FR12 vs R12 Charge size.

[V63]

Oops! Correction: R290

not R590

[Dan LeBlanc]

Sorry...

It's all good.  I learned a lot, though. 

Being here in Canada, I feel the pain of trying to be a DIY guy with no access to refrigerants.  Thankfully, if one of my modern cars needed refrigerant, a quick 20 minute drive across the border, pop the hood and do a top-up in the Wally World parking lot has always worked for me.

I have nothing that runs on R-12 yet, but, if I do, this is good stuff to know.

[Scot Minesinger]

If the US made it a law that you had to have a license to work with r134 or any refrigerant (I have a license) then I could quit my day job and work cars for a living. 

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Why Scott? 
Getting a "Mobile" license is simple. If the applicant knows anything about refrigeration/air conditioning then the test can be done in their sleep, and if they don't they probably should not be working on AC because it can be dangerous.  The text (reading for the test) is simply worded and concise.
In regards to "phase out" of 134a, that began in the EU with the 2011 production year.  No new cars could be sold there that use R-134a.

R-134a is on the way out like R-12, and the EPA phase out for new American production and sales is 2020, with a "sliding scale" of refrigerant production reduction similar to R-123. 
The Chinese have been dumping large quantities of 134a on the market place but my personal belief is that the "lesser quality" of this import will be self limiting due to the shortened life of the systems it is used in (my personal belief).
Don't fear, The replacement for R-134a, HFO-1234yf is in full production and the price has "plummeted" to about $900.00 per 10 pound cylinder,  This is supposedly a replacement for 134a, abeit with a 20% drop in system capacity, retrofit details being worked out, and of course about $15,000 worth of equipment specifically dedicated to this refrigerant.
Alternate refrigerants are available and will be for quite some time to replace R-12, but you do need a license and equipment for their use.  All the professional shops I have talked to are prepared for this so it will be no big deal in the marketplace for a couple of decades to come. 
So Scott, hank onto your "day job" for the next 25 years or so, the gold mine is still a dream.
Greg Surfas

[Scot Minesinger]

Greg,

Up here in VA near the Nation's Capital it is just not the case that people read (engineering, instructions and etc.) and have technical abilities.  Most guys around here would just commit suicide rather figure out what to do with a hammer and screw driver if you gave it to them.  People around here hire help to hang a picture (yes, measure, drive a nail, apply level and straighten).  I'm an extreme minority in the DC area in that I have a 4 year college education BSME and know how to use a wrench.  You may see this when you attend GN 2017.  The other examples I could site would shock you.

I hear you on r134 phasing out eventually, or rather sooner.  However right now it is ready available and a good alternative.  All of my daily drivers (4 cars from 2006-07) use it (got 3 teenagers all driving) use 134, so it is for me right now.  If r134 starts going up will buy a few 30lb tanks.  r134 was used from 1994 until at least 2009 (15 years), the average car is 11 years old in America.  Very few cars were made without ac in 1994.  Accordingly with say 15 million cars purchased annually during this 15 year period, wow there has got to be way over a 100 million r134 cars on the road now.  I just don't see it phasing out for at least another five to ten years.

Once it gets phased out will have to figure out what to do, maybe go back to r12 on my classics (my 2006-7 daily drivers will be long gone)?  Not sure.  I will start saving my pennies to buy an r12 devoted machine and a supply of r12.

[mikanystrom]

The crazy thing is that 134a continues to be legal for all sorts of other uses (including freeze sprays, that are MEANT to be released into the atmosphere!!)

Quoting from the Federal Register, acceptable uses include:

As of July 20, 2016: Cleaning products for removal of
grease, flux and other soils from electrical equipment;
refrigerant flushes; products for sensitivity testing of
smoke detectors; lubricants and freeze sprays for electrical
equipment or electronics; sprays for aircraft
maintenance; sprays containing corrosion preventive
compounds used in the maintenance of aircraft, electrical
equipment or electronics, or military equipment;
pesticides for use near electrical wires...


https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2015-07-20/pdf/2015-17066.pdf

See page 42881...

[Scot Minesinger]

Mika,

I agree with you 100%.  However....

I'm sorry were you looking for logic from our government?  If you follow every law, rule, way people act, church and etc., except with family and friends hopefully, it is all about the money.  I was in this industry when R12 started being phased out and it was quite apparent.  Except for Greg, have not heard anything about r134 phasing out.  Today at Auto parts stores, shelves were full of the stuff by various brands.

This phase out while allowing other uses that release it to atmosphere has got to do with money mainly.  If ever a perfect refrigerant was developed like say water, it would hurt the economy (no regulation, control of it and etc.) and there would be some way to eventually outlaw it for some reason - making too much rain or something.

[Glen]

Back in the 70’s I recall a guy in Florida invented a refrigerant-less A/C.  It compressed the air; cooled it than released it into the cab of the car.  The big problem was the compressor was rather large.  Wonder what happened to that idea.  It was written up in a Popular Mechanics or similar magazine.      Such a machine would fix the environmental issue.   

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Glen,
That's a version of the air cycle that ALL our commercial jet air craft use.
Greg Surfas