1960s Window lock out switch issues - 68 DeVille

[chrisbutnut]

The window lock out switch on my car was previously disabled.  The 3 wires that connect to it were tied together with a wire connector, so the windows were always operable, regardless of key position.  I reconnected those cut wires to the connector that pushes into the back of the lock out switch (that connector still had the wires attached to it, so they were easy to match to what comes out of the vehicle harness).  Now, depending on the orientation of the switch, as it plugs into the connector, I get the following results:

1. Windows operate in Normal position, regardless of whether key is in off or on position.  In Locked position, windows do not operate (also applies to key off and on). 
2. Windows do not operate in Normal or Locked position, regardless of key position.  They only operate (in both key positions) if toggled to Emergency position.

I assume there is some sort of a wiring issue, however the wires from the vehicle harness to connect to the wires coming out of the connector that plugs into the lock out switch match (red, pink with black stripe, orange with black stripe).  Any thoughts?  The only thing I haven't tried is unplugging the quad window switch and flipping that around.

[Julien Abrahams]

It seems that the always hot and key on only hot wire are switched. According to my '67 shop manual, the orange/black stripe wire is always hot, and the red/white stripe wire is only hot with the key on. Windows should not operate with key off and switch in normal positions, but should operate with switch held in emergency position.

[TJ Hopland]

I'm having trouble following whats currently going on, is line 1 before the repair and like 2 after? 

I'm also not clear on how this is supposed to work.  Seems like it can't be that complicated.   3 positions?  It can lock into lets say the left position which is 'normal' which connects to a key on source?  It can also lock into the center position which is 'off' so no power connection?  Then it can be manually held to say the right in the 'emergency' position which connects to a constant source? You let go and it springs back to 'off'? 

I think the most important question that needs to be asked and answered is why was it bypassed in the first place.  Someone had to have done that for a reason.  Something they didn't know how to or want to or weren't able to fix at the time.  Was it just that switch that went bad?  Was there an issue with the key on feed?

How did it work when it was bypassed?   With the key or all the time?   Were all 3 wires tied together?   Has anything else changed either started or stopped working since you 'fixed' this?  I doubt that when the switch was working properly that when you went to emergency that it would have fed that constant power back down the key on line.  Its likely that that line was also connected to other systems at the key so things that were supposed to say off would also get powered in emergency mode and since that wasn't the intended path that could have overloaded and stressed things on that emergency feed. 

Thinking about this it seems like the most likely scenario would be that the key on feed failed for some reason.  Blown fuse?  Blown fusible link?  Damaged wire?  Damaged connector?  So instead of fixing that the quick fix was just to bypass the switch to force it to emergency mode since the switch would not stay in that position on its own.  IF there is a blown fuse or otherwise bad connection on that key on feed at least its not going to be back feeding what ever else is on that circuit. 

Maybe the switch went bad first so they did the bypass and because they tied all 3 together it backfed things and blew the fuse or fuses or even fusible links?  So even a new switch would have not got things working again without some real troubleshooting.  Cars have enough stuff that could backfeed with minor glitches but when someone starts directly crossing circuits there could be a lot of collateral damage.  You can get things like an overheated wire in a harness that partially melts into other wires and may or may not cause a fuse to blow but starts crossing more circuits.

Anything else not working or working as it should or any non stock wiring would be clues on where to look. Could just end up being a blown fuse but could also be a pretty big mess.  We have had a few people with 60's cars here where they went after some minor thing and ended up eventually finding things like jumper wires on the back of the fuse box that were a past band aid repair.     

[chrisbutnut]

It seems that the always hot and key on only hot wire are switched. According to my '67 shop manual, the orange/black stripe wire is always hot, and the red/white stripe wire is only hot with the key on. Windows should not operate with key off and switch in normal positions, but should operate with switch held in emergency position.

Yes, that might be the case, however I think the wires would need to be swtiched on the connector that attaches to the back of the window switch.  I'll have to pull it off and look at it.

Thanks for your input!

[chrisbutnut]

I'm having trouble following whats currently going on, is line 1 before the repair and like 2 after? 

I'm also not clear on how this is supposed to work.  Seems like it can't be that complicated.   3 positions?  It can lock into lets say the left position which is 'normal' which connects to a key on source?  It can also lock into the center position which is 'off' so no power connection?  Then it can be manually held to say the right in the 'emergency' position which connects to a constant source? You let go and it springs back to 'off'? 

I think the most important question that needs to be asked and answered is why was it bypassed in the first place.  Someone had to have done that for a reason.  Something they didn't know how to or want to or weren't able to fix at the time.  Was it just that switch that went bad?  Was there an issue with the key on feed?

How did it work when it was bypassed?   With the key or all the time?   Were all 3 wires tied together?   Has anything else changed either started or stopped working since you 'fixed' this?  I doubt that when the switch was working properly that when you went to emergency that it would have fed that constant power back down the key on line.  Its likely that that line was also connected to other systems at the key so things that were supposed to say off would also get powered in emergency mode and since that wasn't the intended path that could have overloaded and stressed things on that emergency feed. 

Thinking about this it seems like the most likely scenario would be that the key on feed failed for some reason.  Blown fuse?  Blown fusible link?  Damaged wire?  Damaged connector?  So instead of fixing that the quick fix was just to bypass the switch to force it to emergency mode since the switch would not stay in that position on its own.  IF there is a blown fuse or otherwise bad connection on that key on feed at least its not going to be back feeding what ever else is on that circuit. 

Maybe the switch went bad first so they did the bypass and because they tied all 3 together it backfed things and blew the fuse or fuses or even fusible links?  So even a new switch would have not got things working again without some real troubleshooting.  Cars have enough stuff that could backfeed with minor glitches but when someone starts directly crossing circuits there could be a lot of collateral damage.  You can get things like an overheated wire in a harness that partially melts into other wires and may or may not cause a fuse to blow but starts crossing more circuits.

Anything else not working or working as it should or any non stock wiring would be clues on where to look. Could just end up being a blown fuse but could also be a pretty big mess.  We have had a few people with 60's cars here where they went after some minor thing and ended up eventually finding things like jumper wires on the back of the fuse box that were a past band aid repair.     

Line 1 and 2 are both after the repair.  The three wires were all wire tied together previously, and the windows operated regardless of whether the ignition was off or on.  I'm not sure why this was done.  I purchased a NOS switch and am using that, so it's not the switch that was bad (I've tried the old and new switches and both have the same operational results).  I am not aware of anything else changing since the wires were reconnected and the switch added back.  And there are no blown fuses.

I believe that in the Normal position, windows should only operate when the ignition is in the 'on' position.  In Locked, windows will not operate at all.  Toggling switch to the Emergency position should allow windows to operate with the key off. 

I agree that this probably needs to be looked into further, however I need to find the right person to do that.  I'm not sure that my current mechanic is the solution, and I am certainly not equipped to do so.

[Julien Abrahams]

I would also traces the wires from the switch onwards. Perhapse somebody got creative at one point and did some "rewiring". Perhapse to get around a broken power window circuit breaker (which is in the fuse box).

[TJ Hopland]

I agree that this probably needs to be looked into further, however I need to find the right person to do that.  I'm not sure that my current mechanic is the solution, and I am certainly not equipped to do so.

Ok this changes things a bit that you are not trying to do this yourself.  I don't think there is anything at all unusual or complicated going on with this system.  Without the diagram someone that works on older (meaning non computer) cars or basic electrical should be able to figure this out and for sure with the diagram it should be pretty easy to figure out whats going on.  Things that raise my eyebrows which doesn't mean anything or anyone is wrong just stands out a bit is how either you and or the 'mechanic' can be confident there are no blown fuses?  Sounds like there isn't a diagram involved so does anyone know how many and the location of all fuses or fuse type devices there are?  Pretty sure by 68 there were multiple fusible links to feed different sub systems and I think breakers were starting to be used.

Something that may help even if you don't plan to do any work yourself is to pick up an original shop manual and just toss it in the car whenever its being worked on so the person doing the work has it handy if/when they need it.  Maybe even pick up 2 copies if you can find them for the right prices.  Get a nice clean one that you can keep for reference and then maybe a more beat up one that may have stains and fingerprints and notes in it.  Or an original and a repro and let the repro be the one that gets beat up since that would in theory be easier and cheaper to replace.  Having one that is kept safe and clean is so if a page goes missing or becomes too damaged to read you can refer to the reference copy to still get the information.     

[chrisbutnut]

Ok this changes things a bit that you are not trying to do this yourself.  I don't think there is anything at all unusual or complicated going on with this system.  Without the diagram someone that works on older (meaning non computer) cars or basic electrical should be able to figure this out and for sure with the diagram it should be pretty easy to figure out whats going on.  Things that raise my eyebrows which doesn't mean anything or anyone is wrong just stands out a bit is how either you and or the 'mechanic' can be confident there are no blown fuses?  Sounds like there isn't a diagram involved so does anyone know how many and the location of all fuses or fuse type devices there are?  Pretty sure by 68 there were multiple fusible links to feed different sub systems and I think breakers were starting to be used.

Something that may help even if you don't plan to do any work yourself is to pick up an original shop manual and just toss it in the car whenever its being worked on so the person doing the work has it handy if/when they need it.  Maybe even pick up 2 copies if you can find them for the right prices.  Get a nice clean one that you can keep for reference and then maybe a more beat up one that may have stains and fingerprints and notes in it.  Or an original and a repro and let the repro be the one that gets beat up since that would in theory be easier and cheaper to replace.  Having one that is kept safe and clean is so if a page goes missing or becomes too damaged to read you can refer to the reference copy to still get the information.     

I do have a couple of shop manuals, and I've checked the fuse box myself for blown fuses.  I guess I could have missed something.  I will look at it again to make sure, and will see if I notice anything that appears to have been rerouted or rewired to bypass something.

I appreciate your assistance!

[TJ Hopland]

How are you checking the fuses?  Just visually?  Or some sort of tester?  And are you checking every fuse or did the manuals point to a specific one?    IF you have testing tools and can follow the diagrams in the manuals this should not be too hard to figure out.  I don't have a 68 manual so I can't help or see if there is something more complex going on but I would not think it would be that complex of a circuit. 

Test light or volt meter you should be able to test the wires going into the switch.  See if one is always live and if another one comes on and off with the key.  Ideally do that with the switch disconnected so it not going to confuse things.   The 3rd wire which should never show voltage especially with the switch disconnected should then be the one feeding the rest of the switches.

Where this could get more confusing is if they got more complex and lock only locks out the remote switches.  Just off the top of my head I can't see that working with just 3 wires and combined other functions of the switch but not knowing for sure how its supposed to work there is just a lot of guessing.

If you want to keep working at this yourself let us know what you have for test equipment, volt meter or test light and let us know if you know how to use it/them to test fuses.  We can tell you how to use those tools if you don't already know and how to test the switches. 

[chrisbutnut]

How are you checking the fuses?  Just visually?  Or some sort of tester?  And are you checking every fuse or did the manuals point to a specific one?    IF you have testing tools and can follow the diagrams in the manuals this should not be too hard to figure out.  I don't have a 68 manual so I can't help or see if there is something more complex going on but I would not think it would be that complex of a circuit. 

Test light or volt meter you should be able to test the wires going into the switch.  See if one is always live and if another one comes on and off with the key.  Ideally do that with the switch disconnected so it not going to confuse things.   The 3rd wire which should never show voltage especially with the switch disconnected should then be the one feeding the rest of the switches.

Where this could get more confusing is if they got more complex and lock only locks out the remote switches.  Just off the top of my head I can't see that working with just 3 wires and combined other functions of the switch but not knowing for sure how its supposed to work there is just a lot of guessing.

If you want to keep working at this yourself let us know what you have for test equipment, volt meter or test light and let us know if you know how to use it/them to test fuses.  We can tell you how to use those tools if you don't already know and how to test the switches. 

I have a volt meter.  I assume putting the positive probe on one side of the fuse and the negative on the other side isn't going to tell me whether the fuse is good or not.  I'm pretty sure the windows are on a dedicated fuse, but will have to double check the shop manual. 

[Cadman-iac]

I have a volt meter.  I assume putting the positive probe on one side of the fuse and the negative on the other side isn't going to tell me whether the fuse is good or not.  I'm pretty sure the windows are on a dedicated fuse, but will have to double check the shop manual. 

Chris,

 You can use the voltmeter two ways to check the fuses.
 The first way is to check for continuity by connecting to each end of the fuse on your ohms scale. If you show a reading, the fuse is good.

 The other way is to set the meter to volts, and with the negative lead on a ground, anywhere with a screw or bare metal will do, and the positive lead on the fuse, first one end, then the other end of the fuse, you're looking for voltage at the fuse from the battery or ignition switch. If you're showing voltage on one side, if the fuse is good, you should have voltage on the other side.
 As was previously mentioned, this circuit is run through the ignition switch, so in normal position, key on, you are supposed to have 12 volts.

 Do you have a schematic of your car?
 If not, I do. I can take a picture of it and post it here if you'd like, just let me know.

 I know electrical issues are a pain. Just went through a bunch of things on another make vehicle myself. Lots and lots of fun breaking my back under the dash.

 Good luck with your repairs.

 Rick

[TJ Hopland]

Note if you are doing the ohm check of the fuses this has to be done with the fuse removed from the fuse holder.

Having and understanding the drawing may be more critical than I thought.  I started another thread asking about the history of this emergency function that I never heard of before and in there a member stated that in the 'lock' position only the remote switches are disabled, the master/drivers should still function with the key on.  This means the switch in question isn't simply routing either key or battery power to the whole window subsystem. 

Not having a drawing myself I don't know for sure but typically power windows are more complicated than you would expect because of the up/down modes required and the master and remote switches.  On all but the drivers window that only has the single switch the other switches have to perform double duty.  When you operate them they obviously have to route the power to get up or down which also isn't as easy as you would first expect but when not operating they have to be able to pass the power from the other switch in case they are operated. 

Because of that pass through when not being operated mode you can have say a non working passenger window from one switch but the other could still work so you go after the non working switch and it doesn't solve the problem because the fault is in the working switch.  That's not likely whats going on here I'm just mentioning it so people understand there is more going on with this system than you may expect. 

Perhaps at some point in the past with this car someone had the issue I described above where the good switch was the bad one and they ended up down the wrong path and ended up in the emergency lock out circuit?   If anyone wants to send me the drawing I am now very curious how they did that switch.   

[Cadman-iac]

  Here's what I've got on the 67. It's an overall view of everything, plus individual circuits separately.
Hope this helps out.

Rick







 Edit:  sorry, everything posted upside down. Not sure why.

[chrisbutnut]

Here's what I've got on the 67. It's an overall view of everything, plus individual circuits separately.
Hope this helps out.

Rick







 Edit:  sorry, everything posted upside down. Not sure why.

Thanks for the drawings, Rick.  Did these come out of the Service Manual?  I have that, but if not, I'd love to figure out how I can get originals (or paper copies) of these so I can reference and/or provide to my mechanic to reference.  Mine is a 68, but I would think they would be similar.

Thank you also for your tips on the voltmeter.

[Cadman-iac]

 No, unfortunately I don't have a service manual for the 67. These are out of a Motors Vacuum and Wiring diagram book for 67 to 71.

 I took the pictures outside in sunlight hoping to get the best possible results, but after posting it, I'm not sure what happened.
 I may have to screenshot the pictures and repost them if you can't read them.

 I don't know if they changed anything for 68 or not, but since the cars are almost identical except for cosmetic differences, and of course the engine,  and disc brakes. But who knows, there's always some little things that can cause problems if you don't know about it. I ran into this problem with my two Suburbans. An 88 and a 90. You would think that since they are identical except for the headlights and grille, everything else would be the same. WRONG!!  In changing the fuel system from throttle body to carburetor, I eliminated the computer and related stuff, but I only had a 1990 schematic to go by.
 Thinking no problem, it's all the same, I began plucking wires out of the firewall connector, but when I was looking at the details in the schematic I noticed that the connector pin layout was off slightly. They changed the connector configuration for the 90's Burb, so I ended up ordering a schematic for the 88.

 Stupid little things like that will bite you in the arse every time.

 Let me know if you need a better picture, be glad to ablige.

 Rick

[Highwayman68]

Hi Chris,

Look at pages 12-94 & 95 in the shop manual for wiring diagrams specific to the windows like Rick provided.

[chrisbutnut]

Hi Chris,

Look at pages 12-94 & 95 in the shop manual for wiring diagrams specific to the windows like Rick provided.

Thank you!  Happy New Year!