An interesting article in this weeks Detroit Crains Magazine about Bob Lutzs keynote speech at the recent SAE World Congress.
Bob Lutz was quoted to say things such as: "US engineers need to be more hands-on". "We are deliberately avoiding the hands-on engineer, and I believe we need to change that." "In many cases (US engineers) dont have the bone-deep understanding and the ability to draw and model without calling in a bunch of specialists." "You have to have an intimate relationship with the three-dimensional object. Youve got to see it and touch it and be able to pick it up."
Lutz says that the US system encourages a reliance on virtual engineering instead of individuals who are willing to "get their hands dirty".
So that is why it is near impossible for the average Joe to work on his own car!!!
Plus it probably doesnt help that a majority of those "engineers" designing new cars dont know how to change their own windshield wipers. (But they can draw them on their computers.)
Go getem Bob!
Look
whos talking! The manufacturing corporations are the ones who got this
computer "engineering" going. They (GM in particular) are losing the
battle to stay alive. Ill send you an example of what I mean. GMs
moguls need to go back to the teachings of Alfred Sloan. They need to
fire the bean counters that have run and ruined the company since 1961,
and get someone to run the outfit who is interested in giving the
customer what he wants. Its 44 years since GM began to be mismanaged,
and its been downhill since then. People have started with the company
since then and have retired, never knowing what the company was for in
the first place. GM has made too many disasterous mistakes. Nobody is
ever the better for doing it, either. Consider: the dieselized 350 Olds
engine the Vega engine, the Cadillac 4100 engine,The Chevrolet engine
mounts, the Chevy soft camshafts, the Cimarron, Cadillac Allende, and
the most recent triumph, the Pontiac Aztek. Mistakes and deliberate
blunders dont make money or PR for you. The US manufacturers havent
made an american car for so long, the public has to look at our
collector cars to see what a real automobile looks like. Its
subjective, of course, but there isnt a passenger car made today that
Id like to own. But the car makers keep grinding out the same old
shapeless jellybeans year after year. Take it or leave it. There hasnt
been a real choice in decades.
In a couple of recent CLC meetings, a guy from Cadillac told us about
the wonderful niceties coming down the road for us to buy (hopefully).
His presentation was a volley of gadgets, contraptions, conveniences,
thingamajigs, doo-dads, and whatever that you get on a car (no delete
options) that still looks like a sharp-edged jellybean. Market surveys
dont seem to have a bearing on what they want to make money on. Making
the money is the sole goal, and not what a customer might want. I
really cant see a way out for American manufacturers. I guess that
well just have to wear ear plugs and wait for the crash. Its tragic.
Tony and I were discussing this last night. My question was...
The US carmakers made the nicest, most luxurious vehicles that were ever produced in the 1970s, and they have gone downhill in comfort and styling ever since. Why the 30-year slide? Autos have sunk all the way down into the garbage that Japan was churning out for $2-3000 in the 70s. To people who have gradually moved up in model year, it may not have been as noticeable, but to those of us who were accustomed to driving older, nicer cars and suddenly moved up, its a rude shock! Its like getting kicked out of a plush, but older, hotel suite and into a brand new room at the Motel 6.
Tony says that US government regulations are to blame. I dont think so.
For the styling, yes. Cars have to be shaped like wind tunnels, so style is no longer an option. They might as well let the Japanese design the bodies, which, I think, is what they are doing.
But horsepower...theyve managed to put that back into the cars despite the kicking and screaming of government. Why cant they do that with the ride and comfort? "Weight", says my better half, "they cant make them as heavy as they used to". Thats not it. A new Town Car weighs as much as the later 70s Caddies did, but it rides like a brick.
My best guess is that the US carmakers assume that the garbage they make is what we want to buy. Every now and then, I run across someone who doesnt think so, and its refreshing.
-densie
New cars suck.
Lynn
Well, I can see both sides of the story, and I have to agree with both sides of the story.
But, I still would prefer to be in the latest built motor vehicle if I was unlucky enough to be involved in an accident.
But, as I dont intend to be involved in any sort of accident, I will still drive my 60 CDV, with NO SAFETY EQUIPMENT, and be able to see all around me and park without hitting other objects as I can see all four corners on it without having to get out of the seat.
Financial constraints will never allow me to buy one of these new cars, and as I wont be buying one, the Auto Makers will be able to partially blame me for their demise.
I hope that the Auto Industry will come the full circle and start designing and building automobiles that people can really enjoy, both visually and safely, and buy cheaply.
Autos are still only about transportation from A to B, and back again, so lets get back to cheap reliable cars for us financially challenged, and expensive cars for the wealthy, and then us financially challenged will again be able to dream of having the wherewithall to move up in the world.
Isnt life full of dreams?
Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV (with dual circuit brakes)
P.S. If we didnt have "Bean Counters" how would we know how much coffee was in the jar?
P.P.S. What we dont need is "Creative Accountants"
Well I agree, Lynn...and yet, for many they are better than anything yet off the assembly line. I had the opportunity to ride in the Chrysler top of the line mini-vans (ugh) and it was loaded with special features, leather and all the trimmings...everything one could want. I have no idea what it cost. I think it was a Stow-and-Go.
But...
the trimmings were all plastic. Many of the smaller features did not work (Chrysler reliability strikes again), and most of it all relyed on the computers in the system.
It also has many, many air bags.
What bothered me most was :
A. it was the single most uncomfortable set of seats I have ever sat in.
B. Quality Control in this case was an oxymoron.
C. It gets a respectable 19 mpg on the highway but in town it gets worse than my
1977 Eldo. about 12 mpg.
Its safe, superficially handsome, and without any real pizzaz. The interiors are better though with the wood and polished steel (all in brittle plastic).
I could not afford this vehicle and it is not something I would lust after but it did have separate a/c controls. And a DVD player which would NEVER be used while I rode in it. I am sure for most people looking for a nice car that will last them three of the four years they have to pay and can trade in, it is a decent answer with 8 seats and goo gaws galore. Expediency, and quick turn over to maximize the warrenty is all that is required. Ours expectations are different these days.
It is being driven home more and more that what I love about the old cars is no longer important nor desired. I am losing interest in it all. I just want a nice car to enjoy and after that I doubt any of it matters.
Hello all,
Sue makes a very good point concerning engineers. Being a Ford Technician, I can speak first hand about how the people who designed some of these creations have never opened a hood in their life.
While the engineers create that nightmare that Joe Average cannot service, the Federal Government sets the standards to which the engineers must conform. Government regulations, (CAFE, Emissions, FMVSS, etc.) require very sophisticated equipment in order to ensure compliance.
And, these regulation are extremely specific. For example, a few years ago, the Ford Focus was the subject of a Compliance Recall that concerned the A-Pillar Trim panel. We had to replace this piece of trim because it was not in compliance with a FMVSS in the event of an accident. The new piece looked exactally like the old one. But, it didnt meet a government standard.
This happens all the time. We are currently replacing the liftgate release rod on new Ford Escapes because it is not in compliance with some standard.
"Wind tunnel styling," as Denise mentioned, is a result of trying to squeeze every last MPG out of a vehicle in order to meet CAFE standards. However, the ride and comfort issue has taken its current direction because of consumer demand. Strange as it may sound, an overwhelming majority of comsumers dont want a wallowing land barge that leans excessively in a turn and does a ninety degree nose dive while braking.
I have said this absolute truth before - NEW CARS ARE MORE RELIABLE, MORE POWERFUL, MUCH SAFER, AND MORE EFFICIENT. Fact, period, end of discussion. In the Ford world, warranty work at the dealership continues to decline about 10percent each year.
Thank you,
Todd
Todd, you make some extremely realistic and valid points. However, I do not see why you would refer to a wallowing land barge when it comes to comfort. While the admittedly important consumer, i.e. upwardly mobile 20-30s, want BMW like performance (nothing wrong with that), many in our rapidly aging population would like a car that rides less like a sports car and more like a sedan.
In fact, as an aging, disabled adult, I would be exceedingly thankful for a sedan with bench seats (even spit bench) that I can enter and exit without excessive discomfort, and allows us to ride from point A to point B without causing discomfort and fatique. If you are not encumbered with a disability or simple age impairment then you probably have not real idea of the day to day problem I am talking about.
A car does not have to be a wallowing land barge to be comfortable. My 1977 Eldorado with the proper shocks, and springs, is comfortable as well as responsive. It is no BMW but under the hand of a trained driver it performs quite well without dipping or swaying. If I were concerned about it, I would add a bigger sway bar but it does not need it.
Many fall into the trap that the only reasonable and sensible argument is that of the automobile industrys business case. That is not a viable world view. Unfortunately many consider it just so. It is a sad reminder of just how far out of touch people have gotten today.
I prefer driving my 77 Biarritz over my Monte Carlo SS or El Camino. It is roomy, has a comfortable seat, and has a good ride. Sure the handling could be better, but heavy duty front shocks improved the handling enough so it doesnt feel like a barge.
I think we can all agree that routine maintenance is generally better now than it has ever been. Tuneups are no longer an annual event. Paint finishes are not as good as they were on GM cars of the 1960s. Interior upholstery tends to hold up better today than in older cars. The quality of some materials are inferior to the older cars (chrome plated plastic parts, plastic used in high stress applications, thinner rubber seals for sunroofs and door window seals, etc.). Part of this quality issue is driven by cost and part by government crash test deformation/absorption standards.
The styling of most new cars is just terrible. When the new 300 is considered the best thing coming out of Detroit, you know something is wrong. The short deck and too-small windows make it look like it was designed in sections by a committee. The roof looks like it belongs on a humvee! I would take any 55-71 300 over this thing - even the ugly 63-64 models.
Enjoy the old cars for the great styling and colorful interiors because this will probably never return. Accept the new cars as just transportation.
68 Eldorado
77 Biarritz
I have a 1977 Eldorado Biarritz w/EFI and have spend a lot of time gathering EFI related parts to ensure the car will continue to run for years to come without excessive down-time. What will owners with new cars of today do when they need a computer module of some sort to repair their car 20 years from now? It appears that the automobile companies only stock parts for about 5 years now compared to 10-15 years for the cars of the 70s. The computer age has brought about a new crisis called parts obsolesence in a new meaning.
>In fact, as an aging, disabled adult, I would be exceedingly thankful for a sedan with bench seats (even spit bench) that I can enter and exit without excessive discomfort, and allows us to ride from point A to point B without causing discomfort and fatique. If you are not encumbered with a disability or simple age impairment then you probably have not real idea of the day to day problem I am talking about.
I was just thinking about that this morning, when I ran over the speed bumps and turned in to the parking garage. Someone who didnt have a throbbing neck and shoulder injury might not notice, or mind, the way that a newer car tosses a person around. But couldnt there be a car, at least ONE car, out there, for the people who want or need something that doesnt?
A car that has a decent pair of shocks can have reasonably soft springs and ride smoothly without dipping or rolling. It may not do as well around the pylon cones as a sports car, but does that matter? Im just driving to work and back, and an occasional highway trip, and Id like to be able to do it without being jostled around.
-d
Like most all new products you buy nowadays, like a computer, technologically obsolete in three years.
You can take a 60s car and install steel radial tires, gas shocks, disc brakes and some other goodies and it will perform comparable to the new cars. I did that with my 66 Vette years ago, steel radials and Bilstein shocks, TRW rear leaf spring, kept the antique Holley carb on the factory 327/350 hp engine, could eat Mustangs for lunch.
My 90 Chevy van has throttle body fuel injection, that eliminates the troublesome antique carburetor.
You can take the old car quality and add on some new technology and they are a superior machine to this new high tech overpriced junk they are foisting on the public, they can keep their air bags too. GM added the collapsable steering column in 1967 and the shoulder harness in 1968.
I second Lynns comments, the new cars are a joke.
GM is a follower instead of a leader like they used to be, they need to think outside of the box. They have so much debt now they may not survive, bankrupcty is not out of the question.
Ill drive a Jap car when GM or Ford doesnt exist anymore, only because I would have to.
Porter
Todd,
Thanks for your message. I for one, think many of the new cars are spectacular in terms of ride, comfort, and safety- but styling is pretty conformist in each class, and maintenance is frightful if youre not under warranty.
I drive a 99 F-350 Super Duty Crew Cab 4x4 turbo diesel as my daily driver in Silicon Valley, less and less my 66 Eldo due to ridiculous fuel costs- but my preferred rental cars are usually Crown Vic/Marquis/Town Car because they are plenty comfortable and get great mileage. Not much for character, but I hate the ride of their contemporary Cadillac/GM counterparts.
You guys in the American car industry deserve a pat on the back for working under extremely challenging conditions, and having made a pretty good comeback from the 70s, albeit with less market share...
Lets face it, the car manufacturers have either consciously or lucked onto the secret that makes Bill Gates and Michael Dell so immensely wealthy- we have to buy new computer hardware and software every 3-5 years, e.g., Windows 97/2000/2003, the Pentium I, II, etc...All they had to do was make their vehicles dependent on those systems and youve got another industry that manufactures obsolescence. Problem is, its gotten damn expensive unless youre under warranty.
Randall,
You are entirely correct on the comfort issue. Unfortunately, there are times when the connection between my brain and my typing fingers is not working correctly. While I was thinking about the changes in desireable performance characteristics, I was typing something different. I appologize for that.
Yes, comfort is an entirely different issue. I have said this before - I would trade my 1996 Mark VIII for a 1977/78 Eldorado Biarritz in a heartbeat. They have THE most comfortable seats of any automobile on the planet. The styling is beautiful, and the mechanicals are simple. But, if I wanted to do this because I thought the Eldo accelerated/braked/handled/slurped gas better than my Mark, I would be a fool. There is something wonderful about the personality of an old car that a new one cannot provide.
I have seen the term "wallowing land barge" used in new vs. old comparisons to describe the overall handling characteristics of older vehicles. And, after owning several of each, I agree with that assesment. My 1965 Deville Convertible, 1969 Mark III, and 1984 Coupe de Ville could be downright scarey in any kind of emergency maneuvers, (especially the 1965 Deville with its virtually useless 4-wheel drum brakes).
And, YES, I fully understand your comments concerning a person with disabilities. Plese allow me to make a long story as short as I can . . .
In 1948, my father broke his neck in a swimming accident, leaving him a quadraplegic. After leaving the hospital, now in a wheelchair, he continued on with life, although at a different pace. He became involved in local politics, got married, and (WARNING
Im not sure how I managed to hit the enter key, but I did. Something is obviously not working for me today. So, lets try this again.
As I was saying, I fully understand your comments concerning a person with disabilities. In 1948, my father broke his neck in a swimming accident, leaving him a quadraplegic. After leaving the hospital, now in a wheelchair, he continued on with life, although at a different pace. He became involved in local politics, got married, started a business, and (WARNING - shameless self-promotion dead ahead!) adopted two beautiful, wonderful children.
Family outings required enough room for Mom, Dad, two kids and Dads electric wheelchair. Mom would put us kids in the car, pick my dad up and put him in the front seat, lift the batteries off the wheelchair so it could be placed into the trunk.
In the 1970s, Dad got a car-top mounted hydraulic lift. This made it much easier to get him into the seat. This was great since large, two-door cars were plentiful.
My dad always used to say how much he loved sitting in that big, comfortable car seat when traveling. Over the years, the disappearance of the two-door car made it much more difficult for him to be lifted in the passenger seat. The final blow came with the end of the rain gutters. Now, the car-top lift could no longer be attached to the roof.
The new wave of accessible minivans in the 1990s solved the space problem. But, the days of sitting in a big, comfortable chair were gone.
My dad experienced first hand how the industry, in his eyes, abandoned him (it is at this point that your question of is-there-a-point-to-this-rambling is answered).
As a side note, I love this forum. It allows a diverse qroup of people with different perspectives a chance to interact.
Thank you for listening.
Todd
The shoulder belt may not be as wonderful an invention as law enforcement seems to think it is. Its a prybar that pulls your spine and upper ribs apart, even in low speed collisions.
I had my auto accident at about 35 mph, and the oncoming car was doing less than 10, cutting across the boulevard trying to make a left turn in front of me. The shoulder belt caused permanent damage to my shoulder, and chronic pain that may last the rest of my life. Wearing just a lap belt might have caused trauma to the steering wheel, but would that have been worse? Im not convinced.
Try this, if you have access to a medical skeleton (your doctor would probably let you look at his). Put your left arm around the shoulder where a shoulder belt would be, and push the head forward. See the place where the first two ribs come around the back of the neck and meet the vertebrae? Watch as your head acts as a prybar and pulls all of those bones apart. OUCH!
Air bags seem like a good idea, but I really dont like having an explosive device, armed with a detonator, right in front of me when Im driving. The fact that they kill children and blow peoples thumbs apart doesnt impress me, either.
One intelligent thing to do would be to put a harness around both shoulders...maybe suspended from a roll bar?
Another intelligent thing to do would be to let people make their own decisions regarding safety devices. One size doesnt necessarily fit all. Instead of discussing which safety devices people should be forced to use, talk about what safety options might be available for us.
For instance, why does a race car driver walk out of a 200 mph wreck, when a passenger car driver is killed at 50 mph? Maybe we want the protection that the race car has. Maybe we dont want any safety devices? Or maybe we want to choose which part of our bodies we would place at risk, and which to give a little more protection? We all have parts of our bodies that mean more to us than others!
I drive my car with my shoulder belt behind me sometimes. I cant stand the thought of having my shoulder pulled apart again, and my experience tells me that I would probably be better off going into the air bag at 35 mph. Of course if I get pulled over, theres no point in telling a cop that. He has been educated to believe that shoulder belts should be forced around people, and hes not going to make an exception for anything.
-denise
I had two cars with roll bars. One was a VW based dune buggy, the other was a Corvair dragster. They both had five point harnesses attached to the bar. The Corvair was spring loaded. I never hit anything with either, but I felt quite secure.
Race car safety is at the expense of comfort. If you dont like your Mercury, you would hate something built as safe as a racer.
The engine costs money, your kidneys, bones and liver are expendable! But the noise, well, thats a matter of taste.
I have been in an accident where the airbag went off. A rear ender in an Escort, about 25mph. Broke both of my thumbs, just hairline cracks. Still hurts sometimes two and a half years later. I agree that safety gear should be designed by stuntmen, not Congress Critters.
As for wearing your belt, check the statute at the library. In N.C. there are exemptions for : mail service, the paperboy, short hop vehicles under 35 mph, slow farm vehicles, PEOPLE WITH RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL PROBLEMS. Look up the statute and then ask your doctor to look at the statute and give you a "note".
There it is, in the Arizona statutes as well
2. A person possessing a written statement from a physician that the person is unable for medical or psychological reasons to wear a lap and shoulder belt or a lap belt.
I would not have thought to ask my doctor if you hadnt mentioned it.
There still might be a problem with city or federal statutes. Ive heard that Tucson was trying to pass a special revenue enhancement of $250 for seat belt tickets, but I havent heard the latest. This doctors note might help in any situation.
thanks
-densie
This was the dilemma that I faced after my auto accident. I didnt want to spend the money for a new car, but Ive been listening to all of these accounts of problems with the computerized junk, and so what would happen if I bought a three or four year old car and it had problems? No warranty, no practical way to fix it. There is one good auto electric shop that I know of in Tucson, and they have a six week waiting list.
-densie
Not so fast!!!!!
There used to be a procedure here in Australia where one could obtain a Doctors Certificate to allow the non-use of the Seat Belt because of medical conditions, but the medical fraternity have now stopped doing this, as they have found that any form of protection is better than none, even considering the medical condition of the occupants of the vehicle.
It must be remembered that over here in Australia, the use of the combined Lap/Sash Restraints have been mandatory since 1969 in various seating positions, and the American type belts where the Lap and the Sash can be unbuckles and worn separately are banned. One either wears a complete Lap/Sash Belt, or doesnt get carried in a car without getting booked.
Also, all our belts here are of the Retracting/Inertia type and therefore are always at the correct tension, just in case of an accident. If you leave the belt slightly loose, then it would probably result in more injuries than none at all, as the body has the chance to move further before it is instantaniouslt restrained by the loose belt, and then can still move all over the place till the movement ceases.
The idea of just hanging it over the shoulder to make it look like the belt is being worn is only fooling yourself.
As you can see, I am very consious of road safety, having seen the aftereffects of thousands of accidents, including hundreds of fatalities, and believe me, the seat belt has saved many more that it has killed or maimed.
Getting back to the subject at hand, the Auto Industry is selling something that the masses want, and, if something isnt good enough, the masses will buy a different vehicle that suits them and the unproductive maker will go under. Masses will become unemployed, bosses will have their pension, because they will have seen the writing on the wall, and jumped ship first, and the Government will be left to pay unemployment benefits out of the taxes that they will have to increase from you, the buyers.
The Old Car Industry will still survive because there is a market for the supply of parts, and you will notice that the Major Auto Manufacturers arent supplying those parts because they want to see these cars off the roads, and everyone buying their new product.
I think the only reason Henry Ford continued building the Model T for so long was that as sooon as he realised he had actually put as many people into his car as he could, then was the time to change the shape so he could sell more. A bit like the VW. One can only build something simple until the masses see that there is something being built that is better and more comfortable than the Old Reliable.
Phew,
Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV
P.S. Denise, I am truely sorry that you are still crook, but had you ever thought of going back to upgrading your older car to use as everyday transport? No Computers, reliable mechanics, etc. etc.
Why not so fast? Must we ALL put up with the edicts of doddering old men? By that I mean Congress Critters, not the Tassie. Playing fair, must we also put up with the edicts of doddering old women Congress Critters?
Seriously, Densie lives in Arizona and if the law there lets her off the hook, so be it. Granted it isnt the best idea to not wear belts, but I am also exempt. I am a paperboy!
I have a very nice cushion on my steering wheel. NO air bag, its a 94, the one EVERYONE derided, the Cavalier.
You want I should maybe deliver papers in a 1938 La Salle?
I could also get a doctors note if I needed one. And I wouldnt hesitate, I dont need one yet. USE the law to your advantage. It wasnt written with your safety or well being in mind. It was written with your COMPLIANCE in mind. If it was your safety they worried about they would give you a jail sentence to insure you obey. They take your money instead. Hmmm.
As for safety, I am designing a permanent arm attached to the console of my Toyota van so that I can just slip behind it at the wheel and be as safe as though I was wearing a belt. The concept may be too clever by half, so dont go looking for pics anytime soon. It would be a royal pain to do the same in the Cavalier.
Gday Rhino,
I understand where you are coming from, but, arent your Congress persons elected by the majority to sit in Congress and make educated, or personal decisions on the electors behalf?
If a law needs changing, then Lobby the members. Too many people just "Sit on the Fence".
When you design the permanent arm in the Toyota, you had better move EVERYTHING that you might need whilst seated in the position that you decide upon to sit, within easy reach.
With my Dragsters, EVERYTHING was within easy reach whilst belted in tight. The only way to fly.
And, Whatever happened to Paperboys on bicycles, or worse still, on foot. Gotta get exercise.
Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le), (who loves getting the paper delivered before breakfast),
60 CDV
No you are not an idiot....and your point(s) are very well taken. Thank you.
I may have jumped the gun (not unusual for me). I hope you did not take my comments poorly.
Yes, the 77 Eldorado is a very comfortable car. I prefer a stiffer seat like in the 1960 or 1956 cars but the Eldo was such a good deal I could not pass it up.
For $1950 I was able to secure a beautiful, and original 1977 Eldorado Biarritz with a nearly, complete interior (two small splits in the leather) with all of the options in excellent working order. The only thing aside from maintenance that I have done is replace the fender fillers on the front. The rears come next (and the vinyl landau roof must be redone and the paint too but I may leave that for the next owner).
Of course, other expenses continually run the price up, but in comparison to the new price, interest rates, and in spite of the warrenty, those are cheap in comparison. I cannot afford a new car let alone a comparable car. In 1977 that Eldorado was to most expensive car on the lot topping $18K with Tax, Title and Dealer Screw (as Jonathan says).
No matter how I look at it....low initial price, generally available parts and relatively ease in repair, including a roomy and comfortable interior...I can live with the cost of gas. Even insurance is low for this car.
I really like this car. Someday I will sell it once my 56 is done, I will sell it to a CLC member who will enjoy it. Until that time you all can bet I will take care of it as best as I can.
Bruce,
Someone sent this to me last week, I dont know if it is true but could be.....
*Can you imagine working for a company that has a little more than 500 employees and has the following statistics:**
29 have been accused of spousal abuse
7 have been arrested for fraud
19 have been accused of writing bad checks
117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
3 have done time for assault
71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
8 have been arrested for shoplifting
21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year
Can you guess which organization this is?
Give up yet?
**Its the 535 members of the United States Congress.
The same group of Idiots that crank out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line.
Surely this cant be true. You will tell us next Elvis was a junkie.
Sue,
Nothing would surprise me with what goes on within the portals of power, and those statistics are the only ones that have been brought to light.
And, yes, I have seen the list before, and was surprised that they would still be able to hold their positions.
Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV.
P.S. Elvis never commanded, or even travelled on a Chinese Junk as far as I know, so he couldnt have been a Junkie.
Hmmmm,
Here are some things to think about when entering this subject with such a vague statement.
My 1996 Mark VIII will out-accelerate, out-corner, out-brake, and generally out-perform most 1960s and 1970s vehicles. However, it will do this while emitting far less pollutants, and drinking much less fuel than ANY vehicle from that era. It will also do this without adjusting the carb and/or timing and changing the points/cap/rotor every 10K - 15K miles.
In the mid-Eighties, my 1985 Oldsmobile 442 would run the quarter mile in 16.3 seconds. This car was relatively quick for the era. A brand new Honda Oddessy minivan will run the quarter in 16.4.
And, at the extremely high end of the buying spectrum that most of us will never experience, vehicles like the Porsche Carrera GT, Ferrari Enzo, and Saleen S7 will out-perform most 1960s and 1970s RACE CARS. And, they will do this while meeting current emission standards, and with a manufacturers warranty.
Please dont get me wrong. I love old cars as much as everyone else on these boards. But, as someone who works on new cars on a daily basis, it gets to me when I here comments that refer to new cars as unreliable or junk, when I know for a fact that they are not.
Thanks for listening,
Todd
Yes, I agree with you Todd, all the way, and even the newer cars are far safer than the older cars, but the older cars do have a thing that the new cars dont have, and that is Style.
Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV
When the master cylinder on my 79 Coupe de Ville went bad, I went to AutoZone and bought a rebuilt one for a whopping $13, bench bled it right on the car, bled the lines, and was good to go.
I had to replace the starter on that car, as well, which cost me a whopping $35, and I installed it in my driveway.
Ive heard that replacing a starter on a Northstar is a major, very expensive job (I heard $800-$900) because so much has to be disassembled to get to it.
I also remember that when the electronically controlled shocks on a friends 90s Eldo went bad, it was a $900 job to replace 2 shocks!!! Luckily, it was still under warranty. I wont go into the throttle sticking open due to a bad throttle position sensor.
Need I say more? Its that old story about the multi-million dollar NASA space pen and the Russians using a pencil!
For the owner out of warranty.
Okay, know we can all wax eloquently about how much better they are than our older cars that can be repaired affordably.
Father time and rust always wins but why make cars that cost an arm and a leg for basic repairs, that will always be needed eventually ? Oh , they rustproof them better now and use SS exhaust systems, about time.
Who needs $900 computerized shock absorbers and $ 2,000 circuit board dashboards ?
The eventual collison that activates the air bags after five years will total the car easily.
$1,000 a throw for an air bag, not like you dont pay for them up front either.
I really question these air bags when Nascar drivers use belted harnesses and walk away from 100 mph plus collisions.
04-25-05
ED, have you seen the location of the "starter" on a North Star engine?
BTW NS stands for the North-end of a South bound mule.
The "Starter" is in the valve valley!
Good Luck, will never own one, Jim
Change a fuel pump on a Chevy / GMC truck? The fuel pump is in the tank and you need to drop the tank or remove the bed of the truck.
Option 1 - remove the bed. Okay so the bolts on the bed are going to be rusty if you live anywhere it snows. Then you need a couple big guys to help you take off the bed and then of course put it back on.
Option 2 - remove gas tank. If you decide to drop the tank, you will have rust and dirt falling in your face (wear safety glasses). When you do get the tank off and try to take it down you will find the wires and fuel lines very short. You will reach into a narrow spaceand find out that it is near impossible to disconnect the lines and wires. If you decide to extend the fuel lines to make it easier to connect when re-installing, you will find that they get kinked because they are now too long. So no good solution here.
New option 3 - So I solved that problem by pulling out my bedliner and cutting an access hole in my bed directly above the tank. I peeled back the portion of bed, removed and replaced the fuel pump, put the (bed) metal back in place and replaced the bed liner.
What would have been an all weekend job was finished in just a couple hours.
Man - what ingenious engineer came up with this crummy design?
I was going by what Ive heard from a mechanic who worked for a Cadillac dealership for years before opening his own shop. Hes regarded as a local expert on 4100s where I used to live in PA. To say the least, he doesnt seem to have much respect for Northstars!
Todd,
96 Mark VIII? I sure hop you dont need any Mark VIII specific parts or electronics replaced. I work for a VISTEON electronics center and can tell you first hand that most of the electronics on your car is already out of stock. Most Lincoln dealers send the owners right to me because they are tired of wasting time troubleshooting electrical issues. A neighbor of mine went to his Lincoln dealer with his 98 Mark VIII to get the drivers interior door panel repaired and was told to try a junk yard as no parts were available. The car was 5 yrs old at the time. I told him he shoulda drove it through their showroom window.
Im not biased against Lincolns. I used to work for a National Car Rental company and once had a brand new (zero mile) 1988 Eldorado coupe have both its power windows fail and fall into the door panel when I went lower them. All of todays cars are built with substandard parts to meet the manufacturers budgets. More so today. Every year they tell suppliers and vendors to lower the cost. With rising costs to the vendors, just how do you think they cut prices to the big 3? Small companies like mine get smaller every year so the Big 3 can save money and give the execs and stock holders dividends. And I doubt to many stockholders are happy right now either.
re: sit on the fence. Ive run for office twice and I will soon be a registered lobbyist in the state of North Carolina. Im a lifetime member of the Libertarian Party, the party that cant help but hit its feet with both barrels! I routinely campaign for intelligent safety laws. I feel like I am wasting my time. If you arent a person of no conscience you will be kept out of office by those who are. This is NOT cynicism, its experience.
Paperboys with liver transplants cant carry 1,200 pounds (545 kilos) of papers over a 55 mile (88 clicks) route on a bicycle.
I know about putting it all in reach, Ive done that in my Cav wagon. With all those papers you cant move much at all. In the Toyota van I cant reach the factory radio with the regular belt on! Besides, I did all that when I had my own dragster.
Gday Rhino,
It is good to see you arent a "fence sitter", but, if you were, you would need your "thick Rhino skin" to stop being impailed by the sharp points of the pickets.
And yes, I realise that everyone wants their paper delivered "before Breakfast" and the only way it can be done is from the comfort of an automobile.
I forget that what we see in the movies of the paperboy on a little bicycle, casually tossing papers onto peoples front lawns can only be done on nice sunny days, with perfect weather, and flat roads. Nothing like the real-world.
Glad to see that the Liver Transplant works, because, without a Liver, we are sure to be Deader.
Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV
P.S. These days, most bicycles cost more to buy than used cars.
Hello Dave,
Being a Ford technician, I know what you are saying. Yes, there are many things I encounter that make me scratch my head and ask "Why?" For example: I guess the engineers feel that the oil does not get hot enough in a Taurus. So, this must be why they put the oil filter right next to the catalytic converter?!?!?!?!
And, I am also familiar with how much new car parts can cost. Thank goodness my Mark does not have HID headlamps ($700 per side). While normal maintenance items are not bad, Mark-only items arent cheap, (I will probably have to get two or three more jobs if I ever have air suspension problems on this car!) Yes, new car parts can be expensive.
However, one of the deciding factors for my purchase of this car was my conversations with more experienced techs who told me that the Mark, in general, was issue-free. I purchased the car two years ago with 60K miles on the odometer. The 32K miles I have accumulated since then have been trouble free.
My service manager tells me that warranty work is declining at approximately 10percent per year. A lot more emphasis is being placed on Maintenance Services because of this.
Todd
I have the BEST paperboy job in America. I deliver weekly freebies. On Thursday I take out a calendar of events, with movie reviews, upcoming concerts, that sort of stuff. On Friday I take out a used car advertising rag. Thursday I start at 10AM!
Friday I start at 9AM. It takes about 4 hours Thursday, five and a half Friday. I put papers in wire racks all over the city, collect no money, flirt with young clerks, waitresses and hotel managers. I eat when Im ready and my boss hasnt spoken to me in two months. Downside? I havent received a gas price increase in my check. Yet! And many small business owners ask my opinion about what is happening in the city. And they respect my opinion!
Im a happy camper for a guy who cant punch his way out of a (wet) paper bag any more!
Rhino,
I am happy for you, leading a carefree life and having fun. As long as we have enough $$$ to buy parts for our cars and keep them running life is good.
Porter , working on my free 67 CDV Rat Rod ( rust rod )she runs great. Free sheetmetal and I have a mig welder.