Got the transmission leak taken care of and almost ready to hit the road. Need to replace brake shoes and contemplating converting to disc brake. I've researched all there is to know. Looking for anyone with experience with lessons learned to share.
Thanks
Usually one of the big catches is you have to change the rims and stock hubcaps usually don't fit the newer wheels.
As TJ mentioned, unless you want to change your wheels and your hubcaps, switching to disc brakes won't work.
If your original wheels have the reversed center section, which was done to accommodate the deep dish hubcaps, they will not fit over the calipers.
The drum brake wheel "ring" that the tire actually mounts to is not shaped to fit over a caliper. When they eventually switched to discs, they redesigned the wheel "ring" to clear the calipers, and the center hub was flipped back around, and a more narrow hubcap was used with these wheels.
I wanted to go with discs on my 56 because I'm swapping the engine to a 472, but I want it to look completely stock on the outside. After discovering that my deep dish hubcaps wouldn't fit a disc brake wheel, I decided to just upgrade the drum brakes instead.
I like the looks of the original caps too much. Even though I could have gone with a custom wheel, it just didn't look as good as the original to me.
Good luck with your car.
Rick
Thanks. Definitely not interested in changing out the rims. keeping it stock all the way. Will simply refresh the current brake system.
The right parts for the front disc can be done without changing wheels. The rears can almost be done. My only issue was I could barely run my fingers between the side of the tires and the fender skirt locks.
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Here is the info on the rear. Due to the clearance issue I am removing the rear discs and putting the drums back on. I am also not sure this company is still in business FYI.
Brake R1.jpgBrake r2.jpgBrake r3.jpgBrake r4.jpgBrake r5.jpgBrake r6.jpgBrake r7.jpgBrake r8.jpgBrake r9.jpgBrake r10.jpg
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By how much do the wheels clear your calipers?
That's interesting. What did the calipers come off of if I may ask, and are the rotors from an existing vehicle, or were they made specifically for this, and if so, are they Chinese? The reason I ask is what do you do if you should need a replacement years down the road?
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on December 14, 2024, 12:47:27 PMBy how much do the wheels clear your calipers?
That's interesting. What did the calipers come off of if I may ask, and are the rotors from an existing vehicle, or were they made specifically for this, and if so, are they Chinese? The reason I ask is what do you do if you should need a replacement years down the road?
Rick
I asked the same question. And I never got a real good answer. Makes sense. If I was trying to make money off of selling a kit I would not tell people what is in the kit. The front rotors had stampings on the side. But I beleive the rear rotors were turned down from something else.
That was my question too... And would agree from the photos they look like they have some custom work to make em fit. An issue with cars like the Cadillacs was the 5 on 5 bolt pattern. Everything that used that was bigger and heavier so used bigger rotors to handle the weight which then didn't leave room in drum rims. The smaller like 4.75 and 4.5's fit smaller cars so there were smaller rotors that could maybe fit the drum wheels. You do then have to question is going with smaller rotors a good idea from a performance standpoint?
When I was still looking at discs for the 56, I was trying rotors off of my 72 Eldorado parts car because they are an inch smaller in diameter than the rotors off of a rear-drive car or truck. Still couldn't get the stock wheel to clear the calipers even using the Eldo rotors, and the offset was all wrong too.
I converted a 64 Chevelle years ago using the hubs from one of my El Camino parts cars. I cut off the braking surface so I could use just the hubs because they fit perfectly, then using rotors from a 2000 Firebird and longer studs, I made my own caliper brackets and used the Firebird calipers. I already had Cragar wheels so clearance wasn't an issue.
I did all that after I had tried using a kit from somewhere else and it put my wheels out so far that they would hit the fenders in a turn.
That's another thing to consider when swapping hubs/rotors.
Rick
I think I remember that there was a vintage of Sprinter vans that had a 5 on 5 and were a bit smaller diameter than what you usually saw with that pattern. I think the catch was the bearing setup wasn't quite right and they were thicker so the common conversion calipers didn't fit them either.
Looking at the photos of the front setup again the calipers look like what would have been used on something like a GM truck in the 90's as far as the sliders and such but the top where rim clearance is a concern looks odd to me but it could be that I just never really looked at that are when working on them? Or that is a special one that is either for an odd application or have been customized for this application?
The rotors don't look like they have been messed with much or at all diameter wise. You can see the internal cooling fins are still rough cast and recessed a bit. IF they had machined down the whole diameter you would expect those to be flush and machined looking. It does look like there has been a fair amount of work out at the flange area and possibly around the snout. Who knows maybe also internal tweaks to take different bearing races?
One nice thing is that sort of machining doesn't need to be done on a special brake lathe, you only need that for the actual braking surface. But a possible problem other than work holding to do that work on a regular lathe is cast iron is kinda hard on the equipment so some guys won't want to expose their machines to the stuff. The tooling isn't an issue since thats a consumable anyway its the shavings that are more fine and abrasive than most other materials that can get into places and cause accelerated wear and tear.
I think the fronts are all off the shelf. I think it was just the rears that were turned.
I am 83 years old. I have been driving and collecting mostly big antique and classic cars since I was 22 years old. I currently have a '58 Cad, a '47, and a 3 ton Pierce, all without disc brakes. If your brakes work properly, and are adjusted properly, they can be driven properly using common sense. Save your money.
While I don't have Tony's experience, I am inclined to agree with him. Most of our cars are also not daily drivers, so they are used infrequently. If I was using my near 3 ton Limo as a daily driver in a large downtown metropolis, I might consider a brake system conversion. My original brakes seem reasonable for the car. Clay/Lexi
If you need more braking performance really depends on where and when you are driving your car. I have spent time in areas where you could just about survive with no brakes at all and other places where brakes wear faster than the tires.
Some places there are some pretty poorly designed roads made worse by bad traffic control methods and then you double down on all that with bad drivers in cars that can out stop you under all conditions. If your in an area with less bad roads and fewer people things could be a lot different.
Yes, hence my comments about daily driving in a busy metropolis. More demanding on your vehicle's braking system. I would not fault someone for also installing a dual master cylinder in place of a single reservoir. Safer, with peace of mind. Clay/Lexi
The original brakes, set up as per the manual are more than capable of doing the job.
Phil
I personally am all for upgrading brakes, as the driving conditions back in the day are nothing like they are now. As a driver of drum-braked cars over the years, leave enough room in front to comfortably, will only allow a couple of small cars to slip in to fill the void.
New drivers of modern cars have no idea of what it takes to drive a Drum-braked car. Then they complain if hit up the backside by the older vehicle.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 on December 15, 2024, 11:50:44 PMThe original brakes, set up as per the manual are more than capable of doing the job.
Phil
This is true if people still drove like they did when these cars were new, but unfortunately they don't, and most seem like they just got their license last week.
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on December 16, 2024, 12:49:41 AMI personally am all for upgrading brakes, as the driving conditions back in the day are nothing like they are now. As a driver of drum-braked cars over the years, leave enough room in front to comfortably, will only allow a couple of small cars to slip in to fill the void.
New drivers of modern cars have no idea of what it takes to drive a Drum-braked car. Then they complain if hit up the backside by the older vehicle.
Bruce. >:D
This is exactly why I wanted to upgrade my brakes to disc, but I settled for just improving the existing drum brakes as much as possible.
If driver's education was still taught and required to receive a license, the roads would be much safer in my opinion.
Since educating drivers seems to be too difficult, the automakers are attempting to educate their vehicles to keep the idiots from killing more people.
Rick
To be absolutely honest I have run my 54 CDV both with and without the power brake booster (when I had it rebuilt), both ways it was more than capable of stopping sharply. I've never experienced brake fade with it either - that said I've not driven it for prolonged periods in hilly or mountainous areas. I drove it in and around London mostly, the traffic there is not good. I've never felt the need to upgrade to discs.
I'm not saying anyone in this thread is guilty of this, but I have noticed that often when someone hits a problem on their car they go for ripping everything out and putting in a modern replacement. Charging system plays up, put in an alternator, steering is worn, put radial tyres on, brakes not stopping the car, fit discs. These are the 3 main "fixes" I've seen over the years.
Each to their own and everyone is free to do what they want with their cars.
Phil
I can see both sides of this debate. Still, my experience is that the brake system deseigned for my car seems adequate based on the driving conditions it is exposed to. A little surprised to learn that driving your '54 without the booster worked fine. And yes, there are a lot more idiots on the road these days. Clay/Lexi
Constant traffic that ends up limiting the overall speeds isn't a problem. Its the areas were you can get some speed up then often due to bad design have to fairly suddenly stop then possibly repeat that process. Another problem area is the interchanges, the theoretically non stop variety where you can end up having to slow down from a high speed likely to make a tight curve then accelerate again then possibly repeat.... yes again a bad design but if thats how the roads are where you live you may not have a choice.
It was one of those interchanges that caused me to need a new pair of shorts in a drum car I owned at one time. The car was a base model but had already been upgraded to the 'performance' option that had larger and wider finned drums than it was stock. Still had everything else stock so it still could not get out of its own way and it wasn't like a bunch of weight was added with a big V8 sort of thing that often happens. When I got the car I had planned on discs but up to this point I had not really noticed any issues so was going to just keep the drums.
To get to where I was going I had to go though 2 consecutive interchanges. On the first one I didn't notice anything unusual and had to go from 70 down to like 25 to stay on the road then in theory back to 70 briefly (which this car would have needed rockets to do) then back to 25. It was part way through that 2nd interchange that I was no longer slowing down with moderate pedal pressure so I pressed harder which didn't result in slowing down much. So I tried harder and that was when the pedal went to the floor, I assume possibly boiled fluid in one or more wheel cylinder. It was just luck that by that time the traffic in front of me was accelerating so I was able to more or less coast to a less dangerous spot and use the hand brake to stop and figure out what the heck just happened.
Pedal came back a little bit after sitting on the side of the road for a couple hours but didn't fully come back till I bled the whole system. Not sure why that was, I would think since its sealed that once it cooled what ever was boiling would condense back to a liquid and back to normal but it didn't. Fluid level looked normal and there were no signs of leaks anywhere. Next day I had a kit on the way with front disc, dual mc, and a booster.
Now if you don't have any roads like that where you live or drive on them when there is no other traffic you could come into that at a much lower speed to start with and stay slow between the 2 interchanges so you would not have to again burn off a lot of speed but you can't safely do that when there is other traffic.
For me I want as few as possible reasons not to drive my classics. When I'm trying to decide what car to take I don't want to have to think about what route I may take and what the traffic may be like. I want to just grab any car and for the most part be able to handle any road or traffic that I may encounter in my area.
Quote from: Lexi on December 20, 2024, 04:10:02 PMI can see both sides of this debate. Still, my experience is that the brake system deseigned for my car seems adequate based on the driving conditions it is exposed to. A little surprised to learn that driving your '54 without the booster worked fine. And yes, there are a lot more idiots on the road these days. Clay/Lexi
It is a remote booster on my car, so it works fine with it removed (I had to make a brake pipe to connect up without it). A bit more pedal pressure on my part but stopped on a dime.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on December 20, 2024, 04:48:13 PMConstant traffic that ends up limiting the overall speeds isn't a problem. Its the areas were you can get some speed up then often due to bad design have to fairly suddenly stop then possibly repeat that process. Another problem area is the interchanges, the theoretically non stop variety where you can end up having to slow down from a high speed likely to make a tight curve then accelerate again then possibly repeat.... yes again a bad design but if thats how the roads are where you live you may not have a choice.
It was one of those interchanges that caused me to need a new pair of shorts in a drum car I owned at one time. The car was a base model but had already been upgraded to the 'performance' option that had larger and wider finned drums than it was stock. Still had everything else stock so it still could not get out of its own way and it wasn't like a bunch of weight was added with a big V8 sort of thing that often happens. When I got the car I had planned on discs but up to this point I had not really noticed any issues so was going to just keep the drums.
To get to where I was going I had to go though 2 consecutive interchanges. On the first one I didn't notice anything unusual and had to go from 70 down to like 25 to stay on the road then in theory back to 70 briefly (which this car would have needed rockets to do) then back to 25. It was part way through that 2nd interchange that I was no longer slowing down with moderate pedal pressure so I pressed harder which didn't result in slowing down much. So I tried harder and that was when the pedal went to the floor, I assume possibly boiled fluid in one or more wheel cylinder. It was just luck that by that time the traffic in front of me was accelerating so I was able to more or less coast to a less dangerous spot and use the hand brake to stop and figure out what the heck just happened.
Pedal came back a little bit after sitting on the side of the road for a couple hours but didn't fully come back till I bled the whole system. Not sure why that was, I would think since its sealed that once it cooled what ever was boiling would condense back to a liquid and back to normal but it didn't. Fluid level looked normal and there were no signs of leaks anywhere. Next day I had a kit on the way with front disc, dual mc, and a booster.
Now if you don't have any roads like that where you live or drive on them when there is no other traffic you could come into that at a much lower speed to start with and stay slow between the 2 interchanges so you would not have to again burn off a lot of speed but you can't safely do that when there is other traffic.
For me I want as few as possible reasons not to drive my classics. When I'm trying to decide what car to take I don't want to have to think about what route I may take and what the traffic may be like. I want to just grab any car and for the most part be able to handle any road or traffic that I may encounter in my area.
I've driven my car at high speed for long periods, I've driven it for long distances on roads with variable speed limits (our government loves doing that), speeding up and slowing down. I also drove a drum braked GMC suburban from my home, all the way across France and into Spain. This involved a lot of mountainous driving, no issues.
I hope I don't end up eating my words and having brake failure!
One of the jobs on my list is to re rubber my whole brake system.
Where did Cadillac mount the booster on the 54/55 models? I have dismantled my 55 parts car and I don't remember exactly. I think it sat just behind the grille, but not positive on that.
Rick
Quote from: PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 on December 21, 2024, 02:52:26 AMIt is a remote booster on my car, so it works fine with it removed (I had to make a brake pipe to connect up without it). A bit more pedal pressure on my part but stopped on a dime.
That is fascinating Phil. Clay/Lexi
When I had my '56 serviced at a transmission shop that specialized in hydramatics, the owner/mechanic took me and the car out for a test drive. As his shop is in the middle of an industrial area, with no highways nearby, he had to drive the car hard to get her up to speed to road test. Stop signs were everywhere, so there were repeated stops and heavy braking. Quite irratating and also indicative of the "Safety Simon" mentality of the do-gooders in the city planning department. Anyhow, it didn't take long for the brakes to over heat and brake fade to occur. I had to wait about 45 minutes for the drums to cool before I could drive home. The drums were so hot it felt like you could roast marshmallows over them. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on December 21, 2024, 09:43:34 AMWhen I had my '56 serviced at a transmission shop that specialized in hydramatics, the owner/mechanic took me and the car out for a test drive. As his shop is in the middle of an industrial area, with no highways nearby, he had to drive the car hard to get her up to speed to road test. Stop signs were everywhere, so there were repeated stops and heavy braking. Quite irratating and also indicative of the "Safety Simon" mentality of the do-gooders in the city planning department. Anyhow, it didn't take long for the brakes to over heat and brake fade to occur. I had to wait about 45 minutes for the drums to cool before I could drive home. The drums were so hot it felt like you could roast marshmallows over them. Clay/Lexi
No doubt the same would happen with my car Clay. I'm just glad I don't live in St. Louis Mo. every street there has a stop sign every 10 yards!
Quote from: Cadman-iac on December 21, 2024, 04:45:18 AMWhere did Cadillac mount the booster on the 54/55 models? I have dismantled my 55 parts car and I don't remember exactly. I think it sat just behind the grille, but not positive on that.
Rick
I'll take a photo tomorrow, it's on the left hand side, from memory attached to the frame on a bracket above the A arm.
Quote from: PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 on December 21, 2024, 01:23:21 PMI'll take a photo tomorrow, it's on the left hand side, from memory attached to the frame on a bracket above the A arm.
Oh yeah, it's more or less in the same location as on a 56, except sits a bit lower, and the master is under the floor.
Thanks for jogging my memory Phil. I'm not sure why I was thinking it was sitting behind the grille.
Rick
Was there a year where it was vertical?
Quote from: TJ Hopland on December 21, 2024, 03:15:31 PMWas there a year where it was vertical?
I don't believe so, but I'm no historian on what they've tried.
My experience is with the 50's through the 90's, anything newer I wasn't interested in, and anything older I just never had access to.
The 56 is the oddest one I've ever seen. The booster and master cylinder are both mounted about 6 inches above the left upper control arm and uses a pair of long rods and pivot setup to get from the pedal to the booster.
The edge of the master cylinder is just behind the core support.
I guess this was the first attempt to get the master cylinder out from underneath the floorboard.
In 57 it was moved to the firewall and there it stayed.
Rick
56 must be the one I was thinking of. I just remember linkages.
I don't have a picture of an original 56 booster and master unit, but I do have one of the Hydro-boost that I have been trying to fit into the the same location.
My 56 parts car still has the original unit in it, and if I get a chance in the future I'll take a picture of what it looks like so you can see it's what you were thinking of.
20200115_142848.jpg
Rick
Quote from: Roger Zimmermann on December 22, 2024, 02:37:41 AMYes: 1958.
I wasn't aware of that, you wouldn't have any pictures of one would you?
Rick
Sorry, Rick: no picture as I don't own a '58. But the drawing from the shop manual may help.
1958 brakes.jpg
Quote from: Roger Zimmermann on December 22, 2024, 12:04:33 PMSorry, Rick: no picture as I don't own a '58. But the drawing from the shop manual may help.
1958 brakes.jpg
And I thought the 56 setup was weird! I've never seen such a setup as this one before.
So does the master cylinder sit on the top and the booster rod pushes from underneath it?
When the master cylinder leaks on this system it's sure to ruin the booster.
I'll bet those are really hard to find anymore.
Thanks Roger.
Quote from: Cadman-iac on December 22, 2024, 01:11:16 PMWhen the master cylinder leaks on this system it's sure to ruin the booster.
I'll bet those are really hard to find anymore.
You are welcome Rick!
That's right, when the master cylinder is leaking, the fluid is going down to the power piston. However, this situation is not much better with the '56 system, if leaking the fluid is getting also on the power piston...It will not get destroyed, unless you let is that way for a too long time and the cylinder is rusting. It's the same disease for both years!
Is the booster body cast or stamped? I suppose it doesn't matter since brake fluid will eat either one.