6v Turn signal problem

[39LaSalleDriver]

Another issue I am having with my 39 LaSalle are the turn signals that I have installed.

Since my 39 didn't come with turn signals, I determined to add some as well as making improvements to the running and brake lights. I made new can inserts which could hold two bayonet sockets in the tail light buckets for running/stop/turn signals, and decided to wire them up with LED bulbs. I took the Honda motorcycle lamps a previous owner had mounted on the front bumper for what I presume to be fog lights and mounted them behind the side grills to use as hidden turn lamps in front. These are the type of bulbs I picked up for the rear buckets:

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/led-vehicle-replacement-bulbs/1157-led-bulb-dual-function-19-led-forward-firing-cluster-bay15d-retrofit-car-classic-car-bulbs/508/

I bought the ones with red LEDs and they work fantastic for the running and stop lights! Immensely brighter than the incandescents and I highly recommend them to anyone who is concerned about being seen. The problem is with the turn signals. Knowing I would need a LED compatible relay, I purchased one of these https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/products/6v-electronic-indicator-flasher-relay-classic-car-with-oe-click-x-l-p-2-3-pin

I don't have any association with any of these companies, I just researched and came up with these suppliers for my needs though there may be others.

After I finally figured out what I was doing, I got my turn signals all wired up with a single pole/double throw switch under the dash and they work great...as long as the engine isn't running. 

Start the engine, and the turn signals start fluttering intermittently (sometimes not coming on at all). The tail and stop lights work fine. I went back and swapped out the bulbs and relay for "standard" turn signal ones but I have the same problem. So I know the LED system isn't the problem, yet can't understand why the turn signals do this, but not the stop/tail lights.

Any electrical gurus have any thoughts about what might be going on. I am a real turn signal nut, and don't like not having turn signals available for usage so I really need to get this sorted out.

[Steve Passmore]

Where did you take your power supply from?  Stop and tail would be on different circuits.

[J. Gomez]

Jon,

You did not stated as how you wired the new lights front and rear either as independent of any other path e.g. brake light and what other piece have you added to the new setup e.g. turn signal switch add-on and a diagram on how you made the new connections?

If you added one of the steering column turn signal switch e.g. signal-stat type it should had include the wiring to make the new connections. As with any older turn signal switch in the neutral the switch sets a path for both brake lights, when the switch is moved to either right or left it will open the path from the brake light and make the new path for the turn signal flasher to the pilot lights and to both front and rear lamps.

It would be hard to give you more troubleshooting details without knowing how you setup your wiring with all the pieces.

I did found a set of instructions on the old signal-stat 900 wiring at the HAMB in case you have that one setup so here are they for reference.

[39LaSalleDriver]

Thanks Steve. That's an angle I hadn't considered.

When I had the front harness made up, I had them add in provisions for front turn signals. I made the rear harness myself as I didn't want to replace the headliner at this time to "do it right", and it was simple enough to make up. The turn signals I have wired through a small fuse block hidden under the dash and from there it wires directly to the ignition switch.

The tail lights connect to the front harness at terminal #5 on the headlight switch, and the stop lights connect to the stop light switch as it should.

Any suggestions as to where I possibly should tie the turn signals into besides the ignition switch?


Mr. Gomez, here is a schematic I made when setting up my system. I did not want to use a column mounted aftermarket turn signal as I find them a bit ugly.

[las39]

LED lamps and relays don't like the rippled voltage that comes from the mechanical regulator. via ammeter and ignition switch. Voltage has be a clean DC.
Connect a fused lead direct from the battery.

[J. Gomez]

Jon,

Assuming your electronic flasher is the 2-prong type and you have a good 6V source from the ignition switch when the engine is running and both rear and front lights are independent as shown, everything should work. The electronic flasher would need a ground source for its electronics so it would only switched the 6V for the lamps.

Now if you have the 3-prong type and the lamps (in your drawing the toggle switch) is connected to the “L” terminal at the flasher, I’m not sure if it would also need to have the “P” pilot lights (which are the dash cluster indicators) also connected to work. I know the thermos flasher does need the “P” connected to work.

Not sure if the 3-prong can be converted to 2-prong and bypass the “P” terminal.

Just for a test, if you can find a second source for a good 6V outside from the ignition switch and hook the flasher to that source when the engine is running to see if the same issue persist. Possible there is a load at the switch while the engine is running causing the voltage to drop below the 6V required for the flasher.  Just a while guess.

[Steve Passmore]

Do as Mo suggested and run a temporary wire directly from your battery to test his theory. Connect it to the supply for indicators at the fusebox.

[bcroe]

That sounds like a very slick conversion, with the dual socket rear buckets
and hidden fronts.  LEDs are probably more sensitive to voltage esp for a
6V system, but I would expect them to work better with somewhat elevated
voltage with the generator operating. 

Checking voltages everywhere might show something, and direct battery
connection should add stability.  I am wondering if the problem is the
bulbs or the flasher?  Putting in non LED components might be worth a
test.  Another is take out the flasher and short the path through to one
side, to see if it lights without flutter.  Bruce Roe

[Tom Beaver]

Have you looked at the following turn signal switch?

www.turnswitch.com

It might make the wiring easier and it works with LED bulbs.

Tom Beaver

[39LaSalleDriver]

LED lamps and relays don't like the rippled voltage that comes from the mechanical regulator. via ammeter and ignition switch. Voltage has be a clean DC.
Connect a fused lead direct from the battery.

Thanks for the hint. I'll try that in the next few days and see if it solves my problem.

[/quote]
Assuming your electronic flasher is the 2-prong type and you have a good 6V source from the ignition switch when the engine is running and both rear and front lights are independent as shown, everything should work. The electronic flasher would need a ground source for its electronics so it would only switched the 6V for the lamps.

Now if you have the 3-prong type and the lamps (in your drawing the toggle switch) is connected to the “L” terminal at the flasher, I’m not sure if it would also need to have the “P” pilot lights (which are the dash cluster indicators) also connected to work. I know the thermos flasher does need the “P” connected to work.
[/quote]

Mine is the 3 prong type with a pigtail for grounding (which I did to the frame). So far as I can tell the "P" doesn't need to be connected, which, even if it did, I don't have anything to connect it to.

[/quote]
That sounds like a very slick conversion, with the dual socket rear buckets
and hidden fronts.  LEDs are probably more sensitive to voltage esp for a
6V system, but I would expect them to work better with somewhat elevated
voltage with the generator operating.

Checking voltages everywhere might show something, and direct battery
connection should add stability.  I am wondering if the problem is the
bulbs or the flasher?  Putting in non LED components might be worth a
test.  Another is take out the flasher and short the path through to one
side, to see if it lights without flutter.
[/quote]

Thanks. My inspiration can be found here. I took this guys advice and modified it to fit my own needs.

http://forums.aaca.org/topic/298591-led-ftw/

My setup is not overly fancy, but works very well and is completely hidden. I mounted the sockets into a common soup can!    Using tin snips I cut tabs around the edges to catch the bucket and all is hidden within the bucket perfectly. I have to say I am VERY pleased with the performance of my tail/stop lights now. I think if I can get the turn signals straightened out, that will work very well to. I got my idea on mounting the front lights behind the side grills from our own Fred Zwicker. Really cleans up the bumper which I thought looked pretty chintzy with motorcycle turn signals mounted to it.

I did try putting incandescents back in the sockets and reinstalling a standard relay flasher but still couldn't get it to work so I went back to the LED setup.

I have plugged and unplugged so many different things and combinations, I can't even say anymore what did or didn't work. I may need to start all over again from scratch with a fresh perspective.


[/quote]
Have you looked at the following turn signal switch?

www.turnswitch.com

It might make the wiring easier and it works with LED bulbs.
[/quote]

I did before I started down the path I'm on now. Something about them just doesn't appeal to me. Ultimately, I may end up having to go this route even though I've spent so much time, money, and grief on the setup I have now. I have to believe that this WILL work someway, somehow. I've come so close, but final success has thus far been elusive. Thanks for the comments fellows, I'll update my progress in a few days when I can test some of this out.

[bcroe]

As mentioned in the article you cited, some combinations of flashers
and LEDs don't work, have seen that here.  That is why I suggested
first just remove the flasher and jumper it across to see if it lights
properly without a flasher.  good luck, Bruce Roe

[39LaSalleDriver]

Well, I've gone back and checked everything. Wires, grounds, fuses, switch, bulbs...everything is in order. I've got to believe that the relays (one LED and the other incandescent) that I have, I managed to fry somehow. The incandescent came with the car and looks a bit raggedy, so I have no idea what condition it was in before I even started. The LED one I bought new and worked at one point a couple of weeks ago with the engine off. I can't even get it to do that now even though it still "ticks". I have been testing my system as recommended by running a jumper direct from the battery.

So, I have ordered new relays (both an LED version and an incandescent) to see what will happen. Had to order online as auto parts stores really stink around here.    I'll update when I get the new relays and see what happens.