappy fuel it starts separating and chemically changes things which then can react with different materials and additives like say aluminum that most carbs are made of. And as those reactions start that can create yet new chemical reactions so you can get all sorts of science experiments going on in different areas of your fuel system. If you are moving/burning the fuel it doesn't have time to absorb that much moisture and what it does absorb still burns reasonably well and doesn't have time to sit and react with other things. The fuel flowing will tend to flush away any corrosion that tries to start. Alcohols tend to be good solvents so they can and actually do do some cleaning. That was actually a problem in the early days,
My area has been messing with ethanol blends for over 30 years now so I have seen and been through it all. We were among the first states to get it mandated and I believe we were also among the first to get an exception giving sellers the option to offer a premium octane/grade without it. By the time a majority of other states started with their mandates there were already several that had the exception option so many of them started out with that option from the start. Also note that there are several states that don't have any requirement to label the pumps as to what blend you may or may not be getting so just because where you buy gas doesn't say anything on the pump doesn't mean you are not getting it so if you are having issues maybe dig a little deeper and see if you are in a place that doesn't have to label it.
Sadly AZ only has ethanol fuels at the 91 min Octane rating. I typically use GUNK lead additive and the Lucas street octane booster in both the 59 Cad and 66 Olds with great results. They are so smooth and quiet its amazing. If those chemicals are not used they get a little cranky.
I think its pretty rare to have a 'regular' 87/88 octane grade of non ethanol available. If anyone lives in such a place let us know, I am curious. I know in my state and I suspect others the premium grade was part of the compromise. Since there really isn't any practical way to enforce the 'rule' of its only to be used in classic, recreational, and small equipment the way 'they' keep people from using it in their daily drivers is simply the cost being a premium option.
I'm not sure if its a state law/rule but at least with the brand I usually get mine from and the alternate brand they both have a label on the pump that has that classic recreational message on it which I believe is also the sticker that states its non ethanol. I'm not a huge marina guy, my boat is trailered everywhere so I don't need to buy from the docks but what I have seen there other than higher prices is the same as regular outlets, regular and premium with no ethanol. I do recall that the marinas were the last holdouts besides a few rural co-ops that had 'leaded' gas. I think they were on a sliding scale where every year the amount was reduced to the point there was no point so everyone involved gave up.
I do wonder if it really cost the gas station that much more than the other options or if maybe its got a higher markup because they think and do get it. I'm in a pretty good sized metro area and its very common to have at least 2 if not 3 or even 4 gas stations on the same block so they all have to compete on prices. I don't know of any cases like that where more than one offers the non ethanol. If you want regular they are all the same price but if you want non ethanol you either pay the asking price or possibly drive several to many miles to the next station that offers it.
I guess thats' where the apps like gas buddy come in you can find out if its worth the drive for the lower cost product but I don't think those usually note if its non ethanol so you have to go to a site like pure gas or just know which ones offer it then decide.
Base octane of regular gasoline is 84. Add the 10% Ethanol and that raises the rating to 87. Base premium is 90 octane. Add the 10% Ethanol and it becomes 93. There are some non-ethanol blends that are 89 in which a small percentage of regular is blended with the premium to get the 89 octane. The Ethanol is blended into the base stock at the tanker loading facility and a 10% rate.
If all you have is fuel that is laced and need pure gas for a small engine, just take any amount and add water to it and shake it. The water will pull the Ethanol out of the gasoline and both will sink to the bottom of the container. Then just pour off the pure gasoline. You will need premium gasoline to start with for this, otherwise you will end up with 84 octane regular and that may be too low for anything to properly run on it.
Use this link to find clean gas.
https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=TX
Plug in your state and it should show you the vendors in your area. I have several here in Texas.
I don't like leaving ethanol fuel in my vintage vehicles or equipment if not being used for several months so I fill up with "recreational" gasoline which is typically 91 octane (higher than what I need) but ethanol free and pretty common to find in Michigan. For any cars or equipment that I know may sit for long periods I use AvGas. At 100 octane, it is a bit high for most of my engines but the stuff doesn't get stale and doesn't varnish. I've never been impressed with StaBil - it might be okay for 6 months to a year. AvGas....5, 6, 7 years....not a problem.
Quote from: Moody on December 03, 2024, 05:22:04 PMUse this link to find clean gas.
https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=TX
Plug in your state and it should show you the vendors in your area. I have several here in Texas.
I only use ethanol free gas in my '49 Cadillac. On long trips, such as to Grand Nationals, I use the
www.pure-gas.org map feature to identify gas stations along the route selling ethanol free gas. It varies quite a bit between states. Some states have many such gas stations, while others have very few.
Quote from: Big Fins on December 03, 2024, 04:04:19 AMYes and Yes. I wouldn't leave it to just sit for more than 6 months though. It also won't separate like E laced fuel will. The Ethanol sinks to the bottom over time being undisturbed.
Congrats on being able to find it where you are. Here in Florida, it's all over due to the large marine industry.
Supposedly it's been available for a while here, but I've only recently been able to find a station that has it. Now there's several Circle K's that are selling it, and a new one is getting ready to open that's on my way into town, which will be very convenient.
Thanks for your response. Rick
Quote from: James Landi on December 03, 2024, 06:54:11 AMDATA POINT: Took many years for the Maine marine gas distributors to sell non-ethanol exclusively. After a six month seasonal lay up, Ethanol gas would sometimes draw in moisture, evaporate, "separate," and leave brown crud in carburetors causing serious issues if the engine in question couldn't pull the crud through idle passages. Running the engine without fuel supply before lay up really helped. But small outboards using plastic fuel tanks that were partly filled with ethanol gas before lay up could accumulate several ounces of water at the bottom of the tank...
Yeah, I've had to rebuild a few carburetors thanks to the ethanol crap. Fortunately they were just small engine carbs, but one I had to replace because it was so bad.
Thanks for your input James, much appreciated. Rick
Quote from: dn010 on December 03, 2024, 09:12:12 AMI left ethanol free in my Delorean from February-October and it ended up smelling like varnish when I was ready to drive, so I pumped it all out and pumped new in. It may have been fine but I didn't want to chance it. I should have used Stabil but a simple engine task ultimately turned into a full rebuild.
Fuel with ethanol seemed to only last a week or two, longer and it would turn into a gummy substance. It also destroyed most of the rubber in the fuel system including fuel pressure regulators - ethanol free does not cause havoc like that.
I keep ethanol free fuel in both my DeLorean and the Cadillac. Unless you have updated rubber parts and daily drive your car, I suggest anyone else to do the same if they can find it.
Dan, are you up north in the cold?
I've been able to keep the regular ethanol fuel with Stabil for about a year, maybe a year and a half if I used enough Stabil, but I'm down here on the Mexican border where we seldom see snow. But I've screwed up and forgot to write down when I put fuel in some of these vehicles, and I almost ruined a new engine in my 64 truck. After starting it I noticed it had a knock, and after some detective work with a borescope I found a couple of cylinders with fuel staining, probably from the varnish, as it's carbureted, and the heat was causing fuel to be pushed from the tank and it percolated out of the carb and into the
engine, and I hadnt noticed it for months. After running it for several hours and getting it hot, the staining was worn or burned off and the knock was gone.
Strangest thing I've ever run across.
But I need to flush the whole system and then use the ethanol-free stuff from now on.
I just wanted to know if it's worth the effort and expense, or if I should invest in Stabil stock.
Thanks for chiming in, I appreciate your input. Rick
TJ,
I'm only basing my statement on my butt-dyno, as I don't have a real one to test with. I think it's getting better mileage, but I'll know more once I fuel up again.
This particular vehicle is a 90 Suburban with throttle body injection, so there's no need to adjust anything on my part.
On my 88 Suburban, I'm in the middle of converting it to a carburetor and I'm not sure I want to run ethanol through it. I spent a few weeks tearing down over 50 Quadrajets and boxing everything into those compartmentalized containers, and another week building one for this truck. I don't want ethanol messing it up. Both of them use a barrel for a fuel tank, 40 gallons each, and since I don't drive as much as I used to, the fuel sits in them for a while.
Thanks for your input. Rick
Quote from: Cadillac Jack 82 on December 03, 2024, 11:28:46 AMSadly AZ only has ethanol fuels at the 91 min Octane rating. I typically use GUNK lead additive and the Lucas street octane booster in both the 59 Cad and 66 Olds with great results. They are so smooth and quiet its amazing. If those chemicals are not used they get a little cranky.
Hi Tim,
I don't remember what the octane rating was when I got it, it's been a few weeks now, but I did notice that it was higher than the regular, and cost more than the premium.
Once I get the 56 going, I'll use ethanol-free in it. The 472 will have a 9.3:1 compression ratio if I remember correctly. I had that machine work done over 30 years ago, so not sure now, but I know it's not the original 10.5:1 it started with.
I appreciate your advice, thanks. Rick
Quote from: Big Fins on December 03, 2024, 12:20:28 PMIf all you have is fuel that is laced and need pure gas for a small engine, just take any amount and add water to it and shake it. The water will pull the Ethanol out of the gasoline and both will sink to the bottom of the container. Then just pour off the pure gasoline. You will need premium gasoline to start with for this, otherwise you will end up with 84 octane regular and that may be too low for anything to properly run on it.
That's really interesting, I'll have to try that out on a quart one time and see if I can get a mower to run on it. Thanks.
Rick
Quote from: Jay Friedman on December 04, 2024, 11:03:54 AMI only use ethanol free gas in my '49 Cadillac. On long trips, such as to Grand Nationals, I use the
www.pure-gas.org map feature to identify gas stations along the route selling ethanol free gas. It varies quite a bit between states. Some states have many such gas stations, while others have very few.
I put the link into my notes for future reference. It does list the two Circle K's in my area that I know have it now.
Thanks, Rick
Then you can check Gas Buddy.com to see which station has the cheaper price.
Note: First thing in the morning and at lunch time, it's impossible to get near those ethanol-free pumps. The landscapers have them locked down tight filling up their equipment. Then they have to get ice, drinks, breakfast burritos and whatever. They don't hurry either.
Early Sunday morning is the best time.
Quote from: Cadman-iac on December 04, 2024, 11:53:23 AMHi Tim,
I don't remember what the octane rating was when I got it, it's been a few weeks now, but I did notice that it was higher than the regular, and cost more than the premium.
Once I get the 56 going, I'll use ethanol-free in it. The 472 will have a 9.3:1 compression ratio if I remember correctly. I had that machine work done over 30 years ago, so not sure now, but I know it's not the original 10.5:1 it started with.
I appreciate your advice, thanks. Rick
Are you in Maricopa? I know theres a few places that sell race fuel, but everything around here is ethanol based.
Quote from: Big Fins on December 04, 2024, 12:07:11 PMThen you can check Gas Buddy.com to see which station has the cheaper price.
Note: First thing in the morning and at lunch time, it's impossible to get near those ethanol-free pumps. The landscapers have them locked down tight filling up their equipment. Then they have to get ice, drinks, breakfast burritos and whatever. They don't hurry either.
Early Sunday morning is the best time.
Lol!! I can get around the yard crews here, the few stations that sell ethanol-free fuel have a nozzle on every pump for it, so you can pull up to any pump, which is really nice.
Rick
Quote from: Cadillac Jack 82 on December 04, 2024, 12:58:18 PMAre you in Maricopa? I know theres a few places that sell race fuel, but everything around here is ethanol based.
No, I'm in Cochise County where they have to pipe sunlight in, lol!
I know they sell race fuel at these stores too, my wife came home one day after filling up her car and didn't look at the receipt until then, she had filled up with race gas. Car ran good for a while after that.
Rick
Hey, it is legal to run ethanol-free gas in a newer car, isn't it?
The lack of ethanol doesn't hurt the vehicle right?
I wouldn't think it would, but I might be missing something here, so I thought I'd ask.
Rick
Legal is an interesting question. It does appear to be up to the individual states, guessing its like most things and the feds set a minimum but the states can go further if they choose. I just spend some time banging around Minnesota statutes and all I can find on the subject relate to the selling side of things. So far I have not found anything about any enforcement or penalties for say a gas station that is 'caught' letting someone use the fuel against what the label says. Also nothing about any sort of penalty for the buyer.
Here is the section from the MN site:
Subd. 12.Exemption for collector vehicle and off-road use. (a) A person responsible for the product may offer for sale, sell, or dispense at a retail gasoline station for use in collector vehicles or vehicles eligible to be licensed as collector vehicles, off-road vehicles, motorcycles, boats, snowmobiles, or small engines, gasoline that is not oxygenated in accordance with subdivision 1 if the person meets the conditions in paragraphs (b) to (d). If the nonoxygenated gasoline is for use in a small engine, it must be dispensed into a can with a capacity of six or fewer gallons.
(b) The nonoxygenated gasoline must be unleaded premium grade as defined in section 239.751, subdivision 4.
(c) No more than one storage tank on the premises of the retail gasoline station may be used for storage of the nonoxygenated gasoline offered for sale, sold, or dispensed by the station.
(d) The pump stands must be posted with a permanent notice stating: "NONOXYGENATED GASOLINE. FOR USE IN COLLECTOR VEHICLES OR VEHICLES ELIGIBLE TO BE LICENSED AS COLLECTOR VEHICLES, OFF-ROAD VEHICLES, MOTORCYCLES, BOATS, SNOWMOBILES, OR SMALL ENGINES ONLY."
This notice must be posted at least two feet above the ground. A retail gasoline station that sells nonoxygenated premium gasoline as defined in section 239.791, subdivision 15, must register every two years with the director, or an entity appointed by the director, on forms approved by the director, the total amount of nonoxygenated premium gasoline sold annually.
Quote from: LaSalle5019 on December 04, 2024, 11:00:32 AMI don't like leaving ethanol fuel in my vintage vehicles or equipment if not being used for several months so I fill up with "recreational" gasoline which is typically 91 octane (higher than what I need) but ethanol free and pretty common to find in Michigan. For any cars or equipment that I know may sit for long periods I use AvGas. At 100 octane, it is a bit high for most of my engines but the stuff doesn't get stale and doesn't varnish. I've never been impressed with StaBil - it might be okay for 6 months to a year. AvGas....5, 6, 7 years....not a problem.
Do you have any experiences or impressions that the high octane cause higher heat of the engine?
I could imagine that the high explosive fuel today burns a lot faster and heater than the old fuel decades ago.
Did you change your ignition timing while using 100 octane more to a later point?
I am always not sure about the old engins with using the very high octante fuel, because they have a low copression rate and need normally only 78 octane fuel, which is not longer available anymore.
Regards Oliver
Quote from: Cadman-iac on December 04, 2024, 11:30:25 AMDan, are you up north in the cold?
I've been able to keep the regular ethanol fuel with Stabil for about a year, maybe a year and a half if I used enough Stabil, but I'm down here on the Mexican border where we seldom see snow. But I've screwed up and forgot to write down when I put fuel in some of these vehicles, and I almost ruined a new engine in my 64 truck. After starting it I noticed it had a knock, and after some detective work with a borescope I found a couple of cylinders with fuel staining, probably from the varnish, as it's carbureted, and the heat was causing fuel to be pushed from the tank and it percolated out of the carb and into the
engine, and I hadnt noticed it for months. After running it for several hours and getting it hot, the staining was worn or burned off and the knock was gone.
Strangest thing I've ever run across.
But I need to flush the whole system and then use the ethanol-free stuff from now on.
I just wanted to know if it's worth the effort and expense, or if I should invest in Stabil stock.
Thanks for chiming in, I appreciate your input. Rick
I've been in Florida for the past 14 years now, about 30 minutes from Tampa. Wawa gas stations here all serve ethanol free so I'm lucky to be able to get it. It's the E85 that is hard to come by here (my 2019 F150 5.0 is flex fuel and runs best on the E85), only Thornton's gas stations sell that and I have two near me compared to the dozens of other stations. When we had back-to-back hurricanes a few months ago, I had to put ethanol free in the truck mixed with probably 1/2 tank of E85 and it did fine - ethanol free was all you could find for a while (no one wanted to pay for it, and when they closed the pumps, they lead you to believe ALL gas is out at that pump, you had to look at the ethanol free pumps specifically to see if the price was still showing, meaning there was still some of it left in it to buy! Funny the things you have to go through in desperate times).
I've experienced way too many rubber part failures, dirty carbs and dirty fuel tanks to continue with ethanol gas in my classics and small engines so to me it is worth the expense to get the ethanol free AND stabil. I even keep an 8 gallon fuel pack of ethanol free on hand but will cycle it into a car after about 3-4 months to keep things fresh, that is if I don't use it in a small engine but now that it is getting "cold" out, I won't have to do yard work until April.
I noticed you wrote you're in Cochise county- I used to live down there - first when I was stationed in Ft Huachuca and then I moved down the road to Huachuca City. I really do miss it there; those great drives to Tucson, Bisbee and Tombstone being one thing. We actually did see snow once on Ft. Huachuca, I think it was 2006, the entire base shut down because no one knew how to drive in the stuff. I was an MP so I had to be out on the road, I had just come from living in New York so it was no big deal to me. Anyway, enough of the walk back in time, but time really does fly by.
Welp this topic brings up a very interesting point. Failure of items due to ethanol. I just had a mechanical pump fail on me right outside the grocery store. Luckily O'Reilly 6 miles away had one last pump available. I was able to swap them out with some cursing and get on my way. What would cause a pump, which was only a year old, to suddenly fail? Is ethanol that detrimental to rubber components?
Quote from: Cadillac Jack 82 on December 05, 2024, 03:14:33 PMWelp this topic brings up a very interesting point. Failure of items due to ethanol. I just had a mechanical pump fail on me right outside the grocery store. Luckily O'Reilly 6 miles away had one last pump available. I was able to swap them out with some cursing and get on my way. What would cause a pump, which was only a year old, to suddenly fail? Is ethanol that detrimental to rubber components?
Very good question. I had my newly rebuilt engine equipped with a new fuel pump in 2019. It has been in there for about 6 years now. The fuel pump is still operational and not showing signs that it should be replaced. Do I know how much ethanol passed through my car in those 6 years? No, I do not. But still, 6 years today is a fairly good run for a replacement fuel pump. I wonder if in your case that internal valve component required staking? Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Cadillac Jack 82 on December 05, 2024, 03:14:33 PMWelp this topic brings up a very interesting point. Failure of items due to ethanol. I just had a mechanical pump fail on me right outside the grocery store. Luckily O'Reilly 6 miles away had one last pump available. I was able to swap them out with some cursing and get on my way. What would cause a pump, which was only a year old, to suddenly fail? Is ethanol that detrimental to rubber components?
The valves on the airtex replacement 1950s fuel pumps fail, not staked in properly so they come loose, or in my case the rubber part of the valves went hard. I swapped them for new ones and it worked fine. The diaphragm was untouched, still like new.
I've had the same issue with my 1948 Buick Roadmaster. Installed a new pump, it went dead in 3 months. Its a shame that quality has reached a point where its non existent.
TJ,
I guess that since they have the ethanol-free stuff available at every pump at each of these stations that it must be ok to use if you're willing to pay the price. The fact that the nozzle will fit into the filler neck is another indication, as I recall when leaded fuel was still available the nozzle was too big to fit any vehicle that wasn't supposed to use it.
Thanks for looking into it in your state.
Rick
Quote from: dn010 on December 05, 2024, 11:17:46 AMI've been in Florida for the past 14 years now, about 30 minutes from Tampa. Wawa gas stations here all serve ethanol free so I'm lucky to be able to get it. It's the E85 that is hard to come by here (my 2019 F150 5.0 is flex fuel and runs best on the E85), only Thornton's gas stations sell that and I have two near me compared to the dozens of other stations. When we had back-to-back hurricanes a few months ago, I had to put ethanol free in the truck mixed with probably 1/2 tank of E85 and it did fine - ethanol free was all you could find for a while (no one wanted to pay for it, and when they closed the pumps, they lead you to believe ALL gas is out at that pump, you had to look at the ethanol free pumps specifically to see if the price was still showing, meaning there was still some of it left in it to buy! Funny the things you have to go through in desperate times).
I've experienced way too many rubber part failures, dirty carbs and dirty fuel tanks to continue with ethanol gas in my classics and small engines so to me it is worth the expense to get the ethanol free AND stabil. I even keep an 8 gallon fuel pack of ethanol free on hand but will cycle it into a car after about 3-4 months to keep things fresh, that is if I don't use it in a small engine but now that it is getting "cold" out, I won't have to do yard work until April.
I noticed you wrote you're in Cochise county- I used to live down there - first when I was stationed in Ft Huachuca and then I moved down the road to Huachuca City. I really do miss it there; those great drives to Tucson, Bisbee and Tombstone being one thing. We actually did see snow once on Ft. Huachuca, I think it was 2006, the entire base shut down because no one knew how to drive in the stuff. I was an MP so I had to be out on the road, I had just come from living in New York so it was no big deal to me. Anyway, enough of the walk back in time, but time really does fly by.
Lol!! Yeah, I've always had to laugh at people here whenever it snows, (which isn't very often). I grew up here, (since '68), and didn't get much experience driving in snow either, until I was stationed in Germany for 2 years, I got lots of experience then, in a duce-and-a half fuel tanker and a 5 ton wrecker.
When I got back I was stationed at Fort Bliss in El Paso, and the first winter there was hilarious. Watching these cars with bald tires trying to get over the overpass above the train tracks and piling up at the bottom was priceless.
Most people don't know where Fort Huachuca is unless they were stationed here, so whenever I explain where I'm at its usually "90 miles southeast of Tucson" and then they get it.
Rick
Quote from: Cadillac Jack 82 on December 05, 2024, 03:14:33 PMWelp this topic brings up a very interesting point. Failure of items due to ethanol. I just had a mechanical pump fail on me right outside the grocery store. Luckily O'Reilly 6 miles away had one last pump available. I was able to swap them out with some cursing and get on my way. What would cause a pump, which was only a year old, to suddenly fail? Is ethanol that detrimental to rubber components?
I've never had a mechanical pump go out due to ethanol, but I've had several of the old solenoid style AC Delco pumps go bad from it. I bought rebuild kits and went through 3 pumps that I used to use as backups in case the mechanical one failed, and every one was ruined again by the ethanol, so I gave up on those. I doubt you can even get an ethanol proof kit for one anyway because of how old they are. I think the pump number was an EP12, or something similar.
Now that I'm installing a mechanical pump on my 88 Burb, I'm worried that it's gonna fail for one of two reasons, it's Chinese being the main reason, ethanol being the other.
I still have a new mechanical pump for my 472 that I bought over 30 years ago when I rebuilt the engine, and I'm hoping that by the time I get around to actually using it that it's still going to work. It was a Napa pump, so I'm fairly confident that it was a good one.
The one on the Burb is a Carter I got from rockauto made for a 72 Chevelle if memory serves.
I hope you have better luck with your latest pump. If it's built to be disassembled for repair, you can easily check for the cause of failure, but if it's like most pumps it's crimped together and the only way to check it is to cut it apart, which negates rebuilding/repairing it.
I really wish you could still get a pump that can be repaired, but even if you could, you probably couldn't get the parts to do it with.
Rick
Quote from: PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 on December 05, 2024, 04:08:58 PMThe valves on the airtex replacement 1950s fuel pumps fail, not staked in properly so they come loose, or in my case the rubber part of the valves went hard. I swapped them for new ones and it worked fine. The diaphragm was untouched, still like new.
Phil,
Yours must have been a bolt-together pump.
Where did you find parts to repair it with?
Rick
Quote from: Cadillac Jack 82 on December 05, 2024, 04:19:44 PMI've had the same issue with my 1948 Buick Roadmaster. Installed a new pump, it went dead in 3 months. Its a shame that quality has reached a point where its non existent.
Tim,
Isn't Chinese quality wonderful? That's another oxymoron like military intelligence or jumbo shrimp, laughable if not for the billions of wasted dollars on their crap and the frustration they cause.
I really hope our manufacturing is brought back onshore, I'd gladly pay more for a quality product.
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on December 06, 2024, 11:31:26 AM...I really wish you could still get a pump that can be repaired, but even if you could, you probably couldn't get the parts to do it with.
Rick
I still got a number of bolt together cores if anyone is interested, from 1954 - 1958 if memory serves. Now and Then Automotive still sells rebuild kits. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on December 06, 2024, 01:03:49 PMI still got a number of bolt together cores if anyone is interested, from 1954 - 1958 if memory serves. Now and Then Automotive still sells rebuild kits. Clay/Lexi
Yeah, I've got a small collection of old rebuildable fuel pumps from various makes, but I didn't look for a kit for any since I wasn't positive as to what any of them came off of specifically, and today's parts people only know what their computer tells them.
I could have bought one from Summit Racing for an astronomical fee, but decided to try a Carter first. We'll see what happens.
Rick
I did some more digging in the states website and found mention of I think the term was investigators (or maybe it was inspectors) and or their appointed agents and the words shall be charged with a misdemeanor (vs a felony) but nothing that I could find saying who these agents were. Would they be local police? Or State Patrol? You would think they would have to be one or the other if charges are being filed.
There was specifics for AV gas and offroad diesel but those were related to taxes which isn't the issue with non etahanol, its got the road tax on it in my state and I assume others too. State patrol is who I see and have heard of going after the off road diesel but in all cases I have seen or heard of its got a commercial angle, its a big rig, its a lawn service or construction company that is picking up fuel for their equipment and then putting that fuel in their pickup instead of the more expensive road taxed stuff. I remember being concerned about that when I bought one of my diesel Eldorados because it had the red dyed off road fuel in it. Its dyed so that even if you use it up it still leaves stains in the filters.
I did read in the laws that there is some sort of tip line where people, maybe the FBO at an airport or gas station attendant can report misuse but again that only seems to pertain to the road tax issue. The diesel being dyed is fairly easy to enforce because they don't have to catch you filling they just have to find it or evidence of it in your rig while its on a public road. Av gas not being died I would think they would have to just about have to have one of these agents witness the whole process. Av gas I don't think is a huge issue due to the higher cost and hassle involved for the average person but then again with how common it appears to be to have these on airport hangar condos where people store things like classic cars along with maybe even a plane who knows.....
Yes when unleaded became required is when they (the feds I assume) started standardized nozzle thing. Unleaded rigs got that restrictor plate that would only accept 13/16" or smaller, I want to say the nozzles are 3/4"? Leaded was 7/8(14/16) so won't fit in a 13/16 hole. With leaded being phased that 7/8 was sort of an orphan for may years. I'm not sure if lead was completely gone yet when the ethanol thing came up in the mid 90's so it may not have really been an option at the time.
If they did do the leaded nozzle thing at the time, lets say it was 1995 that would have caused a problem here in MN were the rule is 20 years old. You could have had a 1975 car which was unleaded and had the restrictor plate that was 20 years old and did then qualify to use the non ethanol. That problem would only get worse year to year because there would be more cars that would need modification or some sort of funnel adapters.
There is also another twist. At some point in the 2000's somebody somewhere in the USA decided that people with diesel cars (not trucks or other equipment) were not smart enough to not put gas in their cars so they 'standardized' that car diesel would use the old leaded nozzle size and the cars (VW was the biggest seller) would have a somewhat complex restrictor that will only accept the 7/8. If you try to put something smaller in like the 3/4 it won't open the little internal door and let it in. You also can't use the more typical 1" to 1 1/4" nozzles found at the truck islands.
My first new VW diesel was a 2013 and it had it so it started sometime before that, I don't think it was too much earlier. Typically what you see is if there are diesel pumps mixed in with the regular gas pumps those will have the 7/8 nozzle. Trucks and equipment don't have any sort of restrictor so they can still use them. If there is a truck area those will have the larger and faster nozzles. If there are not diesel pumps mixed in then you usually have to drive around the truck area and look for one with the smaller nozzle, there usually is one on an end. VW did sell an adapter kit which was basically a funnel in a storage jar that included a pair of rubber gloves. I think back in 2013 I had to use it one time for fuel and then I used it a few times for additives since you can't just poke the little flap open to dump stuff in the tank.
Quote from: Cadman-iac on December 06, 2024, 11:34:31 AMPhil,
Yours must have been a bolt-together pump.
Where did you find parts to repair it with?
Rick
I had an AC pump kit for a British car sitting on my shelf and the valves were the same size. Pure luck. I knew the diaphragm was OK because before I removed the pump I sucked the fuel up with a bulb pump on the outlet side of the fuel pump then reconnected the pipe to the carb and it worked fine. But when turned off and it had drained back I had to repeat the operation.
TJ,
I've always heard about using avgas in a vehicle for more power, and in recent years to keep from using ethanol fuel, but I've never tried to get any. Not having any reason to go to the airport and not knowing anyone with a plane I wouldn't know where to go to get it anyway. The legality was always another deterrent to trying too.
I didn't see any signs on the ethanol-free pumps stating that you can't use it in a newer vehicle, and the fact that the nozzle fits into any vehicle leads one to believe it's not illegal, just expensive.
I would think that if they didn't want it used in newer vehicles, the nozzles would have been made larger like the old leaded gas ones to prevent its use.
I've heard horror stories about people putting gasoline in their diesel vehicles, but never heard of anyone putting diesel in their gasoline vehicles, probably because of the larger diesel nozzles.
Of course it's possible to do either using fuel from a can, and I've heard of that before.
Since I'm no longer running back and forth to work, I only have to fuel up about once every 2 months on average, unless I've got something to haul.
The next time I go to the station I'll double-check for any labels or signage as to usage restrictions on the ethanol-free stuff. I'd like to keep using it if it's possible, (and I can afford it), I hate what ethanol does to everything it touches.
Thanks for your input.
Rick
Quote from: Oliver Betker on December 05, 2024, 04:01:15 AMDo you have any experiences or impressions that the high octane cause higher heat of the engine?
I could imagine that the high explosive fuel today burns a lot faster and heater than the old fuel decades ago.
Did you change your ignition timing while using 100 octane more to a later point?
I am always not sure about the old engins with using the very high octante fuel, because they have a low copression rate and need normally only 78 octane fuel, which is not longer available anymore.
Regards Oliver
I do set the timing advanced quite a bit on my 1920s cars as they were designed for 40 or 50 octane fuels so just running close to 90 octane is a huge difference. On my 1939 LaSalle. I only run a few more degrees advanced since it was designed around 75 octane so 90ish isn't too much of a stretch. My 1960s car are fine using any anything from 90-100 with standard timing.
With higher octane, the gasoline requires a bit more heat/pressure to ignite so you want to light them off a bit earlier in older low compression engines to avoid late burning in the power and exhaust strokes which would overheat the engine. Retarding the timing is the wrong direction for that.
Going to your question of using 100LL AvGas in older cars or equipment. For a number of museum cars I managed, they use 100LL and run fine on it. That includes 13 cars from 1903 - 1937, single cylinder, twin cylinder, 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, straight 8 and V8 cars. I've not had any problems. Most of the early cars have manually controlled spark timing so you just set it for best results. The later cars were designed when compression ratios and octane ratings were increased so the higher octane rating doesn't have much of an affect. The reason these cars might run AvGas all the time is they will sit for several years before being run again. I've run several of my cars on AvGas but that is usually just a tank full after they sat for a year or so. My generator and ditch pump seem to run fine on it with no issues but again, were designed for something close to 90 octane. I also used it in all the fire department equipment for a number of years when I was there since we would hardly ever use some of those items except for a monthly startup test. Solved a bunch of varnished up carbs and fuel tanks. I primarily advocate for AvGas when you either know something may sit for more than a year or are not sure how long the gasoline may sit before being used.
Guess its a good question for those following this thread. How are the non ethanol pumps labeled in your state? Just simply 'doesn't contain ethanol'? That would be interesting if that was also the states where they don't require to label the pumps that do contain it. In MN they have to label ethanol as such and its worded as 'contains up to %' which implies it may not contain any which is curious. I wonder if that was written that way in case there was a shortage of ethanol? Any other states that label it also have that up to in their labels?
Here in Florida, of what I have seen in my purchases, it's labeled "Rec 90".
Rec, presumably standing for recreational? No other info so you just have to know? What other options do the stations you frequent offer? Like is there a 90 with ethanol too? Are the other grades noted as containing ethanol?
The typical wawa pumps here has three nozzles. One green (diesel), one red (regular/ethanol) and one blue (labeled "Ethanol-Free").
Regular with ethanol gives you the choice of 87, 89, or 93 at an ethanol-free pump. If you go to a pump that does not have ethanol-free it will have only two nozzles, Green for Diesel and Red for ethanol regular fuel and you get four choices at this pump: 87, 89, 91 or 93.
The red nozzle/regular ethanol nozzle does have a big sticker warning of fuel containing up to 10% ethanol on all pumps.
Ethanol-Free is 89. There is no notice or disclaimer at or on the pump when you select Ethanol-free.
Interesting, WaWa in Florida at least appears to offer the usual 3 grades of ethanol plus a mid grade of non. In MN it appears as if if the station offers non ethanol it replaces the premium option. One reason for this could be that many of our stations also offer E-85 so it could just be a practicality thing with the number of pumps and tanks required.
I would say the most common pump I see has 2 hoses and 4 buttons. How they divide it up seems to depend on the brand but most common is say the left hose has 3 buttons and you can select your usual 3 grades of ethanol blends. The 4th button which has its own hose would then be E-85 or diesel. One brand also does I think a E-15 mid grade so in that case the 3 buttons are regular, E-15, and mid then the one with its own hose is the non ethanol premium.
The hose nozzle color is a mess. I don't know if some states mandate them, ones I have been to don't seem to. For a while it seemed like maybe they were trying but then different brands seem to try and do their own thing. Like for a while it seemed like green was diesel but then BP bought out Amoco and made their nozzles green to match their brand.
I use Stabil 360 and Marvels oil in my tanks for the winter, and half the suggested amount of Stabil for the rest of the year just to preserve gas better. Always fill up at a high volume gas station for fresh gas.
Marvels will help with separation, and if the gas goes a little stale it can help a lot with the gummy varnish issue.
Longer than 1 year storage... I recommend Avgas or leaded non ethanol race gas with a little Stabil and 8 ounces of Marvels per tank. This will give you 2-3 years of good gas. Ive tried it personally.
Liberty Gas lies! Ive tested 3 stations here in VA and all had ethanol for at least the first 3-6 gallons. Use a test tube with water in half of it. Shake. If it emulsifies then it has ethanol.
PURE Gas is 100% ethanol-free. Yay!
Cans of VP Racing "Octanium" have real T-lead if you need an octane boost. I used it in my drag car Charger with 12 to 1 compression and street gas 93. T-lead preserves gas as well. You can also get 5 gallon cans of 110 lead race fuel like Sunoco and add 1 gallon per tank for 1959-70 Caddies with 10-to-1 compression. Works like an Irish charm!
After 25 years of doing this finicky routine, Ive never had a tank of gas go stale.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on December 08, 2024, 11:16:36 AMGuess its a good question for those following this thread. How are the non ethanol pumps labeled in your state? Just simply 'doesn't contain ethanol'? That would be interesting if that was also the states where they don't require to label the pumps that do contain it. In MN they have to label ethanol as such and its worded as 'contains up to %' which implies it may not contain any which is curious. I wonder if that was written that way in case there was a shortage of ethanol? Any other states that label it also have that up to in their labels?
Well, from memory, the regular fuel nozzles here I think are usually either red or black, (I'll need to double check that to be sure the next time I fill up), the diesel ones are definitely green, and the ethanol-free ones are definitely blue.
As for the labeling, they usually just say that the fuel contains up to 10% ethanol, and something about being oxygenated for the winter, or maybe it's for the summer, (another thing I need to double-check when I gas up again, I don't pay much attention to them unless I'm having to stand there and hold the nozzle as it's filling and then I look over the pump. Until they started selling ethanol-free I just grabbed the regular nozzle and shoved it in the tank and didn't pay any attention to the signage).
That's another question, this oxygenated fuel, do they do that to the ethanol-free stuff too, or just the fuel with ethanol?
Rick
Quote from: jwwseville60 on December 09, 2024, 11:39:33 AMI use Stabil 360 and Marvels oil in my tanks for the winter, and half the suggested amount of Stabil for the rest of the year just to preserve gas better. Always fill up at a high volume gas station for fresh gas.
Marvels will help with separation, and if the gas goes a little stale it can help a lot with the gummy varnish issue.
Longer than 1 year storage... I recommend Avgas or leaded non ethanol race gas with a little Stabil and 8 ounces of Marvels per tank. This will give you 2-3 years of good gas. Ive tried it personally.
Liberty Gas lies! Ive tested 3 stations here in VA and all had ethanol for at least the first 3-6 gallons. Use a test tube with water in half of it. Shake. If it emulsifies then it has ethanol.
PURE Gas is 100% ethanol-free. Yay!
Cans of VP Racing "Octanium" have real T-lead if you need an octane boost. I used it in my drag car Charger with 12 to 1 compression and street gas 93. T-lead preserves gas as well. You can also get 5 gallon cans of 110 lead race fuel like Sunoco and add 1 gallon per tank for 1959-70 Caddies with 10-to-1 compression. Works like an Irish charm!
After 25 years of doing this finicky routine, Ive never had a tank of gas go stale.
How much of the Marvel's do you add when you use it? Is it at the same ratio as the Stabil?
Rick
Another catch to non ethanol is since it doesn't contain any alcohol if you do manage to get water in it somehow you generally have to add alcohol to get it out. Do people remember the product 'heet'? Before we had ethanol every place that sold fuel or automotive related stuff would have giant displays of that stuff especially in the winter. Its still around but you kinda have to look for it and as far as water is concerned its basically the same as ethanol. When added to the fuel it absorbs the water so it won't freeze and can then hopefully be carried through the system and burnt water and all.
I had forgot about this till I was just following up on another forum and thread about issues I was having with a small engine early this year. Thinking it ended up being bad non ethanol gas. Since it was a mild winter I didn't end up burning much for snow removal so some of it was still around when some of the summer engines came out and also had issues. I actually ended up buying some HEET and running the stuff through what amounts to and old flathead tractor engine that doesn't really seem to care what you feed it, its like 5:1 compression when it was new.
In my case I think I got the water from the gas station, just low volume through the winter and maybe not as busy in the summer as maybe typical? I dunno. I have also seen signs of condensation in the tanks on the equipment especially if it sits in a place that has large temp swings.
Only ethanol fuel available here in Great Britain, a choice of 5% or 10% ethanol. Shell supreme 99 octane contains "up to 5%" and had no ethanol until a year or two back.
Very interesting to hear Great Britain has 5 and or 10%. Do you know why or where it comes from? And by why I mean do they say if its for emissions or to supplement or diversify the supply? I guess I don't have any idea where most of the petrol comes from there. I assume much if it is imported? And is it imported as crude or a finished or closer to finished product? I also assume that its like the USA and the ethanol is blended at the distribution centers before it heads out to the petrol stations?
It almost sounds like they are adding the ethanol to take care of the problem of water in the distribution chain as a preemptive measure.
So if I'm running ethanol-free fuel and I manage to get some water in it from the station, or less likely from condensation, my options are to either add alcohol to it, or try to drain it out somehow.
Adding alcohol sounds like it negates any advantages of using ethanol-free fuel in the first place doesn't it?
Here's a question. If there's say a pint, or even a quart of water in the fuel, (supposing it can be determined exactly how much is in the tank), how much alcohol does it take to absorb or eliminate the water? Does it go on a one to one ratio, or more alcohol, or less alcohol? What is the percentage, assuming you go this route instead of trying to drain it out?
Rick
Quote from: TJ Hopland on December 12, 2024, 05:51:36 PMVery interesting to hear Great Britain has 5 and or 10%. Do you know why or where it comes from? And by why I mean do they say if its for emissions or to supplement or diversify the supply? I guess I don't have any idea where most of the petrol comes from there. I assume much if it is imported? And is it imported as crude or a finished or closer to finished product? I also assume that its like the USA and the ethanol is blended at the distribution centers before it heads out to the petrol stations?
It's because of green policies our governments of both colours have been pursuing, they plant to legislate all internal combustion vehicle production by 2030. It's a crazy idea that is already unravelling.
Our last refinery has just shut or due to shut very soon. No future permits for oil and gas exploration in our North sea are being issued.
I don't know where the ethanol blending takes place.
The future here is grim.
I don't think intentional moisture absorption is even a slight factor in the decision process, its just a side effect that sometimes works out. Note that when the alcohol absorbs the water is when more interesting corrosion things start really happening so this is why we say as long as you are burning it fairly quickly its fine as far as the equipment is concerned. If its being burned and churned around there isn't really time to absorb that much moisture and there isn't time for it to really get started on what ever chemical processes are. Let it sit... well then stuff happens.
Early on when they started doing the blends there were tons of issues with moisture. There were issues like they had only just started cracking down on leaky storage tanks so there were issues with ground water getting into the tanks at the gas stations. There were also issues like apparently the transport tankers were washed out with water at the end of the day. Things like that lead to much higher than expected moisture and ethanol content in the fuels by the time they got to the gas pumps. After a few years the industry developed better processes to greatly reduce the chances of those issues so by the time it got rolled out nationwide most areas really didn't have those problems.
Thanks TJ, I wasn't sure why it was added, but all the mentions of it attracting water got me to thinking about it.
Rick
So I just filled up the truck I had been running ethanol-free fuel in, but it was a 50/50 mix last time, so I wasn't sure if it would make much difference, but after checking the mileage, 333 miles this time, and 23.16 gallons, I got 14.4 miles per gallon, up from 13.69 on straight regular ethanal fuel. This time around, I'm starting with a higher mix of ethanol-free, so I'm hoping the next fill-up will show even better mileage.
I took a picture of the pump too, it's the latest newest version I guess, and it's showing the prices for everything in one place, which is really nice.
The ethanol-free is 89 octane, and premium is at 91 octane, and are priced according.
20241214_094717.jpg
Rick
I'm gonna guess that pump has 3 hoses? Or is diesel the only one that has its own? And for signage whats in the photo is it? Since one advertises non ethanol you just assume the others must have it but you don't know how much? Also interesting to see that its still cheaper than premium but still cost more than the other 89 option.
Ethanol is less energy dense than gas so it does take more of it to do the same amount of work. With only a 10% blend its a pretty minor difference but when you get to E85 its quite noticeable, you for sure have to fill up more often. I don't remember the number but say its 20% less dense so you need 20% more. I'm not sure if its the same in every state that has E85 but in mine somehow the price at the pump just happens to be that exact 20% less than regular gas so the cost per mile is the same you just have to fill up more often.
And for the reason they put it in the gas its all in theory related to the environment. I don't think anyone argues that if you just choose to look at a fairly narrow section of the WHOLE chain that there are not environmental benefits. You can look at just production and say ya or just the tailpipe emissions and say ya but where things come into question is if you look at the entire process is there a net gain for everyone? Are we consuming more resources to produce the stuff than we are saving in the end? And its such a long chain with so many involved its really hard to tell.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on December 14, 2024, 01:01:21 PMI'm gonna guess that pump has 3 hoses? Or is diesel the only one that has its own? And for signage whats in the photo is it? Since one advertises non ethanol you just assume the others must have it but you don't know how much? Also interesting to see that its still cheaper than premium but still cost more than the other 89 option.
Ethanol is less energy dense than gas so it does take more of it to do the same amount of work. With only a 10% blend its a pretty minor difference but when you get to E85 its quite noticeable, you for sure have to fill up more often. I don't remember the number but say its 20% less dense so you need 20% more. I'm not sure if its the same in every state that has E85 but in mine somehow the price at the pump just happens to be that exact 20% less than regular gas so the cost per mile is the same you just have to fill up more often.
And for the reason they put it in the gas its all in theory related to the environment. I don't think anyone argues that if you just choose to look at a fairly narrow section of the WHOLE chain that there are not environmental benefits. You can look at just production and say ya or just the tailpipe emissions and say ya but where things come into question is if you look at the entire process is there a net gain for everyone? Are we consuming more resources to produce the stuff than we are saving in the end? And its such a long chain with so many involved its really hard to tell.
Yes, 3 hoses, far left is the green diesel nozzle, right next to it is the ethanol-free blue nozzle, and on the far right is the black ethanol fuels nozzle. I mainly wanted to get the prices in the picture with the octane ratings. Didn't think about getting the nozzles in the shot.
Rick
That's the same layout I see a lot in my area with the 3 ethanol blends on the same hose. E85, diesel, and non ethanol always have their own hoses. Sometimes I think there is a hose for every option but it seems more common to have the 3 share one. My guess is its lower initial cost and lower maintenance costs.
That's true, the only mixing of the various blends is among those using ethanol, and it's just the length of the hose, so you don't get much of something else.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on December 14, 2024, 01:31:32 PMThat's the same layout I see a lot in my area with the 3 ethanol blends on the same hose. E85, diesel, and non ethanol always have their own hoses. Sometimes I think there is a hose for every option but it seems more common to have the 3 share one. My guess is its lower initial cost and lower maintenance costs.
Speaking of single hose mixing....
When I worked at a Sunoco station many years ago, you could select your octane. I would notice the occasional performance car pull up next to the pump then drive away. A bit later he would came back and do the same thing. Eventually he would stop at the pump.
One particular evening one of the regular customers driving a Chevelle did this. Ours was a full serve station so I inquired about his behavior that day. He told me he was waiting for the previous customer to have filled using the highest octane as he didn't want to pay for all the lower octane fuel left in the hose. This was about the time gas went from 50 cents to over a dollar. I explained to him that the hose going to the nozzle was actually two hoses with an outer wrap so the mixing occurred right at the nozzle. 😁
I educated a couple of others that summer.
Quote from: LaSalle5019 on December 15, 2024, 08:17:05 AMSpeaking of single hose mixing....
When I worked at a Sunoco station many years ago, you could select your octane. I would notice the occasional performance car pull up next to the pump then drive away. A bit later he would came back and do the same thing. Eventually he would stop at the pump.
One particular evening one of the regular customers driving a Chevelle did this. Ours was a full serve station so I inquired about his behavior that day. He told me he was waiting for the previous customer to have filled using the highest octane as he didn't want to pay for all the lower octane fuel left in the hose. This was about the time gas went from 50 cents to over a dollar. I explained to him that the hose going to the nozzle was actually two hoses with an outer wrap so the mixing occurred right at the nozzle. 😁
I educated a couple of others that summer.
This reminds me of when I was a kid and my dad needed to fill up the car. He would cruise the main boulevard looking for the cheapest price, probably burning more than he saved.
Rick
Did you ever ask was cruisin looking for cheap gas also how he found mom? Or all the family cars? Maybe it was worth it in the long run?
Quote from: TJ Hopland on December 19, 2024, 06:07:20 PMDid you ever ask was cruisin looking for cheap gas also how he found mom? Or all the family cars? Maybe it was worth it in the long run?
Hahaha, no, I never gave it a thought, but it's possible I guess, lol!