Bill Hirsch vs. Seymour - Cadillac Dark Blue

[52Cadillac]

Jason, I painted my incorrect gray alternator on my 52 with semi gloss or gloss, I can't quite remember, but it blends in nicely now.
Mike

[Rodfather]

I Agree Strongly with others here. Bill Hirsch is a nice "Warm and Fuzzy" substitute ... No Question ... Absolutely Beautiful Paint but Extremely Glossy, Purplish hew in the bright sunlight .. gives the motor a "POP", but not Correct .. not a good benchmark ....but nice substitute..  Hobbyist Paint is a great description of what it is ..... Seymour is closer...  better ....... but the paint which was Discontinued 10 years or so ago that was truly impressive with regards to its "correct luster" and general color range was Product Number SP-140 by VHT .... VHT is now a major retailer ... and since they have become a major retailer dropped it from their line altogether.  The quality it brought to a restoration was the ability to not have to do an entire paint restoration to a motor .... I was able to paint individual parts on several cars without any significant "if any" contrast in luster or tint .... The ten plus year results however is there have been some minor flaking issues ... not significant .... and quite frankly probably closer to the conditions that would result in the period of the paint used by the factory on our Engines.... not as quality a paint as BH or Seymour however it had the correct tinting and luster .. indiscernible difference in the applications I used it ... 

Fact is I guess If you really want the correct Cadillac Blue paint for your Engine have ppg or other manufactures outlet do a spectral Analysis of an existing sample of satisfying condition and have them mix a quart of Engine Enamel ... last time I had that done about 7 years ago the cost was $135. a quart.

[Jon S]

One point nobody mentioned was I've found the Seymour paint consistency to be a bit thinner thereby spreading better; and, more importantly is better suited for minor touch up.  Again, a personal choice.

Jon

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Only very recently & for the first time - did I encounter an engine done with the Hirsch paint that had an indigo tinge. Otherwise my main complaint had always been that it appeared a bit too light compared to factory applied that I've seen.

This is especially evident when these engines are photographed with flash - which can actually cause the paint to appear light blue - similar to GM corporate blue of 1977 & later.

I have never witnessed this phenomenon with original dark blue photographed in the same manner.

There is also the question of heat, age and vapors playing a role in darkening  therefore it's difficult ascertain exactly what the original looked like when new - at this point in time.

As Wally had mentioned, the closest approximation would likely be an original blue NOS part - if one could be found.

[Jon S]

.  Jon, you are spot on in that assessment.

Thanks 49er!  Here's a pic of my 1958 "Seymour" engine done about 5 years ago:

Jon

[rwchatham CLC 21892]

The top photo looks more correct to me. How has the seymour been as far as holding up to the heat ?

[Jon S]

I just posted an engine done 5 years ago - Seymour holds up just fine.

[Jason Edge]

I wouldn't care if you sanded through and found solid gold. I don't care how they mix it or with what. There are Hirsh defenders and that's fine. I'm speaking only for myself and no one else. I simply wouldn't use it.

The sanded power steering pump pulley is an original pulley and pump I was taking down to prepare to paint. 

The point is original Cadillac Blue has a tinge of teal to it. When you compare it to some to a true blue-blue, paint whether it is a darker or lighter shade of blue, or a glossier or flatter blue, it looks correct. The Ford blue is a good example of a truer  blue-blue. The original paint that I have seen on hundreds of 1963 & 1964 Cadillac parts as a touch of what I call teal.  I have found that Bill Hirsch has that "touch of teal" that at least gets it close.  Is it a perfect match probably not. 

In terms of NOS parts, they still cure for 40, 50, 60 years and who is to say the tint does not continue to change. I have been very pleased with my results but am not a naysayer about any other paint and would love to try the Seymore paint. If someone has a link where I can buy a can or two I will order some this week as I have a few odds and ends I would like to paint.

[Jason Edge]

I just ordered 3 cans of the Seymour paint thanks to a link Dan sent.  I will say that in terms of durability I have had zero issue with Bill Hirsch paint. I am constantly looking around for better products and with $40 shelled out and some engine parts to paint in the near future I will definitely kick the tires on the Seymour paint.

I was very worried in 2010 when I took a rebuilt THM and cleaned it up and painted with the Bill Hirsch paint, not because of the brand paint but because my rear engine seal was staring to throw oil out pretty bad (engine rebuilt last May which address that problem).  Since the transmission gets very hot, and had 2 years of oil lathered on it, I will have so say the BH paint held up perfectly.  Of course how the surface is prepared, and the paint is allowed to cure has everything to do with how paint will stick.  This one definitely one item I wanted to be "One and Done" and so far paint is very nice.

For reference and comparison here is a picture of the extended compressor arm from a 98K parts car I pulled in last year. (Again, I like to deal with facts and not trying to say one paint is better than the other especially since I have not even used the Seymour paint!)  When I have the Seymour paint I will paint two of the same items and hold up both to an original item such as this in the same lighting. Here is the the original piece showing some paint that would have been not exposed to any elements where the compressor mounts:

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

George- your engine paint appears original to me.

Did you use a flash for these pictures?

[Dan LeBlanc]

George.

I can't get the hue your paint has out of the Hirsch.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

I actually used sellers photo. I can take a new one . You think I should use or not use flash.I can also pull car out into sun. When I take car out again.

Actually both would be good if it's not too much trouble. It would help to illustrate the difference resulting from lighting. 

[Dan LeBlanc]

I find the Hirsch doesn't look like that.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

I agree with Dan, it does appear different than Hirsch-  or at least the batch of Hirsch that I had used.

Here are a couple of mine- with and without flash.

Views of the engine are different but you get an idea of the effect of flash on this particular paint.

If I had to do it again, I'd have gone with the Seymour. YMMV.

[Rodfather]

Eric I think the batch of Bill Hirsh that I got is closer than the one you got ..... Before Bill Hirsh and After ... The first photo is with VHT which was discontinued 10 years ago or so .... The VHT was a very very good match...... I still have some VHT so for my own edification I am going to do the three side by side (Seymour, Hirsh, VHT) with a part with good original paint  still on it ... to see the 4 together ...... The VHT is now a memory as it was dropped from their line up of paints but I could touch up an original part with it and not see the variation of old to new paint.

Edt .. these pictures taken with indirect sunlight and flooded with florescent and incandescent light... no flash

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

I ordered the paint & refinished the blue parts two years ago - except the fuel pump which was done this spring - as you probably remember. 

Can't comment on any paint made after that time.

To my eyes - there is no purplish shade in the paint of my engine - although it does not appear quite as dark as the paint on George's car. The picture of the same engine (2nd picture in Reply #16)  it does appear purplish - but that it is not how it appears in person.

In my opinion - they're all lighter than that of the mint original ultra-low mileage '63 Convertible I saw earlier this year at the Central PA CLC regional held at Kelly Cadillac - and that even includes George's car which is also original.

As had been previously mentioned, there's a strong likelihood of variance in the batches of paint used by GM itself, coupled with the effects of aging, chemical interaction from fumes, vapors, cleaning agents used over the years etc - therefore the question of what any particular engine paint looked like on any particular car - on day one - is pretty much moot.

In any case, I sincerely doubt anyone is likely to incur any point deductions when using the appropriate Cadillac blue from either vendor.

**Thank you George. That was very helpful.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Ok. I did a side by side comparison today between Hirsch, factory and Seymour.



The top is Hirsch, the middle is factory I was able to polish down to.

The Hirsch was darker and the Seymour was almost Ford blue. I was able to thin out the Hirsch and spray it through a gun and get closer than the Seymour.

[mr41cadillac]

one thing I can say for sure. if you order the Cadillac green and then order the same green a few months later the shade of green can be distinctly different. this happened to me .john

[Grant Owen]

I have found the best way to get the correct engine Color is to mix the paint yourself in Enamel I have been doing this for a while now & Enamel paint is the best paint to use for engines it lasts & it is far superior to some so called engine paints. I have low milage Cadillacs with completely original engines which I have used as samples. Attached picture of the paint I match , hope the Color shows properly on this post.
The closest Cadillac premixed engine paint I have seen was POR15 Cadillac Blue engine paint it was close but not perfect.

[52Cadillac]

Grant that just brings a tear to one eye. Beautiful.
Mike