1956 - how much car wandering is normal on bias ply tires and lane grooves?

[Hillbillycat]

Can I get my 1956 on bias ply tires to run perfectly straight despite the condition of the road?

My 1956 SdV runs straight, no pull on a PERFECT road. But as soon as lane grooves appear she wanders/jumps around. Same on a bad road with lots of repair spots.
After replacing the parts mentioned below driving quality improved dramatically.
Now I´m wondering if that´s the best I can get on bias ply tires or if I should replace the remaining front end suspension and steering parts, too, like upper and lower control arm bushings or tie rod ends? They show no wear so we left them alone.

Info:
new kingpins + honed bushings
new drag link repair kit
new stabilizer kit
new front wheel bearings
new rear leaf spring + shackle rubber bushings
new shocks all around

[James Landi]

 Having driving many many miles on two of my 56 Cadillacs during the 60's, I vividly recall just how much more controlled it steered with radial tires.  The bias provided a far smoother ride, especially if inflated to the relatively low psi pressure specifications.  I would check for looseness in the idler and pitman arms, if you've not done so.  It's easy to do--also check to see if you''ve any side to side looseness when the front wheels are off the ground.  I recall having to replace the bushings regularly.  Otherwise, you have the a wonderful ride, but you have to stay clear of those road irregularities-- it's in the car's nature.    Hope this helps, James

[Hillbillycat]

Thanks James,

I´ll double check on the idler and pitman arm.

[fishnjim]

I don't see tie rod ends listed?   Not sure just rebuilding things are as tight as new parts.   Could just be no or improper alignment.   Take to a tire shop and let them check it. 
I grew up on bias and don't think the tires "alone" made it wander unless something wrong with the tire.   But had lots of experience with alignment issues and worn suspension parts chewing tires/pulling, etc.   
The narrower tread maybe a factor in deeply grooved pavement but could argue the opposite as well.

[walt chomosh #23510]

Hillbilly,
  I have a 55CDV that I've driven as a daily driver for over 20yrs.The bias ply tires gave a much smoother ride then the radials that I replaced them with. My front end is tight! Still....it wants to wander compared to my 09DTS or my wife's Chrysler mini van for that matter. The front end alignment fellow I use has been at it forever and when I kept wanting to cheat on my toe he stated a fact "the car is NEVER going to handle like the new ones"! And he's did thousands of vintage cars thru the years.......still, I'd like to  increase my toe a little more but have other projects at the moment!....walt...tulsa,ok

[Jay Friedman]

I drive my '49 at interstate speeds with bias plies.  The front end is in excellent shape.  Most of the time there is no wander but, yes, it does wander a bit on certain worn spots on certain interstates, but I'm used to it and slow down when it happens. 

Besides having the front end in good shape, an important way to control wander is to make sure your rear spring shackle bolts are torqued to the specifications in the shop manual.  I know this sounds like it should have nothing to do with front end wander, if not a bit off the wall, but I was advised to do this years ago and it did improve things. 

[Lexi]

Any '56 I have owned had a tendency to wander a bit to the right. On a perfectly flat road, like a parking lot, with no crown, they may have went straight. Don't recall. All had bias ply tires. My current '56 had the entire front end rebuilt with a rear shackle kit installed. New tires as well. Will wander to the right a touch which I believe is normal. Cadillac issued a bulletin in 1956 for dealerships to make alignment adjustments for those customers who complained of too much drift to the right. The revised specs differ from what is in the shop manual. So this issue was noted back in the day when the cars were new. And yes, road ruts and other pavement imperfections don't help as the bias ply tires don't track as well as radials. Clay/Lexi

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

I have always run my 54 on bias ply tyres. I did a complete front end rebuild plus new rear spring shackles and I was lucky enough to get a new steering shaft and recirculating ball nut. My car drives beautifully but if the road is badly rutted it will tramline. I've found bias ply tyres are unforgiving of worn steering and suspension parts, but I am happy to keep those parts maintained so I can ride on bias ply tyres, radials never look right to me. Phil

[Hillbillycat]

I think I found what caused my recent wandering issue:
The left front wheel bearing is shot!! Only about 700 miles on them since installation! How could this happen??

Wanted to switch front drums from left to right yesterday since we were not able to get an equal reading on the brake test stand. Car had developed a pull to the right when braking. When the hub cover on the left came off we saw the new grease was full of metal debris. Removing the nut revelaed one ball missing, being totally chewed up!!! Drum didn´t came off tough, but it was late and we just wanted to get the car back into the garage.

I must admit I had made a mistake during the initial torquing of the left side bearing. Followed the shop manual instruction AFTER I did torque it down pretty bad, then backed off. My pal had said to do so and I didn´t read in the manual before. The car did not leave the lift with this wrong torque, so no weight was on the wrong torqued bearing.

Could this initial torquing destroy/crack the bearing already?

[Hillbillycat]

Oh, and what bearing to buy?
I think to remember I had bought from Kanter, which I now read and learned I had better not.
Any advice?

There´s a set on ebay right now tha is made in the USA. abuot 200 bucks. Brand is ndh.

I know best would be to get NOS Delco New Departures, but where?

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Check to see if there is a Made in China etching on the bearing.

Many people have had problems with bearings that are made in China.   It is a matter of construction quality.

Bruce.

[fishnjim]

Without analyzing the bearing fragments, it's not possible to answer. 
How much was it tightened to?   I think it's like 10-20 ft-lbs and back off for the cotter pin hole.   I like to turn the wheel and check the spin, not free and not tight.   Must makes several rotations before it stops, no drag or wobble.   Solid, can't shake it, either.
Was it properly lubed prior to installation?   You have to press grease, aka "pack" into the bearing interior.  If you just put grease on the outside the balls won't be lubed. Discoloration(bluish), spindle, race, etc. would be an indicator of heating from improper lube.   That will destroy them fast.   Balls aren't as laterally stable as rollers.   I think they make roller replacements now.
Look at the cage and see if one place where the ball was is deformed to let the ball wobble.
Sometimes, they don't go on all the way and appear tight, but aren't seated or grease seal pinches.
I'm not sure anyone in US is making ball wheel bearings any more, kinda obsolete, but make sure you buy a "name" brand that has proper quality controls.   The 3 majors. Timken, National, and SKF.   700 miles most likely indicates a installation problem in my opinion.   Quality has improved over the last decade or so.   They should last tens of thousands of miles with regular maintenance.
PS;
What to say about "hearsay", and not reading the documents???
Any time something doesn't "work" right after repairs, there's a much greater chance it's connected to the repairs.   

[TJ Hopland]

I assume the bearings we are talking about here are the type like bicycles used to use where they are round balls held in a 'tin' cage?   Not nearly as substantial as the tapper rollers that came later?

[LaSalle5019]

I assume the bearings we are talking about here are the type like bicycles used to use where they are round balls held in a 'tin' cage?   Not nearly as substantial as the tapper rollers that came later?

I would surmise he has angular contact ball bearings like my LaSalle has. Compared to tapered roller bearings, they have a lot less rolling resistance, have less load carrying ability for same package size (less contact area) and are more expensive.  For spindles, they are/were used to reduce rolling resistance and improve fuel economy.

Tapered roller bearings were patented by Henry Timken in 1898 and have been around since that time.  Timken tapered roller bearings were original to my 1923 Studebaker.  Cadillac probably wanted to go with a more premium bearing to reduce rolling resistance.

It's not about one bearing design being better as they each have trade-offs.  My LaSalle was designed to use angular contact roller bearings and the bearing size was selected for the load.  They could have used a slightly smaller diameter tapered roller bearing instead but made the trade-off of cost vs reduced rolling resistance. Still done today.

Jim is correct with regard to bearing manufacturing.  Timken probably has the most US manufacturing still (and there are others) but most all bearings are made off-shore now.  The larger companies maintain strict controls over the steel used and manufacturing processes so I agree to stick with the name brands.  There are others like Koyo and NTN that also make high quality bearings.  Maybe use this site as a guide:
https://www.americanbearings.org/page/memberlisting

I used to have a bearing expert in my team so I ask a lot of questions to better learn about capabilities.  There is a lot of interesting history in that industry.
Scott

[Cadman-iac]

 Back in 1980, I had just put all new ball bearings in a 56 Chevy I had,  and drove probably 200 miles when it began to get a vibration. I still had another 100 miles to go to get back to the base where I was stationed, but I carried all my tools with me, so I stopped at a rest area between Lordsburg and Deming New Mexico to see what was going on.
Long story short,  I ended up taking half the balls out of the good side and putting them in the bad side to get it home. The races were still good, it just flattened out one side of each ball on the inner bearing. I ended up driving 300 miles on it that way before I could replace it with another new one. And they were I think $50 each back then. Hate to see what they cost now.

As far as I know there isn't a roller bearing that is a direct replacement for these ball bearings. I wish there was, because I would switch mine.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Can I get my 1956 on bias ply tires to run perfectly straight despite the condition of the road?

My 1956 SdV runs straight, no pull on a PERFECT road. But as soon as lane grooves appear she wanders/jumps around. Same on a bad road with lots of repair spots.
After replacing the parts mentioned below driving quality improved dramatically.
Now I´m wondering if that´s the best I can get on bias ply tires or if I should replace the remaining front end suspension and steering parts, too, like upper and lower control arm bushings or tie rod ends? They show no wear so we left them alone.

Welcome to the world of bias tires- 100% normal and there is no cure this side of radials.

[cadman56]

You can very easily OVETIGHTEN  the ball bearing type wheel bearings.  Do NOT tighten them up to the same tighness you would a tapered wheel bearing.  You will RUIN them in very short order.
Get our your shop manual and tighten them  as per the 1956 Cadillac maual.  NO TIGHTER.
Also make sure you FULLY PACK the cages on these types of bearings.
These bearings were made to run a bit loose, not tight like a tapered roller bearingl.

[Hillbillycat]

Well, after installing new quality US made bearings and tightening per the manual I have zero brake pulling anymore and way better road tracking. It was the broken bearing what caused the pull and massive wandering.  A little bit of wandering is still left but like I learned from you guys it´s bias ply related. I can surely live with that.
Roger´s point on radials for our narrow european roads is to be considered when new tires are due.

Thanks again for all the help and input. It´s such a plesure to own and drive a Cadillac.

[jdemerson]

Welcome to the world of bias tires- 100% normal and there is no cure this side of radials.

Based on all I've heard and experienced on Vermont two-lane roads, I agree with Eric. Even with a car with tapered roller bearings, tight and well-adjusted steering and suspension components, and proper tire pressure, bias ply tires will 'follow the grooves' and wander to some degree. I've never talked to anyone who switched to radials and then wanted to switch back; all have reported noticeable improvement in steering/tracking.  I have good bias-ply tires now, but my next tires will be radials with bias-ply styling.

John Emerson
1952 Cadillac Sedan 6219X

[LaSalle5019]

Based on all I've heard and experienced on Vermont two-lane roads, I agree with Eric. Even with a car with tapered roller bearings, tight and well-adjusted steering and suspension components, and proper tire pressure, bias ply tires will 'follow the grooves' and wander to some degree. I've never talked to anyone who switched to radials and then wanted to switch back; all have reported noticeable improvement in steering/tracking.  I have good bias-ply tires now, but my next tires will be radials with bias-ply styling.

John Emerson
1952 Cadillac Sedan 6219X

Totally agree and am happy with my purchase of Diamondback Auburn Radials.
Scott