1960s Water pump for a/c cars

[Steve W]

In doing a bit of research, it seems they made 2 different water pumps for the 68 CdV. One for cars WITH AC (which has clearance for the double-pulley belts), and one for cars WITHOUT AC.

So..I just looked at OReilly, NAPA and AutoZone websites, and they ALL have the pumps...but there's no designation of AC or not.

Did they standardize the pumps they make now so that they are all clearanced for the double belts?
 

[David Greenburg]

I'm not familiar with the '68 pumps, but I will tell you that on '59-'62 pumps, there are "new" ones that supposedly fit both a/c and non-a/c cars. The difference is in the length of the shaft, to accommodate the additional pulley and different radiator position for a/c cars.  But the replacements try to "split the difference" and wind up not quite fitting either correctly, resulting in vibration and pulley/belt alignment issues. If at all possible I'd try to get your original rebuilt. There are a number of good rebuilders out there, including Arthur Gould and Flying Dutchman. They do great work, and are surprisingly fast.

[Highwayman68]

The 68 AC pump is very different than the non-AC pump. Other than the duel belts it's the extra deep section where the belts run past the left side of the pump to allow clearance for the duel belts. No one manufactures these anymore so the only ones available on these sites are for non-AC cars. There are a couple of places that rebuild these well, Flying Dutchman is very good, he has done 3 of mine.

[TJ Hopland]

There doesn't seem to be any sort of standard and at one time it did seem like they were being made to fit all years but that did't help with any rebuilds that were floating around.  It also seems like at least some of the current production may have just grabbed a random used one and sort of copied that not knowing or caring about the earlier models where there are some clearance concerns.

Maybe someone who has bought one recently can go out and look if its got the clearance?  If it does cross your fingers and order from where they got theirs?

Mark, are you saying there is something different other than the belt clearance?  Or is that it?  I didn't know that they had a non ac version.  I wonder if that was an original factory thing or something that came up in later years when they got lazy and stopped maintaining clearances?

Many years ago I think I had 4 loose pumps and ordered in everything my parts store at the time could get their hands on which was another like 6 pumps and I think out of those 10 there were only 3 castings that matched. From what I remember most of those did have the clearance for the dual belts even if they were listed for the later cars. That was at least 20 years ago so I think we had not quite yet got to the new overseas new units yet which I'm sure is a whole new load of variables.

[TJ Hopland]

Found this note on the CadCo website regarding the out of stock earlier design.

This product has been at least temporarily discontinued by the manufacturer. FlowKooler was using stock replacement castings to build these, and the stock replacement castings appear to have been discontinued by the the manufacturer. We are working on a solution for those needing a pump to clear the dual-AC belt applications.

So it would appear that there is no longer one of the trusted sources for the earlier design and anything else is gonna just be luck as to what you get. I'm sure there are still plenty floating around its just there are very few people that can identify them properly.

[TJ Hopland]

So it looks like some downtime to send yours to rebuild unless you have a friendly parts store that will order in several for you to look at and maybe find the right one?

[Steve W]

Thank you all for your replies.

If logic were the key, they would make all the pumps with the clearance for the double belts, because:
1. Most Cadillacs were ordered with AC, and
2. It would still work with cars without AC.

You all mentioned rebuilding, and that got me to thinking... I actually save most the parts I replace on my car, thinking that someday I'll find a good rebuilder and have my parts rebuilt and saved as spares. Yeah, right! They just sit on a couple of shelves under my workbench! But I will get serious about finding a rebuilder here in my area.

But, meanwhile, I looked in my pile of parts, and as luck would have it, I had stored the original water pump I had replaced in the box that my current, replacement pump came in!
The box had  a sticker with the Gates part number...44032... and it's the same part number that NAPA has on its part that it currently offers. I guess NAPA re-brands the Gates pump as their own?  So I ordered it and it should be here today.
I had called NAPA, and they said that nowhere in their cross-reference system does any water pump have an AC or non AC designation. I really can't remember, but 10 years ago when I replaced the pump the first time, I have a vague recollection of someone asking me if I had AC  or not. (of course, at my age, a vague recollection is about the best I can hope for!)

Oh well,,, here's hoping it works. I'll update later.

[Highwayman68]

Can't wait to see what you get.

[Steve W]

OK! The NAPA water pump #44032 IS the correct water pump for the 68 472 with AC with double belts for the AC and power steering. Plenty of clearance for the dual belts, in fact, more clearance than the Gates pump of the same number that I took off the car! I installed brand new belts too. (Hoses were already relatively new.)

[Highwayman68]

OK! The NAPA water pump #44032 IS the correct water pump for the 68 472 with AC with double belts for the AC and power steering. Plenty of clearance for the dual belts, in fact, more clearance than the Gates pump of the same number that I took off the car! I installed brand new belts too. (Hoses were already relatively new.)

Can you please provide pictures of the clearance of the belts passing by.

[TJ Hopland]

The $120 question would be if you ordered another one today would you get the same thing?  Too bad that has to be a question with pretty much everything these days.

[Big Fins]

On my '69 Fleetwood, I had to shim the lower crank pulley out 3/16" so the belts would either rub a grove in the pump housing or wear off the inner edge of the inner belt. It wasn't fun.

[35-709]

The difference in the 472/500 water pumps is not whether the car has A/C or not, but rather if it has a factory installed HEI distributor.  Believe that was 1974 when HEI became standard and a single (slightly wider) belt was used to clear the larger diameter HEI --- and the water pump was changed accordingly (and unnecessarily in my view). 

My experience several years ago was that if you ordered a new manufacture water pump from a parts house for any 472/500, you got the new style pump with less clearance and they would look you in the eye and say, "it fits all years".  Welll, technically it would fit, yes, but you could not use 2 belts because the inner one would rub against the lower hose inlet pipe with now less clearance built in.  If you ordered a REBUILT pump for the earlier (pre-'74) years you could get the old style pump with more clearance, which I did.  My suggestion is, if you need the early style, have yours rebuilt.  If you have an earlier style spare on the shelf, have it rebuilt for future use.

My guess is the NAPA 44032 is a rebuilt earlier style unit.  If it is indeed a new production early unit, I'm gonna go grab a couple since I have 3 472s under my wing and the earlier style will indeed fit and work with all years, whereas the newer style will not, despite what the counter man says.         

[Steve W]

Can you please provide pictures of the clearance of the belts passing by.

Well, I can try...
I really can't get a clear angle of all sides, there's just not enough room to get the camera phone in there, but there's plenty of clearance.

[Highwayman68]

Well, I can try...
I really can't get a clear angle of all sides, there's just not enough room to get the camera phone in there, but there's plenty of clearance.

Yes that is the correct one, I can tell by the sharp and flat areas where the belt passes. The other one is more rounded and not as deep.

This is great news, if as already stated the next one is correct also.

[TJ Hopland]

Napa's site says its a new Gates pump so the only question is are these the ones that went out of production and its just luck that you are getting the 'good' one from existing inventory?  Seems like if they were still in production from a company like Gates that the specialty vendors and FlowKooler would be able to get them but they say they can't so that makes me think its just luck that you find old stock.

The really flat area(s) is also what I remember being the key.  Like someone else said the ones that usually don't clear have a more rough slight curve in those areas.  I do remember some of those just clearing and some that were not even close to letting you run that inner belt. So if you can lay eyes on the actual part or get a photo from the seller you can be reasonable sure its gonna work if its got those really flat areas.

[Steve W]

Napa's site says its a new Gates pump so the only question is are these the ones that went out of production and its just luck that you are getting the 'good' one from existing inventory?  Seems like if they were still in production from a company like Gates that the specialty vendors and FlowKooler would be able to get them but they say they can't so that makes me think its just luck that you find old stock.

The really flat area(s) is also what I remember being the key.  Like someone else said the ones that usually don't clear have a more rough slight curve in those areas.  I do remember some of those just clearing and some that were not even close to letting you run that inner belt. So if you can lay eyes on the actual part or get a photo from the seller you can be reasonable sure its gonna work if its got those really flat areas.

Yes, you can tell by looking, IF you know what to look for!
And this new NAPA pump definitely has much more clearance than the Gates pump I took off...like the one you're describing,TJ, my old one had just barely enough clearance.
So I'm guessing Gates did a re-design somewhere along the way.

 And I didn't get the new NAPA pump from the store, I ordered it from NAPA online, and they shipped it to the store. So, just maybe, this is the only pump you'll get when you order it now.

Hopefully this posting will help the next guy that's looking for info on the correct water pump.

[bctexas]

To follow up on this conversation, my '70 SDV came to me with the wrong water pump, and the inside belt rubs on it.  I ordered a Gates 44032, and it is the single belt pump casting identical to the one in the car. I found two sources that appear to show the correct pump in their catalog, but both say "out of stock". 

I am currently running with the outer belt driving the ps pump directly, and the inner belt running from the ps pump to the AC compressor (a modern direct replacement with a single belt groove).  I currently have the radiator out to have a leak repaired and it is a perfect time to replace the pump - if I can find one!  Any leads out there?  I'd happily buy a used one and have it rebuilt if I could find one....

Oh the joys of old car ownership....

Happy Motoring!

Edit/update
I just found and ordered a new water pump on Ebay that purports to be the correct one - the photo looks correct and so does the description.  I will report back when it arrives....