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Advance me some vacuum on that '57SDV!!

Started by Dave Burke, July 22, 2014, 12:28:43 PM

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Walter Youshock

AHHHHHH...  Never thought of it that way...  I'll have to try it.  I set timing and dwell then carb then recheck timing so the advance is disconnected and the port plugged.  If you don't get the distributor clamp tight enough, that steel advance line can put just enough pressure to move the distributor.  Had that happen once.  PING! PING! PING!

Isn't that what they called "Power Timing"?  Cadillac frowned upon the idea but we also had 100 octane leaded gas back then.  I think every tank of gas affects engine performance these days.

And Cadillac liked to fiddle with advances and distributor curves.  The 365 has different curves, advance and even distributor numbers for the 3 years of production.  Throw in the "Q" engine and you need a spreadsheet for the part numbers.
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

Dave Burke

Walter, you brought up a point that I was going to ask about: now I have just made a new steel line and it is not as flexible as I would like.  I know that later distributors ran a rubber vacuum line.  Do you think that it would affect anything if I made a section, or the entire thing, so that I could get more flexibility when setting the timing?  After all, I am more concerned with a well-running car.

Dave
1957 Sedan Deville
1963 Series 62 - Project LUX
1983 Maserati Quattroporte

"Who loves ya, Baby?" - Kojak

Dan LeBlanc

I was thinking the same thing when I did mine - that steel line doesn't make a lot of room for adjustment.  I tried it anyway and was able to get just enough movement out of the distributor to make the difference I was looking for.

Now if your engine has been rebuilt and the distributor is slightly off from the factory position, yes, you may need to make some modification.  I see no problem with cutting a small section of line out and replacing it with rubber.  They eliminated the screw on fitting at the vacuum advance beginning with the 1962 model year (along with the self-oiling distributor) likely for this reason.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Raymond919

Dan, may I interrupt this with my question? You mention the self-oiling distributor on the older models. My '49 has, I believe, one of those self-oiling distributors but I was unsure of the location of where to oil it. Is it inside that hallow 'shaft' after lifting off the rotor? I would guess it would take a finer oil such as a 10 weight and only a few drops.
Thanks,
Ray Schuman
#26141

Dan LeBlanc

I know that on my 61 there is a little cap that flips open like on the generator.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Jon S

Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on July 25, 2014, 04:55:50 PM
I know that on my 61 there is a little cap that flips open like on the generator.

Same on my 1958 - just add a few drops of 10W oil every few thousand miles and to the generator (2 oil ports).
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Walter Youshock

They used the steel line because of the heat.  Since it runs under the intake, there really wasn't any other way to do it.  That's also why it's about 6" longer than it needs to be and has that "S" bent into it--for slack.

At least they were able to use actual heater hose for the tranny cooler lines.  They finally got smart and put the cooler in the radiator for '58.
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

Raymond919

Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on July 25, 2014, 04:55:50 PM
I know that on my 61 there is a little cap that flips open like on the generator.

No external cap on my distributor but I have two on the generator as  you do. My shop manual says "Remove pipe plug and fill oil reservoir with 20W engine oil whenever distributor is removed for other service." (page 9)
It also says for the Assembly of Distributor (page 101), "Fill the distributor shaft oil reservoir after removing the 1/8" pipe plug.
I guess it's hidden inside the distributor somewhere near the points. I'll have to remove the cap and rotor and have a look around in there. Maybe under the condenser. It's such a difficult place to look, however. I'm not a contortionist.
Ray Schuman
#26141

Jon S

#28
OK, Since my Cadillac is in Summer storage, I decided to try the vacuum timing concept on my 1973 Lincoln.  Here are my results â€" in a word very positive! 

The first thing I did was attach the vacuum gauge to see my “baseline.”  I attached it to the intake manifold vacuum port that feeds the air cleaner snout butterfly.  The vacuum was at a steady 19”.  Next, I found in loosening my Distributor hold down was that my Distributor was totally frozen in place.  I tried lightly tapping it in both directions, but nothing.  I got out my trusty WD-20 and after soaking for a few seconds and re-tapping, it moved.  Fantastic!

I could hear the engine slow down and race slightly as I retarded and advanced the Distributor.  The vacuum ranged from 18.8 to 19.6.  I could not get any more than 19.6”.

I backed it off slightly to about 19.4 and it was even smoother than it had been (and it was very smooth before I started).

Now to the GOOD NEWS . . . I have rebuilt my Motorcraft 4300 maybe 5 times over the past 19 years trying to eliminate a pesty bog that comes and goes and always is preceded with a backfire in the carburetor WOT.  Well, guess what â€" despite repeated WOT from various speeds, no bog and no backfire!!!

I did notice a faint pinging, so I backed the Distributor off just a spec.  I took it for another test run and it still performs fantastically with an even fainter ping only on WOT.  I did add about ½ tank of 87 for the first time my last fill up, so I’m attributing the pinging to that.  I’ll run this tank down and re-fill with 93 before I make any further adjustment (if any).

Looking at the Distributor position, it isn’t in a very different position than it was before I started â€" just enough to eliminate that 39 year old bog I’ve had since 1975.  I will put a timing light on next cool day, but I doubt it is advanced much more than 2 degrees from where it was. 

I am both amazed and impressed with the results and the car never performed so well!

I'm anxious to try this on the Cadillac . . . maybe next cool day.

Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Dan LeBlanc

Glad it worked for you Jon. I know the result on the Fleetwood was nothing short of amazing. I had the first good run on the highway yesterday and I had a hard time staying under 75.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

R Schroeder

Here is a video on how to do the whole thing. Carb, and timing.
A little long but worth it.
Always set my cars up like this.
Roy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0uEMeDVxaA

35-709

Here is a good read and demonstration of how to use a vacuum gauge (and what it will show you) that I believe I posted here several years ago --- or maybe it was over at the MCLC. 

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm
There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental Illness".  Dave Barry.   I walk that line.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - now back home as of 9/2024
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Jon S

#32
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on July 22, 2014, 02:12:37 PM
I decided to throw my timing light away the other night and time my 61 with a vacuum gauge.  It's like a completely different car.  I've woken up a beast.  Before it felt sluggish and had an occasional ping under load.  I advanced the timing until I got the highest steady vacuum reading then backed off 1" of vacuum.  Tightened it down, took it for a drive.  No ping, fantastic acceleration, and the car is now anything but sluggish.  It feels more like my 04 deVille now.  It used to feel like my 1 ton with a 7.3 - took forever to move with any sort of speed.

Dan and others -

As noted above, I tried the vacuum gauge method to re-time my 1973 Lincoln since the Cadillac is away for the Summer (no AC).  I advanced the timing until I got the highest vacuum reading and also backed it off 1" and tightened the distributor bolt.  The car had more pep than ever; HOWEVER, I started experiencing intermittent stalling once I reached operating temperature, mostly at stop signs and red lights, but every now and then driving at a steady 30 MPH.  I didn't initially link the stalling to the timing change, but to vapor lock, bad coil, points, etc.  After changing all of these variables with no luck, I pulled out my trusty Timing Light.  The car was advanced 16 degrees with vacuum advance disconnected (as opposed to the 6 degrees by Shop Manual).  I brought it back to 10 degrees advanced and the stalling was eliminated and the car still has that "extra" pep.  Just thought I would mention this in case others have a mysterious stalling problem.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Dave Burke

Jon, your "timing" couldn't be better!  The '57, when timed with the vac gauge ends up being very advanced, and when cool or warming up runs great, but when the heat really comes on, she stalls - always gives me that horrific vision of being stalled at a stop light or in an intersection with no re-start! 

Since I have done enough work on the engine to satisfy me, I am concentrating on ignition timing.  I know that the car only has two timing marks, "A" and "C,"  but I fear that I am going to need to advance further than the "A" mark.  Somewhere there is a "sweet spot."  I'll find it, doggone it!

Best,

Dave
1957 Sedan Deville
1963 Series 62 - Project LUX
1983 Maserati Quattroporte

"Who loves ya, Baby?" - Kojak

Dan LeBlanc

Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on July 22, 2014, 02:50:48 PM
My timing light is buried somewhere, so I haven't checked to see where I'm at on it.  From what I read, however, it will be more advanced than stock.  Some engines you need to back off 2" of vaccum.  They say start with 1, road test, and back of more if necessary.


Sounds like your sweet spots are nearer to max vacuum less 2".  I got away with 1"
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Jon S

It is tricky - The car ran well at 1" back until the hot days . . . then I started experiencing intermittent stalling at low RPM (Stop Signs, Lights).  Finally attributed it to the advanced timing upon reading posts on the WEB including a Nova Board of all places!
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Dave Burke

Here's what I am thinking at present: the car is set at the "A" mark right now, according to the light.  I have that little hesitation when I hit the gas lightly that is not there when I really mash the pedal, which suggests to me that the motor needs to be further advanced.  So using the light and marks as reference only, I am going to periodically pull the air cleaner and advance by a couple of degrees at a time until it runs about where I want, without disconnecting the advance - but perhaps capping the vacuum manifold on the firewall as I do not use the wipers and I have never been able to get the washer pump to work, no matter what I have tried.  I think that I am pretty close to right, but alas, retarded just enough to make a difference.  Story of my life...

Dave
1957 Sedan Deville
1963 Series 62 - Project LUX
1983 Maserati Quattroporte

"Who loves ya, Baby?" - Kojak

Jon S

Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Dave Burke

And as I have learned, logic means jack-diddly when it comes to these old girls!

Dave
1957 Sedan Deville
1963 Series 62 - Project LUX
1983 Maserati Quattroporte

"Who loves ya, Baby?" - Kojak