67 Eldo ignition relay

[jerryjansson]

Hello,
having electrical problems with my 67 Eldo, no current at all to the windows.
Suspect the ignition relay can be the cause of this.
Diving into the car tomorrow, but I have no idea of the location of the relay.
Maybe somebody out there can help me ?

Cheers
Jerry Jansson
Stockholm Sweden

[Julien Abrahams]

Do none of the windows work? Does it make any difference if you use the switches on the driver's side door or on the passengers side door?
The electrical scheme from the shop manual is great. If you don't have it, let me know and I will post a copy of the scheme on here.
Most likely the main feed wire has broken inside the rubber insulating between the door and the kick panel. If you open the drivers side door fully, you can see the black rubber 'hose'. Its a bit of a PITA job, but you can disconnect it on both sides and slide it just enough to get acces to the wires.
On my '67 DeVille 6 wires were broken and the main feed (orange) was about to go. Reconnected everything and now all the windows work (albeit still sluggish, but that can most likely be solved with white grease).
Good luck.

[doublej]

Thanks Julian,
none of the windows work, not from the drivers door or from their own switches.
Have all the schemes, thinks for offering.
The looms that was in the car when I bought it was like yours, brittle and had been tampered
with a lot.
Those have been exchanged to fresher ones, all have been tested with a buzzer.
Did not do the job myself, had a mechanic who gave up, so here I am with a car without working windows.

The mechanic said that everything worked and the next time he tried all had stopped working.....

I still suspect the ignition relay, had planned to dig into it today, but other things turned up that needed my
presence.
See the attached scheme.
Power comes from the fusebox, same fuse as the horns and they work. That should then power the Power window Cut-out thing in the drivers door and the Left door master window control switch. I can operate the seat that get the same power as the Cut - out switch.....
All is very weird, will try to get a professional to look at it ASAP
Cheers
Jerry J

[Julien Abrahams]

Its very annoying when DPO's have tampered with the original loom. Better to have an original loom which is broken, than a non-original/tampered one were you first have to find out which color each wire is, and where it goes (luckily its only a couple of wires LOL  .  .
If the mechainc said that they worked before, then I would assume that the motors are OK. Then it will come down to becoming best friends with your multimeter (a simple test light will do the trick as well).
I would suggest to remove the control panel from the driver's side door. If the lockout switch is in the 'lock' position (or makes contact this way), none of the other 3 windows will work. If you remove the door sill plate, then you can remove the kickpanel padding (be carefull when you remove this, as it is connected to a piece of plastic that runs to the bottom of the windshield corner and is made of plastic). When you have removed this, you can see the block that feeds the power window switch and connects the main switch to the wiring for the other 3 windows. (The BH/CH connector in the scheme).
I don't think it is the  iginition relay, because all the other stuff which is connected to this power source works (I assume that the ignition works, and the car starts and runs).
Check to see if Power is supplied to the main power window switch (I believe it is a relative thick orange wire). Ofcourse the color can only be correct if the new loom is the same as the old one.

Another thought: check the fuse box. Its probably fine, but just check to be sure that the fuse is OK and the wire conenctions are not loose.

[doublej]

Remembered that I have the "Body by Fisher 1§967 Service Manual" on a CD.
Found a description of where the relay is located and also a window check " trouble shooting"
list.
I will get to the bottom of this, even if it's going to cost blood 
Jerry J

[Julien Abrahams]

Do you also have the Cadillac Shop Manual? Because it is a bit different from the Body by Fisher manual (as the latter one also covers the bodies of the other GM brands: Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac and Oldsmobile.
Do you have power seats? On cars with power windows and/or power seats, the 25 amp fuse is replaced by a 40 amp circuit breaker. (if DeVille and Eldorado is the same, then it is the circuit breaker on the bottom right of the fuse panel.

I have included a copy of the body wiring diagram for the '67 Eldorado. It is different from the Deville. And I think I know where the culprit is: there is a 'general' Power Window Relay (see the attached picture). That might be the problem.
But: start your quest at the harness assembly left body wiring (most likely it is mounted on the inside of the firewall). Check if you have voltage at the Window feed, and then work your way down until you get to the motor.

[doublej]

Thanks Julian.
The diagram you have attached is for a car without the electric qtr windows.
The diagram I attached is from the Cadillac 1967 Shop Manual and includes the rear qtr windows.
It says "fig 12 - 73  Optional body wiring 693 Style"
They differ a bit, on mine the relay is called "ignition relay" and on your diagram it a "power window relay".
Weird.
Cheers
Jerry J

[cadillactim]

The relay should be behind the driver kick panel. That's where it is on the RWD models.

Tim

[doublej]

Thanks Tim,
found a great schematic in the Body by Fisher book. all looms and everything clearly pointed out.
Cheers
Jerry J

[jerryjansson]

Was looking through some documentation for the 67 Eldo.
Of course, it has a special "Power Window Relay" !
Wouldn't think any old relay would do on these " primadonna" cars ;-)
So if any of you knows where to find one.... please !
Have a great weekend!
Jerry J

[cadman56]

Jerry,
Having completed a total body-off restoration of a 67 Eldo  It was Summit Gray & was at the Lancaster, PA GN many years ag. I can tell you exactly where that *()%^$ relay is.  To get at it without breaking anything the lower dash must come down because it is screwed to the cowl in front of the door between the dash & cowl.  Also, you do not need a special relay to fix it.  It is special only because of its mounting & location.  Just get one of the proper function & amperage ( Normally Open contacts energized by 12 volts from the ignition.  The case is the primary coil ground.) & mount it somewhere else-you are going to end up re-wiring the whole mess anyway.
The function of this relay is to turn on power to the windows when the ignition is on (You probably already know).  There is a spring loaded override switch on the drivers door.  If you hold it do any of the windows work?  If not, find a replacement as described above, cut the wires to the original relay, then run wire to the new one.
I disassembled 7 67 Eldos to get enough parts to complete mine.  Then I made brand new wiring harnesses for the whole car.  While I love the body style of the 67-68 Eldo I will never again attempt a restoration of one of them.
Good luck, Larry

[jerryjansson]

Thanks Larry!
Seems like this operation is not easily executed.....
None of the windows work, even with the overside switch activated.
Hopefully it's just a matter of loose cables / connectors....
Jerry J

[jerryjansson]

Car is at the garage right now. Electricals guy said, just like cadman 56, that any relay would work. So he is putting one in right now, hopefully they will call me tomorrow and tell me to get my car out of there !

[Scot Minesinger]

This same problem stung me once on a 66 Eldorado (I know RWD, way different car) and it was failure of the rubber conduit from body to door that protected the wires from being cut by sheet metal holes.  The wire insulation were all cut on several wires and the windows only worked on emergency.  I repaired the wires, replaced the conduit (what a job with power vent windows and vacuum power locks-just barley fits), and then everything worked great.  A quick visual check will confirm if rubber conduit is compromised and wire insulation cut.  Sometimes these conduits are even removed!

[jerryjansson]

Thanks for the tip Scot.
Thing is that we replaced both conduits with new ones from RubberTheRightWay and also replaced the door - looms with "fresher" ones that I bought from a 67 Eldo specialist earlier this year. The garage still have to call me to get it out of there, need some sort of transportation ASAP ;-)

[billmorrow]

Jerry,
Having completed a total body-off restoration of a 67 Eldo  It was Summit Gray & was at the Lancaster, PA GN many years ag. I can tell you exactly where that *()%^$ relay is.  To get at it without breaking anything the lower dash must come down because it is screwed to the cowl in front of the door between the dash & cowl.  Also, you do not need a special relay to fix it.  It is special only because of its mounting & location.  Just get one of the proper function & amperage ( Normally Open contacts energized by 12 volts from the ignition.  The case is the primary coil ground.) & mount it somewhere else-you are going to end up re-wiring the whole mess anyway.
The function of this relay is to turn on power to the windows when the ignition is on (You probably already know).  There is a spring loaded override switch on the drivers door.  If you hold it do any of the windows work?  If not, find a replacement as described above, cut the wires to the original relay, then run wire to the new one.
I disassembled 7 67 Eldos to get enough parts to complete mine.  Then I made brand new wiring harnesses for the whole car.  While I love the body style of the 67-68 Eldo I will never again attempt a restoration of one of them.
Good luck, Larry

g
this thread was given to me as i own a '70 eldorado with the ignition (or power window) relay issue per the shop manual trouble shooting guide for all windows inop..
it is 3am now so in the day i will try to locate my ignition relay.. if i can not i will wire around the relay which will mean that the power windows will work all the time and no i won't wire in a parallel but working relay..
power windows that work all the time are good.. my '59 convertible windows work all the time.. so why not the '70 eldorado..?!
thanks to cadman56 for his supposed relay location even after 7 years since this thread was published.. :-)

[billmorrow]

i am going to add this remark as a new post so as to move it up..
IRT to ignition relay, which i still have not located..
BUT when i went to splice power to the power windows i pulled the red/white wire from the male plug which goes to the driver door harness and found that the wire goes down into the wire harness that runs under the front carpet to the right side BUT that red/white wire comes up again and goes into the side of the dash/instrument panel..
attempting to follow this wire to the ignition relay does not work..
the wire goes into an inaccessible place, between the body metal and dash panel plastic parts and does not come back out.. the place it disappears into does not seem to be big enough to hide a relay within..

pix upon request..

i just wanted to bring anyone interested, up to date..

giving up on ever finding the ignition relay so i will wire power direct to the window harness plug..