472 Timing jumping, car bogs some of the time

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

Take a picture of it if you haven't buttoned it up yet. This way yu can use it for refrence if necessary, have it on your phone for bragging rights and more importantly- post it here!

Seriously tho, I take a lot od pictures so I have them if necessary. The camera can see th in ngs that I cant.
Jeff

[WTL]

I figured out what was wrong, and instead of letting this thread die, maybe it can be instructive for someone using the search feature sometime, so...I am going to own up to 1 mistake that cost me a couple days of my life.

On the cloyes oem set, the mark on the cam gear is very, very small.  Just a nondescript dimple really, and on the one I got it was right next to another dimple which was probably a manufacturing defect.  Made it very easy to overlook.

All this is to say I was way, way off...because I was lining the sprocket up with the dowel hole on the cam.   So when unburnt gas flew out of the carb, there was a reason. 

Since I never got it started previously, Im thinking I got lucky and didnt screw anything up like a valve.  Did a compression test the other day and was holding 110 - 130 in most (with the faulty valve timing).  Did a single compression test on #1 today, got over 180. 

Tapped the starter, and yes it starts, easily.  Will do a compression test on each cylinder tomorrow, as well making darn sure that the oil is circulating.  Gonna ease it back. 

[Bobby B]

I am going to own up to 1 mistake that cost me a couple days of my life.

My Brother,
If that's all you wasted in your lifetime working on cars (or going back and re-doing things), then you obviously have the wrong hobby because you're a genius of some sort....The only way you learn, is to make mistakes. Just don't do it again, because then it's called something else!    You can waste your time doing just about anything, if that's how you're going to look at it. My wife knows where I am all the time, and I'm not pissing my money away on something that I don't enjoy. Make up your mind now, because cars aren't fun, they're a Challenge. And I accept it, no matter how frustrating it can sometimes get. This is what separates the Men from the Boys..... 

P.S. By the way, You did Good.....

                                             Bobby

[Scot Minesinger]

WTL,

This would be a success in my book.  Now you can answer these posts.  You probably helped a lot of people on this final resolution.  It sure is great when you had the engine all apart, you turn the key and it fires right up.

On the 472/500 Cadillacs I have changed 4 timing chains, three rear main seals, one valve job, one total engine reseal, 3 trans reseals, ten starters (at least), 5 power steering pumps, four front suspension restores, four rear suspension restores, four body mount bushing replacements, several cruise control restores (the 1967 (429) and 68 are the hardest), and a dozen climate control restores.  Every day learn something new by doing.

You must have kind of had a feeling when you first did the job, to go back to something like that.  That happens to me as well sometimes on other issues.  My way of doing things is sometimes I over think, and might have that front engine cover off for two weeks if that is what it took to get it right. 

Enjoy your Cadillac, but don't carried away with the new found power!

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

Nice job, and thanks for the follow up post. I hate when people let threads die without a resolution.

I have done a few doozies that I have posted here. Kind of feel better just getting it out in the open and off my chest. And, just maybe, it will help someone else in the same boat.  just do a search under me and you will see what I mean

Just to point out, this may have been a good reason to take pictures of your job. I have had issues where I have had to go back to my picture. You could have done that to verify all was aligned properly before you buttoned it up ( I certainly don't mean that in a nasty -you should done this-kind if way). It just may be something to try on your next project.
Congrats on the "fix"!!
Jeff

[john henderson]

Good news! I have had projects similar to yours.Sometimes I know to walk away and come back to it later cuz I,m missing something "dumb".The trick is to try to keep the frustration in check,which is easier said than done.If it makes you feel better,I once replaced the clutch in my Ford 4x4 ,had it almost completely back together and noticed the dust shield between the bell housing and engine block was still leaning quietly against the side of my tool cabinet......fun with cars!

[Aaron Hudacky]

WTL,

Thank you for sharing your experience.  I'll definitely be referencing this thread when I replace my timing chain and gears. 

Aaron

[cadillac73]

Blowing back up through the carb tells me your ignition timing is off.  Does it buck hard on the starter?  Have you tried a compression test since you got it back together?  Geez.  When you roll the engine to top center for #1 cyl do you feel compression on the finger?  Good luck, Larry

Hello!  I have a question about what you mean by "buck hard on the starter"...I have been trying to diagnose my starting issue for months and I think I have timing issues as well.  Wondering if they are related.

Thanks!

[TJ Hopland]

Bucking starter would usually be a very irregular cranking speed where it may even momentarily stop.   It will act that way with a known good battery, cables, and starter. 

[WTL]

Yeah, my issue at the point he asked about was the cam and crank gears were well out of phase, set by myself, who erroneously positioned them.

It's possible my experience is valid, but at that point my cam timing really was off. 

The simple advise is that timing gear, if you don't do it, is going to creep in as an explanation for all sorts of various engine troubles, and so it's probably better to just do it as soon as you can.  Since getting it right, my engine has done well.  The chain wasnt too too lose, but I think it was a problem still.

[cadillac73]

Bucking starter would usually be a very irregular cranking speed where it may even momentarily stop.   It will act that way with a known good battery, cables, and starter.

Ah HA!  That's what mine does!!  Cranks once, stops, cranks a few more times then starts.

So this is perhaps related to the timing?  Based on past and current symptoms, I'm pretty sure I jumped a tooth.  Up until a couple of weeks ago, I kept having to adjust the timing every week or so, and then she went down hard on the way to a car show.  Now she will start, but won't stay running unless I feather the gas, and even then sometimes stalls. Checked timing, and rotor is pointing to #3, or somewhere between #1 and #3.

Bought a Cloyes timing set, and am prepared to dig into that this weekend, unless anyone has any other ideas...?

[TJ Hopland]

Loose distributor hold down or intermittently sticking weights is the only other thing that could cause the timing to apparently jump around on these engines.   Other engines you could have a shot rubber ring in the balancer so the outer section that has the timing mark on it sort of floats on the crank.   Most of the 472-500-425 engines didn't have a rubber  balancer.   Seems like I read that maybe 68-69 did but I'm not positive.