1960s 68 DeVille Window Motor - Removal and Restoration

[DeVille68]

Hello everybody,

As you might remember, I just recently bought a 68 Cadillac DeVille Convertible. (See this topic: http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=120638.0)

Now the car is in winter-storage and I started to restore my wood veneer. Removed the passenger side door panel, and peeled away the old lacquer. Sanded the veneer with 180 and then 240. Looks beautiful now. Next I will add a protective coating.

Since the door panel is off, I thought it'll be a good idea to also restore my window motor. Since the passenger side motor is a little slow.

I checked my service manuals and on page 6-26/27 of the fisher body manual they suggest to drill three holes to access the mounting screws of the window motor.
I don't like to drill holes in my door!

My question: Is there another way to remove the window motor from the door?
Maybe also remove the window? (have to replace the weatherstrips anyway).
What are the important steps?


The actual restoration of the window motor is covered in detail in several topics. So should not be too hard. Well let's see.

Below are some pictures.

Thanks a lot for your help!

Kind regards,
Nicolas

[Ralph Messina CLC 4937]

Nicolas,

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO REMOVE THE MOTOR WITHOUT SECURING THE REGULATOR ARM !

The door configuration appears similar to a ’66. Check your shop manual for “Window Regulator”. It will explain how to position the window to remove the glass. Once the glass has been removed, the regulator and motor can be removed as a unit by taking the four bolts out that hold the regulator mounting plate to the door. Once on the work bench, you must drill a ¼" hole through the regulator mounting plate and the large black gear and put a 1/4" bolt and nut through the hole. This will lock the regulator arm preventing it from snapping violently when you release the motor. The arm has a powerful assist spring to help raise the window and it’s not something you want to try and control by hand. With the regulator arm locked, you can safely remove the three bolts holding the motor to the regulator mounting plate.

HTH,
Ralph

[cadillactim]

Nicholas

I've taken out well over a hundred of window motors, and here's the way I do them without doing any drilling:

1. If the window operates, lower it halfway.
2. Remove the bolts that hold the regulator to the door.
3. Remove the short guide piece (2 bolts) from the door that one of the rollers slide in.
4. Window assembly will "drop" now.  Pull up on door glass and slide the other regulator roller out of the door glass channel.
5. Remove regulator/motor assembly out of opening in door. Gently lower door glass until it stops.

Once regulator/motor out, lay them on the ground with the motor bots up.  Loosen all three motor bolts. Get a big screwdriver or pry bar.  Then put your foot on the motor where it meets the regulator.

Remove the three bolts (regulator spring is not going to fly off). Put pressure on the regulator and motor with your foot and take the pry bar or screwdriver and pry the motor away from the regulator (pry at the motor gear, otherwise the motor will come off and the gear will still be there. If that happens, just take motor away, reapply foot pressure and pry gear away).

Your foot pressure will keep the spring from moving. Once the motor is off of the regulator, loosen your foot pressure and regulator will gently "unwind."

This is also a good time to clean and relubricate the regulator and rollers.  Place the short end's edge on the ground, and use the long end as a lever and rock the regulator back and forth to make sure it moves freely. Don't remove the spring.

To reinstall the motor, position the motor as close to the holes as possible. Then take the long end of the regulator and rock the assembly until the motor gear will slide into position (having an assistant helps). Try not the have the big gear on the regulator at the end. The closer to the middle the better.

Then install regulator/motor back into door, reversing steps above. You will need to adjust the regulator and short guide. 

Don't be afraid of the window spring, just respect it.

Tim

[Scot Minesinger]

Often a slow power window is due to impediments to motions, such as track filled with dirt, missing lubrication, felt seals replaced with rubber, bad rubber seals and the like.  make sure that is all good, add power and see if it improves.  Than you might not have to remove the motor.

[Jason Edge]

Often the top gear that engages the regulator is embedded in dried up grease where it fits into the motor. If you simply pull this top gear out, clean out the dried up old grease, and liberally apply hi pressure wheel bearing grease (what we call cup grease in my neck of the woods), it will often bring them back to life.

On the removal of regulators and motors, Tim is correct! I've parted many 63's and 64's and I remove as Tim Indicated and use the foot pressure technique. I will add that I have had windows stuck in the up and down position and have still been able to roll the top regulator rollers out of the window sash channel.  On some body styles (and depending on time of production) the lower sash channel cam is attached to the window lower sash assembly via Phillips screws and have removed those screws to assist in detaching the window assembly from the regulator and motor assembly.

Reading Tim's "stand on the regulator & motor assembly" and prying the motor off the regulator made me smile as that is exactly the way I do it.  We have a lot of reference illustrations from the shop manuals on the 63/64 site. I just added some door illustrations at this link: http://6364cadillac.ning.com/photo/albums/door-assembly-illustrations

[DeVille68]

Hello,

Thanks a lot for your responses! Much appreciated.

So, if I understand correctly the procedure Tim mentioned leaves the glass in place and just removes the regulator and motor as an assembly through the opening.

I might first try this approach and only if I get stuck I'll remove the glass as well.

The foot approach sounds promising! I keep you updated, and might write a little about the restoration for others to use.

Kind regards,
Nicolas

[cadillactim]

Nicholas

Just remember to hold of the door glass when you slide the regulator roller out so the glass doesn't suddenly drop down on you.  Once the regulator/motor is out then you can gently slide the glass down.  You don't have to remove the glass this way. Just take your time.

Tim

[steve eldridge]

Yeah same with 78 eldo, i had a dead motor and replaced by just unbolting glass and supporting and  then drill out  4 door rivets. i got the motor and regulator out thru the access hole and then put a bolt and nut in frame to hold gear when unbolting dead old motor. Heavy welders gloves and my trusty 50 lb vise held on tight to the regulator and spring. Not much drama with spring. After cleaning out that sticky heavy grease roller wheels were in good shape. Just lubed up and bolted back into door. now window FLIES up and down with new motor and fresh grease, so bad news i have to do other door to get same nice, clean easy window motion. Such a big difference between sticky old grease and fresh stuff. This job is well worth it every time u move windows, it makes u smile! Don't forget to vacuum out dirt at bottom of door  and lube up lock and door catch while every thing is open. steve eldridge 78 eldo

[Raymond919]

Back in the 70s, I replaced the window motor in my '68 convertible. I got many warnings about the spring which helps the motor and holds the glass up. I went ahead and did the job anyway since when you're young you have no fear (or are just stupid). The spring is strong enough that if it slips, it will take your finger off. I found that I could insert a couple thick screwdrivers into a couple holes in the door to block and hold the window and mechanism so it wouldn't 'unload' and hurt me. I let the window down against the screwdriver.

If you're the least bit unsure or uneasy about it, why not ask some local mechanic or shop if they'd do the actual motor replacement and you'll 'prep' it for them. You'll remove the armrest and door panel and get it all ready for them to remove and replace the motor. You'll then finish off by replacing the trim when they're done. This would save you from a bad experience and would cost you less since you do part of the work yourself.

[DeVille68]

Hello,

thanks again for your useful explanations. It made the removal real easy.
I followed the steps mentioned above, but I removed the window glass from the door, since the glass is loose and I needed to replace the outer weatherstrip anyway.
Then just push the whole assembly out of the upper opening.  And yes, this huge window regulator assembly goes through the opening! :-D

I separated the motor from the regular, not by the mentioned food method, but instead I just put a big screw/wing nut through a opening. (see attached picture). These two holes are not necessarily aligned - I just was lucky enough.
Then, I separated the gear from the motor, cleaned everything, painted the gear with some zinc spray.
Next grease everything and put back together.
Finally, I did a test run. I used a starting-help-tool (its like a normal 12V battery) because the motor needs a lot of current.
Test was successful. All movements are smooth and fast.

Next, I will paint the inside of the door with some POR 15 to protect the metal from rust. Some parts of my door have surface rust.
The rubber protecting the wires between door and instrument panel needs to be replaced also.

Before I put the window back in, I also replace the window run channel.
I'll keep you updated.


Kind regards,
Nicolas

[Ralph Messina CLC 4937]

Nicolas,

Happy that it worked out for you. The screwdriver you used serves the same function as drilling a hole and using a bolt. I have many Cadillac technicians friends with  lots of short cuts. Tim and Jason's comments were a valid way to go, but I hesitate to suggest the short cut methods to someone on a Forum as I don't know their level of experience or skills.

Ralph

[DeVille68]

Hello everybody,

So today I finally installed the window motor and regulator assembly along with the window. (door passenger side)

First, I installed new outer belt-line weatherstrips.  Mine are from Steele, which are made by PUI Interiors. Sadly no "exact" reproduction is available, so the little metal taps do not line up perfectly, some are reversed in their functioning (and you need to cut it to fit). Nevertheless, the overall fit is quite good and way better than any old leaky weatherstrip (as were mine).

Secondly, I painted the inside of the door with POR-15, since it was all rusty (surface rust) from the leaking weatherstrip. Don't know if that was a good idea, but in any case I will put "Mike-Sanders" into all the doors and chassis parts that are closed.

Thirdly, I replaced the window door conduit and fixed the power wire running inside.

Then I tried to install the motor along with the window. But I just couldn't got the rollers into their cams. After an eternity of wiggling and almost breaking the glass, I gave up and read the manual again. So I made the mistake of not loosening or removing the "Inner Panel Cam Attaching Bolts" and Cam.

So here is a little procedure that worked for me:
1.) Remove the "Inner Panel Cam Attaching Bolts" and Cam (number 2 in figure below). (I mean take this guide-rail out of the door.)
2.) Then insert the motor and regulator assembly which should be at a half up window position.
3.) Slide the window in and make sure the regular does not come into its way. Slide the window with the front side first, then the rest. The window should be completely inside the door. Someone should hold the window in a half up position. So now you can easily insert the two rollers of the regulator into the cam attached to the window. Since the regular is not jet attached to anything you can move it around easily (by hand).
4.) Once you have the two rollers in place (cam on glass) you need to attach the regulator to the door.
5.) After that you can reattach the "Window Lower sash channel to rear guide plate bolts" (number 1 in figure blow).
6.) Now you can reattach your "Inner Panel Cam" (the one you removed in step 1) and you can very easily just slide it onto the third roller and bolt it to the door. You may need to move the window up or down.
7.) Plug in the power and you should be able to operate the window.
8.) Now starts the hard part - adjusting the window! :-)

After an hour I am still adjusting! Needed to move the window glass up by loosen the "Glass to sash channel bolts" and then pulling on the glass such that it aligned with the roof rail weatherstrip. Now I still need to adjust the "Inner Panel Cam" to make the window go up and down in parallel to the belt-line.

And don't forget to lubricate. My window now moves fast again.


So below are two figures out of my  Body by Fisher Manual for 1968. (Picture of the door is for all B-C Convertibles

Gruss
Nicolas

[76eldo]

If the motor works just clean the track, rollers, gear, and relubricate with white lithium grease.

You might be amazed at the results m

[DeVille68]

Oke, so the biggest problem now was (or is) with the window adjustment. I just could not get the window properly adjusted. The window was in the back of the door too short to reach the roof rail weatherstrip. So I had to loosen up the three bolts (glass to sash channel bolts) to be able to pull on the glass such that it was able to reach the roof rail weatherstrip.

But then the window would not properly move to the top position, something was blocking just at the last inch or so.
It took a while until I realized that the rubber between the sash channel (metal structure the glass bolts to) and the glass was to thick, thus the whole assembly "crashed" with the chrome molding at the top.

Below is a picture of my window, where you can see the rubber that is "beat-up" and some part is missing. (on the back end of the glass the rubber was glued on or something like that. It is thicker than 3mm (at least) )

So, I had to remove the whole window again and I am now searching for the so called: "Lower Sash Channel Lower Outer Filler"
(see pdf above)
I also found other names for it, like "sash channel filler" or "glass setting tape"
Steele Rubber sells this one (and different versions of it) : http://steelerubber.com/search?q=channel+filler#sash-channel-filler-strip-70-1115-57
Or Honest Charley sells the glass setting tape:  http://www.honestcharley.com/hot-rod-parts/windshields-windows-and-glass/glass-setting-tape.html


Which one would you use? Do I need to glue these to the window? Or will they be kept in place just by the friction of the metal vs. glass?

Since I need to put the window and door back together in the next two days  (first meeting on Friday) I need a quick solution.

What rubber is this stuff made of? What could I use as a quick solution?
What are to correct dimensions, or more precise what is the correct width of the rubber strip?

Thanks a lot for your answers.

Kind regards,
Nicolas

[MobAudio]

Hello everyone. I know this is an old post, but I'm wondering if I can get a little help.  I have a '66 Sedan DeVille that seems to have a bad drivers window motor.  I have checked the switch and have jumped power to the motor just in case and still nothing. There are butt connectors in the wires leading to the motor that make me think it has been replaced before (I did also try jumping the motor after the connectors also).  The issue that I have is that the window is stuck in the up position.  I have read that there is a way to remove the motor without removing the whole regulator assembly but three holes need to be drilled.  Does anyone have the locations for those holes?  I can see what looks like 2 of the bolts holding the motor on but not the third.

Thank you in advance for any advise.