I need to replace my OEM steel wheels and lug nuts, as the original are rusted and have been on and off the car so many times over the life of the vehicle that the bolt holes and lug nuts themselves are worn out. Any idea where to get replacements that match the originals? They obviously need to fit correctly (and safely), and the OEM hub caps need to mount securely.
Wondering if you couldn't just have the holes welded and then machined to mate the surface of the lugnut? It would be a lot cheaper than an OEM set of wheels.
Hopefully someone knows for sure but I think 68 may be the first year where the wheel more or less lasted till the end of the RWD cars? Does the hubcap grab the very outer edge where the weights go? Or does it need a flat area further in?
I believe the hubcap grabs the very outer edge.
Again hopefully someone will know for sure but I think you may be able to use a wheel from most of the full size RWD cars through the end which was 96. There were a few oddballs in the late 70's that used the smaller pattern on the full size but I think most were the 5 on 5. The later you got the more chance of aluminum wheels as an option. I'm thinking the 1/2 ton 2wd trucks would also be an option and even in the end which was around 2000 steel was still pretty common. Station wagons were usually steel wheels till the round body in 91,
If memory serves, your hubcaps grip the very outer lip of the wheels, which Cadillac extended farther than the rest of the GM lines, I'm guessing to keep people from using Cadillac hubcaps on other vehicles and thus being a theft deterrent.
The half-ton truck wheels will fit perfectly over your discs and drums, but those do not have the extended lip for the hubcaps.
I've used Cadillac wheels on my trucks without issue, but using truck wheels on your Cadillac will result in the hubcaps not fitting properly if at all.
If you manage to get one to fit a truck wheel, if you corner hard and the wheel flexes, your caps will come off.
I'm not positive about when Cadillac stopped using the extended lips on their wheels, but I do know that it was used at least through 1979.
I had a 1988 Brougham years ago but I can't remember if it had the extended lip on the wheels. I think it did, but not sure.
Rick
Interesting that maybe that lip changed. I would not think it would have since that is always where the weights fit. I do have a mid 90's truck but its 16" so I would not be able to test fit a Cad hubcap but I can try and remember to try and measure it.
I'm not positive but I believe that when GM released the new C/K body trucks in 88 they changed the wheel bolt pattern to metric, making those wheels unusable on anything using a 5-on-5 pattern. They are just close enough that they will fit over the studs but the holes are not centered around the studs, so when the nuts are tightened they are only applying force around part of the wheels edge around the studs.
I know that the 6 lug wheels on the 4x4s were changed to metric so they won't fit earlier models.
The wheel weights that Cadillac used, (I think they are called "Cax" or something similar), were designed to accommodate the way Cadillac hubcaps attach, (which I also believe are the only ones that used this design). Chevrolet hubcaps gripped the wheel on the inside of the lip just under where the tire bead sits, and the weights sit just outside of the hubcap's outer edge. That's why these weights don't work on the Cadillac wheels. I've seen a few hubcaps that someone had modified to clear this type of weight by cutting the "fingers" off of the cap where the weight is so that they could get the cap to stay on.
This method works until the wheels are re-balanced and the weights are changed, then the cap would either have to be modified again eventually ruining the cap, and if too many of the fingers are removed the caps are more likely to come off anyway from the lack of grip.
I've also seen hubcaps bent by tire jockeys trying to get one to fit over standard wheel weights.
The difference between the Cadillac wheel lip and the others is only something like an 1/8" or so but it's important if you want to use the original hubcaps.
If I can remember to check tomorrow, I'll measure both types of wheels for the lip dimensions and report it here.
Rick
There were a few years in the 60's where Lincoln also used the CAX weights and had rim lips just as Cadillac did. What the bolt pattern was, I don't remember. Because Lincoln also started using disc brakes in the later 60's models, they may be interchangeable without worrying if you will tear the calipers apart. I haven't done any Lincoln work for years to really remember details.
Thanks for that John, I wasn't aware any other manufacturer used that type of wheel/ hubcap arrangement. I've never messed with any old Lincolns, and probably won't ever get the chance.
So here's the difference between a truck wheel and the Cadillac wheel.
The lip on the Cadillac measured from the face of the wheel outward is right at 1/2".
The truck wheel lip measures 3/8".
BUT, because they used thicker steel on the truck wheels, when viewed from the front, (as if looking at the tire tread), both appear to be the same width. And there may be some slight differences in manufacturing tolerances, so your best method for checking if it's usable for your Cadillac is to measure the outside face of the wheel, looking at it from the lug nut side.
Here's a few pictures for reference.
This is a 63 Cadillac wheel.
Screenshot_20241221-120442_Gallery.jpg
This is a mid 70's truck wheel.
Screenshot_20241221-120455_Gallery.jpg
This is looking at the face of each with the truck wheel on the left.
Screenshot_20241221-120511_Gallery.jpg
And this is looking at the lips from where the tire sits. The Cadillac wheel is on the left here.
Screenshot_20241221-120533_Gallery.jpg
Rick
I don't think the 2wd 1/2 ton trucks changed till they ditched the 5 lug and old school spindle setup around 2000 in favor of what was more or less the same hub assembly used on the 4x4's just in some cases didn't have the hole for a CV and in other cases had a dummy shaft so it was literally the same hub.
If the extra depth is a thing I wonder if that is maybe to let the flange of the hubcap to rest on the rim rather than having the 'fingers' be what bottoms out?
I looked at what I have accessible at the moment and I don't seem to have anything that would help with this discussion. I know I have several wheels from the 80's and 90's just can't easily get to any of them at the moment.
Not sure of the exact reason why they used the very outer lip, other than speculation that it was a dual purpose, one being to hide as much of the wheel as possible behind the hubcaps, and two being a theft deterrent because the caps either won't fit or won't stay on any wheels with a narrower lip.
If someone stole a Cadillac hubcap and tried to use it on a Chevrolet for example, if it went on at all it wouldn't take much for it to fall off.
Only someone with another Cadillac would benefit from stealing the hubcaps from a Cadillac, (or the thief that sells them).
I don't remember the specifics on what GM did to the truck wheels from 88 and up, other than that the ones that came off of one didn't fit anything earlier.
Unfortunately I don't remember what year of truck we tried using the wheels from, it may very well be one from after 2000, but I haven't parted out any of the 88 and up body styles. My neighbor was trying to get some to fit on his older truck and it wouldn't work, and I didn't ask him what year they were from.
They were also aluminum wheels, which is why he wanted them.
Rick
Thanks guys!
I was just watching a video from I think hes called something like rare classics and history on a 69 Deville and he mentioned a Cadillac exclusive of the rims having a bead on both sides. Seems like I heard that once before, perhaps in another one of his videos. He had a picture but I could not tell what was different. Isn't the bead the vertical surface on both the tire and rim? Is there a horizontal component to it too? Is the bead just a universal term for the whole tire to rim interface? And how could other makes only have one?
Anyone know what he is talking about? He does kinda seem to reach for and stretch some information a bit but it seems like overall what he talks about is based on some truth so I doubt its just something kinda made up.
The bead you are referring to is the pressed ridge just inwards from the outside of the rim that stops the tyre from falling inwards as air pressure goes down in a tyre deflation.
This is called the safety bead, and initially was only on the outside of the rims, but soon was pressed into the inside side of the rim.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: chrisbutnutI need to replace my OEM steel wheels and lug nuts, as the original are rusted and have been on and off the car so many times over the life of the vehicle that the bolt holes and lug nuts themselves are worn out. Any idea where to get replacements that match the originals? They obviously need to fit correctly (and safely), and the OEM hub caps need to mount securely.
I had that problem on my first car to pass 100,000 miles.
My tire store showed the wheel stud holes were all reamed
out, replacements needed.
I was quite unhappy about this, as there was otherwise
nothing wrong with my rims. I soon concluded the
damage occured with the so called mechanics using an
air wrench to install them, with torque set way too
high. So for the future I found an extra rim (common
with snow tires in those days) and always took pairs
of rims to the store for new tires to be mounted. I
took them home and carefully put them on an axle by
hand. This was eventually repeated to get a complete
new set. The damage was eliminated, I never need to
replace rims even at 300,000 miles. Sometimes at 4
decades or so I will have somewhat rusty rims sand
blasted and repainted.
No tire store is allowed to touch my cars. Bruce Roe
Quote from: bcroe on December 24, 2024, 06:59:00 PMI had that problem on my first car to pass 100,000 miles.
My tire store showed the wheel stud holes were all reamed
out, replacements needed.
I was quite unhappy about this, as there was otherwise
nothing wrong with my rims. I soon concluded the
damage occured with the so called mechanics using an
air wrench to install them, with torque set way too
high. So for the future I found an extra rim (common
with snow tires in those days) and always took pairs
of rims to the store for new tires to be mounted. I
took them home and carefully put them on an axle by
hand. This was eventually repeated to get a complete
new set. The damage was eliminated, I never need to
replace rims even at 300,000 miles. Sometimes at 4
decades or so I will have somewhat rusty rims sand
blasted and repainted.
No tire store is allowed to touch my cars. Bruce Roe
I'd love to find replacement rims that will work, however I'm concerned that I'm not going to be able to find anything that will work with the stock OEM hubcaps. Not sure yet what the solution it. I sure don't want the hubcaps flying off when I'm driving the car. It's hard enough to find parts for the 68s. :)
Chris,
Where are you located?
If I remember correctly, the 68 models were the first to have disc brakes, but I'm not sure if that was standard equipment for all or an option like it was for Chevrolet.
I know that the 69 model it was standard for all.
Along that line of thought, if it was an option, I'm wondering if those that still had drum brakes received the old-style drum wheels, or if all cars got the new wheels.
So I need to ask, does your car have drum or disc brakes?
If it has drums, you have a much larger range of years to get your wheels from.
Disc brake wheels will fit over drum brakes without a problem, however, drum brake wheels will not fit over disc brakes.
I have a few sets, but I'm not sure of their condition. I picked through my collection to find 2 sets for my car trailer when the chrome wheels that were on it began to peel. One set on the ground and the other as spares. I went with the Cadillac wheels because I had 2 matching sets of hubcaps and they looked better than the chrome wheels did.
Good luck with finding a set, I hope this helps you narrow down your search some.
Rick
Quote from: bcroe on December 24, 2024, 06:59:00 PMNo tire store is allowed to touch my cars. Bruce Roe
Amen. I will bring my wheels in, off car, for a tire change, balance, but they don't touch them on the car.
Don't trust them. Clay/Lexi
On the safety rim thing I'm amazed at how much talk and photos there are on the subject but so far all the pics look the same to me. What I'm surmising is we are talking about making sure there is a decent sized horizontal area directly below the tires bead? Earlier designs there could have been a gap there so totally dependent on air pressure to keep the vertical surfaces together?
I would imagine this change also helped or was helped with disc brakes? Still need the drop center to make it reasonable to mount them but that could be in the center where it was out of the way of a caliper?
If you want to know if your wheels have that safety ridge or bead, (or whatever the technical name is), just run your fingers over the inner and outer lips of the wheel and if it's got them you'll feel them as a small indentation or "groove" about an inch inside the edges. If the tire is removed, then it'll be a bump an inch from each edge on the tire's side of the wheel.
It's meant to give the tire bead a little bit of resistance to coming back off if you lose pressure.
If you've ever messed with a 16.5" truck wheel, those are a perfect example of a wheel without the safety ridges. If you are running these wheels and have a nail or lose pressure for whatever reason, it's almost guaranteed that the tire beads will come away from the wheel edges, and most likely come right off the wheel. The only advantage to these is that it's super easy to get a new tire on it, you don't really need a tire machine to do it.
On other "half sized" wheels, like the 19.5, and the 22.5's, I don't know if those were made with the safety beads or not. I have a couple sets of the 19.5's, but haven't ever used them before, so I never paid attention to what they look like.
I can take a picture of what Bruce has mentioned a little later today when I get home.
Rick
Was that maybe a thing on those half sizes because they tended to be stiffer heavy duty tires to begin with so they figured you would need every advantage to be able to mount them? I have a trailer with 14.5's and if they loose pressure they are darn near impossible to get seated again. The sidewalls are so stiff usual things like a winch strap don't work. Ya need a bead blaster or some boom boom.
I questioned the dealer when buying our initial set of vehicles with 16.5" tyres, and was told that these sizes were made for heavy vehicles and the extra .5" made sure that people couldn't use these tyres on "normal" passenger vehicles.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on December 25, 2024, 06:24:36 PMI questioned the dealer when buying our initial set of vehicles with 16.5" tyres, and was told that these sizes were made for heavy vehicles and the extra .5" made sure that people couldn't use these tyres on "normal" passenger vehicles.
Bruce. >:D
I believe that to be true too, I've heard that same thing from others through the years.
The wheels are definitely heavier, and I was wrong about them not having the safety ridges, at least on some anyway.
I have probably 8 of them left, but only half have the ridges, the other half are smooth.
This is a 16.5 without the ridges.
Screenshot_20241225-201221_Gallery.jpg
TJ,
When working with an old tire that's stiff, the "boom boom" is almost the only thing that will get one to seat the beads.
I'm guessing that you are referring to starting fluid or something else flammable sprayed into the tire and lit.
The 17.5, and 19.5 wheels I have do not have the ridges either.
I have a few mid 60's Cadillac wheels that have just a ridge on the outside, nothing on the inside. Not sure why they did just the one.
Here's a picture of it. I used the background to highlight the contour of the wheel, but the light was not optimal.
Screenshot_20241225-202621_Gallery.jpg
This is a 70's Cadillac wheel. I'm pointing out the ridges.
Screenshot_20241225-202905_Gallery.jpg
Rick
Quote from: Cadman-iac on December 25, 2024, 12:43:29 AMChris,
Where are you located?
If I remember correctly, the 68 models were the first to have disc brakes, but I'm not sure if that was standard equipment for all or an option like it was for Chevrolet.
I know that the 69 model it was standard for all.
Along that line of thought, if it was an option, I'm wondering if those that still had drum brakes received the old-style drum wheels, or if all cars got the new wheels.
So I need to ask, does your car have drum or disc brakes?
If it has drums, you have a much larger range of years to get your wheels from.
Disc brake wheels will fit over drum brakes without a problem, however, drum brake wheels will not fit over disc brakes.
I have a few sets, but I'm not sure of their condition. I picked through my collection to find 2 sets for my car trailer when the chrome wheels that were on it began to peel. One set on the ground and the other as spares. I went with the Cadillac wheels because I had 2 matching sets of hubcaps and they looked better than the chrome wheels did.
Good luck with finding a set, I hope this helps you narrow down your search some.
Rick
I'm in Portland, Oregon. My car has discs on the front, and drums on the back.
Quote from: Cadman-iac on December 25, 2024, 10:30:42 PMI believe that to be true too, I've heard that same thing from others through the years.
I have a few mid 60's Cadillac wheels that have just a ridge on the outside, nothing on the inside. Not sure why they did just the one. Rick
Rick,
The Factory only did what they had to do by law. The initial Regulations only called for the outer bead, then a few years later, both inside and outside ones were mandated. They are not going to spend money when they don't have to.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: chrisbutnut on December 25, 2024, 10:43:24 PMI'm in Portland, Oregon. My car has discs on the front, and drums on the back.
You'll have to narrow down your search some then. If you were closer you could get some from me, but the freight would be outrageous.
I would think that there's a salvage yard near you that would have some yet.
It would be nice if they would spin them to check the runout on them before you buy them.
I don't have any way to spin one for runout except by mounting it on the rear axle and putting the vehicle in gear. I do have a tire machine which is handy.
I wish you the best in finding a set.
Rick
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on December 26, 2024, 12:09:19 AMRick,
The Factory only did what they had to do by law. The initial Regulations only called for the outer bead, then a few years later, both inside and outside ones were mandated. They are not going to spend money when they don't have to.
Bruce. >:D
Good point!!
Finally we got some good pics and I can see what this safety thing is all about... cool...
So now we know that aspect isn't a direct factor for fit on the car or hubcap but could be an indirect issue since it seemed to be getting popular when discs got popular so would have forced the makers to do some design changes and if you are being forced to a new design why not change more stuff while you are at it.
I think we are pretty sure fitting on the car isn't going to be an issue for 70's-90's wheels so its just the hubcap. Got a spare hubcap? Do we know if there are any differences in those bead grip style caps? IF I have say a 78 Eldo cap and a 92 pickup would a test fit there say that his 68 should also fit 92 pickup wheels? 78 Eldo I think is as late as they used that design? Or if you got any of the 'tin' caps in the 70's did you still get that design? ANd it was when the wire caps that started gripping further in?
I do have a 78 Eldo cap laying around but don't know for sure that I can easily lay my hands on a 92 pickup so at least for me its just an example of how we could maybe figure this out.
TJ,
Here's a 72 Eldorado wheel. It doesn't have the safety ridges on it.
I'm not sure if it's a 72 wheel or not, but it came with the car.
Screenshot_20241226-184630_Gallery.jpg
I don't believe Chevrolet ever used wheels with the wider outer lip for the edge-grip hubcaps. The trucks rarely got a full size hubcap anyway, and from what I remember of the ones I've had before, they gripped the wheel under the tire bead area leaving a bit of the wheel's outer edge visible.
The Cadillac caps covered everything except for the very edge of the lip, so you really couldn't see the wheel.
I'll try to remember to get a picture of one of mine to show what I mean.
Rick
In that Eldo wheel photo it kinda looks like there is a ridge on the right side in the photo. Or is that just something I'm seeing in the photo that isn't there?
In the case of the trucks I'm thinking their style for several decades was some sort of center cap that just covered the nuts and if you got the extra fancy package I think they called it a beauty ring that just covered the bead area which would include the weights. The 70's ones I remember and the 90's I actually still have do cover pretty much right to the tire but grip further in where the typical caps grip.
I want to say there were periods where other brands and cars did that too, think of around 1970 Chev like a Cheville or Vette. The GM trucks just held onto that style for much longer. I have not looked but that may still be the style if you get the super rare steel wheel option.
Hmmm.... this now has me questioning my memory. This sure looks like its gripping the same as what we are talking about. IF that is the case that may be good news since those wheels are readily available new.
(https://assets.aaadirect.com/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJhc3NldHMuYWFhZGlyZWN0LmNvbSIsImtleSI6InByb2R1Y3QtaW1hZ2VzXC81ODk3NF8xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJmaXQiOiJjb250YWluIiwiYmFja2dyb3VuZCI6eyJyIjoyNTUsImciOjI1NSwiYiI6MjU1LCJhbHBoYSI6MX0sIndpZHRoIjoxMjAwLCJoZWlnaHQiOjgwMH19LCJmeHZlcnNpb24iOiIyMDIzMDUxMTEwNTczMiJ9)
Quote from: TJ Hopland on December 27, 2024, 09:18:07 AMIn that Eldo wheel photo it kinda looks like there is a ridge on the right side in the photo. Or is that just something I'm seeing in the photo that isn't there?
In the case of the trucks I'm thinking their style for several decades was some sort of center cap that just covered the nuts and if you got the extra fancy package I think they called it a beauty ring that just covered the bead area which would include the weights. The 70's ones I remember and the 90's I actually still have do cover pretty much right to the tire but grip further in where the typical caps grip.
I want to say there were periods where other brands and cars did that too, think of around 1970 Chev like a Cheville or Vette. The GM trucks just held onto that style for much longer. I have not looked but that may still be the style if you get the super rare steel wheel option.
I think you're seeing things that aren't there. I took a couple more pictures of it with better lighting and a piece of cardboard behind it so it shows up better after I made sure you actually weren't seeing something I missed.
20241227_083800.jpg
20241227_083803.jpg
20241227_083809.jpg
Rick
There is a boneyard here in the colorado front range that I frequent that has a number of late 60's to mid 70's Cadillacs. Lots of wheels still on these cars, grey and black.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on December 27, 2024, 09:25:07 AMHmmm.... this now has me questioning my memory. This sure looks like its gripping the same as what we are talking about. IF that is the case that may be good news since those wheels are readily available new.
(https://assets.aaadirect.com/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJhc3NldHMuYWFhZGlyZWN0LmNvbSIsImtleSI6InByb2R1Y3QtaW1hZ2VzXC81ODk3NF8xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJmaXQiOiJjb250YWluIiwiYmFja2dyb3VuZCI6eyJyIjoyNTUsImciOjI1NSwiYiI6MjU1LCJhbHBoYSI6MX0sIndpZHRoIjoxMjAwLCJoZWlnaHQiOjgwMH19LCJmeHZlcnNpb24iOiIyMDIzMDUxMTEwNTczMiJ9)
As for these, if you look closely at the trim ring, you can see the "fingers" are not near the outer edge but farther inboard of it.
Screenshot_20241227-090659_Gallery.jpg
These are the same wheels and rings that are on my wife's Corvette. I replaced all the wheels because they were out of round from many years of being put on old-style tire machines.
Here's a closeup of the old ones since I've still got them.
20241227_083340.jpg
20241227_083344.jpg
20241227_083352.jpg
As for the truck wheels and trim rings, here's what I've got on the half-ton Suburban.
Screenshot_20241227-093224_Gallery.jpg
This is an old one I've replaced but kept. Note where the fingers are.
Screenshot_20241227-093320_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20241227-093329_Gallery.jpg
Here's a shot of my small wheel collection. This is just what's loose, the rest are keeping vehicles out of the dirt.
Screenshot_20241227-093245_Gallery.jpg
On those closer eldo pics I can now see that its just a combination of that rust line and lighting that looked like a ridge.