time to switch to 12 volts?

[Rhino 21150]

Poor old Camille (my 1938 La S). Her wiring is slowly burning up. This is in part due to age and in part the previous owner(s). Plus a few of my mods. The wires going to the start button need replacing, as does the headlamp circuit and taillamp. I want to make some mods, such as add turn signals, fog lights that dont flash with the turn signals. And no matter what I do, including adding the ground stud on the starter, she just doesnt want to crank very fast. The battery is an 850 CCA jobbie and new.
Do I bite the bullet and get a 12 volt generator, regulator and a box of bulbs? I have resistors for the heater fan, a 6 volt regulator for the gauges. I can also make a resistor that will let the starter crank at 8-10 volts. I also have (somewhere!) a Motorola 60 amp alternator with internal regulator. And a box full of relays typically used in cars. Swapping the coil is no problem, I might even use one that is designed to modern standards!
I DRIVE this car, I am only slightly interested in winning car show prizes. Ive already done that. And Im interested in a real radio, alarm, etc.
Opinions please!

[Doug Houston]

So you drive the car (and are consuming it). If you had a modern car, and it was suffering from garbaged electrical equipment, youd replace whats wrong, and go away contented. Looks like you need a new wiring harness for starters, especially if some yayhoo has been at it, and doing who-knows-what to it. Bad wiring does cause fires.

A conversion to 12 Volts doesnt cure sick equipment. Competent electrical work does. Think of this: If you change your electrical system to 12 Jolts, and go for a few years before more problems, will you want to change it to 24 Volts? Lots and lots of us get slong fine as the car was built, without all of the problems of changing voltages. If youve been going along with the same electrical guy all these years, and youre in the mess youre in now, theres a lot wrong with that guy, and not just the car!

[Rhino 21150]

I know that switching to twelve volts wont cure anything. But since I will be pulling the wiring out anyway, this should be the time to make the switch. Most of the current wires are all the same dull brown with no identifying marks left. Some of the switches have no wires on them! There is a three position under the dash that I cant really trace since the wires vanish into a bundle and have no coding. The switch does not belong there according to everyone who has looked at it. It doesnt appear to do anything.
When I built my dune buggy years ago I started with a six volt bug. I converted to twelve as I wired it from scratch. I had no troubles after that was done.
A replacement harness is expensive and makes no allowance for fuses. It also will be just as hard to expand for stereo as the original. I can make my own piecemeal just as fast as installing a factory part plus I can include disconnects, troubleshooting points (pin tip jacks) and extra switches for the backup light and fog lights.
I didnt butcher the wiring, nor did the previous owner. The last wiring guy to work on it is lost in the mists of time. He made a mess. He will never see the car again.
Twenty four volts? That would make the wiring all number 18 gauge, even the 100 watt halogen headlamps! An interesting thought! Just kidding. If I were to go to a higher voltage I would go to 120!

[Bill Gauch]

I understand your dilemma. Wiring is a pain. My fear would be if you upgrade to 12V with original wiring, you would burn through more wires much faster. I say this because you will be adding resistors everywhere you keep the old stuff. I think, no matter what you do, you will need a new full wiring harness. $500-$600 for a full harness would get you half the way to where you want to be. Of course, if you really want, you can just buy the correct color-coded wire and make your own harness. Even if you want to change to 12V, put in an alternator, etc., I would still use the correct wire for the potential future re-restoration in the cars future. Once you got the new harness in the car, you can always wire things without cutting so that you have what you desire, like a fuse panel, resistors, a radio, etc. You can hide it up under the dash, so it is completly out of sight. Whatever you do, try to "do no harm". That way, if you want to put it back for resale, judged shows, etc., you can do it in half a day, and no one is the wiser.

[JIM CLC # 15000]

05-29-06
Rhino, The 38 La Salle is very simple to re-wire. I used 5 strand 12 gage wire in the rear of car. All 5 stands in a flaxable rubber strand. I have the wireing diagram at my summer home, which I will be returning to next week. I also re-wired the Generator with 10 gage wire. and the starter circuit with 10 gage. I used 5 strand because I incorperated turn signals in the "cat" eyes below the tail-lights. I also used 5/12 in the front of the car for the lights and I intend to install two beam fog lights and make one of the beams "turn-signals".
I have cleaned the mounting flange of the starter and so-far-so-good.
Rhino, as far as 6VDC goes, you will have more trouble finding 6VDC acceressors then connecting them to the 6VDC system and cuting in fuses as needed. Also the switch that no-one can figure out. I think I know the switch you are refering to, it controls the "dash" lights. works manualy for what some cars do automaticly now-a-days.
Good Luck, JIM
P.S. If you do decide to re-wire your car,use 14 gage wire.

[Doug Houston]

What with this deluge of electrical experts I wonder why Im wasting my time writing this here.
My first question: How will new wiring relate to the "need" for changing the car to 12 Volts? No dingaling answers here. I want an engineering answer.

The radio and the heater feeds are part of the proper harness, The heater switch has a fuse, if I remember right, and the radio has an in-line fuse after connection in the harness. The sticky part of the cars wiring is the lighting switch. That multibeam headlight system is a killer.

If you want, I can send you a reprint of the chassis harness drawing from Packard Electric. You can make a pegboard from it, and with a little logical deduction, make a proper harness. Its for the 38-50,60,60S cars.

[Bill Gauch]

Ok, engineering answer to your question: New wiring in no way shape or form relates to the "need" (want) to do the 6V ==> 12V job.

Diagnostic answer to your question: In response to this statement from the original post, "Her wiring is slowly burning up.", it looks like he needs a new harness no matter what. It is possible that he could piecemeal a repair to the existing harness, but if its original (and it sounds like it is), its not worth it. As you try to splice/handle the wire, it will fall apart.

What this means in my opinion (for what its worth): The original post was actually posting a question with both a "need" AND a "want". I feel he needs a new harness and wants to go to 12V. That being said, if he goes to 12V, he will still need a new harness and will continue to have issues with the wiring.

Of course, all this is just my opinion. Personally, when I am done with my car (will I ever be "done"?), I wont be going to 12V. If I cant take the silence and/or AM radio, I will either add an audio input to the original radio, get/make a DC/DC converter, or some other set-up. Other than that, I dont need any other accessories. I dont even need turn signals. The only time anyone uses turn signals in RI is when they are in the far right lane at a light and want to turn left. Even then, they only turn on their right blinker.

[Virgil Perkins 19943]

I am not against sensible upgrades, but having a 41 6019SF that I replaced the complete wiring harness, had the starter & generator rebuilt and installed an Optima 900 amp battery, I have had NO electrical or starting problems whatsoever. It starts easy cold or HOT.  The only thing that doesnt work is the nut behind the wheel.   As for modern sounds, you can get 6V AM/FM conversions with CD aux input for $400 or so.  So why go to all the bother to change over to 12V?  One guys opinion.

[Doug. Houston]

O.K., Im satisfied. Wiring does get terrible with all that age, and regardless of what voltage it carries if the wiring is bad, it jut has to be changed.

Long before new harnesses were being made, I made a new one for my 38-60S, and installed it. Since I had designed numerous harnesses for the Redstone Missile, and other applicationms, I did an article in the SS for it, and showed how to make a pegboard and the harness.

Everyhing seems to work O.K., except the car has 3 speeds in reverse, ice cubes come out of the heater, and the spedometer tells time in Greenwich mean time. Im still working on it.

[John Tozer # 7946]

Gentlemen,

You may be interested in looking at this web site:

http://www.vinwire.com.au TARGET=_blank>http://www.vinwire.com.au

This company has been in business for many years in Australia and supplied my 37 75 loom. It is an excellent product. You will note from the Product Index that left hand drive versions are also available and they will work off your wiring diagram to produce the correct loom for a LOT less (even allowing for postage) than the figures being quoted here.

For example, the 37 75 series Main Loom is US$247.50 plus postage and the 38 Fleetwood is US$317.00 plus postage.

We gotta get something from those free trade agreements!


John Tozer

[Bill Gauch]

Yeah, the only problem with buying the harness from Australia is that you have to install it upside-down for it to work.

[John Tozer #7946]

Bill,

Hell, ya just stand on your head when you install it and everything is fine.

JT

[Doug Houston]

O.K., go ahead and laugh, you crazy clowns.........When youre installing a dash harness, You ARE laying upside down. I was pretty good at that years ago.

[denise 20352]

  Upgrade it!  You know you want to!

  I had lots of trouble with inaccurate gauges on my 76 NYB and I just decided to scrap the whole panel and do a digital conversion.  I couldnt be happier...I not only solved all of my problems, but added some new functionality that I wanted.  Repairing the gauges would have just given me the same old junk, and I dont miss it a bit.

  Whats the point in keeping the old 6V system if what you want to do is add modern electrical equipment?  Rewire the whole thing!  Have fun with it!

-denise