A slippery slope.

[Davidinhartford]

Just take a look at the CLC Facebook page and you'll see the wild customs and donk'd out cars being posted there.   And not just by members but by the moderators!   

That is the type of stuff I don't want to see in the next Self Starter magazine, let alone the show field at a CLC event.

This is where the downfall has begun.   

Here are two examples of posts by the moderators of the CLC Facebook page .   Oh the humanity!

[JerRita]

2 of our cars are considered modified We have a 1987 station wagon It was ordered and sold through a Cadillac dealer The other is a Hess and Eisenhart 1984 Eldorado convertible w/ touring suspension When they were entered in GN the judges slammed them So next GN I just displayed the station wagon I am curious to see how they would be judged under the new system At the last GN I attended in Boston I saw Mirages, and the 70's -80's modified models w/ the fake side mounts judged with the others They are certainly modified JeRita

[bill06447]

Mods are ok in my book as long as they don't compete on a field with the originals. But what constitutes "original"? Are the period-correct Appliance aluminum wheels I'm putting on my 78 Eldorado, which may as well have been delivered new as a dealer add-on, considered a "mod"? When you see the 76 EFI 8.2 under the hood in place of the carbureted 7.0 is that considered a "mod"? It's not a simple question so don't expect simple answers.

Bill

[quadfins]

As Bill says, it is not a simple answer.

My understanding of the judging criteria is that the Touring, Primary. and Senior divisions are not changing in order to "accept" modified cars, with some extremely limited exceptions, like the coach-built classics from known builders. The deductions for modifications and away from authenticity remain, and would be so many that a modified car could not possibly realistically compete in those classes. In fact, the guidelines are becoming even more restrictive and detailed, to the point that it will be very difficult for "authentic" cars to be able to progress to the highest levels (wreath and crown). Modifieds will be in their own separate class, and not mixed in with the other cars. Of course, this all depends on how an owner completes the registration form, but that is a problem even now, as I saw many cars in Milwaukee registered in Primary classes that had no business there, and should have been in Touring.

The guidelines for "judging" modifieds have not even been discussed yet. It would be incumbent upon them to participate in the process, but that has not yet occurred.

So, as yet, there is no need to get too uptight about the club being "taken over" by slammed & bagged boulevard cruisers.

And, BTW, there is an address to write Letters to the Editor to the Self-Starter. You just have to look for it, but just about every issue has them, so any talk about "closed ears" is based on incorrect assumptions.

Jim

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I drove my '72 Eldorado to the 2008 GN in Cherry Hill, and parked it in the line-up of cars for 1972.

Yes, I purchased it in 2007, but didn't get my hands on it till June 2008, but had already entered it into the GN in 2007.   

Nobody complained about the '68 Wheel Trims that were on it, or the non-original tan Convertible Top, or the ratty interior or rust spots, or the bad paint job.   But, then, I didn't want it judged, and was really happy to be able to drive MY Cadillac to a GN in USA.

Now the car has a custom Continental Kit, home made, Western Cyclone II Aluminium wheels, not quite so ratty upholstery, and still bad paint, but it drives beautifully, now with its' totally rebuilt 500, higher compression and bigger valves, oh, and a Predator Carby.

Judging is for those people that want to be judged, and mine would never compete, as it would lose so many points with all the changes, but, I am proud of the stone-chipped paint work, as it gets driven at every opportunity, and the last drive was two weeks on the mainland, and just under 2000 Kilometres in sunshine, rain, and even on dirt roads.   In 2012, I even did a bit of flood-fording to continue to my destination.

Bruce.

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

In my opinion, modifications fall into two categories........1, just enough to make the car usable and then, modified.
For Example, I put seatbelts in my car because I drive it with my kids.  I also have a better radio.  It has a/c (it's a 70) but if it was older I would add it because we are in St. Louis.  But that's really it.  It still looks like a 70. 

Then there are the modifications that try to make it not look like a 70-- Those are the mods I am not fond of.
As far as the magazine, If I want to see modified cars, I'd look somewhere else.  I didn't join the modified Hoopdie club.
And by the way, it breaks my heart to see a heavily modified car.  They just shouldn't be that way.
This is my opinion..... My wife will probably tell me my opinion is wrong
Jeff

[Davidinhartford]

2 of our cars are considered modified We have a 1987 station wagon It was ordered and sold through a Cadillac dealer The other is a Hess and Eisenhart 1984 Eldorado convertible w/ touring suspension When they were entered in GN the judges slammed them So next GN I just displayed the station wagon I am curious to see how they would be judged under the new system At the last GN I attended in Boston I saw Mirages, and the 70's -80's modified models w/ the fake side mounts judged with the others They are certainly modified JeRita

Cars like your wagon may be considered modified, but those were done when the car was new and for a new car buyer who wanted something special.  No different than a wealthy client having Derham or H&E alter a new car.      The Mirage pick ups are so factory looking they were sold thru many dealers.

Those kind of customs when done new are part of the Marques heritage.   

Taking an old classic and chopping it, bagging it,  shaving all the chrome and door handles and emblems off does not do the Marque or the club anything positive.   

[JerRita]

I will see what the new rules state about modifieds As you said both of my cars were sold by dealers and ordered from a dealer

[TonyZappone #2624]

I really don't think that most people have a problem with factory authorized custom models.  I was honored to own one of the '56 Cadillac wagons from Hess and Eisenhardt, and two of the beautiful '56 Derham limousines.  These vehicles were sanctioned by Cadillac Motor Division and should sit proudly on the field of any Grand National.  I am a vehement and obnoxious opponent of "Circus wagon customs" as someone in this forum called the grossly modified cars discussed previously.  There are clubs for these cars, and our board has chosen to recognize them to some extent.  Simply put, this year I have received my 50 year pin from the CCCA, the Pierce-Arrow Society, and the AACA.  I feel that I have helped preserve history by the purchase, preservation, and maintenance of the probably 100 cars that I have owned.  As far as people not driving their old cars, and not letting people touch them, this is nonsense.  Many enthusiasts such as Jay and myself have driven 1930's, '40's and 50's cars hundreds of mile on tours, Caravans, and enroute to meets.  We cannot complain about what the CLC board decides, we can only work to place the people who concur with the principals that we, as purists endorse.  No radial tires, but circus wagon customs?  Really.

[Jay Friedman]

The bottom line is, Tony and David and others, you can't fight City Hall.  And I guess there is no provision in the CLC constitution for a club-wide, California-style referendum on this contentious topic. 

[TonyZappone #2624]

That is a good idea.  Maybe the membership could be polled as to their feelings.

[cadillac ken]

First off, I'm old guy.  I have had numerous discussions with local car club "presidents" that have seen a dramatic drop off of vintage, classic, restored, and yes even pre war hot rods showing up at the weekly get togethers.  The problem is you go to any of these shows in our city, and you see only old guys. 

When we discuss this at length (and I have even written articles about how to get the younger generations into the cars we love) we all seem to come to the same conclusion; Most young folks cannot afford to jump in the old car "game" these days. They are struggling with Student loan debts, starting a family and the cost of just about everything is skyrocketing.   

Now I know there are guys who put a ton a money into a "modified".  But I really think to chastise these builders is not the solution and still, even with the presence of these cars, overall there are not enough young folks picking up the old car gauntlet. 

For me the bottom line is enjoy what you build.  Respect what the guy or woman next to you has built.  You both put a lot of time into your project and to turn your nose up at these "modified" cars will not instill participation that one day may result into another car being saved.

I was young once.  When I was, I had no interest in original cars, only hot rods.  There where a few men I met at AACA shows much older than me with restored cars that gave me advice, sold me parts, and were quite kind to me even though I was not "restoring" my 1936 Ford at 19 years old.  Now after a lifetime of the old car hobby, I have restored a few cars as my tastes have changed.  Don't count out the idea that some of these younger guys who find a way to drive an old car, modified or not, may someday be the guardians of this great hobby.

[35-709]

"The problem is you go to any of these shows in our city, and you see only old guys." 

As I remember, as a young automobile enthusiast a long time ago (I'm 73), it has always been this way.  In the late '50s and on into the '60s and even the '70s I too was mostly interested in hot rods and fast cars.  At an old car show back then it was usually the older generation that had the restored antique cars and the interest in them, you didn't often see young guys with restored antique cars.  Just like today.  We are now another generation of older guys replacing the old guys from back then.  We are now the ones with more time and more discretionary funds.  The next bunch of older guys will come along after us and many will bring with them the interests in the cars of their youth.  l 

     

[Caddyholic]

I don't know all the new rules of allowing modifieds in to the GN. But if they have there own class or classes does it really matter. I think one stipulation should be that all cars in the GN are  Cadillac powered. That would keep half of them away. Or in courage them to use cad power.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Until we see the rules and the judging sheet, I really think the whole debate is a moot point.  We can go on and on about the what if's and wherefores but until we see something in writing, the whole debate is all for naught.

[gary griffin]

G Newcombie, I see the same things but have a different opinion. With the government attempting to force us onto public transportation and the coming of autonomous (Self Driving) cars the love affair with cars is waning and will continue to do so at an even faster rate.  A good example is New York City. In 1960 I was in the army discussing cars with a guy my age form New York. He asked why I liked cars, he had never even driven one.  I was born in 1940 and grew up in the suburbs of Seattle and cars were necessary and money was hard to come by so we all had to learn how to repair our cars. I remember changing a clutch Friday night and Saturday morning for a date Saturday evening. Kids today do not relate to that, and that is where the love affair with cars begins in my opinion.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

I believe that Cadillac power is one of the prerequisites of being judged at the GN.  For those that attended you may have noticed, our apparently obvious disdain has resulted in very few "modified" attendees. The one I saw was this LaSalle.  A young man was showing it off proudly.  It was the life's work of his father who had just finished it and (if my memory of my conversation is correct) just driven it once before he passed away.  IMHO the lack of interest we seemed to show in this car as a group  probably "told" this young man that we were a bunch of stuck up snobs and turned him away from the organization for any or all of his future automobile endeavors.  As much as we try to ignorre it, there are always a few more of us missing at each GN, due to our dirt naps.  IF we actually have any interest in the organization and not just our egos we need to welcome any Cadillac or La Salle that shows up, and allow those complying with the new rules to be judged.
Just my thoughts
Greg Surfas

[Stinson]

I believe most of us are saying the same thing in different ways and degrees. For this CLC joint venture, we are all talking about the love of Cadillacs. Owning them, driving them, showing them, or preserving them to what ever level you prefer. Again, and again, what is the issue here? There is a place in this club for all of us - Cadillac/LaSalle or Cadillac/LaSalle/Modified. As for me, if you only want to park your car in the grass on some famous golf course out west or build a Cadillac Dream Machine on the East who should mind? Frankly, I enjoy talking to all of you when showing your cars. I don't care if at Pebble Beach or a rat car on a beach. I have seen old Cadillacs with trees growing within them become something beautiful because someone had a vision, skill, and the time to make something of them or even save the parts for you and me. There is an old child's book that comes to mind about some persons having stars on their belly buttons, and some persons not having them - you should read it. We are in this club together and from each other we have managed to locate, purchase, or build a Cadillac of our choice. We can show our cars and others appreciate them, and if we can obtain some acknowledgement in the form of competition why not. Strange though, I don't see persons owning modified cars having stars on their belly buttons, or their noses up in the air all the time. Sorry, but this has been my experience during the past ten years with the CLC. You want each others knowledge, but don't park that thing next to me - how does that sound.
Ty Stinson

[Caddyholic]

I believe that Cadillac power is one of the prerequisites of being judged at the GN.  For those that attended you may have noticed, our apparently obvious disdain has resulted in very few "modified" attendees. The one I saw was this LaSalle.  A young man was showing it off proudly.  It was the life's work of his father who had just finished it and (if my memory of my conversation is correct) just driven it once before he passed away.  IMHO the lack of interest we seemed to show in this car as a group  probably "told" this young man that we were a bunch of stuck up snobs and turned him away from the organization for any or all of his future automobile endeavors.  As much as we try to ignorre it, there are always a few more of us missing at each GN, due to our dirt naps.  IF we actually have any interest in the organization and not just our egos we need to welcome any Cadillac or La Salle that shows up, and allow those complying with the new rules to be judged.
Just my thoughts
Greg Surfas

I don't remember if this car was cadillac powered? To Art's point this was the only street rod there.

[Stinson]

I just found out that my 86-year-old car buddy has 6 weeks to live due to extreme cancer in his body. He is a Chevy purest and has insisted that I keep my car as original as I can over the years - and helped me with my minor mods too. He flew out to Texas with me to purchase a '49 Cad and to drive it back to Maryland - but it was a mess and I did not buy it. I was hot to sell my '37 to purchase another '49 in Baltimore but he convinced me to finish the '37. We visited Hershey several years where he helped me find parts for the '37 over the years. He and his purest Chevy friends shared many years with me there, and we had great times ribbing each other regarding pure vs. modified - like power (stink pots) and sail boaters - they dislike each others preference also, ha. ha.

I don't like the Brass Era automobiles but I certainly appreciate the remarkable craftmenship and consider the previous models and tools they had back then to work with. I graduated from high school in 1958, so anything built after that year in my mind is NOT an antique, but my '37 is because it was built prior to August 12, 1939 ha, ha. Although you have read my position regarding modified cars, you may not know that I helped with three Authenticity Manual reviews by proof reading every entry in each publication and made many comments along the way. If you want something to do to fill your time try that venture.

This is a wonderful club - but I hope we can get closer to an even keel. I don't know what is worse than looking down your nose at someones car, or sticking it up in the air as though you smell something - like my 1937 Cadillac V-12 Touring Sedan one of 87 built with added mods driving past you. My friends don't mind, and that is all that matters to me. Especially, now that one of my purest Chevy friends is about to pass.

Ty Stinson