White Wall Tires

[Makandriaco]

I can say the Emperor has no clothes if he has no clothes.

Wouldn't that be a sight if we can see Palpatine with no clothes???   ugh!

Many are missing the point. I believe George is not really against or for bias or radials, he is talking about ambiguous rules which are unfair.

[76eldo]

George,

I understand your point. But, you are in one class and if the judges in your class deducted for radials then they deducted points from everyone in that class that had radials on a pre-72 car.
That makes for a level field within your own class.

I'd have to say run proper bias ply tires on a spare set of rims of you are looking to max out your points in that section of the score sheet.

I have that some thought and just didn't want to make a 6 hour trip on the bias ply tires. Not that I wouldn't make it, I like the ride the car has.

I drove a 36 Packard hundreds of miles on new Firestone repro 7.00 16 tires and the car did fine. Would have rode better on radials but I was going for maximum points and won a first in class with that car.

Different car, different goal.

Brian

[Makandriaco]

Again... Any way the judges or whoever writes the manual is OK, just make it clear and take away ambiguous words as "MAY"

[Makandriaco]

I understand your point. But, you are in one class and if the judges in your class deducted for radials then they deducted points from everyone in that class that had radials on a pre-72 car.
That makes for a level field within your own class.

Was this fact stated way before the competition? because if it was not, it certainly was not a level field as some got an advantege in one class and others in the other

I'd have to say run proper bias ply tires on a spare set of rims of you are looking to max out your points in that section of the score sheet.

And as George said, that would make sure you do not get deduction, but since the rule is very loose, some other vehicle that spends over $1000.00 less "MAY" get no deduction also. That my friend, is unfair.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

My opinion is that times have changed. Radials are if fact safer.

If you want people to drive their cars long distances to events encourage it or all the "correct cars" in the future will only be the trailer queens.

...and cars with ABS brakes and air bags are safer too. Where does it end?

Old & new cars have coexisted on the nation's roadways for decades. Why now has it become an "issue" for so many? 

It simply means one has to adapt his driving to the limitations of the particular machine. All other things equal- certainly radials will yield a greater margin of safety. But in my book, the safest car is the one that's safely driven to begin with. That is to say, I'd sooner ride in a vehicle that was supposedly "less safe" operated responsibly within its limitations, than a modern "safe" car that was not- any time, any day of the week.

Either standards are rigorously maintained or they are doomed.

And before anyone knows what happened, the CLC will be sanctioning ABS disc brakes retrofits and aftermarket air bag retrofits for V-16s. Don't laugh- if governmental history & policy serves as any frame of reference - this is how it all begins - with something seemingly harmless & well intentioned...like radial tires.

Cadillac was once considered "Standard of the World".

Let's keep it that way.

[INTMD8]

I agree that any safety improvements while they may be improvements are still detracting from originality.

I run radials on my stuff but if I had a perfect original car with bias ply's I wouldn't give it a second thought to drive it anywhere.

[Bill Ingler #7799]

George: I see your point that you want a level playing field for all and to make that happen and be fair to all, then the judging rules and amount of points deducted MUST be based on exactly how that car left the factory when new. So now with those hard and fast rules down in black and white in the judging book, along comes a judge who will judge your car with bias ply tires and a car with radials on one side of you and another car with bias ply tires on the other side of you. Judging finished and the car beside you with radials was docked 5 points in section 39 for non authentic tires and you were docked 5 points also for non authentic tires. The car with bias ply tires on the other side of you wins as he had no penalty for tires. But you say I have bias ply tires and he also has bias ply tires, so why am I being given a penalty. The judge says the way the rules are written I have to give you a penalty because when your car left the factory it had Firestone bias ply tires and you now have Kelly Springfield bias tires on your car.

So if you want the rules so written to make the playing field equal to all, then what you are going to end up with is a judging form so complicated that you will have a hard time getting judges to follow the book plus it will also drive away owners and their car who say -who wants to put up with all that nit picking.

You can tighten up the judging rules all you want but it all depends on the 4 judges that come to your car.  How many or how few points each deducts is suggested by a scale of 1 to 4 and then is only the opinion of one judge. That is why to be fair to the car owner, the high and the low score in that 4 judge team is thrown out and the two remaining are averaged out for the car`s score.  Nothing ever should be in concrete and should always be open to change but lets don`t open the flood gates to try to fix something that is really not broken.    Bill

[Paul Phillips]

This was a topic of discussion at the judges meeting at the GN this year. My take was that radials, if done to 'look like' originals were ok and suggestion was to not deduct points in that case. I invite other judges to weigh in with how they heard the discussion.

Editorially, I want to drive my car, not put it in a museum, and to be safe while doing so. Radials, seat belts, even dual circuit master cylinders fit that situation, in my opinion. Other mods such as disk brakes, power brakes, power steering, a/c, etc can make a car 'newer', but not as true to the original. These mods have their place, and if it keeps a great older Cadillac on the road, I am ok with that. I am even ok with finding a more comfortable place for such cars within CLC judging guidelines.  Just don't try to directly compare with a car that is trying to be true to original.

Paul

[76eldo]

Paul,

That's exactly what I heard.

Brian

[hearn]

I bought a set of Diamondbacks for my 54 CdV.  I did buy the warranty (I recommend this) and have had to replace all four tires due to edge of ww turning brown.  I am still not really happy with these tires.

On wire wheels, be sure that the offset is correct if you buy a new set.

[Grant Owen]

I have had no problems with my Diamond Backs on my cars most have them fitted , they don't seem to go brown if they get a tinge a good clean always brings them up. If you get a minor mark or scuff fine wet & dry paper will get rid of those also I keep the tire pressures up to 40psi to stop the side walls from cracking. The pic of the car that has had them fitted for 6 years with no problems. Maybe the brown tinge happens due  to climatic conditions contaminants on the road surface or improper care.
All the cars I own / restore are completely original I choose radial white walls for a safety issue , luckily I am in New Zealand where cars would not be deducted points because of Radial whitewalls . what will the judges do in the States if Bias Ply tires are outlawed. It would be interesting to see how the cars are jugged do they also deduct points for things such as Stainless brake lines ?

[gary griffin]

Free 15 inch wheels and inflated "roller tires"

In the 70's the industry went to 16.5 inches for truck tires.  Many drivers old old Cadillacs just found 15 inch wheels and converted to 15' tires. The older cars were just cheap transportation back then. When 16 inch tires again became available they did not convert back because they had thrown away their 16 inch wheels.

In the process of restoring my 1942  6719 Cadillac I hunted around the USA and found 5 correct 16 inch wheels which I mounted Diamondback radial tires on.  For the 16 inch tires they use Cooper truck tires which are about the same size and look great.  I am almost done with my restoration and ready to put the 16's on the car and will give the 15 inch wheels and roller tires to anybody who wants to pick them up. They are near Tacoma Washington. 

I only know they are correct for 40' s  cars but if you want to have radius tires for driving and Bias for judging and live close to here send me a e-mail to    garygriffin@Q.com.   The old tires on them will go with them as we have a tire disposal problem here. 

[Dan LeBlanc]

I went back and looked at the judges manual and here are the two sections pertaining to tires:



The wording about the deduction that "may not be appropriate" seems to be the centre of the debate.  From attending the judges seminar and listening to the questions and answers, reading the manual, and reading it again, here is the interpretation of the MAY.  IF radial tires are used on a car intended to have bias ply tires, they MUST look like a bias ply and not have radial imprinted on the outer sidewall.  The size and appearance must be that of a bias ply.  That means you cannot just use any old radial.  What it means is that if you're running P235/75R/15 tires in place of an 8.20-15 tire, then the overall diameter, tread width, and appearance do not have the characteristics of the bias ply tire.  On the other hand, there are tires of RADIAL construction that LOOK EXACTLY like bias ply tires.  Therefore, because the appearance (size, tread with, pattern etc) are ceteris paribus to the bias ply, the only difference is the internal construction (keep in mind, we were told they could not have RADIAL imprinted on the outer wall that is visible), the deduction is NOT appropriate if those tires are used.  So, if you're running radials that don't look like bias plys, yes, you'll have a deduction.  If you're running radials that look like bias plys, you'll have no deduction.  That's why it says that a deduction may not be appropriate if radials are used.  There are qualifying criteria there that warrant a no deduction situation.

The when of tires are supposed to be used is indisputable as seen above also.  That tells you when to use tires.

As I say, this was quite a discussion at the judges meeting, the instruction was clear, and if you have ALL the facts (information given at the meeting, and the judges manual), yes, it is very clear.

The job of the exhibitor is to present the car in the most authentic way possible.  The easiest way to do that is to present it as outlined in the authenticity manual and leave the judges do the rest.

Rest assured, we were given proper instruction on the subject.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Perhaps an "exhibitor's seminar" with representatives from the judging committee would be helpful at future Grand Nationals.  That way, exibitors such as you and I can ask questions like this to inform ourselves.  It may also give you the bug to want to judge too, and there's always a shortage of judges.  From what I gather, this year's seminars at the GN were well received and I'm sure this topic would be a well attended seminar also.

I read somewhere that as part of displaying my car at Fall Hershey, there's an exhibitors seminar there as well at 9:30 on show day.  I think it's very helpful that the AACA does this so you know what to expect as part of the process.  I've never displayed a car for judging before, so I'll find this very enlightening.  Next year will be my first year displaying at a GN also and would love to attend a seminar like this.

[66 Eldo]

I went back and looked at the judges manual and here are the two sections pertaining to tires:



The wording about the deduction that "may not be appropriate" seems to be the centre of the debate.  From attending the judges seminar and listening to the questions and answers, reading the manual, and reading it again, here is the interpretation of the MAY.  IF radial tires are used on a car intended to have bias ply tires, they MUST look like a bias ply and not have radial imprinted on the outer sidewall.  The size and appearance must be that of a bias ply.  That means you cannot just use any old radial.  What it means is that if you're running P235/75R/15 tires in place of an 8.20-15 tire, then the overall diameter, tread width, and appearance do not have the characteristics of the bias ply tire.  On the other hand, there are tires of RADIAL construction that LOOK EXACTLY like bias ply tires. Therefore, because the appearance (size, tread with, pattern etc) are ceteris paribus to the bias ply, the only difference is the internal construction (keep in mind, we were told they could not have RADIAL imprinted on the outer wall that is visible), the deduction is NOT appropriate if those tires are used.  So, if you're running radials that don't look like bias plys, yes, you'll have a deduction.  If you're running radials that look like bias plys, you'll have no deduction.  That's why it says that a deduction may not be appropriate if radials are used.  There are qualifying criteria there that warrant a no deduction situation.

I have never seen a radial tire that looks like a bias ply. From my experience, it is the radial design that produces the inherent radial tire sidewall "bulge" so any radial tire should have that. If someone has an example of this kind of tire it would be great to find out who is making it.

[Jason Edge]

Dan's reply nailed it. For me it was very clear.

If you go back to my post the difference between say the 235/75/R15 vs the 8.20 x 15 is like night and day. This was also reiterated at the judges meeting. IF, and only IF, you have a radial tire that looks like the bias ply would you not deduct points. In the 235/75/R15 vs 8.20 x 15 example they are radically different.

Again, this is just one of four areas where you can receive authenticity deductions.  There are plenty of other areas where you can quickly add up many more authenticity deductions. Some of the most obvious when I judged where hose clamps, incorrect battery, battery cable terminals, brake booster/master cylinders, horns, wheel covers/wheels (not the tires), etc.

The majority of the deductions come from the other 36 categories for operation and condition.

The tires are just one of many areas that can be deducted. I remember on one car I judged I pinged it for incorrect power steering pump pulley, missing front license plate guard, and incorrect oil filler cap.  They had correct tires but lost more points under the hood than they would have for incorrect tires anyway. 

As I indicated in my write-up the operational categories are the easiest...does the horn work or doesn't it?  Do the windows go up and down or not?

The "condition" categories is probably more subjective than probably anything else. Take for instance Category 32 Plating - Exterior Forward of Cowl.  I've had going on 50 1963's and 1964's in my driveway since 1996 and know that you just don't see original chrome absolutely new show quality unless it has been stored in a vacuum or rechromed. Someone that has only seen new chrome might deduct 2 points for a nice smooth chrome bumper end with no rust, dings or dents, but with some typical weathering, whereas I might only deduct 1 point. This is where the dropping the lowest and highest scores comes in the play and helps level the judging and make it more fair.

Believe me you can show up with a super clean car and think because it "looks nice" you receive little or no deductions, but there's going to usually be someone on that team that knows the cars and can point dozens of other areas to deduct points other than the tires if you have a car with a lot of new non-original replacement parts.  Last year's primary winner in the 63/64 class had both incorrect rims and tires, but still won because the correctness of everything else; the fact the operational items worked, and overall condition of the different areas of the car.   

For those that missed my write-up of my judging experience this past year. here is the link I wrote and posted on the 63/64 Cadillac Site:
http://6364cadillac.ning.com/profiles/blogs/originaltires

[Makandriaco]

Maybe because the thread started a little different. Where to buy vs How they are judged. So maybe the judges do not feel the need to enter into a supply issue.

[R Schroeder]

From what I just read, Diamondback tire is coming out with tire that looks like a bias type tire.
They have the 16 inch now, and are coming out with the 15 inch later.
I just went through there catalog.
Roy

[n2caddies]

My 60 came with bias ply tires and on these farm equipment worn country roads and grooved concrete freeways I had a heck of a time keeping it from wandering. It was downright scary at times. This after a complete front end rebuild . Put a set of diamond backs on and it was like a new car. I for one happen to like the lower stance and have them on all my caddys. Regarding point deductions, I have been showing cars since the early 70's and for a long time was hung up on all the point stuff and though I still go the extra step to have things proper and original I found as ive gotten older I get the same enjoyment and thumbs up from other car people at local shows and without sweating the small stuff . I have made some compromises in the interest of safety and comfort . for goodness sakes who listens to AM radio anymore? I just accept the fact their never going to be 100 point cars but outside of the purests they are show winners to me. After all its about fun and enjoyment!
Randy