Goodbye Pontiac!

[Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397]

No Buicks imported by GM since 1953, and no Cadillacs since 1940 or maybe 1941 as we were in war mode starting 1939.

Bruce.

Bruce, did you ever get Oldsmobiles down there?

[Brian McKee]

I think I may have told this story before, but in 1986, my Economics professor at Ohio University predicted that in 20 to 30 years, Oldsmobile, Pontiac and Buick would all be gone. He said that for the long term profitability of GM, they should keep only Chevrolet and Cadillac.   He's been right on two of them being gone so far.

Buick may just be next to go.  I don't think that the Economics professor, considering his track record so far in predictions and economic sense, could be too far off.

So, we need to keep watching to see what happens to Buick.......

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Bruce, did you ever get Oldsmobiles down there?

I believe the last Oldsmobiles were in 1953.

I remember seeing some 1948 Oldsmobiles, but cannot recall ever seeing any later ones here in Tasmania.

Don't forget that we had the Holden commencing in 1948, so there was no real need to have too many different GM vehicles here.   Just enough to supply the Luxury and "Big" car market.   Chevrolet and Pontiac survived until 1968.

Bruce.

[Carl Schreiber]

You mean I'm the only conspiracy theorist out here?

This a nothing more than a payback by the administration to his constituency groups to take over the American automobile industry (which they LOATHE) and re-form it from the ground up in the vision of the Sierra Club and Nancy Pelosi.  There is no other reason to keep throwing money at the company - it was to take over the company (look at al the banks trying to give back TARP money...)  Under bankruptcy restructuring, the General could've come back bigger and stronger that ever - especially when you consider the world-class quality of current GM products. 

Once the adinistration had (financial) control, the first thing they did is cut all the 'halo' cars - no more XLR, no more CTS-V, no more   SS Chevrolets.  The one thing nobody has yet to mention is that Pontiac was long-considered the General's performance division - I believe that's why (the new owners thought) it had to go. 

That clears the way for them to build the euro-sytyle electric slot cars that the American motoring public neither wants nor will buy (and that have been proven time and time again to be un-safe), and that will cost more (in carbon-capped electricity making more pollution than a modern internal combustion engine) to charge than a 25-gallon fill-up at $4.50/gal.  Well, at least their intentions were good - I think they like to refer to the (inevitable) failure as 'unintended consequences'...

Like most here, they'll have to pry my dual Carter WCFB's from my cold dead hands...

Goodbye General Motors, hello Government Motors...

PS - now that they own GM, does that make them 'car guys'?  Has anyone in this administration ever changed a spark plug?  Any subscriptions to Car and Driver?  How about Motor Trend?  I think I' going to be urpy - and I haven't even had breakfast yet...

[Jim Salmi #21340]

I shudder to think of what the future holds for our beloved marquee.  A glorified golf cart with a vee and crest on the front to pretend the glamour is still there.  Certainly, style and luxury will be politically verboten, since the greens will regard those golf carts as only a temporary expedient until they can convince (brainwash) the public into embracing the true ecstasy of public transit.

[Otto Skorzeny]

If this asinine restructuring deal is adopted, the UAW and the Feds will on 89% of GM.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/04/government_uaw_to_own_89_perce.html

If that happens, it's only a matter of time before the entire company ceases to exist. They're already being coerced into building that stupid Chevy Volt which their own analysts say will be a money loser. The government can't do anything right, why does anyone think they can successfully operate a car maker? The UAW will only act in it's own self interest, not the interest of the business.

[Derek]

Hi All,
It is my understanding that Buick sells very well in China and Pontiac is not known there.

Yes, Buick is huge overseas.

I'm not too sad to see Pontiac go.  They could have done a better job of keeping it viable.  I feel for the folks who will be losing their jobs, but the brand as it stands has been sucking hardcore since the 1980s.

[Carl Schreiber]

Yes, Buick is huge overseas.

I'm not too sad to see Pontiac go.  They could have done a better job of keeping it viable.  I feel for the folks who will be losing their jobs, but the brand as it stands has been sucking hardcore since the 1980s.

Derek -

You're right to an extent - but Pontiac HAS been kept viable, for at least the last 10 years - and I'm talking about the quality of the product (ie, G6, G8).  Frankly, all of GM has been operating under the burden of the perception you relate since the late 60's.  That's 40 years and they're STILL being beaten to death by that perception - which today isn't accurate OR fair.  I personally think that perception (ie, GM's made nothing but junk since the late 60's...) is at least partially responsible for customer flight from GM showrooms to the imports.  Funny how that perception is older than most people who believe it.  I mean, look how many people (who believe the GM = BAD CARS from 1970's) buy Hyundais now - anybody remember how BAD their first US cars
were?  Somehow they seem to have avoided the 'Hyundai makes junk' stigma... 

Remember that colossal GM failure the V-8/6/4?  EVERY manufacturer now has their own version - now that computing power (engine management)
is a mature technology, the concept works and saves fuel.  It's disturbing that people think that means that GM has builds junk. 

Hummer, GMC, and Saturn are next - ever wonder why SAAB isn't getting the Pontiac/Oldsobile treatment?  Look at how many east-coast effite elitist snobs drive SAAB's - Government Motors doesn't seem too concerned about the 'profitability' of THAT division.  And wasn't Saturn established and founded to cater to the environmentally-responsible small-car crowd?

One last thought - who's going to design the new Governent Motors cars?  One thing's for sure - they're saving money on all the new models by phasing out turn signals - when the government gets done with them, they'll only turn left anyway...

This would be WAAAY more fun if we could get Derek, Otto, Jim S and the rest of the crew to the nearest tavern to discuss this over adult beverages...

Carl

[Wynn Moore]

You mean I'm the only conspiracy theorist out here?

This a nothing more than a payback by the administration to his constituency groups to take over the American automobile industry (which they LOATHE) and re-form it from the ground up in the vision of the Sierra Club and Nancy Pelosi. 

Not just the automobile industry, also the banks, health care, education, etc etc etc.  They want to take over the country, much like Hitler wanted to take over the world.

[Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397]

I believe the last Oldsmobiles were in 1953.

I remember seeing some 1948 Oldsmobiles, but cannot recall ever seeing any later ones here in Tasmania.

Don't forget that we had the Holden commencing in 1948, so there was no real need to have too many different GM vehicles here.   Just enough to supply the Luxury and "Big" car market.   Chevrolet and Pontiac survived until 1968.

Bruce.

Well, Bruce, it appears to me that GM in Australia for the past fifty or so years is a lot like what GM will be in the US in the future...if it survives at all. I grew up in a "GM family" (my parents bought their first car, a new '37 Oldsmobile, just after they married and my dad had the keys to his '83 Ninety-Eight in his hand when he died) and the implosion of this great company is hard to watch.

[Wynn Moore]

Well, Bruce, it appears to me that GM in Australia for the past fifty or so years is a lot like what GM will be in the US in the future...if it survives at all. I grew up in a "GM family" (my parents bought their first car, a new '37 Oldsmobile, just after they married and my dad had the keys to his '83 Ninety-Eight in his hand when he died) and the implosion of this great company is hard to watch.

I guess it's easy for all of us to play "Monday Morning Quarterback" with the reason for the slow decline of GM.  What boogles my mind the most, is that up until recently GM was chugging along OK, then all of a sudden, almost overnight, they have their hand out, asking for money, and are on the verge of bankruptcy.

While I didn't like hearing about the demise of Pontiac, nor did I want to see Oldsmobile fall by the wayside, I think it does make good business sense in today's current economic situation and car market.  Years ago when GM had 50+% of the car market, they could get away with having so many models.  Today, it just dont make sense to have so many divisions with so many models.

[Chris Conklin]

...up until recently GM was chugging along OK, then all of a sudden, almost overnight, they have their hand out, asking for money, and are on the verge of bankruptcy.

Also in recent times there had been predictions (with quite a bit of certainty) that FoMoCo was in dire straights and would perish soon. Now they're the only ones left with their hands in their own pockets. Not floating along comfortably, but still afloat and under their own steam. In a way I think they've stayed afloat with the same business model as Cadillac... selling lots of trucks.

[Wynn Moore]

Also in recent times there had been predictions (with quite a bit of certainty) that FoMoCo was in dire straights and would perish soon. Now they're the only ones left with their hands in their own pockets. Not floating along comfortably, but still afloat and under their own steam. In a way I think they've stayed afloat with the same business model as Cadillac... selling lots of trucks.

....in addition to not having more models they they need, and minimum redundancy with their products.  GM still insists on overlapping models such as the Chevy Tranverse, GMC Arcadia, and the Buick Enclave.  One basic vehicle in 3 different versions. 

[Otto Skorzeny]

Amazingly, Chrysler got it's creditors to accept $2 billion on a $6 billion+ debt. They might actually be able to pull out of their nose dive.

I wish GM would just file ch11 and tell the Feds to stick their bailout money and tell the UAW where to go. In the end I believe it's the only way for GM to survive as a truly viable private enterprise. A GM with Federal and UAW control will be an American version of British Leyland. They'll die a lingering death trying to sell sub-marginal losers.

[Derek]

Derek -

You're right to an extent - but Pontiac HAS been kept viable, for at least the last 10 years - and I'm talking about the quality of the product (ie, G6, G8).  Frankly, all of GM has been operating under the burden of the perception you relate since the late 60's.  That's 40 years and they're STILL being beaten to death by that perception - which today isn't accurate OR fair.  I personally think that perception (ie, GM's made nothing but junk since the late 60's...) is at least partially responsible for customer flight from GM showrooms to the imports.  Funny how that perception is older than most people who believe it.  I mean, look how many people (who believe the GM = BAD CARS from 1970's) buy Hyundais now - anybody remember how BAD their first US cars
were?  Somehow they seem to have avoided the 'Hyundai makes junk' stigma... 

Remember that colossal GM failure the V-8/6/4?  EVERY manufacturer now has their own version - now that computing power (engine management)
is a mature technology, the concept works and saves fuel.  It's disturbing that people think that means that GM has builds junk. 

Hummer, GMC, and Saturn are next - ever wonder why SAAB isn't getting the Pontiac/Oldsobile treatment?  Look at how many east-coast effite elitist snobs drive SAAB's - Government Motors doesn't seem too concerned about the 'profitability' of THAT division.  And wasn't Saturn established and founded to cater to the environmentally-responsible small-car crowd?

One last thought - who's going to design the new Governent Motors cars?  One thing's for sure - they're saving money on all the new models by phasing out turn signals - when the government gets done with them, they'll only turn left anyway...

This would be WAAAY more fun if we could get Derek, Otto, Jim S and the rest of the crew to the nearest tavern to discuss this over adult beverages...

Carl

One big problem I have with GM is that even in their low-end cars, they are option-heavy.  I thought HARD about buying a Pontiac G-5, but I couldn't get one without power windows or OnStar.  I don't want or need those things, but they put them in anyway.

I ended up with a Dodge Caliber with roll-up windows, only options were 6-disc CD changer (which was not on the build sheet, think it was put in by accident!) and air conditioning and the mid-sized (2.0L) engine required for the auto trans model.

Having watched lots of people deal with bad power window regulators in recent model cars and having seen mom and dad go 16 years on a Jeep with roll-ups without ever touching them made an impression, LOL.

GM had the misfortune of giving a lot of new technology a start -- but having the problems associated with that.  The HT4100 -- aluminum block -- great idea, poor execution, everyone uses aluminum blocks, etc., now.  But what sticks in the consumer's head is "I had a GM with that which was crap!" 

I'd love to meet up for drinks sometime.  Where are you located?  Southern PA.

[Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397]

....in addition to not having more models they they need, and minimum redundancy with their products.  GM still insists on overlapping models such as the Chevy Tranverse, GMC Arcadia, and the Buick Enclave.  One basic vehicle in 3 different versions. 

Actually, it's even worse than that:  the Saturn Outlook is the fourth one.

[Wynn Moore]

Actually, it's even worse than that:  the Saturn Outlook is the fourth one.

Right you are!  How about the Isuzu Ascender, which is almost exactly like the GMC Envoy, which is like the Chevy Trailblazer?

[Dewane Ollech]

What hurts my feelings is that GM has no qualms with dismissing Pontiac, and Oldsmobile before that, but clings to the likes of SAAB, as if that brand means something. I never gave a crap for Saturn either.
I tell you this friends, I can see the end of Cadillac (which would totally kill me), because Buick luxury is there, and Chevrolet will stand to the last.
Just look how the CTS and STS look identical. SUV sales like the Escalade are hurting, and theres not much left to choose from except the beautiful DTS.
I'm so depressed, I could spit.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

The day I landed in Los Angeles in June 2002, at the start of a 4 Month driving tour of USA and Canada, I saw a Cadillac Escalade.   Seeing this overpriced Chevrolet, I just knew that this was the end.

Just like when The Chevrolet ElCamino became a GMC badge.

There are just way tooooooo many models and makes out there in the market place to survive.

Bruce.

[David #19063]

The day I landed in Los Angeles in June 2002, at the start of a 4 Month driving tour of USA and Canada, I saw a Cadillac Escalade.   Seeing this overpriced Chevrolet, I just knew that this was the end.

Just like when The Chevrolet ElCamino became a GMC badge.

There are just way tooooooo many models and makes out there in the market place to survive.

Bruce.

Yes, and I wonder why there still is Chevy Trucks and GMC?

Following their same philosophy of getting rid of Oldsmobile and Pontiac, one of these should definitely be cut...and soon!