Rebuilt 1964 429 Won't run !!!!

[Jeepers Creepers]

That engine will not run on those compressions.
You need to do a "leakdown test" immediately on the engine to determine the problem.

I can't help but think, you have something going very wrong there. I've just rebuilt a 429 engine a couple of months ago, so I do know where you are coming from.

Trying to start it and make it run on those compressions is going to be causing damage.

Go to my restoration/make-over thread, I've detailed the engine rebuild a fair bit, including the best way to break-in a camshaft and lifters. 

[russ austin]

Did you deck the heads or block at all?  The push rods may be too long then.
But, I'm thinking that the cam is toast, as you said you idled the car and did not break in the cam. How long did you let the engine idle before it started to leak coolant?

[m-mman]

I will throw it out here because no one else has mentioned it and I too think your problem is somewhere in the basics.
Yeah the compression is strange but I agree with you that it ran when you shut it off. . . . it SHOULD restart again.

Timing???
How did you replace the pertronix/points?
Did you remove the distributor? Some people do and in your frustration it might not have been replaced correctly(?)

Crank it over to TDC and verify that the rotor/distributor is also on #1.

[rustytractor]

Engine only ran for a few minutes at fast idle (prob 1500 rpm-ish) before it was shut off. The pertronix was replaced with the distributor in situ, new points, condenser, coil. There's plenty of spark so I doubt that's the problem. Timing checked, checked again and rechecked again and again and again.....

I'm not sure if the heads and block were decked - it was a while back with quite a few various engine rebuilds in between. I know the guy in the machine shop so never get bills for the work he does, usually I make notes of what was done but typically in this instance I didn't.

I've had little time to look into this further so far BUT I dipped and smelt the oil which has a strong petrol odour so is definitely contaminated, no doubt the bores were washed clean of oil when this occurred.

I'll drain and replace the oil, remove and clean the plugs, recheck the timing and try again with fresh fuel as soon as time permits.

I've never had anything like this happen before, the whole thing is a PITA if I'm honest and I needed to walk away from it for a while.

[Jeepers Creepers]

1,500 RPM is too low.

Go straight to 2,000.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

The reason for going to a minimum of 2,000 RPM (I go to 2,500 RPM), is to allow the cam lobes and Lifter faces to receive good lubrication.

These parts only receive lubrication from the excess oil that is thrown off the crankshaft, after it has lubricated the connecting rods, and as it flies around, it comes into contact with the cam and lifters.

The high engine speed also creates an internal oil circulation mist that coats everything that oil galleries cannot.   Like the underside of the pistons at the cylinder wall, which also assists in cooling the cylinders and pistons.

Bruce.

[Jeepers Creepers]

The reason for going to a minimum of 2,000 RPM (I go to 2,500 RPM), is to allow the cam lobes and Lifter faces to receive good lubrication.

These parts only receive lubrication from the excess oil that is thrown off the crankshaft, after it has lubricated the connecting rods, and as it flies around, it comes into contact with the cam and lifters.

The high engine speed also creates an internal oil circulation mist that coats everything that oil galleries cannot.   Like the underside of the pistons at the cylinder wall, which also assists in cooling the cylinders and pistons.

Bruce.

To be honest, I did ours at over 2,000rpm, but most folks struggle with 2,000 rpm, so i went conservative on the suggestion.
I used some red cam and lifters break-in stuff, looked like tomato sauce and STP combined. 

If it was me, i'd still be doing a leak-down test on the engine in question.
You are missing compression on so many levels, you really need to find out why and where.
A couple of hours work and you have a base line on what to do next.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

To be honest, I did ours at over 2,000rpm, but most folks struggle with 2,000 rpm, so i went conservative on the suggestion.

The reason most folks struggle is they cannot stand the noise.

With my race engines, I would warm them up, then a few blips to 7,500 RPM, and pop the 'chute.

Never blew an engine.   Maybe I wasn't trying hard enough.

Bruce.

[rustytractor]

So after many months of having a) leave it alone b) let’s have another go at getting it running c) WTF is going on d) repeat a-d we eventually pulled the engine, stripped it down and finally have the answer 😫

The problem is all due to a duff set of rings.

The 429 pistons have equal size ring grooves for the upper and lower compression rings and the rings are supposed to be the same size - the uppers are marked so you know which goes where and we fitted them correctly.

For some reason when we took the pistons out the rings were all stuck. It’s hard to understand this exactly but the new pistons had green paint on the skirts and some of this paint had come off and jammed the ring grooves. When the rings were freed and removed and the grooves cleaned out the oil and lower compression rings spun freely but the uppers didn’t. If we test fitted a lower compression ring in either the lower or upper compression ring groove it spun freely but if we tried an upper compression ring in either groove it stuck. It’s slightly thicker.

This obviously wasn’t a problem the first time we ran the engine as it fired straight up but for some reason they stuck in on the second attempt. The green paint jamming the other ring grooves is another thing altogether - maybe it would have burnt off had the engine continued to run but in future I’ll remove any manufacturers paint from Pistons before assembling an engine (unless it’s supposed to be there??)

The pistons, rings and all other engine rebuild components were purchased from one suppliers (Falcon Global I think) so you’d assume everything would be compatible but this was around 18 months ago and I have no idea what make the rings are so it’s not worth chasing the supplier as I’m sure that’d be a waste of time.

Everything else in the engine is fine so I’ve ordered a set of Mahle/Clevite rings from Rock Auto which should arrive next week.

Watch this space.......

[tturley]

Did you have throttle open while testing compression?

[cadillacmike68]

Good luck with it Russel. I hope it fires right up and that's the end of it.

Now I'm wondering if my 1968 got a proper run-in when it was overhauled. I do know that the shop used an electric drill at 2-3000rpm before it was even mounted back in the car to get the oil well circulated. That should have taken care of the cam lobes & lifters.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Mike,
The motor has to be run at ca.2500 RPM for (I do it for) 30 minutes to allow the lifters and cam to break on and mate.
Greg Surfas

[cadillacmike68]

Greg,

I believe that is what he did. Engine was completely assembled and he used a drill to spin it up. Saves running it with gas, etc. and gets it all lubed up internally.

It's been running fine. Belts are a bit  loose and a steering / suspension clunk in front left, but those are not engine issues.

[35-709]

Spinning the pump with a drill motor makes sure the oil pump is primed and gets oil circulating throughout the engine, it does not break-in the cam and lifters!  As Greg said, the engine must be run at approx. 2500 RPM for about 30 minutes to properly break-in the cam and lifters. 
The rebuilder of the Chevy small block I just put in an "X" brand car made it a point to state that without a 2000/2500 RPM break-in engine run for 30 minutes, the warranty was null and void.  Same with the rebuilt 472 from MTS that I put in my '73 Caribou.

[cadillacmike68]

I'll have to check with them then, because that's about 70MPH if driving on the roads. The re-builder is knowledgeable and I had no issue with the cam or lifers on my rebuild 12 years ago. That cam is still in the engine. I don't think he would have omitted this, but I'll verify.

Do new cars require this as well??

[Dan LeBlanc]

If that cam is still in the engine after the rebuild, no break-in required.  Only a cam change necessitates this step.

[35-709]

 

Do new cars require this as well??

Newer cars with roller tappets (as opposed to flat tappet engines we are discussing here) do not require this type of break-in.

[Roger Zimmermann]

In the seventies, I worked for GM in Switzerland. At that time, there was still an assembly factory for Opel models made with CKD kits. I don't know if the engines were started at the factory before shipment; at the end of the line, the cars were started the usual way and went away.
Maybe people who worked in an engine factory can tell if that process to run the engine at 2500 RPM for half an hour was applied to every engine. I have an hard time to believe it, but who knows...

[russ austin]

The reason the V8 engine needs to be run at higher RPM on break in, is to sling oil onto the cam.  There is no designated cam oiler, other than the crank flinging oil at higher RMP.  The cam will not get the proper lubrication at break in, nd will suffer premature wear.

[2manycars]

As far as newer cars' engine break-in, I can address that for a Corvette (2001 model). The Canadian plant that built the LS1 engines for these cars spun them on an electric powered fixture, with full lubrication. (They were not run under their own power). I don't know for how long. With the LS6 version that went into the Z06 model, those were actually run-in under their own power.

Way back when Ford was still factory rebuilding Y-Block V8s, they broke them in on an electric fixture, pretty much the same way GM did with the LS1. Those had solid flat tappets in them. No hydraulics.