1941 up lifters

[Hilarius]

For the restoration of a 1948 engine I need a set ( 16 ) of cam followers or lifter bodies, the kind that were used from 1941 to early 1948.
I have a late 1948 engine that has the Unit Type lifters, replacements for which are unavailable on the market. Therefore I have to switch to the older lifters.
The engine rebuild kit providers offer new plungers, only, but no lifter bodies.
In order to be able to use the new 41 up plungers, I look for a set of good bodies.
Please, email offers to: hs1940@t-online.de
Thanks.
Hilmar.

[Steve Passmore]

What do you mean by 'A good set of bodies Hilmar?    I might have a used set but no way of knowing where any wear might be. Guess your chances of NOS are remote. I thought I read somewhere once that the late flatheads used the same lifters as the first overhead valve engines? perhaps I heard that wrong?

[Hilarius]

Hi Steve,
you heard rightly that the late 48 engines have different lifters than the earlier cars. They call them Unity lifters and they are quite different from the others. The design is similar to those in the overhead engine from 1949 up. Having been used only in late '48, they are accordingly rare if non-existent on the market, today.
I don't want to take a chance with the old Unity lifters I have and want to go back to the '41 to early '48 style.
The plungers are offered in rebuild kits on the market but not the lifter bodies. That's why I need those, as the Unity ones won't work. Of course, I don't expect to find NOS ones, but maybe good ones insofar, as they are not rusty or pitted or with a marked surface where they ride on the cam. The 1937 to 1940 lifter bodies won't work either, as the new plungers don't fit them.
Complicated affair that with the Unity lifters in the engine.
Do you happen to have any '41 up lifter bodies you don't need??
Hilmar.

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

Hi, I think I have on the bench, a few lifter sets "as removed" that you may have for postage. I have to go to the "Y" to exercise, but can check when I get back. No guarantee on condition, but some are better than none...

[Steve Passmore]

Do you know what years your lifters came out of Barry?  Hilmar and I are trying to determine which type were used in which years as there are about 3 different lengths of plungers.

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

A 1941 AS to length, all I remember is that the tool J-1055 was known as "the three inch tool." which you used to measure the opening between a seated valve and the cam.

[Steve Passmore]

Its only the length of the plungers within the bodies we are concerned with Barry. Some have longer plungers and so deeper bodies.   Others were shorter with less machined out of the body so the oil hole in the body changes position. What your referring to quite rightly is the distance from the valve to the cam but these different lifter plungers make no impression on that distance whatsoever. Could you pull out a plunger and measure it please.

This picture from Hilmar shows some of the differences. I have yet another size. We are trying to determine which size lifters fit which bodies.

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

I sprayed the lifters with Kroil this evening and will try to clean a couple of them up in the morning.

[kkarrer]

Barry,
    First, Terrill Machine in DeLeon, Texas still has those lifters.  I know that there were two different styles that fit 41.  Don't know about 48 for sure, but I'll bet they have them.  If you can get some used ones here on the forum I wouldn't hesitate to get them. I've also seen them available from Falcon. I gave away my last ones.  Second, in order to clean them go to Harbor Freight or someplace like that and get an ultra sonic jewelry cleaner and some canned carb/parts cleaner from a parts house.  Put those plungers and lifter bodies in the and run them on several cycles and use some carb cleaner spay on them in between cycles.  Third and most important take out the lifter feeder tubes and tees and put them in the ultra sonic cleaner too, but first run a wire and some carb spray through them.  Most engine rebuilders do not properly clean those parts and your lifters will never prime and oil up if you don't clean the feeder tubes. Fourth, put a little bit of light weight oil on and in each lifter when you put them back together.  Motor oil usually won't do.  It's too heavy and you'll play hell putting those lifters back in if that oil is too thick.  Last, when you fire up the engine, those lifters may all prime up and quiet down or they may not.   If they don't,run a little Marvel Mystery Oil or transmission fluid down the carb while holding the throttle at about 1200 rpms and if that doesn't get them oiled up you may have to put blocks in front of your tires and put some strain on the engine.  On my last set, I had about half of my lifters that just would not prime.  I ran the car up the ramps and on to a trailer and the stress of that transfer got the rest of my lifters to quiet down.  After that the engine was super.
Ken Karrer CenTex Regional Dir.
1941 6227D coupe
1955 convertible coupe

[Bobby B]

Hilmar,
   Hi. Yes you are correct, as I also went through Lifter "Hell," trying to figure out why they changed lifter styles in the last run of the 346 Flathead. We had discussed this issue here before and they were probably testing out new ground for the overhead engine to follow. I used the later style lifter, although I had two sets of earlier lifters, because they were on the cam that was reinstalled back into the engine after rebuilding. The cam was in excellent condition and so were the lifter bases, so both my machinist and I agreed that it was the obvious choice to use them. Those lifters are very rare ( and most people don't even know what you're talking about), but are still available NOS and when you see the cost of them, you'll be shocked. I was missing the little "C" clip on the top of one lifter, and went crazy trying to find it. Ken sent me a lifter, but it was not the correct one. Feltz sent me one, and then another one, until we finally got it right. Technically the clip isn't really needed as pressure will keep the plunger body from ever being able to pop out, but being slightly anal and incorporating Murphy's law, I had to source that clip somehow. In my opinion, the late '48 lifters are a better design than the early ones, and when you disassemble them you'll see why. You need to take into consideration what Cam you're using and what condition it's in. You really shouldn't mix and match those used  components, ESPECIALLY without checking their condition. If you're getting a new cam, you can have the mushrooms resurfaced to bring them back into spec by a good machinist, and then just rebuild or replace the plunger bodies. As you know,  none of the parts are interchangeable between any of the different style lifters. It was VERY Frustrating to say the least…..
                                              Bobby

[Hilarius]

Bobby,
thanks for your comments on the "lifter hell" some of us have been through.
In the end we became experts as to which lifters were used when and what they and their internals look like.
Maybe the late 48 lifters are the better design, I cannot judge, as the earlier ones do their job just as well.
The problem, as you rightly observe, is that they are almost unavailable and if, at great cost.
In the late 48 engine I am dealing with, there were even two kinds of those Unity Type lifters!! similar in design but not interchangeable as their specific parts go. Who knows that there are two kinds of late 48 lifters??
To rebuild a late 48 engine one has to go back to the 41 up lifters as only for them the plungers are offered by the rebuild kit providers.
One has to have a set of 41 up lifter bodies, though. The late 48 bodies do not accomodate the 41 plungers, and the 37 to 40 bodies don't either.
That is where I am stuck, right now. When I order my rebuild kit which contains the 41 plungers, I am still left without the lifter bodies or cam followers.
I do hope that someone on the forum can help me find them.
Hilmar.

[Hilarius]

Hi Barry,
a few days ago you commented on my search for 1941 up lifter bodies.
You said that you had some out of a 41 engine that I could have.
I had PMd you but received no answer, yet.
Please, let me know if those lifters are still available and if so, if they are in useable condition.
Looking forward to your reply!
Hilmar.

[Tom Beaver]

The cam followers or lifter bodies when new are not perfectly flat but slightly convex, However, they can be resurfaced or reground.  There are two places that I know of that can do it correctly, as they have done so for me, one is Oregon Cam Grinding the other is Delta Camshaft, both in Washington State. 

The new hydraulic plungers you can get from Terrill Machine, part number VL999, I believe they are intended to fit all 37 to 48 engines.  They look like the two plungers to the right in Steve's photo.  [I don't think the difference in length of the upper body in the two right hand plungers in the photograph makes any difference since it looks like the piston length is adjusted accordingly so that the overall length between the top (where it contacts the valve stem) and the support lip on the body is the same.  In other words they will both fit the same cam follower].  Original hydraulic plungers for 37 to 39 and maybe later engines look like the left hand plunger in Steve's picture.  To make the new hydraulic plungers universal for all of the years they come with a set of spacer rings which fit over the lower part of the plunger body for use with the early engines so that they will have the correct cam to valve stem clearance, if everything is new.  The point being that if you have a set of the new hydraulic plungers and spacer rings you can use any year cam follower, just shim the plungers accordingly.

I have a 38 engine with 16 reground cam followers and 16 new hydraulic plungers (VL999) 15 plungers have shims and one does not.  All of the cam followers look the same from the outside but apparently one is from a later engine because the hydraulic plunger sits up higher and doesn't need a spacer ring.  A reground cam, or cam followers or resurfaced valve seats can complicate the issue a bit since you will probably need different length spacer rings to get the lifter tolerances to work out.

Tom Beaver

[Bobby B]

Hilmar,
Hi. Here's a link to the parts you're looking for. If you want to spend the money for new lifters, it might actually save you in the long run as far as the Aggravation Department goes. As Tom stated, going with reground parts does open up another can of worms getting the proper 3" lifter-to-valve stem clearance in order to avoid a noisy valve train and one that operates your engines intake and exhaust events properly.  My machinist spent quite a lot of time setting these clearances up with stock valves. You have many options if you can't get the proper clearances, one of them being aftermarket valves with a longer stem so you can avoid pocketing the valves deeper in the head to try and pick up stem length.  The set of '48 lifters that you need will set you back $640.00, which at this point might be worth it for you. Brand New, No Problems, and No Frustration hoping that all the parts will work in harmony in a mix and match situation. Unfortunately, rebuilding a flathead is neither cheap or easy. Patience and a good machinist willing to work with you is the key. The lifter you need is Part # 5230480. Hope this helps and keep us posted!
                                     Bobby
http://nosandrestoredcadillacparts.com/shop/42-9-11240030/

[Hilarius]

Tom,
thanks for your contribution to the lifter problems.
I am aware of most things you mention, but the fact that Terrill's offer new plungers with spacer rings to make them fit also the older lifter bodies is quite new to me and I am sure to many others too.
Come to think of it, it is a logic thing to do when there are so many 37 to 40 engines around that need new lifters once in a while and when only 41 up plungers are available. And obviously not enough used 41 up lifter bodies to find.
Thank you very much for that piece of information.
I shall yet try for a while to find a decent set of 41 up lifter bodies and shall resort to Terrill's and their short bodied plungers with spacer rings when I am unsuccessful.

Bobby,
thank you,too, for your contribution regarding the late 48 lifters.
I know this Canadian guy who sells the NOS Unit Type lifters, but with shipping to Germany and duties to pay I'll easily arrive at $ 800.00. That is more than I intend to spend. Of course, it'll be the choice to obtain peace of mind but I think I'll try the other avenues, first.
Furthermore, a friend of mine, who is, or was, a precision mechanic, has offered to buy new balls and regrind the seats so that my old late 48 lifters should be able to start a new life.
Obviously there are several options, now
- to reseat the 48 plunger ball valves
- to find a set of 41 up lifter bodies
- to use spacer rings for the 41 up new plungers
- in the worst case to spend $ 800.00
Thank you all for the input.
Hilmar.

PS: still looking for a set of, or any number of 41 up lifter bodies or cam followers.

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

I sent an email but it may not have gotten to you. I checked yesterday and found that three bodies were loose in the carriers. I have in addition,  two carriers with four each in them but they have rusted to the carrier bodies. The three still had oil on them so should be usable. Let me know if you want to have me send the complete (two) rusted assemblies along with the three usable ones. The bottoms of the lifter bodies are still in good shape, so the rust that is on the "sides" shouldn't be that deep to make the bodies rattle in the carrier assemblies after they are broken loose with penetrating oil. I can hit them with Kroil again and see if I can break them loose for you.

[las39]

It seems Terrill Machine has no website. I would love to see what these spacers look like. Did I understand correctly, do they just drop inside the lifter chimney and then the plunger on top?

[harry s]

Hilmar, I have a set (16) of lifter bodies but I am not sure what year they came out of. Do you have the depth measurement for overall depth and also to the ridge at the oil port?    Harry

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

The depth to the ridge is about 0.875 on the 41 version and 1.1 on 40 version.  Overall length is identical

[Hilarius]

Harry,
in addition to what Brad Ipsen wrote about lifter body dimensions I add a picture of both kinds of lifters with measurements which Brad sent me a while ago.
I need the bottom ones, 1941-42.
If you have the right kind, please, email your price to: hs1940@t-online.de
Thanks.
Hilmar.