66 - can oil pump gasket be changed without removing timing cover?

[scotth3886]

1966 Fleetwood - can oil pump gasket be changed without removing timing cover.

Just a few weeks ago I spent money having all gaskets and fuel pump, oil pump, chain, gear, water pump replaced.

Oil pump gasket is still leaking.  Can oil pump gasket be changed without taking it all apart again.  Mechanic thinks the oil pump gasket can be changed without removing timing cover.  I think not. 

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Yes it can. Not a pleasant task but doable.
Greg Surfas

[scotth3886]

Yes it can. Not a pleasant task but doable.
Greg Surfas

Thanks.  Nothing on this car ends up being a pleasant task. 

Mechanic thinks he can do it.  Shop manual says otherwise.  I'm starting to put more credence in the shop manual after this running rich, rough idle ordeal with the manifold to carb gaskets. 

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I would be thinking that the Shop Manual would be the best reference, simply because if something can be done simpler, then the Shop Manual would have it as the original engineers really do know what is best.

Does the Shop Manual say to pull the engine?

Bruce.

[scotth3886]

I would be thinking that the Shop Manual would be the best reference, simply because if something can be done simpler, then the Shop Manual would have it as the original engineers really do know what is best.

Does the Shop Manual say to pull the engine?

Bruce.

No, but it says timing cover has to come off.  Problem with that is when I'd get it back, something else would be leaking (aside from my wallet). 

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Scott,
How badly is it leaking and can you locate the EXACT spot that is leaking?
Greg Surfas

[scotth3886]

Scott,
How badly is it leaking and can you locate the EXACT spot that is leaking?
Greg Surfas

Its leaking two or three tablespoons worth after after a drive long enough to get everything fully warmed up.  Not enough though that you can see it with the stick.  I don't know exactly where because I had the mechanic put it up in the air and look. 

[TJ Hopland]

Is the issue with doing it with the timing cover in place just access?  Crossmember below it?  Maybe that its harder to check the clearances?   I know on Buicks which I think was a similar design you wanted to do it with a cold engine and pack it full of vasoline to hold the gears in place while you got the pump cover on.   If you tried that on a warm engine it would melt to fast and the gears kept falling out and just made a big mess of things. 

Is the bypass valve in the timing cover or the pump cover on these?

[scotth3886]

Is the issue with doing it with the timing cover in place just access?  Crossmember below it?  Maybe that its harder to check the clearances?   I know on Buicks which I think was a similar design you wanted to do it with a cold engine and pack it full of vasoline to hold the gears in place while you got the pump cover on.   If you tried that on a warm engine it would melt to fast and the gears kept falling out and just made a big mess of things. 

Is the bypass valve in the timing cover or the pump cover on these?

The issue is mistakes.  Right now nothing else is leaking and I would like to keep it that way.  If he has to remove the timing cover, then we're pretty much starting over with most of the stuff that I had done last time for $4,000 in labor.  If we go that route, sure enough, something else will be leaking that currently isn't.    If he can do it by just pulling the oil pump from the timing cover to get at that gasket, I'd much prefer to do it that way. 

This is a new Chebbie dealer and although the mechanic is very talented, the car is older than he is, and he has no familiarity or experience with old Cadillacs.  I can't do much here because my neighbor to the north has out of town guests and they're out back a bunch.  Car is too big to do much in the garage, and when its outside, they're about 25' away.  HOA prohibits what I'm already doing and I don't want to temp anyone to make a complaint.

[TJ Hopland]

I'm with you on not removing a leak free timing cover,  I'm just wondering why the factory manual says it has to come off?   If you can figure out why it will be easier to say if its a good reason in this case or not.    Was the crossmember fairly far back on the engine in 66?  Or didn't that happen till slightly later?    If there is something physically in the way maybe its just that you can't drop the gear with the shaft out before it hits something?  But in this case you don't need to remove the shaft and gear so maybe its ok?

Is the pump cover also aluminum on these?   

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Scott,
Thinking back on the work it took to pull the pump loose enough to clean the surfaces and reinstall the split gasket (I was extremely lucky) I will go back on what I said and suggest that it WOULD be easier and take less time to pull the front cover.  If this has been done recently, there should be very little problem pulling the cover bolts,etc. My question is if the mechanic just did this work why isn't he standing behind his work?
Greg Surfas

[scotth3886]

I'm with you on not removing a leak free timing cover,  I'm just wondering why the factory manual says it has to come off?   If you can figure out why it will be easier to say if its a good reason in this case or not.    Was the crossmember fairly far back on the engine in 66?  Or didn't that happen till slightly later?    If there is something physically in the way maybe its just that you can't drop the gear with the shaft out before it hits something?  But in this case you don't need to remove the shaft and gear so maybe its ok?

Is the pump cover also aluminum on these?

It's just the gasket from oil pump to timing cover that leaks.  Everything else is fine and leak free.  The crossmember is in front, which sure made it much easier to do the oil pan gasket without pulling the engine.  The crossmember was moved back in 68 for the 472 I believe. 

The shop manual doesn't specifically address just a gasket replacement, but says whenever oil pump components require service, the timing cover has to come off. There's so much potential for other leaks that I really really hope he's right that he can do it just removing the oil pump housing.   I don't know if the housing is aluminum.

[scotth3886]

Scott,
Thinking back on the work it took to pull the pump loose enough to clean the surfaces and reinstall the split gasket (I was extremely lucky) I will go back on what I said and suggest that it WOULD be easier and take less time to pull the front cover.  If this has been done recently, there should be very little problem pulling the cover bolts,etc. My question is if the mechanic just did this work why isn't he standing behind his work?
Greg Surfas

I end up paying every time he touches something or implied, but not spoken by the service manager is that they are a new car dealer and really don't need to be doing this kind of work.   I can't do it all here because the HOA rules if someone reports me.  And Columbus is a ricer / import town and no one knows jackschiit about older American cars.  It's far more ricer-ish than LA where I spent 30 years.  They to their credit were the only ones willing to take a crack at it.  I pay non-warranty rates and find my own parts, which I'm getting pretty good at, thanks mostly to this forum.  Only missed at getting a t-stat without looking in the box to check for a gasket.  Had that fixed in 30 minutes.  Everything else has been fine. 

But yeah, it was just all apart last month when we replaced/refreshed everything and did get all of the leaks stopped but this one. 

[scotth3886]

What's' really sad is that I've had this car for three month now and haven't yet made it to the dragstrip. 

I have done it with a GPS app that's pretty damn close to actually dragstrip time other than ET being a few 100th slower due the 'roll out' of a foot  at the lights and maybe exaggerating trap speed because at the drag strip its the average over the last 60'.

But still, for running with 200 lb of a full tank of fuel, this isn't all that bad for just a 429.  At National Trails or Kil Kare I'd of course run with about an 1/8th tanks.  Just enough to do my runs and make it to a gas station.  I'm a drag racer since June 9, 1960, and I'll run anything for a few laughs, but the car still needs to run respectably.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Scott,

That is a treacherous road you are going down (drag strip).  Where that has lead me with my 73 Coupe deVille s into the 12's (12.99), and sitting here waiting for cooler weather to try out my new tires to get into the mid to low 12's.  See it is a never ending saga. 
A stock 66 when running well, although you are going to have a "one tire fire" is somewhere in the mid to low 16's.
Good luck.  My motto is "You have to grow old, you never have to grow up."
Greg Surfas

[scotth3886]

Scott,

That is a treacherous road you are going down (drag strip).  Where that has lead me with my 73 Coupe deVille s into the 12's (12.99), and sitting here waiting for cooler weather to try out my new tires to get into the mid to low 12's.  See it is a never ending saga. 
A stock 66 when running well, although you are going to have a "one tire fire" is somewhere in the mid to low 16's.
Good luck.  My motto is "You have to grow old, you never have to grow up."
Greg Surfas

Yep, that's where it is with full tank.  When I think I have potential high 15s, prolly just by running a lil low on gas, off to the strip it will go.

After all, back in 1995 when this was a new car, I had a little fun with my STS, even against a new C4 ZR1.  Put 1,800 passes on the STS.

Just shooting the chit with folks, I have some ask me where I grew up and I tell them that I haven't picked a place yet !!!