2nd Generation Seville Advice

[fellenzer]

Considering a second generation Seville. What should I look for in trying to find one of the rare "good" engines? What is the VIN after which the engines were to be "better?" Other pitfalls? Not a fan of the 4100 but I really like the design of the car and the variety of options that were available.

[TJ Hopland]

1980   
Standard engine was 5.7 diesel, VIN N
Optional was 6.0 DEFI, VIN 9
Mid year option 4.1 V6 4bbl, VIN 4
California gas optioned Eldorado was 5.7 EFI,  VIN 8.   I don't see that same note about the Seville but you would think since they are the same chassis that same would have applied.

1981
Same lineup same VINs even thought the 9 now included the V 8-6-4 modular displacement feature.
All engines apparently met CA emissions so the 'old' 5.7 EFI was gone. 

Both years the transmission was the 3 speed, no OD

1982
The 6.0 went away.   Standard became the 4100 VIN 8.   V6 and diesel were options.   Trans was 4 speed OD.

1983-85
V6 option went away so it was 4100 standard or optional diesel.   Diesels got pretty rare by that time, their peak was 81.   

[TJ Hopland]

I'm with you in liking that style.   If you turn out like me you will go from liking the style to loving it once you get one.   For me that is how it was when I got my 80 Eldo.   I kinda liked it when I was shopping but after I owned it I liked it even more and now don't think I could live without one.   Hit a deer with one and barely got the glass and blood cleaned up (both the deer's and mine) before I was online looking for repair parts or another car.     

On the engine front out of those choices what is the best?

My 2 cents. Listed best to worst

Best I would have to say the Buick V6.    Proven all cast iron engine.  4 bbl carb that again was a proven design in spite of having some computer controls added to it that year.   Reasonable performance for the era. 

Next would be the 80 6.0 DEFI.   Proven solid engine only down side is first year for the Digital Electronic Fuel Injection.   Lots of 1 or 2 year only electronic parts many due to issues they had with these first couple years.

Next maybe a tie with above would be the 80 California 5.7 assuming it was indeed an option.   Again proven cast iron Oldsmobile engine but not especially well understood or well supported EFI system.   This was the standard engine for the first gen Sevilles. 

Next the 8-6-4.   Same basics as the 80 6.0 DEFI engine but a few extra annoyances like oddball plastic valve covers that were known to leak when they were new and now being old become brittle and more leaky.   One year only part that has never been reproduced and can't easily be replaced. 


This leaves us with the diesel and 4100.  Tough choice there.    You will have no shortage people that are passionately against both engines and no way no how will you ever change their minds and many of them will not rest till they talk you out of both of them.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions and that is why you asked in the first place so brace yourself and take notes so can keep it all straight and then decide for yourself.   It kinda stinks when it comes to these 2 engines because when you ask for help you tend to get hit with a lot more 'those suck' rather than actual help.   

So again MY opinion based on RECENT experience, not stuff I read or what happened 30 years ago and again others feel free to share their opinions just be clear where or when they came from.    I have no doubt that there are many people here that had very bad experiences with both engines especially back in the day.   The reputations these engines have were not started by Ford or Chrysler because they were threatened, there were issues.   Both engines there did seem to be 'good' ones that slipped out.   Who knows why?   Maybe the Johnny cash theory about getting one built on a Wednesday?    Look it up if you don't know the song, he could have been onto something.   So my theory is the non Wednesday cars or engines in this case are long gone, they just didn't survive.  Some got replaced with Wednesday engines,  some got replaced with engines that were built using better materials or techniques that were developed later on.   Sure there could be a few duds surviving but chances go down the more time goes on.    That leaves is with 'good' ones left.   Good is still retaliative term but as long as you care for and operate these things for what they are / were they can still perform reasonably well.           

I have been semi daily driving 5.7 diesels for the last 6 years now and love em.   I have not had any issues that I would consider unusual for 30 year old cars.   Sure they are not for everyone and chances are good it will be more difficult to find people to work on them vs gas engines from the era so I would not recommend one to someone that knows nothing about diesels or doesn't at least know someone that knows. 

4100, I don't currently own one but do have a friend that is semi daily driving one again recently and he is happy with it.    He didn't quit driving it because it was a 4100, it was because it was an 84 Cadillac which isn't always a practical car.      I got rid of mine 20 some years ago because I believed everything I was told which other than from the salesman was all bad.   Today I would not hesitate to buy one assuming everything checks out but then look at me I love the diesel which actually had a worse rep than the 4100.

[fellenzer]

Thanks, TJ.

I'm a big boy, I can handle the criticism and screams of "run!" LOL

Beyond the engine, it's also a mix of options and color combination coupled with condition. Bottom line, if the engine fails in a car with a good body and interior, it would be worth the effort to replace it.

I'm not necessarily afraid of the 4100 and I know it isn't for the faint of heart. I have a friend in Phoenix who has an early 80s Fleetwood (I think) with that engine. It was his aunt's car which she bought new. He's got something like 150,000 miles on it now and never had a problem. I drove it a few days while I was visiting several years ago. Certainly won't break any speed records, lol.

I'm pretty good with cars so I'm looking for tips and clues of what to look for to try to tell if the engine has a chance of surviving with good care. Or, any other pitfalls of this generation Seville.

If I had my 'druthers, I'd have a '76 Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance, but, alas, it won't fit in my garage which has already been modified for my Eldorado. I can't make additional modifications without considerable expense. Given I really like the styling of the second generation Seville, I thought it was a good compromise. And, I'd like to have the tire and chrome luggage straps on the trunk. Hey, if you're going to go, you may as well go all in.

I don't imagine I'd put any more than 1,000 miles a year on it. Short trips here and there. A couple trips to the lake.

Thanks.

[TJ Hopland]

I don't think there were any really major changes to the body over the run.   They (like may early 80's cars) had huge moisture trapping issues in the rear which first seems to rot the rear body mounts off both the frame and body.   Next thing you are wondering why the rear bumper is about to fall off (core and supports are rotted out) and you notice several spots in the frame are not far behind so its safe motoring days are numbered. 

All had more or less the same 'digital' auto climate control.  Some years were one year and eldo seville only so can be tricky to support.  I think latter got a little more standard and used over more models and years so easier to support.   Maybe 'Cadillac Tim' could fill in the details there.

All had 4 wheel disc brakes.   Rear disc had the parking brake integral to the caliper which ads a lot of complex parts to a harsh environment made harsher by having the parts there in the first place.   Its very common to have stuck calipers when these things do a lot of sitting.  If you drive them regularly and do brake fluid changes regularly they are fine.    Complete caliper assemblies are reproduced today because they are popular for rear disc conversion on some mid sized cars. 

Rear 'air ride' shocks were standard.   Uses a somewhat common to GM w/ air shocks in the era electric compressor mounted under the hood.   Don't think AC makes the shocks anymore but Gabriel and Monroe make one that will work with the factory system if it still works.   Compressors seem to be reasonably reliable.   Weak point is the control module / sensor.   Its a electronic module with an arm sticking out of it mounded back near the left rear control arm.   Not sure what fails in them but it was not made to be a reparable item.  Its 'potted' if you know what that means.   Working units seem to be a fairly rare item.   Manual controls are an option but beware due to the funky geometry of the independent rear suspension the ride height is very important.   With these cars if you end up riding very low or bouncy you get rear bump steer which will freak you out the first time you experience it.   Even when you get used to it its not something you want to keep happening.    Solid axle cars with non working air systems can have issues too but nothing like these cars do.    From what I can tell the Riviera and Toronado also had this system standard so its not as easy as picking non air ride springs and shocks out of a catalog.   

There was an aluminum wheel option and they can really get stuck hard on the rears due to corrosion around the center hole in the wheel.     Wire wheel covers have a locking nut under the center cap that can be really difficult to remove without the correct 'key'.   Its a good thing to check to see if its there when looking at a car.   They are color coded so there is a decent chance of identifying the color of the nuts and ordering one online.    The early covers the wreath and crest are separate parts and only the crest comes off to access the lock.   Be gentle with them, its sort of a brittle clip that is difficult to repair if you damage em. 

Digital dashes were an option.   Guessing those can be tricky to get repaired if there are issues and seems like I have read its not easy to convert one back to analog.   If you run into one you would likely want to research your options there.

Headliners in that era aren't known to hold up well and for something so simple can they can be a huge pain to deal with.     

The electric switch portion of the trunk pull down switch seems prone to moisture issues and does not appear to ever have been reproduced which seems odd since you can buy the rest of the parts still. 

Seems to be a rule if you are going to sell one of these cars that the hood and trunk support struts can not support anything.    Be very careful when looking at these cars, maybe even bring your own stick.   I had one that didn't think anything of when I opened the hood, it felt normal so I just let go and bent over to look at the engine.   About 5 seconds later it came down fast and hard.   I could have ended up on one of those 100 ways to die tv shows if I had been standing a few inches to one side.     I can't remember if its the hood or trunk (on the eldo, seville could be different) where those struts must be used on something more modern and common because they seem to be in stock at parts stores.   The other seemed to only fit those cars and in one case went through half a dozen dusty sets from various sources and brands before I got some that were not dead from old age out of the box. 

[fellenzer]

Thanks, TJ.

I currently have an '84 Riviera convertible so I'm familiar with much of what you are talking about. I appreciate the guidance.

[RobW]

look for a diesel that was converted to an olds 350
and the diesel cars were much quieter. had more sound deadening 

[Scot Minesinger]

Do not buy a 4.1 powered Cadillac unless you plan on replacing the engine or trailering the car for show only.  If you like driving, a 4.1 is a terrible disappointment, reliability aside.  That leaves 1980, 1981 or a modified 1982-85.  I drove a 1982 4.1 powered Cadillac in 1982 just after driving my 1978 Olds Delta 88 w/350 V-8, and after the Olds the Caddy was such a let down that I will not forget after 34 years.  Plus I drove a 4.1 powered Cadillac last year - still the same - time your 0-60mph with a calendar.  People tailgating me at a red light during acceleration - crazy slow 4.1.  The 4.1 ushered in Lexus, MB, BMW and others to dominate the luxury car market in the 1990's.

[bcroe]

Look for a diesel that was converted to an Olds 350
and the diesel cars were much quieter. had more sound deadening

Right, and a 6.6L / Olds 403 also bolts right in for more power.  The advantages
of a converted diesel is a long list, properly done.  Bruce Roe

[LenInLA]

I owned a 1982 Seville from 1998 to 2002. Thought it was the most beautiful ride on the road. But could barely get it to go 50 mph on a freeway with a slight upwards slope.

Leonard Grayver

[fellenzer]

I've read that if you swap engines there are issues with digital dash, climate control and trip computer. True/false? Can it be done? I drove an '85 Eldorado convertible. It wasn't terrible. Certainly wasn't going to pass anything in a hurry.

[TJ Hopland]

Trip computer is for sure closely tied to the engine ECU.  If that goes the computer goes. 

Climate control doesn't seem to miss the ECU. I think its tie in was just for diagnostics so if you ask for diagnostics it will just just try and connect but never get any data. 

Digital dash I never had to mess with, if it ran from the ECU there could be a problem.  If it had its own 'brains' it should still work.  I would expect them to have had their own brains,  I don't think the engine ECU had enough extra power to also run the dash at that time. 

A more interesting question would be how close were the computers between the makes?   What if you took the engine and ECU out of your Riv?  Would that computer plug in and talk to the Cadillac stuff?   All the swaps I read about the goal is to get rid of all the electronics.   

There is a member here or maybe the modified board that swapped an Olds for a 4100 and accidentally found out the 4100 distributor fits the olds so he left it and the computer and somehow its apparently happy and working without some of the other sensors.   You would think it would not be working right without things like a TPS but its working for him. 

Having a full donor car would for sure make a swap easier.  The diesels didn't have any computer so everything on those would be independent of the engine.   The 79 and CA 80 5.7's I would expect were fairly independent since those ECU's were nothing like digital ones.  Everything else would have had a full engine ECU including the V6 version.

I would guess Bruce has the best combo possible, EFI 403 with a switch pitch 425 trans but he has a few years into that combo and a few custom parts.       

[bcroe]

Digital dash I never had to mess with, if it ran from the ECU there could be a problem.  If it had its own 'brains' it should still work.  I would expect them to have had their own brains,  I don't think the engine ECU had enough extra power to also run the dash at that time. 

A more interesting question would be how close were the computers between the makes?   What if you took the engine and ECU out of your Riv?  Would that computer plug in and talk to the Cadillac stuff?   All the swaps I read about the goal is to get rid of all the electronics.   

There is a member here or maybe the modified board that swapped an Olds for a 4100 and accidentally found out the 4100 distributor fits the olds so he left it and the computer and somehow its apparently happy and working without some of the other sensors.   You would think it would not be working right without things like a TPS but its working for him. 

Having a full donor car would for sure make a swap easier.  The diesels didn't have any computer so everything on those would be independent of the engine.   The 79 and CA 80 5.7's I would expect were fairly independent since those ECU's were nothing like digital ones.  Everything else would have had a full engine ECU including the V6 version.

I would guess Bruce has the best combo possible, EFI 403 with a switch pitch 425 trans but he has a few years into that combo and a few custom parts.     

Certainly the diesel version has no electronic problems with engine conversion, and
the 5.7L EFI cars had no ties to other systems.  Starting in 1980 there was a trend
to tie more and more into the ECU, but I have no experience with the details.  My
preference is to keep the systems independent, to simplify troubleshooting. 

The Riv and the Cad had different gas engines, the ECU tied to the engine type. 
Only the Cad had EFI standard then, so it could have serious swap issues. 

I used to be beholding to the trans shops, but in 74 I learned to swap a TH400 for
the much lesser trans I had most recently blown away.  Eventually all my cars got
a TH400, with switch pitch.  My 79 Toro was a problem, but I started planning it in
the 80s.  By the 90s the Toro had become a 79 Eldo, but the TH425 finally went in. 
Bruce Roe

[TJ Hopland]

ECU would be different between a 4100 and a 307 but how different?  Instead of controlling a pair of injectors its controlling a mixture solenoid which to the computer likely does not look much different than an injector so other than the software they may not be that different. Rest would appear to be pretty much the same.    Maybe the output for speedo cruise is the same?   Diagnostic link is probably the same?   

[Scot Minesinger]

If you buy a modified 1982 thru 1985 that you have thoroughly drove and tested all functions so that a prior engine swap was correct, or just buy a 1980 or 1981 you should be good.  Buying a 4.1 powered Cadillac with the idea of switching the engine will be troublesome and expensive.  Understand that this is a hobby, not an investment club, however the cost to change an engine will be prohibitive in terms of the cost to do it and value of the Cadillac thereafter. 

This hobby is fun, but we do face some challenges in the best of cars which are most often latent.  We don't generally buy rust buckets, Cadillacs that have been in an accident, Cadillacs with major issues know, and the like except for parts usually.  It seems illogical that a hobby car would be purchased with a known problem such as the 4.1 engine.  You find a few people in the CLC who tolerate the 4.1 engine, but most will not.  I think the 1982 thru mid 1980's Cadillacs would be far more collectible if Cadillac had provided a decent engine alternative to the 4.1 (instead of ever producing the 4.1).  Yah, I hate that engine and still mad with Cadillac for ever producing it.  In 1987 I bought a 1985 Caprice with the 305 V-8, which at the time was way better than any 1985 Cadillac.

[fellenzer]

I appreciate the wisdom of the group, thanks.

It will come down to the right mix of color, options, condition and price. I'm a gadget guy and I like all the options. Yes, I know, more to fix. I've seen people knock the 307, which my Riviera has, and I'm not sure I understand. At 118,000 it runs like a top, gets good gas mileage and has reasonable acceleration. It certainly won't win any speed records but it's great for my pleasure driving.

As for the Seville, I'm just really stuck on that second generation style. It's unique and it will fit in the garage. While the first gen. is a nice car, it never really hit home with me. With all due respect, I always thought it looked like a Caprice with a crest on the hood (images of the Cimarron/Cavalier). In the 12 years I've had the Riviera convertible, I've averaged about 1,500 miles a year. Given that I now have the '76 Eldorado converitble as a replacement for the Riviera I don't imagine I'd be putting any more than 5 or 600 miles a year on a second casual car. It might make an occasional trip to the lake (two and a half hours) but nothing taxing. I certainly understand the bad press on the 4100, but if I were to find one that has been maintained and is still in good condition I'd probably be okay for my needs. I'll certainly keep my eyes out for an '80 or '81 or a late '85. I have a friend in Phoenix who has an '83 Fleetwood with the 4100 and he has 150K on it. No troubles. It was his aunt's car and it's always been maintained and babied. Another friend has an '85 Seville (the later "upgraded" design engine) with 100K and runs like a top.

Much to consider and explore. Again, thanks for the advice and wisdom.

[TJ Hopland]

A agree on the overall style of the first gens.   I always assumed they were Delta 88's especially from the back.  They could have used a couple unique styling touches.

The 307's were alright.   Like the rest of the engines of the 80's if you compare them their contemporaries they are ok.  You could certainly do a lot worse in the era.   

So the Riv is gone and you have a 76 Eldo convert?   Where does the Seville fit in?   Rainy day?  4 door?

[fellenzer]

I still have the Riviera but it's for sale. I've loved it and hate to sell it, but I like the Eldorado more (miss the Rivi's options), don't have room for two convertibles. I've long wanted a '76 Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance (pillow seats and porch lights!), but it won't fit in the garage without additional major renovations. When I bought this house 20 years ago, I had to do a bump out to fit the '72 Delta 88 Royal convertible I had at the time and then modify that to fit a '75 Custom Cruiser. That's where the Eldorado sits now. I can't do the same thing to the other side without rebuilding the back of the garage and I really don't want to tackle that project. I thought the Seville was a good compromise. A late 70s Lincoln Town Car was also a consideration, but again, it won't fit.

The Seville will be an option to my daily driver, 2011 DTS Platinum, on cloudy or cold days. I'm a firm believer in driving with the top down and the AC or heat on high as appropriate. I'll drive the Eldorado or Seville until the first salt. Then not until after we've had a few heavy rains.

[TJ Hopland]

It could be worse.  You could have space for all of em.  Then what would you do?   

[fellenzer]

Don't tempt me! There was a time when I had the luxury of using neighbors' garages. Many were older and only had one car. Not so now which is why I sold the '75 Custom Cruiser which I loved for a variety of reasons. The clam shell gate was unique and you could haul full sheets of plywood with the gates closed. Perfect for hauling all my nieces for ice cream with comfortable seating for eight and it had the 455 rocket. High mileage but it was in excellent condition. It went to Sweden! Also sold my grandmother's '78 Monte Carlo Landau. Sorry to see that go, but it just didn't make sense to keep it. I took my driver's license test on that car, took it to my senior prom, washed it weekly when I was in high school. It had the 305 and was very peppy but it had a bench seat and it just wasn't very comfortable for my 6'2" frame. It was in excellent condition with only 38,000 miles when I sold it a year ago. It had many options which was unusual for a Chevy of the era. My aunt and grandmother both bought new cars in '78 with my aunt getting the Olds Cutlass. Other than an FM radio it didn't have any options. Unfortunately, no one in the family wanted to keep it. My aunt sold her Cutlass last year as well. Sorry to see it go, too. Also low miles and excellent condition.