In May it will be a year since this forum required all participants to be CLC members. The reasoning was this would encourage forum users to join the club.
So... the big question is did it work? Did it result in a membership boost, a temporary blip, or no difference?
Aside from membership, to me, there has been a good and a bad result.
The good result is it got rid of the scammers.
The bad result is I think it has reduced traffic on this forum. I have a prewar car and conversation about prewar cars has slowed to almost zero. Some of this is because the hobby in general has moved on from prewar cars.
Does anyone else notice less overall traffic on this forum?
I'm sure you are right that the traffic is down. The people that are new to Cadillacs and had not joined a club were more entertaining to read and correct. Maybe a few more cars were repaired and not junked. I always hoped so.
It seems only a few people are asking questions now ,and are the same ones ,over and over . often about very trivial points. I know I'm not digging into my library very much. The answers may be there,but are buried so far as to being lost. The quality of the answers is down to opinion instead of fact, too often.
I know when I look into websites on subjects I know nothing about, I won't join a Club to just get a quick idea . I move on to the next. Never to return.
I vote to opening it up again!
Warren
Quote from: Warren Rauch #4286 on April 15, 2025, 09:10:34 AMI vote to opening it up again!
Warren
And volunteering to be a Moderator?
I have also noticed that the traffic is way down.
I never understood why someone would want to participate in the forum, while at the same time be totally opposed to joining the club. Having said that, I would prefer opening up the forum since it was much more enjoyable and useful before the change.
It does seem like we lost all the 'just inherited grandpas car' sort of people as well as some regulars that were always ready to help. I'm not much of a pre war guy but did that slow down? Now that I think about it I guess I have not read many of those myself. I do recall that in the past I often followed some of those waiting for the issue to be resolved so I could ask some general questions about how things worked on those care or that era.
I have a want to buy ad up on the forum....looking for a 47 brake drum....
In just five days there have been over 300 views of that ad....but no responses...
I wonder how many of those 300 might have a drum but can't get to me because of not having a membership....??
Mike
Quote from: Mike Baillargeon #15848 on April 15, 2025, 12:23:37 PMI wonder how many of those 300 might have a drum but can't get to me because of not having a membership....??
Mike
No need for a CLC membership to obtain your age, phone number, how long you've lived at your current address and more if you are including your full name and state. The contact information matches your CLC Directory info.
The internet digs deep into our privacy.
But will a person go digging just to sell a brake drum? Laziness is overwhelming these days.
The mods already don't like me. Do you really think they would make me "one of them"?
But I think sometimes its not the decision of the Mods who becomes a Mod.
Quote from: Tom Boehm on April 14, 2025, 09:25:17 PMIn May it will be a year since this forum required all participants to be CLC members. The reasoning was this would encourage forum users to join the club.
So... the big question is did it work? Did it result in a membership boost, a temporary blip, or no difference?
Aside from membership, to me, there has been a good and a bad result.
The good result is it got rid of the scammers.
The bad result is I think it has reduced traffic on this forum. I have a prewar car and conversation about prewar cars has slowed to almost zero. Some of this is because the hobby in general has moved on from prewar cars.
Does anyone else notice less overall traffic on this forum?
Work for the Moderators has increased, but in the area of Membership Approvals.
Thus far, I would say that there has been about a 5% or more increase in new Members, but a huge number of Spammers attempting to join. I personally have been banning up to
These Spammers are mostly from Russia, Ukraine, Germany, India and also USA. One would never believe the Membership Numbers they come up with in an attempt to join.
From the 1st May, to the 23rd. February, I personally have banned 250 Spammers from joining, and banned another 3 today, whilst admitting 2 new Members. So, it is working.
Bruce. >:D
A few bad apples spoil things for the rest of us. It is a fact of life everywhere.
The scammers were stopped but it came at a very steep price.
Pick your evil: scammers or lower participation.
I was unsure about the change in forum rules. A year on I have got to say I prefer it. One of the major improvements for me is that it got rid of some of the belligerent types on here. The technical discussions seem better informed to me.
My only problem is with loading photos (nothing to do with the rule changes) - I have been at events and taken photos of some lovely cars but when I start a new topic and try to post the photos from my phone they always fail.
Phil
Phil, your phone takes pictures at its maximum setting by default. Usually in excess of 5MB. I don't know what the forum maximum is because I always resize any pictures before posting. That could be your issue. Check with one of the tech experts here.
The allowance for image size is 50 MB.
When downloading pictures to the Message Board, there is a guide under the box with a limit listed. As one posts more pictures, the information changes.
Bruce. >:D
The restriction is fine with me. In any organization, if non members are allowed to post, there seems to be a plethora of nonsense and not related matter posted on a regular basis. For a few dollars a year, very few, join or go away
It's basic economics that forum membership should decline when it comes at a cost or cost increase.
However, quantity is only one side of the equation; there's also a quality component that should be taken into consideration. Additionally, it helps reduce oversight efforts combating spam/malicious content and other hackery.
I'm somewhat sad about the change. There was a time when I was on here 2-3 times/day, now it's every 2-3 days.
The I just inherited grandpa's car posts were some of the best. Remember the wealth of knowledge that those posts brought ?? Well, except the What kind of oil do I use posts.
I don't know our demographics here, but I would guess that most of us are from a time before Facebook and the internet-- A time when everything wasn't out there, and being part of a club was a necessity. Now, just about everything is out there, some correct, some not, but the point is that it's out there.
Why would a 20 year old pay a membership to a group when he could get all the information for free??
I think the members only idea would have worked 5-10 years ago, but not now.
The forum is slowly dying, and I am very sorry to see it go. This group was invaluable when we brought our 55 back to life.
I think we are seeing mother nature at work here.
Most younger car enthusiasts are into electric vehicles and very, very fast high tech cars.
Mostly its people over 45 who are into vintage Caddies, but there are fewer on the horizon. The car culture we grew up with is changing. Dying, really...
Trade wars may mean less parts and a more expensive import car tax/ logistics. (Those pesky Swedish Caddies).
Parts are in short supply as are qualified mechanics and engine machine shops. When my friend retires I will have very few options for service/repairs in my area. Maybe none.
Im 63 with a painful back injury for life. Bad arthritis in most joints.
In the coming years I will be draining the gas on half my collection and they will be static displays only with 40 psi in the tires. If I make it to 83 I'll probably only have two drivers left if any.
I hope the forum survives and I think it will, but with fewer of us as we age. The hard core will remain.
Slide over a seat, John. I'll need a spot for this busted up old hard core body too.
Don't have an answer to the original questions but the FB "Cadillac" groups are booming. Perhaps that's where the folks have gone
Greg Surfas
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on April 16, 2025, 06:04:43 AMThe allowance for image size is 50 MB.
When downloading pictures to the Message Board, there is a guide under the box with a limit listed. As one posts more pictures, the information changes.
Bruce. >:D
Thanks Bruce and Big Finz,
I realised it was the "size" of the image and I saw the limit listed. The problem is with my phone as editing the photos down as I'm trying to upload them doesn't seem to be an option and tbh when I tried reducing photos I couldn't reduce them enough and gave up.
Phil
Does anyone follow/use the facebook group? I find that platform pretty much useless for anything other than seeing what people had for lunch today. I resisted using it at all for a long time but kept hearing about all these great groups that often were among the reasons for the forums going away.
I just don't get it. I find them almost impossible to search for anything and even if you check them daily it can be really hard to follow any specific thread. I will think I'm following something and go for days or weeks then all the sudden or by accident notice or click on something and see I missed a bunch of replies.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on April 17, 2025, 09:58:32 AMDoes anyone follow/use the facebook group? I find that platform pretty much useless for anything other than seeing what people had for lunch today.
I resisted it too. Not as easy to search stuff. But there is a lot more info on there because it's free. However you will find yourself yelling at the screen because of all the people who don't know anything.
I am kn Facebook only for car and airplane stuff. I actually have no fb friends, and I post nothing, zero, about my personal life.
But, it's free and that's where people are going.
No need to pay because you will eventually get the correct answer.
Quote from: Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373 on April 16, 2025, 09:59:41 AMI'm somewhat sad about the change. There was a time when I was on here 2-3 times/day, now it's every 2-3 days.
The I just inherited grandpa's car posts were some of the best. Remember the wealth of knowledge that those posts brought ?? Well, except the What kind of oil do I use posts.
I don't know our demographics here, but I would guess that most of us are from a time before Facebook and the internet-- A time when everything wasn't out there, and being part of a club was a necessity. Now, just about everything is out there, some correct, some not, but the point is that it's out there.
Why would a 20 year old pay a membership to a group when he could get all the information for free??
I think the members only idea would have worked 5-10 years ago, but not now.
The forum is slowly dying, and I am very sorry to see it go. This group was invaluable when we brought our 55 back to life.
Quote from: Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373 on April 16, 2025, 09:59:41 AMI'm somewhat sad about the change. There was a time when I was on here 2-3 times/day, now it's every 2-3 days.
The I just inherited grandpa's car posts were some of the best. Remember the wealth of knowledge that those posts brought ?? Well, except the What kind of oil do I use posts.
I don't know our demographics here, but I would guess that most of us are from a time before Facebook and the internet-- A time when everything wasn't out there, and being part of a club was a necessity. Now, just about everything is out there, some correct, some not, but the point is that it's out there.
Why would a 20 year old pay a membership to a group when he could get all the information for free??
I think the members only idea would have worked 5-10 years ago, but not now.
The forum is slowly dying, and I am very sorry to see it go. This group was invaluable when we brought our 55 back to life.
Jeff,
I am sorry to have to agree with you. 9 years ago, I bought my first 1940 LaSalle and three years ago I bought my second one. Early on this forum provided me with endless advice, information and guidance. Now...as regards per-war, almost nothing is posted. I understand that those who loved pre-war are aging out. At age 77 I find myself to be to be among the younger pre-war collectors. "younger" Isn't that laughable? I once spent many hours reading and searching on this site. Now...almost nothing. Perhaps a younger generation will revive it.
Bob Ritchie
I came back after about a twelve year hiatus. Some things had changed, the most noticeable, because of the changing demographic interest in the pre wars had declined. What didn't change was the temper of the posts. The exchanges were polite and when there was a difference of opinion there were no insults or flaming.
I was an early member of The HAMB, mostly hot rod Fords. As the name, The Hokey Ass Message Board implies it was the Wild West. You had to have a thick skin entering and participating as Olympic Class insults were the norm. It's much tamerer now but there are vestigial remains from its origin.
My point is, if you posted a question or comment,within minutes there were hundreds of views and responses, many with valuable information.
I reupped after being a member of the Club from the eighties until 2006. I noticed an immediate change. Because of the changing demographics the interest in the prewars had diminished. I expected that. Additionally I was happy to see many members from thirty five years ago still active.
The Club is healthy as witnessed by the number of registrations for the Grand National and especially the ancillary events which are sold out.
Then along came the The Big Change to members only and there was a decline in the number of posts and replies which was to be expected. No idea how it affected memberships. I'm sure there were new members, but in sufficient numbers to offset members who dropped out? I'm wondering what the net gain or loss of members is.
I'm certain that there were extensive discussions of revenue by the board and it played a large part in the decision to close the board to non members. How is that working out?
THere seems to be a core group, of posters on the general discussion board that are very active, and knowledgeable especially about the fifties, sixties, and seventies cars. Same as it was for the twenties, thirties and forties cars thirty years ago.
I'm not a member of any social media platform excepts FB which I joined recently. My profile is the minimum required to maintain membership. I only use it for MArketPlace and list a separate, non gmail dedicated address. MArketplace, eBay and the ease if buying on the Internet is killing CL and by extension, swap meets which have become bazaars selling rubber chickens and all manner of cheap trinkets. THe only automotive related items are overpriced, vendor supplied speed equipment and inexpensive tools. People aren't cleaning out garages and selling at swap meets.There are not nearly as many parts there as years ago. The work involved, travel costs, cost of tables, etc. A couple of friends from the Chevy Club went to Hershey last year and they noticed a big change from years past.
THis has gotten too random and it's time to go.
tony
I noticed the change to automotive swap meets beginning some 25 years ago, but especially in the last 15 years. Hershey began to "thin out" just prior to covid. Lots of empty vendor spots & less crowds compared to years ago. Same thing happening to the antique show circuit. These things tend to run their course and as demographics change and members age out, the collecting landscape also changes. Noticed the same thing with the local photographic show and swap meets. As a senior citizen attending those shows, looking around at the other attendees I feel rather young again. Lots of people in their 80+ age bracket. Another group of collectors that are aging out. Perhaps in the future the "Antique Cell Phone Show & Swap Meet" will be packing them in! :) Clay/Lexi
Here is an example of what the forum is missing out on from the FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/cadillaclasalleclub/?multi_permalinks=10162835799828162
You may have to scroll a bit but a totally original complete '31 Cad for that price! The write up is an excellent example of what it takes to sell a car. Harry
Quote from: harry s on April 18, 2025, 11:56:18 AMHere is an example of what the forum is missing out on from the FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/cadillaclasalleclub/?multi_permalinks=10162835799828162
You may have to scroll a bit but a totally original complete '31 Cad for that price! The write up is an excellent example of what it takes to sell a car. Harry
The page is set to private. I cannot see it.
Yep set as a private group for me too. Reading what can be seen it really seems to imply its an official part of the CLC. Is that true? So the board oversees it just like here?
Simply click on the "Join Group" button near the top.
On the post above saying that you can't see the ad in the 31 unless you are a member....... That is true.
But the point is, to be a member, you just need to click--- And, most importantly,
it's Free!
I am a person who made up a CLC number to make a profile, I'm sure the Mods got a laugh about that.
It took a few days after that failure to pull the trigger and pay for membership.
I didn't make up a CLC number because I thought I was clever, but because I hadn't heard of any pay-to-play Forums existing since the early 2000's and I honestly couldn't believe it.
I have not use this forum much because I have not had time to work on my project yet, but I will soon, and then I will see if this forum pays off; whether I will continue my membership in the future; whether I will make any lasting friends, etc.
As "internet experiences" become cheaper and cheaper(free-er), pay-to-play sites like this will surely become obsolete, but I also think that is going to take a couple decades. There's still enough of these cars around and love for them to keep this board alive--maybe not as lively as before--but alive.
I agree that the payment will deter younger "inherited granpas car" people who add a little spice to the conversations.
Reminds me of those miserable HOA controlled gated prisons people pay extra money to live in. Not as much crime and every person inside is tracked--but its too homogeneous and clean for me. I'll take some bad crime and annoying neighbors along with unique houses, unique people, cars parked outside overnight.
Doesn't bother me.
This forum will become too homogeneous with the lack of any riff-raff. I know that sounds profound, but that is what I've observed.
I'm young, I used to go to punk rock shows when I was 20 and I always saw these people there who didn't work, dressed like they were homeless, had no money for food and maybe one beer, they never bought a band shirt--but they were punk music fans and they spent their last $5 to get into that show. I went to the promoter and asked, "why do you guys charge $5 for entry? You know most of the kids can't afford that, and if you made the show free you'd get a TON more people here to cheer for these bands--theres only 12 people here tonight.....what gives???"
The promoters had one answer: It keeps truly homeless drunkards out. The shows used to be free but were taken over by street people who had nowhere to go, they had mental problems or drug/drinking issues, they were not music fans.
The promoters charged at the door to filter out riff-raff, even if that meant 9 less enthusiastic kids would show up.
There are two sides to every coin.
What do other forums that are free do to deal with the scammers? The scammers made the buy and sell feature of this forum useless.
The buy sell part of the forum is what the scammers were after. The scammers did not ask questions or participate in conversation.
"What do other forums that are free do to deal with the scammers? The scammers made the buy and sell feature of this forum useless."
I urge anyone here who'd consider turning the forum into a freebee to check out Google for free Cadillac fora. Filled with ads on top of more ads, the content is generally shallow, with some well meaning folks repeating the same information, apparently, never bothering to read the thread, so a specific thread generally lacks depth, or you'll observe folks who simply weigh in without any concern for civility or decorum. While some CLC members have expressed concern about the gradual demise of the hobby and CLC as an organization, I believe that an international community of billions of electronically connected people will always provide a fractional connection with active Cadillac LaSalle enthusiasts who will pay to engage with others who are similarly focused and are much more than passively interested. Additionally, CLC members have likely concluded that "modern electronically integrated" Cadillacs don't receive much focus... understandable since electronic failures are chock full of complexities and challenges, and so CLC tends to focus on pre-1980's models.
Best way to make lasting friends is to get involved with the Club either at a National or local level (Regions). The benefit of getting to know local CLC members is they can be a great resource for local services, repair facilities and even come over to lend a hand as needed.
There are also Chapters for specialties such as LaSalle, 1941, 1963/1964, 1959/1960, Deville Droptops, Eldorado Brougham, Fleetwood & Brougham, Allante, Vertical Headlamps. The CLC Board has discussed the goal of adding V-Series and/or Escalade Chapters but need someone to step up and be instrumental in coordinating them.
https://cadillaclasalleclub.org/regions-chapters-affiliates/
When we attend local or national CLC events it is like vacationing with a huge group of friends who share our similar interests. We always have a great time and look forward to the next time.
Ya wanna know something truly weird? I've been part of large forums for 15+ years: A modern-ish Honda board(3 forums actually), an old Chevy truck forum, and an old Ford truck forum.
I have found the western "meets", "events", "chapters", whatever...., to be woefully less active and organized compared to midwestern, eastern, and south-eastern chapters.
I find it frankly funny and unbelievable....I live in the most populous state with perfect weather 10-11 months out of the year and for the love of God we can't manage to get Ford people together, Chevy people, or Honda people.
...but over in "King of Prussia", or "VA Beach", Or Ohio, they have MASSIVE meets with great turnouts--everyone knows eachother like brothers.
Always found that to be absolutely nuts.
There is some good stuff in SoCal specifically, but they are not nearly as loyal and cohesive as other random areas of the country.
I found a website that had pictures of a Pontiac Trans-Am club from Texas in the late 70's and Early 80's that had hundreds of vintage pictures of car shows, and pictures of 30-40 Trans Ams driving down a local Hi-way.
I showed them to some SoCal Honda guys and laughed: We have nearly 30 million people in SoCal metro and we have the power of instant unification with cell phone texting and internet....and our pathetic meets barely manage to get 15 people out on a Saturday night to meet for food...
My point is, in my experience I have always been underwhelmed by Central-Southern CA car gathering/clubs.
Sorry for my ramblings, just observations.
Quote from: Tom Boehm on April 29, 2025, 02:08:56 AMWhat do other forums that are free do to deal with the scammers? The scammers made the buy and sell feature of this forum useless.
The buy sell part of the forum is what the scammers were after. The scammers did not ask questions or participate in conversation.
Agreed.
Could have been made so that it was pay to play on the parts/for sale sections, but knowledge is free.
We lost a LOT of good talent, and have/will lose a lot more new people.
Absolute shame.
Quote from: Rhodes on April 29, 2025, 09:43:33 AMI have found the western "meets", "events", "chapters", whatever...., to be woefully less active and organized compared to midwestern, eastern, and south-eastern chapters.
I find it frankly funny and unbelievable....I live in the most populous state with perfect weather 10-11 months out of the year and for the love of God we can't manage to get Ford people together, Chevy people, or Honda people.
...but over in "King of Prussia", or "VA Beach", Or Ohio, they have MASSIVE meets with great turnouts--everyone knows each other like brothers.
Ya mean like an annual 1000+ vehicle Mustang show?
Yeah, that happens at Woodward Dream Cruise every August in Michigan. Plus several thousand more Mustangs cruising the Avenue with the other 40 or 50,000 vintage, hot rod, custom, one-off, special-interest, military, fire, classic or other interesting vehicles at the event.
Along with too many every day crossovers, lifted Ram / Ford / Cheby trucks, etc. but still a blast none the less.
I don't think anyone could dispute that this place is a ghost town compared to what it was. Forums are losing relevance in general and have been for a long time but it was pretty much night and day here the moment the purge happened. Most websites/social media are valued by their user interactions; some function of views (lowest value), comments/messages (middle value), and purchases made following the use of a site (highest value). So if we go by that metric, I don't think there's any doubt that the change was a loser for the Forum.
Yes, there was some gobbledygook about scammers being banned forever, but anyone who has a WTB ad knows the scammers are still around, and there is still no "REPORT" button to bring immediate attention of a whacky profile to a moderator's attention. There is still no "best practices" flag on the buy/sell pages warning users of what to do and what not to do. Scammers had nothing to do with the change, and if they did we've accomplished nothing but create a lot of work for moderators.
While unfortunate, the real reason for the change was basically explained that the Forum only exists to help the Club and it was becoming a financial drain on the Club to maintain it with so many perceived parasites (unpaid users) to carry.
So, the question is, was the rule change worth it for the Club? Some factors to think about to assess this:
-What is the change in new memberships in the past year compared to prior equivalent periods?
-Have the new membership requirements on the Forum materially improved the Club's financial position?
-There was discussion related to the financial burden of hosting the site that would be ostensibly lifted
by freeloaders having to pay for access; does the forum stand of its own right now that the old leaches
pay?
-How many active leaches/parasites left after the change and did not come back-does anyone know why
they didn't come back & how does this bode for retention of the people who did pay up?
-Do projected new memberships (online only) adequately cover presumably ever-increasing hosting costs?
-Have any steps been taken to see about a more economical way to host the site to ensure long-term
sustainability? It was mentioned the the Riviera Club/Buick & a host of other clubs are able achieve the same
end with economies of scale on a larger site
-Is there a way to see what amount of the "new" members are actually new/aka conquest sale, versus others
who joined up after having had forum logins in the past?
Any further insight into the demographics of the "new new" members-we would hope for younger people
who would ideally be around for a long time as club members- to follow on this has the demographic
of "new new" members skewed any older/younger than it was before the change? There was consternation
before the change that the poorest, most resourceful, and most long-term valuable demographic (young
people) would just go somewhere else when confronted with a perceived $25 scalp for access to the
site they just stumbled across after inheriting grandpas old car.
-Have the new membership requirements/new members created an increase in interest in the Club? (Increased
event participation, new faces in club positions, increase in "full" memberships etc.)
Smokeuspolluteus' post was too long to quote but well said.
I think the end result will be the spiraling of things here, a loss in membership, and basically the death of the forum.
For me, the best part was the forum. The best part of the forum was all the interactions. Now that those are a shadow of its former self (to use his words), the forum is less of a draw. I was once on here 2-3 times/day. Now it's 2-3 times/ week. At some point, it will get to the place where it simply isn't worth it anymore. I'm not there yet, and hopefully it will be years, but I can see it coming.
If others are the same then it will slowly die.
I think the change resulted in a short-term gain, but will result in a long term loss.
I am saying this because that's how I see it. I have no power here, and even if I did, I don't know how to reverse it. I think the damage has already been done.
But if anyone who has power sees this, please at least consider my words and concerns, along with those of most everyone else's here.
How do we turn this around?
ford and chevy forums I use have free general membership but you must be a paid member to post anything for sale. Mods are VERY quick to remove your post when even insinuating a sale is to take place.
The MBZ Club (at least for North America) requires a paid membership to post on the their forum. During a prior stint as an MB owner, I joined (not primarily for the forum). I recently added another one to the fleet, but must admit I have not rejoined the MBCNA, which seems much too focused on the newer models and all that entails. There is plenty of great (free) advice on older models in that world available on the unofficial forums, which I have not found to be the case with Cadillacs. Although since I have been happy here, I haven't really been looking for other communities. I do participate in some social media groups focused on Cadilacs, but it seems like with most of them I am answering redundant questions or correcting erroneous information far more often than I am actually learning anything new, whereas here, I am often the one asking questions. You learn more if you're not the most knowledgeable person in the room. Also, while I am very wary of entering into any transactions with people on those sites, over the years I have both bought and sold parts here, and had very positive experiences. Although I have only dealt with the "regulars" on here, many of whom I have met in person, or corresponded with extensively.
Quote from: Tom Boehm on April 15, 2025, 09:32:58 PMA few bad apples spoil things for the rest of us. It is a fact of life everywhere.
The scammers were stopped but it came at a very steep price.
Pick your evil: scammers or lower participation.
I can't stand scammers. >:(
Quote from: Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373 on April 17, 2025, 10:47:21 AMI resisted it too. Not as easy to search stuff. But there is a lot more info on there because it's free. However you will find yourself yelling at the screen because of all the people who don't know anything.
I am kn Facebook only for car and airplane stuff. I actually have no fb friends, and I post nothing, zero, about my personal life.
But, it's free and that's where people are going.
No need to pay because you will eventually get the correct answer.
Remember, if its all free but the company is making BILLIONS of $$$, then YOU are the product.
I haven't gone on it yet, but if Laurie, the Cape Cod Fleetwood girl twists my arm enough, I might , eventually, but like you only for cars or cameras (Canon F-1)