HELP OVERHEATING 322ci 1938 La Salle Engine!

[35-709]

There was a factory service bulletin from back in the '40s/early '50s or so that addressed the flathead Cadillac V-8's propensity to overheat as it got older due to rust accumulating in the rear passages of the block.  Normal flushing will not get the rust that is causing the problem, it requires removal of some of the rear head bolts, one at a time, and poking down the hole with a stiff wire or rod while flushing the engine with a water hose at the same time.  I remember seeing the SB some time ago (here) but cannot remember the exact procedure well enough to reliably repeat it here.  I am surprised no one has reposted that procedure for Mr. Aranda to try before spending that kind of money for another radiator which may or may not solve his problem.  Perhaps the person or persons who has access to that SB has not seen this thread. 

[Steve Passmore]

.  I am surprised no one has reposted that procedure for Mr. Aranda to try before spending that kind of money for another radiator which may or may not solve his problem.  Perhaps the person or persons who has access to that SB has not seen this thread.

Thats sound advise that I would give every time but in the first thread it was stated it had been flushed so you have to take people at their word.  These engines do indeed get a build up in the rear cylinders so I suggest Jose takes out a front head bolt and passes a stiff rod down in to the water jacket and measures how far it will go down, then take a back one out and do the same. if you get a measurement discrepancy of say 2" then that could be the problem and it needs to be cleaned out.

Yes Jose, 93mm is the size I had to be satisfied with. Remember, thats one whole row of tubes extra and every little helps.

[John Washburn CLC 1067 Sadly deceased.]

Folks,

As Steve suggests there is a procedure outlined in the Cadillac Serviceman in August 1939, page 27; New Cylinder Block Cleaning Procedure". and "September 1947, page 39; New Procedure for Cleaning Cadillac Cylinder Blocks".

The 1947 procedure suggest that you remove "one or two lower rear cylinder head cap screws:. You then stick a rod that is long enough to go all the way to the bottom. Then remove the rod and "note the presence of any sludge clinging to it." If you find sludge then the new procedure is outlined, which includes removing the water pump.

The Johnny

[Bill Ingler #7799]

That new cleaning procedure calls for removing bottom row head bolts one at a time, starting on the left cylinder head, removing the water pump, connecting a water supply to the left cylinder head outlet and then using Kent Moore Air Gun down each of the bolt holes, working around to the right side of the engine. Not knowing how many years those head bolts have been in that engine, I would be hesitant in using this procedure as a snapped head bolt or two would mean you will spend big bucks to fix the block. I would rather knock 2 of the 3 freeze plugs out of each side of the engine and use water to flush out as much of the crud as possible.

Jose: If you are filling the radiator so that the level is just slightly above the bottom of the top tank , using the correct A/C cap which I think is a 4 lb cap which has the correct length cap neck to seal on the inside neck flange of the radiator neck, using a 50/50 coolant, then the boiling point is about 230-235. As has been suggested, get an infrared thermometer. What I would want to know what is the actual temperature of the coolant in the top tank compared to say when the needle is at the mid point on the dash gage. As the dash needle rises then take an infrared reading at different points on the dash gage. Keep doing this until the dash needle pegs out. I do this test so I know the dash gage, as old as they are, can sometimes give you a wrong temp reading. I do this at idle and raise the engine temp gradually by putting a piece of cardboard in front of the radiator while using my thermometer.

I also go along with Steve and I think you will find your core is too thin. I have re-cored a 41 and a 47, both times the cores used were just about 3.6 inches and I also know that when my dash needle is resting on H, the coolant in the top tank is at 205, when the needle is on O, the top tank is 220 and when on T, the top tank is 230. Understanding what your dash gage is really telling you, will let you enjoy driving the car.   Bill 

[35-709]

"That's sound advise that I would give every time but in the first thread it was stated it had been flushed so you have to take people at their word."

Right ---- he said,  "First of all I have flushed out the radiator and engine block."

So I said, not knowing what kind of flushing had been done, --- "Normal flushing will not get the rust that is causing the problem".

Don't know which will be worse, taking a chance of breaking a head bolt or paying $1500 for another new radiator and then when the 2nd new radiator does not solve the problem STILL having to do the procedure outlined in the "September 1947, page 39; New Procedure for Cleaning Cadillac Cylinder Blocks".

Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.

[gary griffin]

Removing an after market oil filter mounted on my left head caused broken head bolts and eventually  a rebuild of an engine that was running fine. 

[jos1270]

  thanks guys for the advice, braking head bolts sounds scary! Does anyone know a good way or safer way of taking out head bolt with out braking? I want to try that but if that means that there is a good possibility of braking then I rather not mess with that until i have tried everything else.

Would soaking the bolts with WD-40 or any kind of penetrating oil for a long time work? Like every day for a month or longer spraying it. Would you guys think that would work?

[Glen]

WD-40 is not a penetrating oil, it does not help very much.  The best is a home brew of a 50/50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and acetone.  Make sure you shake it frequently it does separate.  If you don’t want to do that then get something like PB Blaster or Liquid Wrench.  And yes make frequent applications and let it soak for as long of a time as you can allow. 

You also need to know how to remove a bolt.  Never force it.  If you can get it to move even a little bit keep rocking it back and forth and applying the penetrating oil.  Each time you turn it you will gain a small amount, then back it off and turn it again.  Eventually you will get it free.  This is not a job for someone with little patience. 

   

[Steve Passmore]

I'm afraid Jose that these bolts will either come out or they will not. Penetrating oil will do little when you understand the nature of why they will not move.    The bolt passes through the head, then through the thread in the block, then about 3/16" hangs below into the water jacket. Over the decades the part in the jacket corrodes into a carbuncle, too big to ever pass through the threads again. You cannot get penetrating oil to these areas and if you could it wouldn't make a difference, its no longer a thread as you know it. The more they try to undo the tighter the carbuncle gets.
Don't be too despondent though, its not always the case, if the cars been in regular use and had the proper coolant or even had the heads off in past years they could all come out easier than you think.

Glens trick to try and ease the bolt back and forth to just see if theres any movement is the best way to go. You will feel if it wants to play ball.   The worst engines are those that have been idle for decades and stored badly.       I found an engine that had been outside in a wreaking yard for 20 years, it broke 28 of the head bolts. My 38 which had been in a museum most of its life released every bolt without a problem.   Good luck.

[joeceretti]

Just thought I would add one thing. Idling at a very low idle with the hood up, these engines will have a tendency to overheat. The hood is an integral part of the entire cooling system, it helps keep the air flow on the sides of the engine and pushed out the side vents.

[Smedly]

Just a thought, But would removing the temp sensor from the head give you access to the same water jacket without having to remove the head bolts. or go in through the rear water cross over tubes?
Sheldon Hay

[jos1270]

I agree with Sheldon Hay. Would that help? That maybe something I will try.

[Steve Passmore]

You cannot get past the head through the temp sender and you would be too confined to one position if you could. If its full of crud it will be the entire back of number 7 and 8 cylinder.
There are no rear water cross over tubes, theres just the one in the centre of the block unaccessible from the head bolts and a mile from where the crud settles.  Just try the bolts first with a short wrench, you will know if their going to move.

[joeceretti]

Nobody asked, how bad is the overheating? Does it overheat while driving or only while stopped? Please describe it. Also, do you know the rpm you have your idle set to?

[Bgrumka 24870]

I agree that you should get a non contact infrared thermometer.  Most auto parts stores would have them, and they used to be advertised in "The Self Starter" I believe.

One other thing you might try is, besides opening and draining the drains on either side at the bottom of the block, take out the center freeze out plugs on either side of the block and pump water through that block. You might be amazed at what crud and rust is sitting down there that is preventing proper circulation that will come flying out. Of course have new freeze out plugs at the ready to pop back in once you are done flushing.

[Steve Passmore]

I had assumed Jose had already removed the core plugs to flush the engine as stated in his first thread. I don't know how else one would flush effectively but if he has not done so the core plugs to remove are the rear ones, you wont find much by taking out the centre plugs.

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

My experience has been even after a bare block is hot tanked (normal process-nothing special) there is still crud in the block that takes mechanical tools and a pressure washer to get clean.  With that being the case the chances of any in car cleaning method working is not very good.  Even after all of this I use the Gano filters on start up to make sure no particles get in the new radiator and they always come out a little dirty even with all of that.  These cars just didn't get proper cooling maintenance for many years of their life and even if they did they did not have the technology we have now to keep a cooling system really clean.

[Steve Passmore]

Your absolutely right on all counts Brad.   

[las39]

When I had my engine overhauled, it was dipped and cleaned in a huge ultrasonic chamber. One can't possibly imagine how much debris came out of the water chamber. Even after all the cleaning there was some hardened gunk between the cylinder which could be removed via the core plugs holes. 

[jos1270]

Joe Ceretti: It starts getting hot while driving. It keeps going up and up. It is slow but does climb. This on the highway at a speed of 50 or 60 MPH for about 30 minutes. Getting out of the high in traffic, at stop lights, the temp climbs faster. Once I get going again, the temp drops down a little but not enough to not make me feel worried. Eventually I have to stop and let it cool down. I have no idea what the idle is set to.

Bgrumka 24870: I have yet to test it with a infrared thermometer. I will be trying that out soon. And I am going to try to flush it that way, taking out the freeze plugs.

S. Passmore: No I did not take the freeze (core) plugs out of the block. I had know idea it had to be done that way. Im still learning as I go along. But thank you all because I am learning a lot from this.

Brad Ipsen CLC #737: Where do you get the Gano filters? Any auto parts stores? I didnt never put does filters on after I flushed it the first time. So I might have some particles in the radiator already. I wish i would have known that before. Hope I can still clean it.

Thanks to every one for all the help and ideas.