Shill bidding

[Eric 21241]

Ive been reading these articles on shill bidding, I have to agree with BJ that the responsibility is mainly on the bidder.
 All we need is more control, at this rate soon new cars will have little speakers that tell us what we can and can’t wear do or think before they start.
  Ebay used to be more fun when it wasn’t regulated so much, a bidder could discuss with each other, one could review others feedback easier. It was all around much easier to navigate.
I think a good solution is to stay out of the bidding wars, bid what you think it’s worth and use a “snipe” program to make your bids automatically at the last couple seconds.
There are several out there just google “snipe”.
This cuts out all the aggravation and worry and you won’t be bid up during the auction.

[Ralph Messina CLC 4937]

Eric,

It seems whichever snipe site one uses they have your eBay ID and password. What’s to stop someone from hacking in, stealing the ID and bidding on some $200M Eldorado Brougham in your name? Am I too suspicious or missing something?

Ralph

[Michael Stamps 19507]

I am a confirmed snipper but I do all of my hunting manually.  Getting a program to do it takes the fun out of it.  

Stampie

PS - Best Ive done is 0 seconds but reserve wasnt hit.  Best on a real win was 2 seconds.

[Mauro]

Eric,
You couldnt be more right.I wouldnt use ebay any other way.Using a snipe tool is by far the best way to bid on ebay without bidding more than you origanlly wanted to.Just put your max bid in and youre guaranteed to win if youre the highest bidder.It might take the fun out it but who wants to get into bidding wars or get up at 3.00 am to maually snipe something.
Im sure this would cut down a lot of the shill bidding.Genrally,shill bidding only starts after genuine bids have been placed.

[JIM CLC # 15000]

02-17-07
ALL, I dont know why IAM getting into this discussion since I dont have a dog in this fight. But, Ill just say that the FTC doesnt look at the pratice of "Shill" bidding lightly. My advise would be to anyone that is into Shill Bidding, STOP now and just hope that the FTC doesnt find-out about it.
For those that dont know, FTC=Federal Trade Commission.
Good Luck,JIM

[nasser]

Hello every one:
  I am using ebay since Aug.99 and I usually like to bid at the very end of the auction for reasons you know about. But, I never heared of a "sniping program" that does the bidding on your behalf at the end of the auction, until now. Please, direct me -and others too- to such program or give any leads. Google was mentioned in this thread, does it offer a feature for doing the bidding? Please inform us of the pros and cons of using the "sniping program". Best regards.
Nasser,

[Geoff Newcombe #4719]

You can put "eBay sniping" in your GOOGLE search engine (or whatever  search engine you use) and over on the right hand side you will see links to several sniping programs, this one was first up when I GOOGLED sniping ---- http://www.stealthbid.com TARGET=_blank>www.StealthBid.com  

However, like Stampie, I prefer to do my own sniping.  If you are still on dial up then I would imagine you will need a sniping service, if that is what you want to do.

[nasser]

Thanks for the lead, interesting stealthbid site and I joined too. Regards.
Nasser,

[John CLC 22641]

Rubbish! You should be ashamed of yourself for blaming the victim of such an obvious and intentional fraud. Yes, you can be brilliant and self-reliant and, in the process, avoid all risks. That, however, is quite different from being taken advantage of in what supposedly is a fair and honest transaction but, instead, is anything but fair and honest. The number of folks coming down on the "side" of the malefactors in this debate is, itself, an interesting commentary on how some view what was once taken for granted, i.e., honesty. Its probably part of the Ipod generation, the idea that cheating is only cheating if you get caught. If you aren’t caught, cheating is simply a way of showing how deficient and stupid others are in this modern world. Are we passing this nonsense to our kids or is this something peculiar to our own generation? Yes, the sniping services offer something of a market solution to shill bidding, in that they discourage interim bidding until the final second(s). Assuming a shill outbids the rest of the snipers (or snipes, perhaps), I would expect a "second-chance" offer to be forthcoming, thus reinstating the fraud should someone, i.e., the penultimate sniper, be suckered in. The sniping services indeed may offer some but not much protection against shill bidders but only because it forces them out in the open, where one may be able to see the fraud more clearly. Nonetheless, should you still want the item offered in a second chance sale, you would likely be paying an artificially created higher price because of the fraudulent actions of the seller and shill. This surely does not reduce in any way the dishonesty factor but, to some extent, it does reduce the extreme effects of the shill process. To my CLC colleagues and guests who would "defend" the practice of shill bidding, or sniping, for that matter, please do not insult yourselves or the rest of us by trying to dress it up with pseudo political, philosophical, or idealistic apologia. Its fraud, theft, dishonest, and in many instances, unlawful, plain and simple, comma, period. Call it what it is and, if you dare, defend it for what it is. In return, we will at least respect you for having a modicum of personal, if not professional, integrity.

[Geoff Newcombe #4719]

I agree completely where it concerns shill bidding, but that has been around nearly since the first auction ever held, who knows when, it is nothing new whatsoever.  We see more of it now because eBay and other online auctions have come on the scene and many more people are participating.  Shill bidding is a low-lifes game.
 
Sniping is another matter entirely and is not against eBays rules.  I DO realize it is frustrating and maddening to those who lose an auction when an item is sniped, been there, but, thats life.    

[John CLC 22641]

Geoff: I agree with you but consider, too, that the sniper-shill has the best of both worlds. He or she gets to top off the bidding after the highest legit bid is in. Then, the sniper-shills comrade, the co-conspirator in this drama, gets to offer the next in line a "second chance." The next in line, told perhaps that the "winner" couldnt come up with the cash or some other bs story, is then enticed into buying the item that might not have reached the bid limit placed. Yes, an honest, independent sniper who is not in cahoots with a dishonest seller is indeed living up to the rules and is OK in my book. As one of our colleagues said the other day, he does the same thing manually and enjoys taking the risks of placing his bid at the last second. Theres nothing wrong with that practice as long as the sniper is acting alone.

[Joe Abernathy #17524]

If I understand it right a shill is defined as such:  A person who bids on an item with no intention of buying the item but is solely interested in gaining a higher profit for the seller.

That being said I am curious how John feels about the following.

John decides to sell his 59 Biarritz.  He has a lot of money invested and figures he needs to get $100k for it.  He decides to sell it at a BJ type auction.  He is not allowed to place a reserve on his car.  The buyer and seller premiums are set at 10percent.  The car bids up to $50k and dies.  He cant afford a $55k loss ($50k plus $5k seller premium) so he bids $51k and wins the bidding.  He has to pay $10,200 in buyer and seller premiums but he still owns the car and can try to sell it somewhere else to recover his loss.  Thats better than a $55k loss and no car.  Is John wrong to do this?  I know, you can call it a "Buy Back" or "Buy In" or whatever but the fact remains the same.  John is bidding on an item he has no intention of buying (he cant buy what he already owns) with the sole purpose of gaining a higher profit for the seller (John).

Lets say that John then takes his car to another auction that allows him to place a $100k reserve on it.  The bidding again stops at $50k.  The bidder at $50k is willing to bid more but no one bids against him and he isnt going to bid against himself.  The car is about ot roll off the block as a "No sale" when Johns buddy shills the bidding to get it closer to the reserve.  After all John isnt going to let it go for less than $100k anyway.  Johns buddy bids it up to $99k and stops, the other bidder goes to $100k and wins the car. Is this wrong?  Or should John let the car roll as a No sale and try again somewhere else?

Or...lets say at the last auction Johns buddy drops out at $99k and the other bidder stays at $98k.  The car "No Sales" and leaves the block.  In the parking lot John decides he would rather take a $2,000 loss than try to sell the car again.  He goes to the auctioneer and tells them he has dropped his reserve to $98k.  They announce it to the audience and the $98k bidder steps up and buys the car.   AKA a "Second Chance Offer".

I would also like to know how to tell if you are bidding against a shill or a ligitimate bidder.  That information could save me from myself on eBay.

BJ

[John CLC 22641]

BJ: There are various types of auctions and you describe at least two. The type known as the "English" auction that you describe is one that is frequently used on eBay. That auction begins with a reserve price and moves incrementally toward it or beyond it. At the end of the set time, if the reserve price isnt met, the auction is cancelled. The variation you offered of someone outbidding the highest bidder for his/her own item, thus avoiding a significant loss, can work with a non-reserve auction but, as you point out, theres a cost to doing this, namely the commission paid for aborting the deal. Is it lawful? I suppose it is unless the rules of the specific aution specify that owners are prohibited from bidding on their own items. Most states license auctioneers and auctions must follow certain standards of fairness and accuracy. In your second example you provide a motive for the fraud, i.e., to avoid a big loss, but this does not legitimize it. An auction presents risks as well as opportunities for sellers. The person who decides to place something for sale via an aution is betting that the market will overvalue the item. This happens in some but not all cases. When it does not happen, the seller cannot simply create a self-serving fraud to avoid a loss. After all, he or she entered the aution with the knowledge that there were risks involved. The Federal Trade Commmission describes this as follows: "Know Your Legal Obligations: Under federal law, you’re required to advertise your product or service and the terms of the sale honestly and accurately. You can’t place “shill” bids on your item to boost the price or offer false testimonials about yourself in the comment section of Internet auction sites. You’re prohibited from auctioning illegal goods; some auction sites have further prohibitions on sales of other items. While many auction sites monitor to ensure that illegal items are not being offered, the responsibility for ensuring that a sale is legal rests with the seller and buyer. Some auction sites post a list of prohibited items." (See: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/online/auctions.htm TARGET=_blank>http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/online/auctions.htm
As for how to know when a shill enters a deal, thats not easy, believe me. EBay provides some tips, including checking out the sellers history and his or her other bids. Even if you follow all the tips, youre not likely to ferret out more than the occasional newbie shill. The pros, like any other professional crook out there, have the edge and probably always will.

[joe]

As an occasional Ebay seller, I would like to say that I love sniping programs, and am hoping MORE start using them soon! I cant believe some of the bizzare prices that have been paid for some of my stuff! THANKS SNIPERS!

[John Morris.]

John, you have explained with golden clarity what I also think about the subject. Honesty and integrity. Bottom line. Most shill bidding is the crooked type, BJs example of the seller not wanting to lose $55 grand is the other type, still dishonest and he should not auction the car at a house with no reserve allowed. Bidders should only be serious buyers, not secret collaborators of the seller.

[Joe Abernathy #17524]

You say:

"In your second example you provide a motive for the fraud, i.e., to avoid a big loss..."  John CLC 22641

Actually there is NO threat of loss in the second example.  The shill is only getting the bid closer to the reserve.  If the reserve isnt met the item doesnt sell.

As stated before, I am well aware of how auctions work.  What I want to know is how YOU (John CLC 22641) feel about the given scenarios.  You are very adamant about shill bidding.  I have given you three instances involving the practice and you tell me about the FTC.

Shill bidding is a REALITY.  Sometimes it has its rightful place, as I have demonstrated.  Sometimes it is abused.  When it is abused it is wrong and unlawful.  But as I have stated before, just like crime, it ISNT going away.  

Again I quote you:  "As for how to know when a shill enters a deal, thats not easy, believe me. EBay provides some tips, including checking out the sellers history and his or her other bids. Even if you follow all the tips, youre not likely to ferret out more than the occasional newbie shill. The pros, like any other professional crook out there, have the edge and probably always will."

So the question is: How does one protect ones self from the "crook that has the edge and probably always will"?

Answer: DON"T BID MORE THAN YOU ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR AN ITEM "plain and simple, comma, period."  That way it doesnt matter whether you are bidding against a shill or a ligitimate bidder.

You can ask for intervention from eBAy, the goverment or whoever, but it will do no good. No one is as concerned about your well being as yourself.  And no one has more control over your actions than yourself.  Independence, rugged individualism, and self reliance are a big part of the foundation of this great country.

As far as the post from John Morris (cmon John CLC 22641 what is your last name?) You say:  "he should not auction the car at a house with no reserve allowed."  Since you think that John CLC 22641 has spoken with "golden clarity"  I will again quote him:  " The next in line...is then enticed into buying the item..."

Have you never thought that the seller may have been "enticed" into auctioning the car at a "house with no reserve allowed" by the auction house staff?  Cant he claim victim status too and call kings X???

Acually I didnt even want to respond to this thread but I was "enticed" by Johns post.  I guess that makes me a victim too.  Aaaaaggggghhhhh...SOMEBODY HELP ME!!!!!!!

IM ABOUT TO MAX OUT ALL MY CREDIT CARDS... AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE IM LIABLE TO DO!!!!!!!  IM A VICTIM.....HEEEELLLLLLPPP!!!

Bad(Completely Out of Control)Jack.