1959 Cadillac Brakes Issue

[tzurick]

Sure, why not? It would serve a dual purpose. I have mixed emotions about the disk brakes. Do they really make a big difference in stopping power in normal driving?

I suggest that you buy the parts from a reliable source that did not have them made in a junk shop in China. I also wonder if the disks get the white walls dirtier. Seems like I read that somewhere.

I would say no gain in stopping power unless you upgrade to larger rotors and multi piston calipers which then you can't use the stock rims with hub caps.  To me the advantages in brake fade and brake pull are why I'm doing it.  All modern cars use disc so if drums were so great with auto adjusters then why they switch?  I think brake fade/pulling is why. With all the stop lights these days the brake fade is a real concern if you drive the car a lot or live in a mountainous region.

[tzurick]

Would it be possible to get a new master cylinder that has the valves built in? A new master would be cheaper then two RCV and i would not have to see them when there installed inline with the brake lines.

Visually it seems to me you could use the master cyclinder that Jeff used from Midwest with the built in check valves if the alignment to the booster is the same.  There are obviously master cyclinders with the valves built in I just don't know what model cars used them.  I'm guessing Midwest may be able to help you in this area finding a compatible master cyclinder for a 68 booster with built in check valves.

[Coupe Deville]

Ok so I think i am going to be putting in two of the RCV. I would be putting them inline. My question is how far away can I put them from the M/C? If I could cut them on the frame rail somewhere so no one could see them that would be awesome. And I would need a RCV that is for drum brakes and capable of 10 psi correct? Thanks

[tzurick]

I wouldn't think it wouldn't matter as long as it's between the wheel cylinder and master cylinder.  The purpose is to keep the wheel cylinder pressurized from what I understand.  They don't keep the master cylinder reservoirs full of pressure just the lines.  10 PSI is correct for drums.

[Bill Caddyshack]

I would say no gain in stopping power unless you upgrade to larger rotors and multi piston calipers which then you can't use the stock rims with hub caps.  To me the advantages in brake fade and brake pull are why I'm doing it.  All modern cars use disc so if drums were so great with auto adjusters then why they switch?  I think brake fade/pulling is why. With all the stop lights these days the brake fade is a real concern if you drive the car a lot or live in a mountainous region.

Tim, I grew up with these cars and remember when disk brakes became available. I am going purely on memory here, but disk brakes were just becoming popular on racing cars in the mid-1960s. It seems that this feature was put on passenger cars more for advertising purposes than actual need.  "Race cars have disk brakes, OUR cars have disk brakes."

Cadillac has great brakes when adjusted and maintained. I know many people who daily drive with drum brakes, several who put 20,000 miles a year or more on their old cars. Some live in mountainous regions and all drive in traffic.

I know one guy who has put somewhere around a hundred thousand miles on a 1956. It has points in the distributor, a mechanical fuel pump, drum brakes, single MC, a generator, basically the same configuration it had when it left the factory in 1956.

I, personally don't see the need for disk as long as you drive respectfully according to the car's age, and with the weight, suspension, steering, you cannot whip them around like you can a more modern car -- disk brakes or not.

I also have concerns that manufacturers of disk brake replacement systems may not have the quality control Cadillac had. I know top restorers who won't use some aftermarket brake drums because the quality is not up to par with Cadillac.

My wife and I recently took our 1959 for a long drive in the mountains of north Georgia. The brakes worked fine.

I am sure there are strong opinions on the other side, and that is fine with me, but I don't see the need. But if people are concerned, go for the disks. 60% of your stopping power is in the front brakes but that still leave 40% in the rear. The same logic applies. If you are going to front disks, why not all around?

For me and my family the drums are just fine. My cars have the brakes they were born with. They have stopped these cars for as much as 57 years. I can find no noticeable damage from front collisions that could have resulted from brake failure.

I don't see the need, but I am open to hear more empirical evidence from people who do. 

[INTMD8]

I agree that discs aren't necessary, especially considering what will fit under the stock wheels.

(Not sure what swept area on the stock drums is vs cavalier disc brakes?).

My 70 Malibu weighed 3800lbs and had the original drum brakes. At the dragstrip it would stop the car from 126-130mph perfectly and I brought that car to the track at least a dozen times.  That's certainly more strain than I will ever see with my 59.

Would they start to fade with repeated stops? Probably, but I bet a small set of disc brakes would as well.

[Glen]

I agree with Bill.  I drove my 61 Coupe DeVille for many years with no problem. 

With proper maintenance drum brakes work very well.  I drove that car fast and abrupt. On more than one occasion I have locked all four wheels and came to a nice straight stop.  How much better do you need the brakes to be?   

[Coupe Deville]

To awnser Glens question, I totally agree with you. The drum brakes are very good at stopping m car. I am just replacing the master cylinder too because the booster was already bad. I have another question too. I just bought 2 residual check valves for drum brakes. My question is how close do they have to be mounted to the M/C? I already know we're to mount the front RCV inline but the mounting place I had in mind for the rear brakes  is in the rear right before the rear junction block. Is this exceptable?

Thank you for the help everyone! I will keep you all posted.

[thecount]

Does anyone know the contact info for Midwest brake, I like Jeff's decision to get the original rebuilt?

[Bill Caddyshack]

http://www.midwestbooster.com/contact.html

[Bill Caddyshack]

Just finished mine. In my garage/warehouse, at about 15mph. Panic stop left tire marks all four wheels. Good enough for me. Have not installed the RCV, but probably will. An event tomorrow may come first

[Coupe Deville]

Thanks for keeping us updated Bill. Going too get brake fittings for the RCV today.

[tzurick]

Bill,

Maybe I'll keep the drums then and just do the master cylinder upgrade.  I haven't had a chance to drive the car yet since I got it last year from my brother-in-law and it had been sitting for 15+years so the motor is seized and needs to come out for a rebuild.

Since these drums brakes don't have the auto adjusters how often are you having to adjust the drums? 

[Bill Caddyshack]

Bill,

Maybe I'll keep the drums then and just do the master cylinder upgrade.  I haven't had a chance to drive the car yet since I got it last year from my brother-in-law and it had been sitting for 15+years so the motor is seized and needs to come out for a rebuild.

Unless it was seized before it was parked for 15 years, the motor might be fixable. Don't pull it yet. I have heard about people getting stuck engines to run. Pull the spark plugs, squirt in some light oil, WD40? Let it soak and rock it back and forth with a big wrench on the crankshaft nut (there may be something better) do some research on seized engines. I don't know the process. Maybe you start another thread?

I'd be more focused on getting it running. Likely a lot of seals have dried out. These cars need to be driven. Probably will need some new rubber. Look up "Rubber The Right Way" they have about everything. Make sure your wheel cylinders are not leaking. If they are, suggest that you replace rather than rebuild. Water and rust can pit the inside of the wheel cylinders. You may be able to hone then out, but I would replace. Not an expensive part and brakes are critical! Gotta work!

Since these drums brakes don't have the auto adjusters how often are you having to adjust the drums?

Don't remember how often to adjust. May just be when the pedal begins to get low, or when I change the oil. The 1960's had self-adjusting brakes. Might see about an upgrade to self-adjusting brakes also. I remember when these came out also. Seemed a pretty simple setup. The brakes adjusted when you back up.

I would hope that the RCV would prolong the need for adjusting.

[tzurick]

I'm going to pull the motor soon to get the heads off and inspect.  I'm pretty sure it's original and the odometer shows 86K so a rebuild won't hurt and an upgrade to the valve guide is needed so I can run unleaded safely.  Its had a bunch of marvel oil dumped down the cylinders and the crank still won't budge.  I know it's seeped down in places since the oil pan is now overfilled.  There might be something else going on since I did find 2 slightly bent push rods on one cylinder when I pulled the valve covers and rocker arms off.  My brother-in-law said he drove it around several times before parking it and that it ran fairly well from what he remembers so he's surprised it's seized as well.  It was sitting outside under a canopy all those years on the humid east coast.

I want to clean the engine bay all up when I have the motor out and do new brakes, lines, suspension, and master cylinder then as well.  It's pretty dirty as you can see.

[Bill Caddyshack]

Tim, looks like your car may have had factory AC. Triple groove crank pulley, and the generator bracket looks like a compressor could have sat there once. Do you have round vents under the headlight switch and on the other side?

Good to know if it had factory air because there are some different parts, like the carburetor.

If so, you could think about easily -- welllll - you could put in a modern air system.

[tzurick]

Yes it's a factory air car.  Everything is there but the compressor and condenser.  The AC hoses are hanging on the fender in the pic.   It must have went out so someone just pulled it out and lived without.  The radiator was mounted on the front side of the frame and the condenser brackets were still there as well.  I pulled them out for easier access trying to get the crank to turn.  It has the shroud towards the engine side plus the body tag has K for one of the options indicating AC.

I have no intentions of making it a show car but a fun, reliable weekend cruiser is the goal for now.  A couple more pics.....ignore the Lincoln hubcab...lol.  The other cadillac ones were in the trunk once I got it open.  The return fuel line is also there for the AC equipped cars.

 

[Bill Caddyshack]

VERRRRYY NICE, Tim. Love the color combo.


You know, I wonder if very many people actually want to have a  show car. They decide to change the wiper motor, an they utter the gonna-keep-it-in-the-garage for five years and everything-be-replaced-or-cleaned-and -painted phrase -- are you ready for this? ----

"While I am in there, why don't I . . . . "

[tzurick]

I hear that 

[59 DIRTY RAT]

I've been have brake issues too ( not sure if I should start a new thread?)
I have replaced the shoes, the brake cylinders, master cylinder and new booster! I drive the car 500ft up the road apply the brakes hard and boom! The booster broke!! It was brand new damn it! Got it back to the shop and fluid is coming from the rear of the booster!

So I thought ... because I'm sick of fixing the same thing over again, I might try using my '69 Corvette discs and calipers on the front? They should fit inside a 15in wheel because the Vette had 15in wheels! I would have to make a bracket and change the studs to 1/2in, then fit a double diagram booster and twin master cylinder that suits!
What so you think??