Any years ZDDP in oil

[Cadman-iac]

  Very good advice, and from what you guys have said and what I've been reading, I think I'm already using some of the best oils in my vehicles.
I honestly would be using the 15w50 Mobil 1 in everything, I don't just because of oil consumption and leakage in my trucks.
And like I mentioned earlier, I've had really good luck with it in another car I drove 200 miles a day to and from work. At over 400k I finally switched vehicles, but not because of the engine.  The rest of the car was just wearing out.
For the trucks, I use the Rotella T 15w40, and it gets changed every 2500 miles by the odometer. It's just easier that way, no trying to figure out what the last change mileage was.
And the Mobil 1 is changed every 5000 miles by the odometer. So far this has worked well for me, I only asked the question about ZDDP because the subject has come up often lately and it made me wonder if I was using the right oil and if there was a better option out there.

The only thing that I have been adding to anything is that Lucas oil stabilizer in an effort to limit the oil usage and leakage in my main truck.
I still haven't found out if that stuff has any ZDDP in it. I have noticed that it has slowed the oil consumption somewhat, but the leakage doesn't seem to have been affected much.
All of what we drive is either approaching 200k or exceeded it, so I don't expect miracles from the oil I use. I just want to get the most out of what is left in what I have.
The only exception is my '56 and the 472 that's going in it. I want to get the best oil I can for it as I absolutely do not want to have to take the car apart again to repair or replace the engine. Not just because it's a real pain, (physically for me), but also because of how hard it is to find good parts now.

I understand a little more about these additives after some research and your replies to my questions, and I want to say thank you to everyone who has responded here, your input is greatly appreciated. I feel better about my choice of oils now.
I hope this thread will help answer questions others may have as well. I know it's not a very thorough review, if that's the right term for this, but maybe someone else can get something out of it.

Happy motoring to all.

    Rick

 PS: I do remember using the GM EOS years ago in that engine that I ran for over 400k, and it probably contributed to the longevity of that engine. I used regular oil in it for about 25k miles before switching to the Mobil 1. That was around 1989. I stopped the EOS when I switched to the Mobil 1, and I guess that was a good thing. One day I'm going to tear down that engine and check just how much wear it has, but it's still sitting in the car in back of the garage. I don't have the room to do that until I build a new shop, which at the rate things are going, may be never.

[Daryl Chesterman]

This link doesn't seem to be working correctly. I can go to the site, but it only gives a brief overview, when you get to the bottom, there is a button to expand it, but it doesn't work.
 The video is just a Fram promotional tool, it doesn't mention any other manufacturer.
 Can you post the list maybe, or find a different link for it. I'd like to look at it if possible.
 Thanks for posting.

Richard, the link works for me when I clicked on it in my post in this forum.  Did you scroll down past the Fram video?
All of the major filter brands are listed in alphabetical order, telling who manufactures it and where.  If you are using a phone, that might be the problem—I am using a desktop computer.

P. S.  Sometimes I get the button that says "Click to expand the article", and sometimes it loads the whole article???  I don't know what is going on with that!

Daryl Chesterman

[Cadman-iac]

  Yes, I can scroll down a short way before I get a pop up button to expand it, whatever it is, but when I hit the button, it just takes me back to the top of the site where the Fram video is. Not sure what else to do here.
 I tried the video, thinking it would lead me to more, but it's just on Fram filters, no other link or reference to anything else.

[Cadman-iac]

  Here's a screen shot from the site. The button says "expand to show full article", but does nothing but bring you back to the top.



 This is as far down as I can get.

[Lexi]

Keep in mind that what we refer to as ZDDP was not a thing prior to WWII and was developed to address the higher performance engines developed for the war (primarily aviation engines) that went to higher compression ratios, higher lift cams, stronger valve springs and sometimes higher rpms. The loads on the flat tappet interface went up tremendously and required some additives to the oils to reduce the wear that was seen. Prewar engines didn't have that highly loaded sliding interface and the oils of the day provided the needed protection. Today's oils are far superior and have ZDDP in their formulation which provides protection for flat tappet cams in post war engines with that higher loading. All of the SAE testing showed that the reduced levels in today's oil is still enough to protect modern flat tappet engines. Really high performance race engines do require a bit higher level although most of them run roller cam followers so it's a moot point.

If you want to argue that your built 1966 GTO with 11:1 compression needs a higher level of ZDDP than standard oils meeting API requirements (which all still have ZDDP) fine - I wouldn't argue. But to suggest that my 1939 LaSalle need specially formulated oils in it isn't even worth discussing. It's just not true.

Again, they won't cause any issues but why buy something you don't need?

Scott, that makes sense. My car is post war '50s, so higher compression engine. Did not consider such for the pre-war engines. I have another question which you just might be the guy to answer. Do Lead Substitutes as added to gasoline, actually do any good? Mixed reviews on the net. My personal experience with 2 different 1950s engines is when added, both engines ran noticeably quieter. Not that there was any issues with the valve train in either prior to using the additive; just made for a more quiet operation. I tentatively concluded that there might be a slight dampening effect on the valves, which the Lead Substitute is supposed to provide. So I figured can't be a bad thing. Even noticed this result in my recently rebuilt 365 V8. Thanks. Even should my tentative conclusion prove correct, could there be a down side? Thanks. Clay/Lexi

[LaSalle5019]

Scott, that makes sense. My car is post war '50s, so higher compression engine. Did not consider such for the pre-war engines. I have another question which you just might be the guy to answer. Do Lead Substitutes as added to gasoline, actually do any good? Mixed reviews on the net. My personal experience with 2 different 1950s engines is when added, both engines ran noticeably quieter. Not that there was any issues with the valve train in either prior to using the additive; just made for a more quiet operation. I tentatively concluded that there might be a slight dampening effect on the valves, which the Lead Substitute is supposed to provide. So I figured can't be a bad thing. Even noticed this result in my recently rebuilt 365 V8. Thanks. Even should my tentative conclusion prove correct, could there be a down side? Thanks. Clay/Lexi

Well, nothing beats tetraethyl lead which is too toxic to put in those additives. I don't put any lead substitutes in my cars. Similar to oil additives, TEL was added to deal with high performance high compression engines for both pre-ignition and micro welding of the valve seats due to really high cylinder pressures, temperatures and poppet valve seat pressures. Not really an issue unless you have a high performance engine. Certainly not needed in your car or my 1968 Tempest. I don't see a downside of using it though. For any performance engine, I just add a little AvGas to premium fuel. AvGas still has the good stuff (for now).

[Lexi]

Hmmmm... Oddly enough just based on an auditory assessment I have noted a net gain, (or more), in using it as if there is added cushion to the valve seats (using layman's terminology). I have little doubt it is doing something and apparently what it is advertised to do. Dumbing it down to a Three Stooges level (me) I naturally fiqured less noise means less wear somewhere especially in the drive train. As few things are offered in life without a consequence, I also figured there might be a downside, but "Mom's the word" seems to be the net's response on this. Reassuring to learn that you think is probably harmless. The big shock for me was after about a year of driving my rebuilt 365 V8 with zinc fortified oil changes every 500 - 750 miles, I wanted to ensure all particulate matter from the re-build was banished. The first time I used the lead substitute in the re-built engine there was a sudden audible difference when added. A "quiet" engine suddenly became even more quiet. As a sidebar, the engine was rebuilt by a proffessional engine rebuilding machine shop that has been in the business since 1964. No expenses were spared. I have little doubt that it was responsible for making an already reasonably operating re-built engine run even more quiet. I used Canadian Tire Corporation's "Certified" brand lead substitute (probably re-branded and not sure of manufacturer). I have also used Motor Medic (hope I got the name right), lead substitute product with the same positive results. I would be interested in learning of other member's experience with such products. Clay/Lexi

[Daryl Chesterman]

Richard, try a Google search for "Which oil filters are made in the United States".  I just did it on my Android phone and the website I posted was the first search result shown.  It even had a thumbnail of the Baldwin filter and US flag that are part of the opening page of the website.

Daryl Chesterman

[Cadman-iac]

I'll give that a try then. Thanks.

Ok, that worked, thanks for the tip. They are pretty much just generalizing though, no real hard facts, with a disclaimer that says "as of the time of this article", but that's to be expected I guess.
 At least we don't have to worry about Chinese filters being the only thing available for a few months anyway.

 Rick
 

[scotth3886]

I used the Lucas hot rod / classic car oil until last year and then switched to the Valvoline VR1.  On my GM brand 'P' old cars it provides me with better hot idle oil pressure.  I also switched the 66 Fleetwood for the same reason given that we all know that we can have oil pressure issues with the 429.   And I use Wix oil filters in all of them.

[Chopper1942]

Lexi, your engine may be quieter when using a lead additive. Tetraethyl lead was used in gasoline to increase the octane and reduce pre-ignintion and detonation. It also prevents valve seat erosion and exhaust valve wear. The only drawback is it will create "carbon buildup" on the exhaust valves over time and it poisons catalytic converters. If you don't have a Cat on your car, no worries. I don't think the EPA will come and take a sample of your fuel.

Valve seat erosion was addressed when unleaded fuels were introduced by using stellite exhaust valves and either induction harded valve seats or hardened insert seats. They will still erode. I had am E350 Ford van with 5.4 L engine that on a trip back from the east coast started to miss leaving the Indiana toll booth on 80. When I got home, I checked the ignition system and then checked the compression, Zero compression on 1 cyl and low on several others. Pulled the valve covers and saw several exhaust valve spring heights greater than the intake valve spring heights. Pulled the heads and the seats were worn so bad, that the valves were being held open when the cam was on its base circle. This vehicle had stellite exhaust valves and induction hardened seats. I had to have new hardened valve seats installed and new stellite valves.  A little tetraethyl lead sure would have prevented this, but the Cat would not have liked it.

Ethyl gasoline was required in many vehicle way before 10:1-12.5:1 compression ratios were introduced in the 60's.

Cadman-iac

If you have oil leakage and/or oil consumption with synthetic oil, you will have it with paraffin based crude oil stock based oils. When the synthetic oils were first introduced, there were somme issues with seal compatabilty. Those issues have been resolved.

As far as zinc, phosphorus, and ZZDP, it's interesting that the valve spring pressures and compression ratios on the old L head engines are comparable to those on many OHV engines in the 50's, 60's, & 70's that needed it to prevent camshaft failures.

It's our option to be proactive to prevent failures or reactive and repair the failures.

[Lexi]

Hi Larry. Thank you for the input, but I am not using a lead additive. It is a lead substitute. Years ago I seem to recall that you could buy a Tetraethyl lead product in a bottle for our cars, but that changed and the product became a "lead substitute" many years ago. Will have a look at the ingredients, if any listed on the bottle, but I am inclined to think that there is no lead in it., (though I could be wrong). Something else I believe has taken it's place. Would like to know what the lead was subsituted with! Bit of a mystery. Clay/Lexi

[Chopper1942]

Some of the additives have lead in them. Usually, they specify for off road use only; i.e. racing. Others are listed as lead substitutes and can be used on the streets depending where you live.

Today, lead substitutes use a variety of proprietary formulas, often based on manganese, sodium, phosphate, or iron, rather than lead, to fulfill the function of lead without the toxic side effects and harm to catalytic converters.

I copied this explanation from Amsoil's web site and is a good explanation why to use a fuel additive. Of course, they would like you to use theirs.

"Classic-car owners sometimes ask if they need to add lead substitute to their gasoline. For decades, Tetraethyllead was added to gasoline to reduce engine knock and help prevent valve-seat recession. Once lead's negative effects became clear, regulators began phasing it out in the 1970s. But, what about classic-car engines from the 1950s and 1960s that were built with leaded gasoline in mind? Do they require a lead substitute?

Why lead was added to gasoline
First, let's look at the primary reasons lead was added to gasoline in the first place.

Increase octane to help reduce engine knock
Protect against valve-seat recession

Lead protected against pre-ignition' Gasoline's octane rating indicates its ability to withstand compression before igniting. During operation, the piston travels up the cylinder and compresses the fuel/air mixture in preparation for ignition. Compression heats the mixture to help it ignite more easily and burn more completely. Compressing the fuel/air also maximizes the volume packed into the cylinder, which boosts power and efficiency. All other factors being equal, that's why engines with higher compression ratios typically put out more power.

If the compressed, heated gasoline reaches its ignition point too soon, however, it will auto-ignite prior to the spark plug firing. This disrupts engine timing, reduces power and can damage the engine. It's important to use gasoline with the correct octane rating for your engine to avoid pre-ignition. Higher-compression engines require higher-octane gas.

Chemists discovered in the 1920s that Tetraethyllead added to gasoline was a cost-effective solution to pre-ignition and helped engines run better.

Lead also protected against valve recession

Lead also emerged as an effective way to protect against valve-seat recession, which can occur under high-rpm, high-heat, high-load conditions.

As the intensely hot exhaust valve hammers against the valve seat thousands of times per minute, the two components can momentarily fuse together in a process called "microwelding."

Once the valve opens, the microweld tears apart. Multiply this by thousands of times and the valve seat deteriorates until the valve no longer seats properly. This leads to compression and power loss, in addition to catastrophic failure if the valve breaks off.

Hardened valve seats introduced

By the mid-1970s, we'd become aware of lead's negative effects on human health, the environment and automotive catalytic converters. As regulators began working to eliminate lead from gasoline (and other products), engineers began designing engines with unleaded gas in mind. To combat microwelding, they used hardened valve seats, which are more resilient to valve recession.

That's great for engines of that era and today, but what about your classic car engine that was built prior to widespread use of hardened valve seats?

Lead substitutes offer an answer

To solve the problem, many enthusiasts add a lead substitute to their gasoline. Lead substitutes contain chemicals that form a sacrificial layer to inhibit microwelds and protect valve seats; they're easy to find at any parts store or online.

Do I need a lead substitute?

This is one of those garage debates that never seems to get settled, like the debate over the best motor oil brand or whether you should flush an engine with high miles.

For starters, if you've rebuilt the motor or done work to the cylinder heads, it's likely that hardened valve seats were used, which means a lead substitute isn't necessary.

However, if the engine is original and uses stock valve seats (i.e. non-hardened), we recommend using a lead substitute for added protection.

This is especially true if your operating conditions border on "severe" territory. For a cast-iron, high-compression-ratio engine of that era, it doesn't take much to wind up the rpm, turn up the heat and operate in conditions that promote valve-seat recession. Using a lead substitute offers peace of mind that your classic is protected.

So, which lead substitute should you use?

AMSOIL DOMINATOR® Octane Boost

It's no secret that we suggest AMSOIL DOMINATOR Octane Boost.

It contains a healthy dose of MMT (Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl), which is a metallic additive that creates a sacrificial barrier on valve seats to help prevent recession and keep your engine running strong. It's excellent as a lead substitute.

Not only that, as its name suggests, it boosts octane up to four numbers, which is just as important in older high-compression engines that were made with leaded gas in mind. It increases engine response and power in all two- and four-stroke gasoline-fueled engines. Just one treatment reduces engine knock, improves ignition and helps fuel burn cleaner."

Hope this adds a little info about this subject.