First of all, wanted to let those who knew, know that I made it to Wilmington from Chicago just fine with the 60 sedan. Well, almost just fine anyway. Towed a u-haul trailer, did great up to Raleigh area. Then started to overheat. Added water, let it cool down, kept going.
About halfway between Raleigh and Wilmington, started to get warm again. So.. pulled into a gas station. Checked radiator, low again. Added fluid again. (remember these dont have an overflow tank, and its hot, so it could be spilling to the road). Checked oil, looked a little low, so added a quart. After 1000 plus miles, I didnt think being down a quart is so bad. SO.. kept going.
Then about 5 or 6 miles outside of Wilmington, I start seeing white smoke behind me, on the right side. Upon slowing down, its coming from under the hood too. Plus as I slow down, its running awful rough.
Made it to the new appartment, on what seemed like a wing and a prayer.
Drove it a week later to a local guy who supposedly is in the know on old cars. He does a lot of work for most of the members of a local car club. Told him everything.
Hes so far made sure the carb is in tune. Checked the timing. Checked the spark plugs, wires, distributor. One plug was fouled w/ oil. Checked distributor timing, was ok. Pulled off the heads, to check headgaskets, as this was my fear, but no problems. NO water in oil, no oil in water, etc.
With replacement of spark plug, and a better carb tuning, the engine is running slightly smoother, but still pumping out white smoke as soon as it warms up.
Any suggestions?
Im not an expert but I play one on the internet. Id say you are getting blow by on the rings of that piston.
Stampie
Chris,
White smoke is Auto Transmission Fluid, so you might check the Vacuum Modulator in the Trans.
Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV
Further, the water level in the Radiator should always be around 1" below the top of the radiator filling hole as expansion takes place when it gets hot.
If you fill it up to the top, it will always "overflow" until it finds its correct level. Usually, just above the top of the cooling fins.
Bruce,
What kind of smoke do you get if the master cylinder is leaking brake fluid into the power brake vacuum line at the carby ?
Porter
Porter,
I dont know what the colour of that smoke would be. Never had it happen to me.
Maybe Mike might know.
Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le), who doesnt know everything,
60 CDV
White smoke can also be antifreeze getting into the cylinders. Were the heads and the deck surface of the block checked for cracks when it was apart? And seeing as how the radiator kept getting low...?
This happened to me once just like this several years ago. The engine seemed fine when it was cold, and as it warmed up, white smoke would start pouring out the tailpipe. It turned out to be a cracked head.
Lynn
Stampie, Wouldnt blowby show up on a compression test though??
What u be saying about transmission fluid makes some sense. Where would the smoke be coming from then? Out of the breather and downdraft tube, or from the exhaust. Whats strange is, there is no weird smoke coming out of the exhaust.
Oh, and as for the radiator finding its level. Yeah thats always been the way. I totally agree. I guess it was just finding a level a little lower than Im used to.
As to the other fella who replied about checking the deck for cracks and all, I thought about that already. The mechanic did a chemical test on the radiator fluid and the oil, and found none of the opposite where it didnt belong.
Quote from: Bruce Reynolds # 18992Chris,
White smoke is Auto Transmission Fluid, so you might check the Vacuum Modulator in the Trans.
Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV
Further, the water level in the Radiator should always be around 1" below the top of the radiator filling hole as expansion takes place when it gets hot.
If you fill it up to the top, it will always "overflow" until it finds its correct level. Usually, just above the top of the cooling fins.
Ok, whats with the brake fluid leaking into the carb from the vacuum tube. Anybody ever had that happen? I dont think thats happening, but I know I need a new master cylinder as the pedal slowly pushes to the floor at a stop again. Its not leaking much, takes a few weeks to go down enough to add fluid. But it is leaking somewhere.
But what Im returning to is that there is no excess smoke coming from the exhaust pipes. Only from the breather tube and the downdraft tube. My thoughts are that if there was something strange getting into the carb, itd cause smoke at the exhaust pipes.
Nope, cant be getting into the oil. Did a chemical test on oil and radiator fluid, and niether is getting where it shouldnt be. Plus there aint no smoke coming from the exhaust, only from the breather and the downdraft tube.
If you have no external leaks you maybe be burning brake fluid through the vacuum line, because the master cylinder is shot.
brake fluid makes white smoke too
It doesnt have to be getting into the oil. It can be getting into the cylinders and creating white smoke without getting into the oil.
Lynn
But...did it quit overheating when you filled it up with coolant? Brake fluid, transmission fluid, etc. in the intake is not going to cause the engine to overheat.
I havent tried using chemical tests, although the idea sounds interesting. Has anyone done a cooling system pressure test?
Excessive smoke out of the breather tube indicates blowby. The condition may or may not show up on a compression test...if its using oil and its not leaking out anywhere, it may be time to consider an overhaul.
An oil-fouled spark plug could indicate a leaky valve seal or guide, or, with an older engine that is using some oil, could just mean that the plug isnt firing. A new plug might be in order, and if the wires are old, they should be replaced.
-denise
Thats what I was wondering, about the chemical test, if it could detect a leak between a water jacket and combustion chamber.
-denise
Has anyone tried smelling the smoke? Antifreeze is sickly sweet, oil, tranny and brake fluid smell like their respective dipsticks, or cover. All fluids are different colors, so pressure wash the engine bay and the trans at the coin-op car wash and look for fresh leaks when the engine dries. Use a small, easily bribed child, or ramps, to get at the trans. The child may also have a functional nose whereas you do not, just have him/her compare smells. If you dont have a child handy, look for a Mom at Wal-Mart who has several with her and rent one.
Anything that gets into the combustion chamber will also exit from the exhaust, regardless of what fluid it is. You say you have checked the oil for water and got a negative result.
Any foreign matter in the engine will make its way into the oil. the obvious conclusion is that whatever is causing the problem is oil based, so not obvious to the eye, like water or antifreeze.
Blowby thruogh the heads is caused usually by worn piston rings. Some substance could have been making its way into the engine for some time and burning away, hence no excessive exhaust smoke. but if you have developed a problem with a single piston while on a long journey, that cylinder will then act differently and blow any foreign matter back out through the valves.
Transmission fluid, or brake fluid, is a good bet. Hot unburned gasoline can also burn white.
I bet the problem has been with you for a while, un-noticed. Then the problem that has developed in the cylinder with the fouled plug has enhanced it.
Check the fouled plug , if it has fouled again, that cylinder is faulty and has exposed the other problem.
Change the oil and filter.
Disconnect the power brake hose, then any other hoses to the carb. plug the connections. Run the engine till it gets hot and check for the smoke.
Reconnect the hoses one at a time to check for the source of the smoke.
George,
Good diagnostic advice.
Definitely something wrong with that one cylinder with the fouled plug, that would be rings or valve seals if Im not mistaken. A hotter plug for that one cylinder might be acceptable , just for a stopgap measure.
06-02-05
Chris, take a q-tip and swipe the inside of the vacuum hoses.
It can/could be brake-fluid or transmission fluid. Use a new q-tip on each hose. If it is dry, nothing is being sucked into the engine.
You said that you towed a trailer, but you didnt say how big it was, nor have you said that your car is a 60 SERIES OR a 1960. If it is a 1960, natly it has a "auto-xmission. But if it is a 60 SERIES it could have a "manual" trans.
Good Luck, Jim
Wow, quite a lot of activity since I last checked. As for the smoke, its still only coming from the breather and downdraft tube. and it doesnt smell sweet. So Im thinking its not radiator fluid.
To answer the question about the overheating. It ceased to be hot when I added water. But eventually got warm again. It never did "overheat" per se, but it normally runs at a little over 1/4 on the temp guage, and it got over 1/2 a couple times. To me thats overheating. I didnt let it get any hotter, by stopping the car, and adding fluid.
The mechanic where the car is at right now, has done a leakdown test, and determined that cylinder #3 is definetely leaking much faster than any of the other cylinders. I need to talk to the shop that did the original rebuild 2+ years ago now. I think that #3 was one of the cylinders that was damaged and was sleeved. Perhaps the sleeve wasnt strong enough, or has been damaged again by a bad piston, or bad rings. Ill be back on here Monday with more info, and more questions Im sure.
I have always associated white smoke with water getting in the firing chamber. After reading your last post about #3 cyl. being sleeved, I suspect you are on the right track. A small crack in the head can also cause your symptoms.
Your 60 should have a Jetaway version transmission and it should not have a vacuum modulator, hence no vacuum lines going to it.
Good luck.
Ok, found out prices on rebuild, partial and full today, and Im still squealin, and deciding what to do. Pretty much at the point of "park it" via my wife. SO.. now Im thinking. What other engines do I have that will swap in easy? I know the good ole chevy 350 would take a different transmission and motor mounts...(as in NO way). Are there any engines made by cadillac (or others God Forbid), that will swap in easy, fit the trans, and have me on my way? 427? 472? 500? Gimme a clue, lemme know if Im nutz.
Facts are, I spent close to 7 gs on last rebuild, I know I payed more than I should have, but "thought" itd be worth it.
Im looking at close to 4 gs to get it rebuild here in Wilmington now. and I just dont have the $$$ right now, although eventually I will prolly get the original engine rebuilt and put back in. That includes the 1000 to pull and re-install and set up the rebuilt motor.
So... if I can get a different motor, for around 500 bucks or maybe a lil more, I can pay the same price to pull and re-install a different motor temporarily. That I can afford.
So.......... suggestions?
Chris,
You might look for a parts type car that has a good engine. I picked up a free 67 CDV last fall with lots of rust but the 429 runs super, starts right up, smooth idle. I have already welded up the floorpans and the lower rear window opening, it will be a Rat Rod of sorts, just something to practice some autobody work and mechanical skills. Another member I know grabbed a 75 CDV locally for $ 350, runs beautiful.
The right engine will be the easiest swap.
Just a thought,
Porter
Gday Chris,
Man, what sort of a rebuild are you talking about for $7000.
Even here in Australia, one can totally rebuild a motor for around $3000, with all machining, parts, etc, and that includes buying a motor to rebuild.
I realise that the 390 Cadillac parts are a little bit more expensive than the "run-o-the-mill" stuff, but all machining costs will be relevant, no matter what the motor is.
The money saved in performing a transplant which will require modifications, will allow you to cove all and above the added cost of the Cadillac parts.
There are a lot of suppliers of basic parts for the 390 like Federal-Mogul, Felpro, Mellings, etc, but you have to shop around. Your local engine rebuilding shop will even be a good source of parts, if they know that they are going to do the machining. Pistons have to be purchased before the cylinders have to be bored. The crank has to be measured before the bearings are purchased so that the correct grinding can be done.
If you need any expert help, dont hesitate to contact me, even though I am in Tasmania, I can assist. And, there is really nothing to stop you doing most of the work yourself. Just need the basic tools, and a friend with the specialised other stuff.
Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV, with a rebuilt motor (pulled out a 454)
Did your guy get it down to the rings? Why not just tear it down and rering that piston if everything else is good. Even if you bore that one piston out slightly to fix it then you wouldnt be doing anything that the factory didnt do. Any different type of engine swap would cost you more than a simple rebuild.
Stampie
Chris,
In my experience, the only way to afford this hobby is to do the work yourself. Anybody can open up their check book, but to learn from doing the work is the greatest reward in my opinion.
Three years ago I had never pulled an engine or tranny, but now my 60 Coupe is back on the road and I rebuilt the tranny myself. I had the local machine shop do a short block rebuild and I did the rest.
Even if you pay somebody to do the work, they are going to take certain shortcuts because they will not have the time that you will to get all the little things right.
That $1,000 that they will charge you to pull the engine will allow you to purchase an engine hoist, engine stand, floor jack, jack stands, transmission jack, and a bunch of other stuff.
In summary, the least cost option is to do the work yourself and stick with the original engine/tranny.
Regards,
Ed
Bruce,
Assuming his 60 has the original tranny (controlled coupling hydromatic a.k.a. Jetway) there is no vacuum modulator. So Id rule out the tranny.
Regards,
Ed
The 60 Cadillac has a vacuum reservoir between the engine and the booster (assuming you have the original setup). It is attached to the firewall below and to the right of the booster as you are facing the car. When I took my reservoir out during my rebuild, almost a gallon of brake fluid had found its way into the vacuum reservoir over 40 years. I can only guess it came from a leaky master cylinder.
Perhaps your engine is sucking up brake fluid that has accumulated in the vacuum reservoir?
Regards,
Ed
n/m
It is much cheaper to buy a nice car or one that somebody else already restored. If you are an average Joe farming out the work $$$ is out of the question. I keep my 15 year old daily ride running on just parts cost, very economical. If you want it done right do it yourself. Napa is my candy store, I look up the parts on their website and pick and choose what I want.
Some of us own these cars to work on them, I grew up working on cars self taught with shop manuals out of financial necessity.
My garage used to do all the work on my cars when I was too busy making money, now it is my hobby.
Come on down to
http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/ and see what we are up to, your car is modified stock,(custom paint color and modified master cylinder) you should join us an post some pictures of your 60 CDV, our good buddy the Tassie Devil(le) has a few pictures posted of his 60 CDV.
My 66 CDV is 95 percent complete but I had to pick up this free 67 CDV, been taking up all my time this year.
Porter
I guess Im in the waiting and seeing stage. Gotta get a house first. Then maybe Ill do the work I can on my own. Cant hurt to try. Worse case scenario, I mess it up and end up with a car I cant drive... hmm... I think Im already there!!!