1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration

[DeVille68]

Hi Wes, well my engine rebuilder is currently gearing up to do just that on every future engine he builds. Just a piece of mind. And you have a controlled environment. You can break in the engine without having to install it. Not everyone is familiar with this, so the engine builder can send you a ready to drive engine, otherwise you would need to do this on your own.
Of course if something leaks you can fix it more easily with the engine out of the car.

For my case this is way overkill. But it was interesting to do, I learned again a lot!

Today's engines are "cold" tested. That is there is no combustion. The sensors are checked and all other mechanical functions of the engine. This has the advantage that sensitive microphones can hear mechanical noises that they could not record when you have combustion noises. To my knowledge the engine is then first started when leaving the assembly line.

An other way is to put the engine on a dyno, so there you can do the break in and tune all in one go.

Best regards,
Nicolas

[DeVille68]

Hello everybody that is following. The last post was about getting the engine stand ready.

This post will sum up the disaster that happened since then. The good thing is, the engine test stand performed perfectly. The bad thing is: I wiped out a cam lobe! -> I have to start all over again! 

The first 10-15 minutes of the break-in process went actually quite good, no vibrations just a slight ticking from the rear of the passenger side valve cover. After 15 min I shut the engine down to inspect why the lifter was ticking. I looked at the rockers and checked preload again but no sign of failure. Engine oil was still fresh.
Second start, ticking got louder. After 2 minutes shut her down again. Looked again at the rockers and pushrods. Suspected that some lube may have clogged a lifter, so I used the electric drill again to pump oil trough the engine. Oil was coming out of all pushrods. So I started the engine again and a horrible noise was present and it backfired when I shut her down.


So here is a short summary of what went wrong:
First problem:
I had a new distributor installed, I have never run this unit before. Turned out that I did not get proper spark, although the timing light indicated correct timing and it would always light up. We tried too long and had spun the engine too many times with the starter only. This may have been a contributing factor to the lifter failure, too little oil supply during cranking speed. After trying for maybe an hour we switched to the old distributor and it fired right up. Still need to check the new distributor out on an ignition test stand. We already checked the coil and it is producing 50'000V easily.

Second problem: I used a liberal amount of engine assembly lube on the lifter surfaces. I read that you should but it on the bottom and the side of the lifters. Well, I did just that and I used assembly lube that advertises with "this product will mix with oil" and "Unlike other assembly lubes, xxx yyyy's will not plug filters after initial engine start-up" (!!)
However, this stuff got so sticky that it prevented good rotation of some of the lifters, this I noticed after tearing the engine down and looking at the wear pattern on the bottom of the lifters. Obviously, the lube did not mix fast enough with the oil.
I also coated the camshaft gear, timing chain, connecting rod bearings and the oil pump itself with a good amount of this assembly lube. The idea was to protect the components upon initial start up and also to give lubrication to the parts while I was assembling the engine over an extended period of time (roughly 4 months).

Third problem: My engine builder checked the hardness of the camshaft, but of course not every lobe. The hardness of the cam was good, but maybe one lobe had a problem too. I don't know for sure. I did not measure the lifters. Next time I will measure every lobe, not sure if that makes sense at all but it is good to know.

Fourth Problem: All this might not be too much of a problem, yes I would need new lifters and a camshaft, but the final problem was that the debris and the assembly lube clogged the oil filter, which opened the pressure release valve and flooded the engine with debris (unfiltered from the oil pan). On the third and final start up, this debris caused that all the bearings are garbage now and I noticed some scratches in the crankshaft journals. The problem with the oil filter was probably increased by using a very fine filter (Bosch instead of ACDelco).

So, all in all, it might have been this multiplication of problems that led to the camshaft failure.

Here are a few pictures:
picture showing priming the oil system with a drill.
picture showing vacuum, oil pressure, rpm (between 2000 and 2300rpm) and the air fuel meter reading. I got constant 35-40psi oil pressure.
The engine ran very well, no vibration


At this point the engine has been completely disassembled, cleaned and all new bearings installed. I hand-polished the crank journals. Bearing clearance is a bit wider but still in specification.
Now, I am waiting (since 3 weeks!  ) on my new camshaft, ordered from cadillachighperformance and manufactured by lunati.

At least I now have a cool engine test stand. I will keep you updated on my second rebuild  !

Best regards,
Nicolas

[hornetball]

Wow.  What a bummer.

[Roger Zimmermann]

That's really bad luck.

[savemy67]

Hello Nicolas,

Sorry to hear of your troubles.  I appreciate your willingness to share your experience on the forum, as it can be a learning experience for all.

I don't have a 472/500 shop manual so I don't know if the oiling passages in the 472 are the same as in the 429.  If they are, then the set of lifters closest to the front of the car on the driver's side are the last to get oil from the lifter galleries.  Your post mentioned the ticking as coming from the rear passenger side of the engine.  Was the wiped-out cam lobe at this position?  This position would be ahead of the port for the oil pressure sender, so if you were getting good oil pressure at the oil sender port, you were probably getting good oil flow through the oil gallery feeding the lifters for the cylinder at the passenger rear side of the engine.  This would lead me to think you initially had a defective lifter, and I don't think the cranking without spark was a problem.  Did you notice good oil pressure when you were cranking the engine?

Engine assembly lube is a good idea, but more is not better.  Assembly lube has two functions: to provide a lube with additives which provide more protection under high-pressure conditions, and to provide increased viscosity or "stickiness" to keep the lube in place.  I am not sure where you read that you should put assembly lube on the sides of the lifters- motor oil is sufficient on the sides.

While it is possible for a camshaft to have a lobe of insufficient hardness, I would expect this from a lesser quality manufacturer, and even then it is not likely.  Where did you get your camshaft?  How will you test a new cam for hardness without blemishing the lobes?

Was the Bosch filter designed for use with synthetic oil?  Are you using synthetic oil in your engine?  There is a difference in molecule size and shear/traction coefficients between synthetic and conventional oil.

Will you be installing the new components yourself, or will you have an engine builder do it for you?  Fortunately, your trouble did not cost you an arm and a leg, perhaps just a finger.  Considering the time, effort, and money you are putting into your car, this is a setback, but not a huge setback.  Perseverance is a virtue.

Respectfully submitted,

Christopher Winter

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

What a mess.   That Lifter is totally destroyed judging from the roughness around the circumference.

The Cam Lube should only be used on the cam lobes and the lifter base, and the rest should be engine oil, and straight 30 weight at that.

Oil pressure has nothing to do with lubrication of the lobes and lifter bases as these areas are only lubricated by splash feed.   That is the excess oil that is thrown off the crankshaft as it is spinning around.

This is the only reason that the cam running in procedure has the engine rotating at over 2,000 RPM at initial startup, and for the 30 minutes.   It takes that long for the oil to migrate into the microscopic pores of the lobe and lifter to allow idling and "normal low speed driving.

Cranking the engine via the Starter Motor for long periods is detrimental to the lobes and Lifters, even though the oil pressure is up.

If one has to do the cranking without starting, I would recommend removing the spark plugs, and the rocker arms, thus relieving pressure on the aforementioned parts.

The compromising of the oil filter, and the damage to the bearings will require that this engine needs completely flushing of the oil galleries before putting back together to get rid of the stuff that hurt the bearing shells.

Bruce.

[DeVille68]

Hi Christopher and Bruce

Thanks for your words. I noticed that I did not post any updates.
Yes, I did open up all oil gallery plugs again and flushed everything out. I had to hand-polish the crank because the debris did scratch the surface. All new bearings are installed, new camshaft is in (again MTS#5 ordered from cadillac high performance along with the (supposedly) lunati lifters).
However, the lifters seemed to be bad again because they corroded badly after I cleaned them in my ultra sonic cleaner and had them in the oil for two hours. They actually corroded while sitting in the oil.
So now I have already ordered new lifters, this time those are COMP Cams 869-16.

The lifters are now in Wisconsin waiting for me to be picked up, I will be attending the GN in Louisville. See you there, maybe I can share a more detailed engine rebuild story at the bar or on the show field.

After I get home I will update this "blog" again and hope to finally assembly the engine. It has been almost two years now....

See you,
Nicolas

As for the questions:
1) It was the lobe directly under the return hole of the oil in the lifter valley. It was the exhaust of cylinder nr. 5
2) I always had oil pressure except when cranking started, during cranking it was ok
3) My engine rebuilder checked a few of the lobes. Now with the new camshaft I did not check the lobes again.
4) The filter should work with both oils. I have a non synthetic 20-W50.
5) Yes, I am already putting it back together again.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

......All new bearings are installed, new camshaft is in (again MTS#5 ordered from cadillac high performance along with the (supposedly) lunati lifters).
However, the lifters seemed to be bad again because they corroded badly after I cleaned them in my ultra sonic cleaner and had them in the oil for two hours. They actually corroded while sitting in the oil.   

I cannot understand why the Lifters required cleaning if they were new.

Plus, how could they corrode if they were sitting in oil?   What sort of oil are you using, or better still, what is the fluid in the sonic cleaning machine?

Bruce.

[DeVille68]

I did check if the lifter would compress easily, so I used a pushrod and pushed down by hand to check movement. Two of the lifters did not move as easily as the others, so I threw them into the sonic cleaner. I used just a normal cleaning media that you dissolve in water 1:10. It is called "Spezialreiniger Ultraschall HD". It says on the box: "Gentle special cleaner for all types of materials"
http://www.dema-vertrieb.ch/index.php/de/Spezialreiniger.Ultraschall.HD.Teilewascher.5L/c.KAT0800/a.61041
Well not really....

I also told this to my engine builder and he said that he opens up every lifter because the oil can become like a resin and hinder the lifter piston to move up and down freely. (probably from sitting too long on the shelf)

So next time I am going to throw them into mineral spirit and open them up.

Best regards,
Nicolas

[DeVille68]

Hello everybody,

News from me again. I returned from the GN with the new lifters from Comp Cams in my luggage.
I did check the movement again with a pushrod and realized that the internal plunger would not move at all. This time I did not throw them into my sonic cleaner but opened them up with a needle nose plier. Check out the first picture. After opening them I cleaned all the parts in Terpentinersatz (Mineral Spirit) and soaked them in engine oil. After this the engine was ready for break-in. I had again primed the engine with a tool to turn the oil pump. It took an awful long time to prime and to check that every pushrod and rocker arm was receiving oil.
After priming the carburetor with gasoline the engine fired right up at the first try. I did use my old distributor this time!
I immediately raised engine speed to 2300-2000 rpm.
Unfortunately the timing was set at 0° degree so the engine would get quite warm. I shut it off after 20 min, reset the timing to about 10° advance and then the total was about 20° advance. It was still getting a bit warm - probably because there was too little air flow through the radiator. After 30 min I reduced the speed to idle speed, which was no problem.
I did not idle for too long and shut it off and changed the oil and filter. When I cut the oil filter I noticed that there were a lot of very fine particles, but no junks like last time. Hope that this is a good sign because it would mean that the lifter and camshaft would have matted to each other. The oil was otherwise still quite clean and I did not hear any funny noises.

One of the exhaust bolts that reached into the head bolts would let some engine water out. I don't understand why the Cadillac engineers would drill into the hole of the head bolts. Anyways, I let the engine cool down during the night and retorqued the head bolts (was not really necessary, only the two shorter bolts were a bit lower in torque) and but permatex on the threads of all of the exhaust bolts that would reach into the head bolts. Hope this seals that water leak.

Best regards,
Nicolas

[DeVille68]

After break-in in the engine I moved the whole engine with teststand to the location where my Cadillac is stored since two years. We (my father and I) used an engine hoist with an leveling device and a pulley tackle. The leveling device was used to twist the engine left to right and the pulley tackle to lift the front of the engine up. This setup was working real nicely, the position and angle of the engine could be controlled precisely. The engine was in and motor mounts torqued after about 2 hours. Then began the tedious process of attaching and finishing the wiring. I left all wiring loose and too long without terminals. I now had to finish the wiring and make it nice. Crimp all the terminals and attach the wiring. Everything else went quite smooth nothing mayor. I reinstalled all the gauges I had on my teststand into to engine and car. So now I have a panel with all the gauges sitting above the transmission tunnel. I think I will keep this for the first few hundred miles.

The first start however was bit strange. Oil pressure was taking way too long to build up and the lifters would make a lot of noise. So I shut the engine off immediately - it ran for about 10 seconds.

We took the valve covers of and checked if the oil was flowing though the pushrods by using the oil pump priming tool again. We noticed that we would get oil pressure (about 40psi) immediately but no flow through the pushrods. Took about 30 seconds for the first pushrod to squirt oil. So we decided that the reason for this behavior must be the thick oil I was using. I was recommended to use 20W50. Well, this is probably way to thick. I did check again the shop manual and it recommends 10W30 or 10W40 for the temperature range I live in. I asked an oil company of what they recommend and I told them that my engine failed due to a spun rod bearing. I was using 10W40 before, so they recommended 20W50.
I think this is a mistake because all the bearing clearances are new and tight now, so there is no need for this thick oil.

I now ordered 10W30 with >1200ppm zinc in it. Hope to make the oil change next weekend - let's see if my assumption was right.

Best regards,
Nicolas

[Roger Zimmermann]

Had the new lifters some liquid into the body? If yes, you cannot move the internal plunger.
On the 3 cars I restored, I removed the internal plungers, put some oil into the body and reassembled. As the start-up, all lifters did a lot of noise for maybe 5 minutes.

[DeVille68]

Had the new lifters some liquid into the body? If yes, you cannot move the internal plunger.
On the 3 cars I restored, I removed the internal plungers, put some oil into the body and reassembled. As the start-up, all lifters did a lot of noise for maybe 5 minutes.

Hi Roger,
no there was no debris or oil. Maybe just a film of oil. I suspect that the oil (or grease?!) they use resinifies and prevents the check valve to move at all. After cleaning all of the lifters the mineral spirit still seemed to be clean. I used my external oil pump adapter to fill all the lifters, there was no noise at initial start up / break-in.
Only after I installed the engine, I had to remove the oil filter to install the engine, the lifters would make a lot of noise.
This behavior should not be normal as it would happen every time the engine stands for a few days or after an oil and filter change. Let's see if the different viscosity will help.

Best regards,
Nicolas

[savemy67]

Hello Nicolas,

If I understand your last post correctly, if you let the car sit for a few days, or if you drain the oil and change the filter, the lifters make noise?  If this is the case, the noise indicates the lifters are leaking and are empty of oil.  What is even more strange is that I think this would be less likely because you are using thicker oil.

I don't think it is normal for the lifters to have leaked oil after only a few days.  In your photo of the disassembled lifter, I see that the lifter has not been completely disassembled.  The check ball, spring, and retainer are still attached to the lifter plunger.  Did you test the operation of the check ball?  (see my post on valve train and lifters here -

http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=133691.100

start at reply 111)

Also, remember I have a 429, your 472 may be different, so refer to the shop manual.

If the problem of leaking/noisy lifters is consistent, then I think your lifters are either assembled incorrectly, or they are the wrong lifters.  From the photo, they look like the correct lifters, so I would at least check them for proper operation of the check ball.

Respectfully submitted,

Christopher Winter

[DeVille68]

If I understand your last post correctly, if you let the car sit for a few days, or if you drain the oil and change the filter, the lifters make noise?  If this is the case, the noise indicates the lifters are leaking and are empty of oil.  What is even more strange is that I think this would be less likely because you are using thicker oil.

Hi Christopher,

Yes, the engine was last run on Monday. Then I had to remove the oil filter to install the engine in the car. This has emptied the oil galleries. This would also happen if I would change the oil and oilfilter for winter storage. The lifters have probably leaked down because I used the starter several times to check all the gauges and wiring. I started the car again on Friday.
Yes, I also have not yet fully understood the role of the oil - but neither do the "experts" of the oil companies I have talked to so far...

I don't think it is normal for the lifters to have leaked oil after only a few days.  In your photo of the disassembled lifter, I see that the lifter has not been completely disassembled.  The check ball, spring, and retainer are still attached to the lifter plunger.  Did you test the operation of the check ball?  (see my post on valve train and lifters here -

http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=133691.100

start at reply 111)

Also, remember I have a 429, your 472 may be different, so refer to the shop manual.
If the problem of leaking/noisy lifters is consistent, then I think your lifters are either assembled incorrectly, or they are the wrong lifters.  From the photo, they look like the correct lifters, so I would at least check them for proper operation of the check ball.

Yes, you are right. I did not disassemble the plunger. I left the checkball and spring assembled. But I did check that the checkball was moving freely. I think I assembled the lifters correctly. There is metering disk - it was side specific on the lunati lifters but just a flat disc on the comp cams lifters.
The concept of the rockerarms is almost identical to the 472. However the 472 uses separate screws to mount the pedestals.

I will post an update on Sunday - hope the thinnner viscosity helps.

Best regards,
Nicolas

[35-709]

If you don't already do so, add as much of a quart of oil as you can to the filter before installing it, you will find the oil pump will pick up the prime and quiet the engine and lifters much faster.

[klinebau]

I have been following your thread and have even referenced it as I work through issues restoring the door panels, window felts, window adjustment, etc.  Even though I have a 1970 convertible, I have experienced some of the same trials you mentioned.  I really felt bad for you after the problems with the first attempt of your rebuild.  I hope your recent issues get resolved soon!

[DeVille68]

Hi Kurt,

thanks for your compliment. This is the reason why I write and post updates, it feels good if I can help somebody restore his Cadillac too.

Hi Mr. Newcombe
Yes I did that, although after installing the engine into the car and fitting the oil filter again, I did not fill up the filter again. So this might has added to the oil pressure build up delay.

Best regards,
Nicolas

[DeVille68]

Hello,

Last week I enjoyed a full week vacation in Switzerlands Vineyard Terraces, called Lavaux. It's a world heritage site and consist of small villages with grapes surrounding them. From the lake to the hill top. Absolutely beautiful. We were there because of the Fête des Vignerons (Winegrowers' Festival), which only happens every 20 years or so.

Anyways, the oil had arrived and I immediately went to the garage to continue working on the suspension. I had to tighten all the bolts and put cotter pins into the castle nuts. My father was helping me with measuring camber, caster and toe-in. See attached below my settings. With radials (Diamond Back), the car tracks straight, straight under braking and has just little steering return. I will increase the caster to even more positive caster, maybe +1.5°. Hopefully this gives me a bit more steering return. (factory setting is -1°).

The pure hydraulic shocks are very nice. The driving experience improved quite a lot. Of course also all new bushings are helpful for a smooth ride. I don't have a lot of miles on the car yet, but from driving a bit through country roads I can already say that the shocks are not too floaty and the hard short bumps that we transmitted to the chassis with the old pieces are almost completely dampened out.

I changed the 20W-50 to 10W-30, an oil from Motorex, which is a Swiss made Oil. See picture below and here is the link: https://www.motorex.com/de-ch/classic-line/motorenoel/evotec-sae-10w30/. It has >1200ppm zinc already in it.
I primed the oil system again, the pushrods were squirting oil a bit faster then before. So we decided to start the engine again. There was only a slight ticking from the lifters, so we decided to go on a test drive.

I was driving my car for the first time in 2 years and 1 week!
After a few full throttle pulls up to 3500 rpm we returned and had to clean up the garage. Attached a picture with me driving, you can see the gauges, there is rpm, oil pressure, vacuum (not hooked up yet), oil temperature and air-fuel ratio.

Next week, I will have to make a special washer for the upper ball joint, remove and install the exhaust again (exhaust leak), increase the caster, go test the new distributor and go for a longer test drive.

Thanks for hanging in with me.

Best regards,
Nicolas

[Lowrider2905]

That looks very nice.
I bought me triple whitewalls from Coker. They are bias ply an have awesome steering return and stability with factory settings on my 66. Had radials before, with the same settings they definately didn´t run that good. So a very good intention to change the settings.

I had 10W30 in my Caddy, was okay, but I wasn´t happy with the consumption. Changed to 20W50, too much lifter noise after a week or more. So I changed to 15W40. Awesome, doesn´t need any oil between the changes and it´s quite.

What type of washer do you mean? This wedge styled one? Be aware, this one is made from pretty high strengt steel in original. A friend has problems to find a used/new one.

Greetings from Germany,

Richard